₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Mr_Anony]You know what, fine. We have dragged this conversation long enough. Let us play it like this. I'll pick the two points you raised up.

Gay marriage, good or evil?
Slavery, good or evil?[/quote]Are you asking for my opinion?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Anyway,@cyrexx, mazaje and macdaddy. It is interesting how you guys all bond together to defend an obviously silly statement. The unity in your atheist faith religion cult brotherhood is adorable.[/quote]What is silly in the statement?. . .Do you not disbelieve in the existence of other gods?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]My friend your "real world" is just a world where you have chosen to reject God. When you say something is relative, the question arises, what is it relative to? If everything is relative to everything else, there is no true way to ascribe value to them.

It is either you are mazaje or you are not. Your identity doesn't change because a million people decide to define you in a million different ways.[/quote]Reject which god? In the real world i live in your god is one out of many others, in fact majority of the people that live in the real world do not believe or accept him. . .Morality is relative to society, because humans always define what is moral and what isn't. . .That is how it is in the real world we live in, not in your subjective christian world view that does not even agree with the reality of the world we live in. . .In the real world we live in morality is created and established by men, that is why it varies from place to place and depends on the period in history that is why gay marriage is a good thing in some parts of the world and a bad thing in others, or why slavery used to be a good thing back in the days but is now considered as an evil thing.. . .In your own make belief world view morality it is dependent on some elusive jewish deity. . .

False, your god is not the only god, there are numerous gods all with evidence for their existence and revelations they have given their follower. . .No body is defining any god in millions of ways, rather many gods have revealed themselves to different people all over the world. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Fair enough, a man is free to give himself whatever meaning he chooses to his life. i won't begrudge you that. It fits withing your worldview.

What doesn't fit within your worldview is to say that good and evil are defined by humans because since all human beings differ and disagree on what is good and what is not, then we have a multitude of different goods and evils and this would imply that no legal system made by man can possibly be fair in the true sense because what it calls good is another's evil and vice versa, and no man can possibly condemn or commend anyone because every action will both be good and evil at the same time and in the same sense, this renders good and evil meaningless.[/quote]It doesn't make good or evil meaningless, it just makes them relative. . .I have shown you that in the real world we live that is what is obtainable. . .Good and evil have ALWAYS been defined by humans that is why it varies from society to society in the real world that we are living in. . .

ea7: How strange, when mormons have visions christians label it wishful thinking.

When muslims have visions christians try to use natural explanations to explain such visions or label it as wishful thought, but some how god inspires them and because they pray every day is reason enough for knowing that their god exist. . .Do these people really read what they type before posting at all?. . .I laugh in koine greek. . .

InesQor: This is like saying:

We're all homeless; a tramp only has one less house than you do.

Does this make sense to you?

This analogy is completly senseless. . .Firstly, we are NOT all homeless, and even if we are, nobody is claiming his/her homelessness to be true while another person's homelessness to be false, but YOU as a person believe in just one god out of the many that exist while claiming that all the other gods do not exist. . .You completely disbelieve in the existence of allah and vishu for example but believe in yahweh. . .How then does that compare to we are all homeless nonsense you dropped here . . .If you have to make analogies make analogies that make sense pls. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony][b]I can also tell you i know God exists because I pray everyday and He inspires me everyday but you will reject that. [/b]You do not know your senses are working properly (even if there were 20 of them). You just trust them without question, you will never know if you really exist and you are are not a figment of someone's imagination somewhere. You just take these things for granted.
But yet you feel authorized to judge all existence based on a tool you can't truly account for.[/quote]So your god exist because you pray and he inspires you everyday?. . . .I laugh in koine greek. . .

Martian: Anony, please describe the "supernatural" world where your god lives. If he lives there that is. You know, the place where your "soul" came from.

He has already described it. . . . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Ok Martian, It appears you have finally pushed me to the wall especially with mazaje's laughter. So here goes;

Quite simply, the supernatural transcends the natural, It is an immaterial realm (in the sense that it is not defined by physical matter). It also isn't limited by space and time as we know them. I believe that man is a supernatural being in a natural body and that the inner-man (the soul) cannot be expressed in terms of space, time and matter. It is because there is a supernatural God that we have the miracle called the universe or any meaning to our existence. Satisfied now?

I know the next thing you'll want to do is to pester me to explain it in physical terms.
But this will not work until you can tell me objectively how your physical senses are the ultimate tool for evaluation.

I'll live you with a little parable to explain what I mean. Assuming we created a virtual world/universe software much like ours containing free-willed sentient individuals and ran it on the the intelligence of a supercomputer.
This created world will obey the rules we have coded into it. the units for measurement will be bytes of information. They will never be able to truly understand mass and space and time in the true sense i.e. physicality would elude them.

Some will say that there is no such thing as physical, they will be wrong and foolish because they are judging all existence based upon their limited senses (which we coded into them).

Others will say there is probably a physical, they would be wise because even though they don't know for sure, they are not writing of the possibility (they are acknowledging their limitations)

Others will say there is definitely a physical, these would be right even though they describe it in different ways, however in their descriptions of the physical, it is either one of them is telling the truth or all of them are lying. there cannot be multiple truths

Moral of the story: We can only truly know God by revelation. And to me, Jesus Christ is God's revelation of Himself, He is the perfect man and the perfect example upon which I base all morality and value.

I am sure we've had this conversation before.[/quote]

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Lol Niflheim, my apologies but you are ranting like a child. I can easily tell you that all the examples you mentioned are not Christians because they are not following Christ.
If you say there is no God, then you must provide another basis for morality. It is from that basis of morality that you can now go ahead and make your judgment.
If you don't provide this basis or you claim that morality is subjective, then it means that even the mere action of evaluating good and evil on your part is hypocritical as it doesn't represent what you claim to believe.
You simply can't have it both ways, You can't say existence really has no meaning but then go ahead and give a meaning to your life.[/quote]You have been making this bogus claim over and over again. . .The basis for morality in the REAL world is society, men chose to decide what is moral or immoral that is why in the real world morality varies from place to place and is always evolving. . . .Humans chose what they term as moral or immoral that is why in the real world morality varies from place to place example gay marriage is seen as a good thing in some societies and considered as evil in some, polygamy is considered to be a good thing an encouraged in some societies while it is tagged as a crime and a felony in some other societies, some societies still believe witches are bad and are to be punished while others don't. . .You are yet to show how morality is objective in the real world, the fact that good and bad depends on the society you live in and period in time shows that mean society determines what is good and what is bad, 1000 years ago there was nothing wrong with slavery, it was encouraged, when it was your good was its advocate, but now it isn't, when genocide was not seen as a bad thing your god was also its advocate, if Moses, Joshua, Jehu, Ezekail were alive today they will NOT be revered as propehts, they will be tagged as war criminals. . .The source of human morality is the society. . .That is the reality of the world we live in. . .Not your subjective christian world view that has nothing to do with the reality of the world we live in. . .

Martian: It always fall apart when they are confronted and asked to give a coherent description.

Always, they talk about satan as if he is your next door neighbor, ask them to describe satan then you begin to hear all sort of things. . . .Funny. . .

Martin I love how you are handling Anony. . . .He comes with this confidence of an elusive supernatural world, now that he has been asked to describe it he is applying the same old tactics. . . .I laugh in Aramaic. . . .

EbuksAllison7: mr anony is so smart...not

LOL!. . . .I actually thinks he is someone I know already. . . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]You are trying to force your "reality" on me. This is not acceptable. You are claiming that what you think is real for you must be real for me, sorry it doesn't work that way.[/quote]The reality of the world we live in, not my reality as a person. . .

The point is that in your reality, you will always be a hypocrite because anytime you judge something as morally right or wrong and expect another person to agree with you, you will immediately be acting from my worldview where morals are objective.

In the real world where we live, morality varies from place to place and is dependent on period in time. . .In the real world morality is not objective that is why polygamy is acceptable to in some societies and is not acceptable in others, female circumcision is acceptable in some societies and seen as a crime by others, killing people or punishing them for unbelief is accpetable in some societies and not in others, g[i]a[/i]y marriage is acceptable in some society as a good thing and in some it is an evil act, copral punishment for kids is acceptable in some societies as a good thing and seen as an evil act in others. . .Doctor assisted suicide for people with terminal sickness is accountable and seen as a good thing in some societies but wrong in others. . .That is the REALITY of the world we live in. . .All moral codes are man made. . .In the real world morals are developed culturally be it religious, political or socially, morality has nothing to do with any god. . . .You keep talking about objective morality but you have FAILED to show how it works in the real world we are living in. . .I on the other hand have shown you that in the real world we live in morality is subjective. . .

Anytime you condemn any society as evil either past or present, you will also be making a meaningless statement because there is no true good and evil therefore you cannot rightfully condemn anything.

Once there is a consensus I can condemn any society, after all even under you objective morality infanticide, looting and ra[i]p[/i]e are all justifiable as punishment for some elusive sin that makes sense to you alone. . .

Even when you try to condemn the actions of my God, you will be saying nonsense because there is no standard from which you judge morality so you cannot rightfully judge God.

There is a standard and that standard is set by humans based on their environment and point in history, I am judging your god and his actions based on the morality of my time and the society i live in, since i have stated that my morality is based on the laws written and accepted by the society i live in. . .

In the same way it also implies that no matter what you do, you can never be rightfully judged in your reality. You can decide to ra[i]p[/i]e plunder villages and murder people as long as you can evade punishment, you would be justified.
In your world, morality is meaningless and does not exist.

In the reality of the world we live in laws are set by humans and I have to abide by the laws that have been set, what ever the law of the land says is right or wrong I must abide by it. If i live in a society that says eating pork is evil for example, i must abide by it because the society says it is. . .My morality is based on what ever the society defines as right or as wrong and that is the reality of the world we live in. . .I keep saying when slavery was right your god was its champion. . .

In my worldview, morality is subject to God and objective to me therefore I must live my life in a certain way irrespective of which society I live in, I live by a higher law (God's nature) and that is the law I must abide by.

In the world we live in, morality is not subject to any single god because there are many different gods with many different followers. . .Morality is set through consensus by the society mostly through law makers, religious leaders etc. . .The world we live in agrees more with me than you. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]We are dancing around in circles. You see, I don't recognize allah, he doesn't exist in my reality. In my reality, there is only one supreme creator and law giver Jehovah, and there can only be one God hence a a universal right and wrong exists.
In your reality on the other hand, there are multiple law givers and none is supreme, how then can you know for sure that anything is truly right or wrong?[/quote]In reality nothing is truly right or truly wrong. . .Everything is determined by the society you find your self living in, after all when slavery was acceptable at a point in time your god was telling people how to sell their daughters into slavery. . .That is why you can not go to Qatar and be drinking in public but you can do that in Denmark. Yahweh is NOT the only god that exist in reality, vishnu and allah also exist and you must deal with them in the reality we live in. . .Your failure to recognize allah does not mean that billions do not recognize him, to over 1.5 billion people he is their reality. . .So the true reality am talking about is very different from your own subjective reality. . .In the real world we live in, morality varies from place to places and is constantly evolving. . .In the real world morals are developed culturally be it religious, political or socially, morality has nothing to do with any god. . . .Morality must be learnt and all moral values came about through experimentation. . .Humans had to teach themselves that slavery is wrong, muder is wrong and pillage is wrong. . .A simple reading of your bible will show you the evolution of morality. . .Incest was acceptable to your god(Abraham married his sister) at a time before it became unacceptable, slavery was acceptable, genocide etc. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I don't see any problem with objective morality, "the if God changes his mind..." is your own invention. My argument stands on the premise that God's nature is unchanging.[/quote]Only that the bible proves you wrong. . .A simple rreading of it shows a god whose nature or interest was always changing. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Genocide, slavery, killing of "innocent" children are wrong, but in the case of the bible, they are a punishment for sin so they are justified.

For instance, hanging a man until he is dead is wrong but in the case of punishing a criminal, it is justified.

If God is supreme judge and the wages of sin is death according to His law then He is justified in punishing sin by death. The executioner in the person of the man who did the actual killing is absolved of murder.

If the same executioner kills another man when the judge has not sanctioned it, then it is extra-judicial killing which is murder

God as supreme judge would have been wrong if He was partial but the bible shows that the israelites were also killed and enslaved when they committed sin so again, God in this case is justified.[/quote]You have just proven my point that morality is subjective in reality. . .In the case of the bible they may be justified but in the world we live in and with our present moral intuitions which have evolved a lot they are not justifiable. . .During the time of Moses, ra[i]p[/i]e, killing of babies, looting, slavery were all right based on the life, culture and time in history, you are only trying to justify those crimes as some elusive punishment. . .After all the muslim jihadist are also write because unbelievers deserves to be punished because in the koran says that allah dislikes them are they are deserve his wrath. . .I am talking about the reality we see around us not your make belief reality that is based on the writings and culture of prehistoric jews that lived and tried to justify their murderous and pillaging acts long ago under some elusive god. . .In reality morality is not objective and you have just proven what I have been saying all along. If all those atrocities in the bible are justified then the jihadist are also justified because they are dishing out justice to those that violate the laws of allah the creator of the universe and mankind. .

@ Anony are slavery, genocide, killing of innocent children, ra[i]p[/i]e and looting objective wrong? If they are, then way do we have your god commanding people to do them in the bible?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]@mazaje,

if our morality is subjective as you claim, this would mean that we cannot possibly define anything as good or evil outside a given culture.
Nazi Jew-killers will be morally right no? Serial rapists too would be morally right as long as the law does not punish them.
In your worldview, one country can potentially condemn all members of the red cross to death because saving lives is evil to her and the red cross will automatically be evil. and the next day she can reward all members of the red cross with gold mansions and the red cross will immediately become good.
I am afraid but this reality of yours is senseless.[/quote]Only that this reality am talking about is the reality of your own BIBLE and alleged word of God. . .The same men you call prophets and whom your honor are nothing but war criminals going by today's standard, If Moses, Jehu, Joshua etc were alive today they will called war criminals. . .When genocide and looting was acceptable(at a point in it it was acceptable) YOUR god and his prophets were its champion. . .You are here trying to justify all the genocide in the bible as some kind of elusive punishment, you are even trying to justify the murder of babies as command by your god as a kind of punishment, the fact that the irony escapes you is what i find ridiculous. . . .If Hitler was wrong then so was Moses, Joshua, Jehu, Ezekiel and all muderious prohets of your god who went about rap[i]i[/i]ng, stealing and killing others because they worshiped other gods. . .This my friend is what you have been trying to justify since by claiming the others were being punished. . .Punished according to some standard you alone understands. . .What is the difference btw Moses and Hitler? Why honor one and vilify the other?. . . .I repeat when slavery was acceptable by the people, your god was even telling people to sell their daughters into slavery. . . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Well, you are entitled to your opinions but facts remain facts.[/quote]Sure, it is my opinion but i still maintain that it is not a fact that kids are born with a complete sense of morality, the fact that parents spend a lot of time telling kids not to take things that do not belong to them for example shows that something is lacking in the study. . . .Here are some comment from other readers comments that I feel question the validity of the study. . .

"First off, Rob, If the fruit of knowledge made Adam lie we wouldnt be in this mess. We lie cause look what happens when we don't! : ) What's scary is that Yale keeps hiring child 'experts' who know nothing about children. Read Blooms 7pg article that proves Matt/Marks conclusion. Children who were 'not calm, uninterested, not alert' (ie. 'improper' nurturing) were omitted from t he experiments. Not to mention parents who provide neglectful/abusive environments are highly unlikely to bring their kids to Yale to be studied. Bloom says the kids were 1 year /18 mos in the experiments; although, unlike Bloom, i do believe children are capable of learning before 6 mos. My favorite part is when his own kid mimics (imitation skills..typical child dev.) the nanny's fake frown. Bloom calls it empathy. If the kid was actually empathizing he would have been wrong cause she was just playing and faking it. ps. society (vs.parents) plays a HUGE role in 'maladaptive' behaviors."

"This research bears no relavance to a "moral" compass. I have a little boy (now 14 months) and from about 4 or 5 months he was clearly capable of working out things that were useful to him (his big sister - gives him food, toys etc) and things that were not (our dog - gives him nothing). The application of this knowledge does not show any moral ability, you could just have accurately run this article as "babies "can be selfish" from 6 months"

"Is this test really about our inbuilt moral compass? All it seems to prove is that babies can tell helpful behaviour from unhelpful behaviour which would be essential as a survival mechanism in any species. I think there are creationist religious undertones in this story which are not demonstrated by this testing".

On this point, I will not argue further with you not because you are right but because we would be making subjective arguments with no way to know for sure. From a christian viewpoint however, evil is still evil even if one blunts his/her conscience to it. Morality must not be tied to our feelings. True morality must stand on it's own and must be divorced from individual perceptions.

I agree with this, my point is that morality in reality is subjective because it depends on the time in history when you were born and your surrounding culture. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I have dealt with this before on this thread, What parents teach their children is societal norms. Recent studies show that babies as young as 6 months old actually have a sense of morality http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275892/Were-born-moral-Babies-tell-good-evil-months.html[/quote]I disagree with this study because if it is true then parents will not spend a lot of time teaching their kids the difference between right and wrong. . .Your statement is very false, parents do not teach their kids societal norms but basic moral values. . . .if you have been around parents with kids you will notice that the parents teach the kids that it is wrong to tell lies, wrong to carry a child's toy that is not yours. . .and wrong to beat up another child just because you are bigger than that child, parents spend a lot of time teaching their kids that. . .I disagree with the research because if it is true then parents will not need to spend a lot of time teaching their kids the difference btw right and wrong, the fact that parents spend a lot of time doing that renders the research false. . .

Practicing open marriage and seeing nothing wrong with polygamy does not automatically justify it morally.
You may disagree with this but it is not possible to be in love with more than one person at the same time. Mind you I didn't say lust but actually being in love.

It is very possible to be inlove with two people at the same time. . .Go ask the polygamist with two wives. . .

When two people are in love, they mutually want to be exclusive to each other and that is why people get jealous if their partner "cheats" This jealousy will still exist even if they are in a polygamous or open marriage relationship. What is even more interesting is that this form jealousy is not laden with guilt as would be seen in covetous jealousy

False, these are actually conditional, a lady that grew up in a polygamous society that has been taught that there is nothing wrong with polygamy might not posses this jealousy. . . .Her upbringing and indoctrination about polygamy will do away with such jealous feelings. . .Same with the parents that used to happily sacrifice their twin daughters believing that they were evil back in the says. . .They felt no pain because they did it happily. . .That feeling of grief has been taking away by indoctrination and societal way of life. . .

tbaba1234: Key word: 'Usually translated'.... but that is inaccurate- Not all translation are correct...

Not all unbelievers hide, deny or cover the truth: The second line is more accurate...

I an

Unbelievers reject god, no?. . .

tbaba1234: Wrong, a kafir is not an unbeliever....

A better term is a disbeliever....

The meaning of the word kafir is 'to hide' or 'to reject' truth... like a farmer who buries seeds...

Disbeliever and unbeliever have almost the same meaning. . .

tbaba1234: I have given the meaning; but we are free to believe what we want....

You have given your own concocted meaning. . .From wikipedia. . .

Kafir (Arabic: كافر‎ kāfir, plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic term used in a Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as "unbeliever", "disbeliever" or "infidel". The term refers to a person who rejects God or who hides, denies, or covers the "truth".

okeyxyz: I'm not even talking about an event like that, someone might attribute it to luck. I'm talking about an event being predicted and happening as stated, or a healing by command, both of which i'd actually experienced(ie: somebody predicted an event regarding me, on another occasion somebody healed me ).

Healed you of what? blindness?. . .Some one predicted what about you?. . .Most predictions I have come to know are vague and when things close or similar to what had been predicted happen believers all go gaga. . .

tbaba1234: I can give you dictionary references if you want... kaffir is an arabic word...

The Quran never talks about punishment for the one who has not heard about Islam... In Islam theology, that person will be tested by God on the last day to determine his destination... The Quran talks of those in hell:

‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8]

The prophet talks about those who do not hear this message: There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah. The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan)

They will not be punished;

This position of islamic theology is that one who dies without hearing anything of Islam will not be punished; If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell.

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him.

What are you on about?. . .Kaffir simply means an unbeliever, what exactly is all this long epistle all about?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]In my worldview, God by nature is way too holy and abhors sin of any kind. God's law is written in our hearts and this is our conscience and it is a mechanism that makes us feel guilt when we do wrong and joy when we do right. No one teaches us these things.[/quote]False, if this is true, then why to parents spend a lot of time teaching their children the difference btw right and wrong?. . .Which of god's law is written in the hearts of the ancient mayans or ancient cannibalistic tribe of australia for example?. . .

We are not born with an idea of commensurate penalty. This is what comes from society. Evil is evil and good is good irrespective of how much or how little we punish or reward it.
For instance adultery/cheating on ones spouse is wrong by default anywhere you go, humans by nature are monogamous and want exclusivity with their spouses, marriage is a legal agreement that helps solidify this nature of ours. Now there are different levels of punishments for adultery in different places and according to how permissive it is, we train our conscience whether to take it seriously or not, this doesn't mean that adultery is ever morally right.

False, some people believe in open marriage and it is quite common in some places, they see nothing wrong with it. . .Humans are NOT monogamous, polygamy is very common in many parts of the world today, monogamy is fairly recent in human history. . .

okeyxyz: it's easy to say, but how do you persuade somebody who'd just witnessed or experienced a miracle healing or miraculous event?? some people's faith come by mere believe & logic, some people's faith come by an actual experience.

Many miracoulus events happen to every body both believers and unbelievers alike. . .I know an atheist friend who had an accident with a group of christians in nigeria who prayed for for their god to guide and protect them before we embarked on a journey, they had a accident along the way and he was the only person that came out unscathed, they sustained very injuries, one was even paralyzed. . .Personal experience are subjective and of no value in the real sense. . .Miracles are make belief. . .Clear cut miracles like god healing amputees and restoring their amputated limbs never happen. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]What you have just described is a consequence and not a moral law. You are repulsed at the punishment for rape and not that rape itself breaks God's law.
I'll show you what I mean:
If Nigerian law says stealing is wrong and the punishment for stealing 5 naira is 40 years in prison, I am not repulsed by the law against theft, however I may be repulsed that the punishment is 40yrs in prison
If on the other hand, Nigerian law says stealing is right and if you steal 5 naira you get 40 years in paradise, then I am repulsed at such a law for condoning stealing. the consequence in itself is not repulsive in this case[/quote]The consequence it self is part of the law. . .Retributions are parts of the law of a society. . .In this case marrying the victim itself is part of the law even though its a punishment. . .

The injunction for women not to speak or teach men in the church is another example of a law that is repulsive to many today. . .

tbaba1234: i. A non-muslim who has never heard much about Islam in a clear fashion might not agree with with what he has heard.

This person is not a kafir in the literal sense.

ii. A person who has never heard of the message of Islam is not a kafir.

Allah does not punish anyone until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

iii. The one who has been presented with Islam in the clearest fashion; with the evidence and proof and still rejects it is a kafir

This is tbaba123's opinion and interpretation because the koran does not say what tbaba123 is saying. . .The koran is talking about punishment for people that have not heard about the islamic message not about the name the unbelievers are to be called. . .A kafir simply means a person that is an unbeliever. . .simple. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]The question now arises, in whose reality? and how do you know for sure that Jehovah is not the only God that exists? There may be many different perceptions of God but there can only be one true God for God to be moral giver[/quote]In the reality we see around us. . .Because allah exist as well, tbaba123 is also on this thread, he has every reason and evidence to show you that allah exist. Allah exist and is also the moral giver, go ask the muslims. . .

tbaba1234: Correction:

i. The killing of innocent people by anyone is strictly prohibited... The Quran only talks about fighting in the context of combat/war.

ii. There is no such thing as infidels in Islam... Infidel was a term used by the crusaders against the muslims.... The word used in the Quran is Kafir which mean.. to hide or to reject truth...

So basically; The Quran talks about the one who rejects the truth when it has been presented to him clearly... That is the kafir.

Not all non-muslims are kafirs, a kafir is one who rejects and hides the truth after it has been presented to him

Kafir is the same word as an infidel which means an unbeliever. . .I really don't know what you are on about here. . .Infidel means and unbeliever, so there is such a thing as infidel in the islam because unbelievers are talked about a lot in the koran. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]If you have been following my argument from the beginning you would have noticed that I am arguing from a christian viewpoint so in my worldview only Jehovah exists as God and the law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ so now the we live in a dispensation of grace therefore in this dispensation, God does not give us the right to kill anyone.[/quote]In reality Jehovah is NOT the only god that exist, allah and many other gods exist so how do you deal with them and their followers?. . .If killing of millions by the chosen men of yahweh is justice then why is the killing of infidels by the jihadist not justice, after all allah the creator of the universe and mankind says in his book the holy koran that he dislikes the infidels. . .