₦airaland Forum

RSA:
But it is an open secret that Nigeria just like its population have the biggest problems in Africa,there for it's not a suprise when 'other Africans like highlighting your problems',

The reference to size in problems is of course in correlation to its population size so look at it in more oa a relative term compared to other African countries will ya?

RSA:
So you decided to focus on negatives things in South Africa,Ok I see.I would be a better man and focus on the positives things in Nigeria.How is that?

What positive things have you commented on about Naija in the near past. Can't remember any of it>

Please see attached.

A better articulated response on i"multiple models" regarding industrializing the Agric sector in Nigeria and generally across Africa in the local sense and comparing incorporation of such ideas with other developing countries that have adoptad and adapted several policies including FDI possibilities.

I swear I didn't here a word of " evil empires sneeking into the country". Read my brothers. Read!

Kola by the way is a good friend of mine. Kudo's bro.

[flash=400,200]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g-rPyXyHWw&feature=channel_video_title[/flash]

@ Mandingo

"I know poor boy. MAssa always WANTS to puts ya in the  barn and keeps ya hungri"

GIVE US US FREE!!!


[flash=400,200]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfTn44hy39Q&feature=related[/flash]

RSA:
That is so low Morph,jealousy is a serious disease.

Ps, What's the difference between suicide bombers,religous war and xenophobic violence? No difference.Lets all count the corpes and see who'll will loose count.

No differences really, just like to highlight your countries problems from time to time as it seems other Africans like highlighting ours.

Lesson: We can focus on the postive things we do or we can focus on the negative.

The country where they kill thy neighbour!

MandingoII:
Sure there are more people living off $2 to $4 a day but on the Whole. The governments have SOLD ITS SOUL to the corporations. The corporations RUN Africa. There is still massive unemployment and The CORRUPTION is ASTOUNDING!!!!!

Factor in now the LAND GRAB and Africa will be OWNED by OUTSIDERS.

Though your point on the permeation of Corporate power in the global scale of things is well taken. The rest of your gibberish is fear mongering!

let me know when you guys are ready for that revolution of yours. I've been packing and stacking!

^^^^
@cheikh

You above points are duly noted. The difference in view points stems from the arguement framed in reference to the deficiencies of systems in Africa ie. government, property rights, land ownership and the likes and how this would hinder such deals from benefitting the African masses versus The possibility that economic theories that have proven successful for several other developing nations could be adopted and adapted to fit within the African context in faciliating change within the economic systems in Africa and inevitably the governmental systems that run them.

Solutions could be as contoversial as encouraging and staging massive movements for change in those who run government and a hopefully enthusiasim in installing "new" visionary leaders who will be charged with the responsibilty of rebuilding the broken down systems from scratch. Shielding African economies i.e protectionism from the so called second invasion of Western hegenomy and alternatively rebuilding African economic and social institutions from grass root levels wih the help of so called i.e.NGo's,humn rights orgs and the likes or thirdly plugging into the the dynamic global economic arena with caution in the long term strategic goal of using modern day information systems, semantic and communication technologies in facilitating an equitable redistribution of wealth to reduce poverty levels on the continent and with the intentions of using these same systems to force change within government institutions.

I don't need to tell you which option I am for now do I. 

Identifiying a problem and repeating its deficiencies is only the first stage in trying to find solutions to solving it.

cap28:
^ ^^^^

Ive always known that you were lacking in intelligence, but you have now shown me a new side to your s.tup.dity by actually going as far as referring to my mother - loser, grow up and learn to take your humiliation like a man and not like an overgrown school boy!!!

Come on now Cap. You should be able to take what you dish out. What's all the sensitivity about. I thought you had thicker skin. Since you seem to like to engage in juvenile acts of insult slinging. I thought I might indulge you.

I like hard headed wannabe cyber Bullys. They are quite amusing. Egotistical maniacs with this unquenching desire to have the last word. Relentless conspiracy theorists in their self righteous quest to appear knowledgeable and spread their truth, yet wielding no true sense of power, authority or experience on subject matters beyond the confines and conjectures of conspiracy theory propaganda, fear mongering and dogmatic expressions by demagogues they watch on youtube all day in their 400 sqaure foot flats in the middle of London England.

Here's how I know I got you Arrow! You are still responding to my posts. Clown!Let me know when you outgrow that ever youthful mindless vigour that regretfully predisposes empty headed young folk like yourself into soaking up a heap of rubbish.

Morpheus say' Stop trying to hit me and HIT ME!"

cap28:
Ahh Kissinger - have you seen Christopher Hitchen's (a british intellectual) documentary on him?

and have you read his NSSM 200 (National Security State Memorandum 200) written in 1974 when he was Nixon's national security adviser? In this document he recommends the use of war, famine, biological warfare and control by western nations over food supply to various third world nations with high population (nigeria was one of the ones mentioned) IN ORDER TO REDUCE THESE COUNTRIES POPULATION.

This document was classified until 1989 when it became declassified under the freedom of information act.

by the way, dont even bother asking morpheus about kissinger because he has never heard of him

You are greatly mistaken my dear chap. I believe na ya conspiracy theorist mama wey never here about Kissinger.

To reiterate the best direction for Africa in terms of these so called "Land grabs". The resolution requires a focus by government in establishing viable long term "Industrial policies" which are geared towards building local industry and leveraging on the the 'lack thereof' of local expertise in the short term
Concerned stake holders need to pressure all parties concerned including these institutions that are "hedging" to erk out new deals.

At the most   tri partite  channels of negotiations with government, business and local stakeholder i.e. Labor, farmers, civil society and the likes need to established to move forward.

Pointing out Corporate power plays and screaming "there is fire on the mountain" is just nothing more than,  "Loud uncomfortable noise"

cap28:
bro I've given up on morpheus he's beyond help

I usually don't like stooping down to your ignorant level of insults but in this instance

Kachi buruku banka shege!!

stmarc32:
@cap28 Don't worry you will always have knuckleheads like Morpheus who refuse to acknowledge that everything happening now is history repeating itself , only difference now is that the puppet controlling the guns and bombs has a black face

Who you calling a knuckle head, Knuckle head.

Watch yourself!

stmarc32:
@ Morpheus China didn't really negotiate to get to the stage they r now, Corporate america's greed and their relentless effort to exterminate the american middleclass coz of the power they exerted over policies in the 50s made them what they r now , Read Kissingers book about China says it all.

Thats simply looking at it from one side of the coin. I take it you are familiar with the product life cycle economic theory in play concerning a sometimes "unintended" diffusion of technologies subject to how it is manipulated in the recieving country. Of course there are several other key factors in play that facilitated China's quick absorbtion and duplication of these technologies but thats a whole new chapter on its own.

Don't only read books that reinforce your bias. Try to look at it from a broader perspective will ya!

cheikh:
Morpheus24
@Morpheus ^^ thanks for your write up but you'll agree with me that of all African countries Nigeria perhaps comes close to having the greatest potential to actually create or design and purposefully develop viable systems that perhaps may meet our goals of socio-economic development if we so desire or put our collective heads together given our inherent human capital. It does not necessarily follow that whenever we think  "development" or "Progress" it has to mimic something else wholesale.

In terms of social and economic welfare, Technological transfers are a function of aspirations for development and progress. This we must agree upon. Other countries have acknowledged this phenomena and so should we. Technology is not an exclusive right or invention of other nations. Its part of the human genius, the strive to improve to survive and to prosper, doesn't matter what context you want to frame it in. Africa has been excluded from global trade for a long enough time so much so that we are way behind and still have many years to catch up.  These same exclusive barriers  "man made" or simply "coincidental" have excluded us from technological advancements and diffusion thath have penetrated many countries in the distant past and currently in present times. We can't continue like this. Its unsustainable. The era we live in is givng us a chance to grasp this opportunity and do what we can with it.

Social and cultural issues will always be intertwined with economic issue and it is necessary to clarify and decide which of these subject matter is the most influential

cheikh:
My fears are based on the fact that we have never really tried to look "inwards" at all but mimic others unquestionably. Looking inwards does not preclude exchange of ideas with others. As it is now we are very vulnerable because we have never been able to forge a healthy viable national culture which informs our actions such as sanctions and reward systems etc. Presently, we are hoping that "evolutionary" process will help us out without our active intervention. Whereas, economic "development" or "progress" maybe very laudable and desirable goals, can we ever overlook the social/psychic health of our society? With the little unmediated development we've witnessed so far in our domain(Nigeria), are we collectively satisfied with the impact on our socio-cultural[b]values[/b] especially as we are loosing sight of what's right or wrong but money etc. Desire for materialism or money per se is not bad but must be seated on a bed rock of positive value system pervasive in society which every one of us can sincerely plug in to like it is in those other societies we mimic. Other strong nations have an identifiable national culture and expectations. Can we afford to let mere "evolutionary" process take its cause?

The very consensus of value systems,  forging of national identities and the likes are faciliated by evolutionary processes. I can give a guzillion examples of that.

cheikh:
Is it not rather inhumane if in the mad rush or quest for "development" or "progress" we sacrifice the tiny minority amongst us because that happens also in some places. I believe the African way of dialogue until we achieve a consensus is also a viable alternative than the "elitist" govt of Botswana method which was later found to be wrong at end by the Courts leaving bad blood everywhere hence there are on going endless wars in Africa. Your economic viewpoint in contemporary climate and times is the norm and very suitable for the prevailing market place of the Europe and the Americas. Africa is not quite a full equal member of that market place. Your economic analyses and viewpoint are on point but that kind of mind set and know how will be appropriate for a western market sphere where there are laws and accountability as given or norms instead of as exceptions .

I urge you to read up on the economic theory of product life cycles. This was a process that was extremelly advantageous to China. These theories are not exclusive conjectures for western societies to play around with as you say but stem from deep intuitive understandings of economics given within the confines of the human condition.

Peace!!

cap28:
^^^^^

if you think nigeria which has sold out its own people for close to 51 years now has the same bargaining power as an up and coming superpower like china - you really do need to have your head examined - like i said - enjoy your coming enslavement

I'll be waiting patiently for that revolution you and your likes are about to ignite that  is bent on waking up the conciousness of the slumbering African populous and usher in this new fantatistic age of 'responsibile" visionary a.k.a socialist leaders who will transform Nigeria into what your version of it ought to be.

Save me a front row seat will ya. I think I'll be waiting for a while.

cap28:
^^^

the problem with dumb africans like yourself is that you are so steeped in ignorance that it will take a miracle to get you out of your stupor, sheeple like you thoroughly deserve what is coming, thanks to the likes of Goodluck Jonathan and other african traitors the future is looking very bleak for the african continent, have fun and i hope you enjoy your coming enslavement.

Oh yeah. Remind your followers again to click on that attachment and see where at the very beginning of these drawn out arguements I had clearly indicated "Negotiations" relative to China's method as the key component for fully accepting any land deals.

The future for Africa is shinning as bright as ever and we will not allow Alarmist short sighted ignorant neanderthals like yourself keep us stuck in the dark past.

"Yesterdays woes are not an absolute predictor of tomorrow's future. I stand on the other side of the line drawn and will hold fort come rain or shine."_ An original by Morpheus24

cap28:
Where did  you point this out in previous threads?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-688389.0.html

Note the date as well, clown!!

cap28:
You like to pretend as if you know anything about this issue, your stance is predicated on repeating capitalist mantras and right wing economic theory that you dont fully understand, do you not understand that unlike the hedge funds, multinational corporations and ivy league universities who stand to reap huge returns on their investments africans stand to gain absolutely nothing from these type of one sided deals.

If you were aware that negotiation is the key to securing a fair deal for african nations why ask this:

you would do so much better if you learnt to accept that you dont know what the hell you are talking about.

Ha!  ha ha!.  Boy Please! your weak minded followers can fall for all that demagougery rhetoric. Try to school yourself on other discplines as well instead of sticking your head in those Anti-western propaganda books

Keep deluding yourself about yourself.

cap28:
interesting - so wise one what would have been your advice to the french and americans - to remain under the heel of the french and british aristocracy?

cap28:
Right - so the best way to avoid being exploited is to simply hand over the bulk of your most fertile land for a pittance - thanks Einstein - i knew i'd learn something new from you today

hmmm

cap28:
Excuses excuses, there are many technocrats who have been insiders to the nigerian govt who are far more knowledgeable than you about economics and international trade agreements, you want to tell me that people like Okonjo Iweala (world bank stooge) is "confused and is running around like a headless chicken?" no these people know very well what they are doing they simply LACK THE DESIRE TO DO THE RIGHT THING, by the way the world bank did not RAISE the alarm as they have a vested interest in seeing africa remain dependant on external aid, the alarm was raised by the same NGOs that you have been blindly criticising!!!!(oakland, Grain et al)

You don't say!

cap28:
Oh i get it lets leave the very people who have FAILED nigeria for the past 51 years in office - that sounds like a great solution -

I never said that. You did?

cap28:
^^^
just thought id add this - technological transfer from western nations to africa is possilbe if properly negotiated - america transfers advanced technology to china under trade agreements very favourable to china - the chinese make it a condition of many of their trade agreements that the americans transfer advanced technology to them in exchange for american access to chinese markets - so it can be done IF THE HOST NATION HAS THE WILL TO DO SO - so far we are yet to see that happen in most african nations.

^^^^
I have already pointed this out in previous posts on this thread. You just don't get it do you.

Morpheus says " You've made the choice. Now you have to understand it"

cap28:
^^^

i really dont like getting into debates with you because we do not sing from the same hymn sheet but i will respond to you just this once -

You don't have to clarify that for me. That has been fully established.

cap28:
first of all Malcolm X was not a separatist - he was all about acheiving justice and equality - NOT separation, he was cut down prematurely by a govt that simply was not willing to allow a black messiah to arise in the black community and equip its people with knowledge and wisdom.  Malcolm actually revised his views on race when he went to Mecca where he saw white and black muslims praying, eating and socialising together so i dont know how you have come to the conclusion that "he lacked insight into the human condition".

I really don't want to debate this with you either as you are predisposed to believe I don't know what I am talking about. Malcolm X was a seperatist. His early teachesand references promoted this ideology. When Malcolm X became disillusioned with the group he had fought tirelessly to advance, he journeyed to mecca and came back with a fresh insight into race matters. This was not his first journey outside of the continent nor his encounter with muslims of different colors so it cannot be excused that some how his eating and drinking with muslims of different colors changed his frame of reference.

The reference to his lack of insight stems from his eventual epiphany of this very condition.

cap28:
His original revolutionary views were however, very justified and he (along with other african american leaders) played an invaluable role in bringing about change in  white supremacist america, these changes came about in the form of civil rights legislation and affirmative action among many other changes which blacks in america continue to benefit from till today.

There is no disagreement with the above referenced. If your response is based on an assumption that I believe Malcolm and indeed the nation of islam's technics were not instrumental in exerting change then you assume wrong. They were in my opinon a necessary evil in as far as they understood the limitations of their chosen technic in realizing that their stance was only a portion in the overall goal of truly balancing out an unbalanced equation. Malcolm understood and verified this aftewards

cap28:
Yes, wants, power and needs can be insatiable but thats why we have checks and balances in society to prevent or at least limit them - if not we begin to sink into  anarchy and oppression, this is what so called democratic systems are all about.  Western nations like to pride themselves on how "democratic" they are therefore it is the duty of people who are affected by their actions to hold them accountable to those tenets that they claim to uphold.

I agree with this

cap28:
Revolution is  not a short term method of correcting oppression and tyranny as was demonstrated in the case of the french revolution - another example is the  american war of independence which was a revolutionary war fought by british settlers in order to throw  off the shackles of british monarchical tyranny - i think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would agree that the american settlers were better off living under the tyranny of british colonial rule.

The french and American revolutions exemplify exactly what I am referencing to. The motives of both revolutions was a bitter battle between power(aristocracy) and the lesser man. For all its supposed progress it is strange how these cycles seem to repeat themselves even now within these same nations. The same battle being fought and revolutions reigniting themselves leaving the real factors that ahve advanced these societies at bay.  I leave you to ponder on what those are.

cap28:
As i mentioned to you earlier - inviting foreign investors into your country and selling them huge tracts of land at rock bottom prices does absolutely nothign to improve the well being of the host country or the indigenous people, if anything it worsens the economic conditions of the already impoverished farmers who are forced off their land without compensation and forced to work on land they previously owned  for their new foreign masters on starvation wages.

The problem has been identified and so eloquently reiterated by stakeholders, institutions and new anchors concerned. Now what?

cap28:
As i said earlier the best way to encourage agricultural investment is for africfan govts to invest in their own farmers - plough money into the locals, invite in foreigners to teach locals how to practice mechanised farming - to me that makes much more sense than just selling off the bulk of your most fertile land to foreigners.

The loops hole in your solution are related to the repeated problem of the human condition. Do you expect the foreigners to exchange that valuable knowledge  for salaries or one time lump sum payments. Why would they do that? Whats the gain?Its not like you are going to figure out how to maxmize that output on the land any short time soon.

Secondly,  government in Africa are so confused runing around with like chickens with their heads cut off that they are unable to allocater resources to programs or agendas that have real future value. They are busy trying to urbanize to keep up with the Jones' and have no real platforms where real expert indigenous experts are called upon to discuss, rally and implement solutions. It takes outside individuals like klaus schwab and  think tank institutions like the World bank and institutions in oakland to raise the alarm.

cap28:
As has been pointed out by people who are more knowledgeable on this issue,there is no evidence so far that the host nation has benefitted from these kind of projects, be it in terms of technological transfer, job opportunities or even food supply so why are you still holding on to this beleif that these land sales are going to yield all the supposed goodies promised by these investors?

cap28:
The reason that you dont see the results of NGO's like Grain is because they are small charities, largely ignored by african govts and who do not have access to the huge budgets available to these huge multinationals and agribusinesses, furthermore 9 times out of 10 their efforts to effect changes in govt policy are simply blocked or ignored by corrupt african rulers who prefer to line their pockets with quick and easy money and that is the way it will stay until these types of corrupt rulers are removed from office.

After they are removed from office then who will take charge. A fine solution.

cap28:
the multinational corporations are not interested in trransferring their technology to african farmers neither are they interested in enablign africans to become self sufficient what they want is for africans to be perpetually  dependant on them for food supply and that is what is unfolding before our very eyes, so sit back and enjoy the ride.

Strange. Its not like you are doing anything substantial about the problem either?

PS forgive my grammar I think faster than I type

An allegory of sorts for the intellectually inclined. Malcom x was regarded as the 'backbone' of his people. The 'manhood" of his nation who would take no nonsense for the colonialist imperial forces of his oppressors so much so that the solution to the problem for his nation was to deviate, separate for it was impossible to find an identity under the clout of their opressor. The solution was to reject every system, mannersism, socialism and lifestyle of his oppressor in so far as it was entirely opposite to the aspirations of his people. A revolution was necessary to enact change. In the end Malcom becomes a victim of his own rhetoric, participants in his revolution take his life. He failed in this attempt because he lacked the insight into the human condition.  the force that drives wants,power and needs are insatiable regardless of who holds them.  I repeat regardless of "WHO' excercises them.

Revolution will always be a short term insight of an attempt to balance an "unbalancable" equation. It creates solutions that are born out of hightened states of tension and distrust. It diseminates demagougery rhetoric and in the end will always  return to an unbalanced state of things because of the element of the human condition. The chips seem to fall back into place with so called desirable transfers of power but some how the structures remain the same.

How is  an "incompetent" government structure charged with the responsibility of empowering its people via giving them the ability to maximize output on arable land supposed to solve the problem of empowering them without exercising all the possible means of power to empower them.

How do you develop or transfer the technologies that are necessary to equip these local farmers with the short term goal of producing food for local consumption,the long term goal of feeding an ever growing national and continental population and a translation of  excess produciton for possible exportation exchange value?

HOW! HOW HOW!

I have heard empower the local farmers. In what way? NGO's like "Grain" bringing knowledge to the poor farmers . Right right. Thats brilliant. These mofo's have ben around Africa for over 50 years. I don't see the results of the miracle they are perfomring on the continent,your usually 'save the world" gestures of sympathy.

The damn government can't translate resources into know how, Don't know how to translate or take advantage of the man power or know how to develop these lands all in the face of overwhelming access to technologies that can be exchanged . No one seems to ever give any concrete answers.

cheikh:
@OP

There is nothing wrong in 'honest' transparent investments anywhere but somehow some of us seem to be holding the classical 'economics' text books too close to our chests for our own good without critical introspection of our  local conditions. We have so much unfinished business in Africa that using only classical economic interpretations as guides to confront our problems are nothing but recipe for future restive societies in permanent flux. Botswana was or still is touted as a beacon but the victims of such so called success are the Khoisan because they have no political(numbers) leverage but had to depend on international(foreign) campaigns and Lawyers to help prosecute their legitimate legal/land cases against a typical African government beholden to foreign investment interests but couched in "Development" narrative.

I respect your points but as Africans we are yet to answer the central question of a vision and perspective as to what are our aspirations are for our economic, political and social developmental agendas as we march forward alongside other nations of this world.

Too long have we sat around on forums and tv talk shows arguing about how much negatively influenced we are on borrowed systems from western societies and how this does not fit in with who we are and what our goals are. Yet there is no consensus on who we are or what we represent or what our goals are as a people, as nations or as a continent. The unfinished business you are alluding to stems from this central unanswered question. It facilitates our tribalist, selfish, greedy agendas. it represents the darkest natures of our beings in the human condition we grapple with and are yet to come to a common consensus and move forward with. We are quick to point out the deficiencies of others  systems such as capitalism structures, socialist paradigms and communist alignments still do not recognise the progress in terms of the human condition variants of this system has offered to human beings, We refuse to find balance within acknowledign the good and evils of  these systems and how elements of such systems may work for us.

Most societies have moved through the same patterns and stages we find ourselves in today. I dare say they are way ahead of us. In terms of economics movements from hunter gatherers to Farming to pastoral societies to the revolutionary industrial stage which brought urbanizaton to the information and now to the semantic stages of development. In terms of politics movements from dictatorships,colonailism, monarchies and now slightly better systems of democracies. In terms of society movements from the barbaric cavement isolationism to cooperative civil society clusters that protect dignity and fundamental human rights.

I ask again, what do we want? is it development? is it to progress?. If so then in what way, through what system, what structures. Any man made system will always flaws and have people who loose out as a result or advancement. The balance is embedded in recognizing and indulging in the philosphies of subject matters such as utililatrism or indvidual rights and freedoms of where debates about the sacrfice of the few for the progress of the many versus the rights to life and to own ones self are critically analyzed. A case in point is the khoisan of botswana you bring up where their human rights seem to be violated in the arguement for urbanization and protection of the enviroment. These are collisions that are unavoidable in the matters that concern progressing and developing otherwise what is the point?

cheikh:
If all was well with us, the economic interpretation of Morpheus24, Ekt Bear, and cautionary economic views of Kilode?! will be very welcomed anywhere but the reality of our state of being is sickening indeed. Watch out for future wars in South Sudan and other places in the not too distant future. The human relationship to Land in Africa is like no other place on the planet. It has been our greatest resource and protector against wanton destruction and wretchedness pervasive elsewhere but for aggressive foreign incursions into Africa. We are truly in danger again except this time, it appears 'legitimate, legal, 'equitable' negotiated investments. Zimbabwe, South Africa, Namibia, Uganda and Kenya should remind us of some festering 'Unfinished' business without adding more to our 'elitist' minority inspired anti people governments. We do not have the right people oriented inspiring governments anywhere in Africa accountable to anybody either. Internal local capacity is lacking. Nigeria comes close to having a local capacity by default because of the large ethnic groups counterbalancing each other. In other words, there is a balance of terror which most other Countries do not have hence my fear and cautiousness. 'Investments' are desirable but our history and local conditions should inform our decisions for the benefit of our people not just a handful of priviledged government officials etc. It appears bleak really.

I agree with the bolded points and assert that I am more optimistic in this day and age because of the era we live in and how it has transformed the way information is diseminated and used. The same information heralded by the so called powers that be is being used to hinder back room deals and closed session negotiations. My outlook for Africa is very much more optimistic and believe that the power of evolutionary systems will change the narrative of the continent in the next 50 years so let the deals come and let us confront them with skeptism and caution in that this is the only way forward to negotiating an renegotiating better conditions for Africa.

Again sitting back and creating Demagoguery statements is self defeating in the long run. It doesn't really say or solve much of the problem at hand but is simply a way to exarcebate up till its tipping piont hoping that a REVOLUTION of sorts will cause drastic change for the better.

Time and time again, History proves these individuals wrong and the only visible and progressive change that happens, occurs in the state of evolutionary and not revolutionary thinking.

Iknow i am blabbing but had to get that off my chest. Whew!!

cap28:
I dont normally listen to Al Jazeera but here is another v interesting debate about the ongoing land grab in africa, debated from various perspectives:

[flash=300,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnoxL_NWuRA[/flash]


[flash=300,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqmEb8SvNe4&feature/relmfu[/flash]

Love the way Riz moderated the discussion. the grievances have been highlighted by stakeholders concerned. The central issue is a repeat of what all those in support of this idea have been saying i.e. the process needs to transparent, governments need to be held accountable and its win win points need to highlighted and if necessary readjustments.

I have continued to suggest that the negotiations need to center on a transfer of technical know how and expertise to local industry over the long term to promote sustainability and this point needs to be stressed to government by stake holders concerned. Folding your hand and shouting neo colonialist aint no progress at all.

Ps. I am really weary of NGO's who come with their holier than though, save Africa mentality into Africa. These often "western liberal graduates" seem to cause more havoc in the name of promoting peoples rights and I am surpirsed no one ever complains or highlights that most of them bring these leftist ideologies that do not take into account the cultura aspects of African culture. Wonder how that aint a formof neo colonialism and meddling in the Affairs of Africa.
Hmmmmm

buzugee:
means those so called 'developed countries' are all smoke screens and mirrors if they are populated with people with depression, suicidal maniacs, and homicidal maniacs. thats a sign of turmoil in the undercurrent of those societies. nothing to emulate. nothing to envy.

oh yeah i am from the tribe of simeon shalom my brother. do me a favor. stay black.

like we have a choice in that matter. Really??

violent:
You probably took more meanings to the religious part of my statements than i intended to portray.  Of course, looking at things from a consumer point of view, ethics is important for the soceity at large, when businesses adhere to strict code of ethics, as consumers, we benefit!
What about from a business owner's point of view?. . .A business's aim is to maximize profit, and yes, even if that mean that the rest of the society has to be at the recieving end.  

Is this practise healthy?----absolutely not!. . .just the reality, cold and simple!

It is important to understand that businesses are subject to societal obligations as members of that society.  Reality is defined by those who choose to define its parameters. It is not necessarily the company's job to define these parameters which is why we have governments( a representative of the society). A case in point is the US which has numerous protection agencies that require these businessess adhere to the consent and requirements that assure over exploitation and manipulation for the greater good of the society.

violent:
I remember while working at 7up botltling company for my Industrial attachment in my undergrad.  I witnessed a situation where some dudes were told to offload a full truck full of sugar at the price of 5 naira per sack carried. . .boy, when I'm talking of sack, you should be thinking of something in the range of 35kg.  This is unethical and exploitative from a consumer point of view, but the managers sees it as cold business.  Their objective is to maximise shareholders profit as best as they can, even if that meant going against code of ethics, as long as they aren't caught in the process.
Again, is this a good thing?---depends on which side of the coin you' re on!!!

It doesn't depend on which side of the coin you are on. To clarify my point, If you caught a thief and the community of people living in your neighbourhood exerted jungle justice on this individual and burnt him alive. Would you consider that the right thing to do given that certain people in society accepted this form of justice or is it simply wrong to kill ?

All business is doing to transfering the burden of ethical behavior because they are simply kicking the can up the road. What sense does that make since you will inevitably face the adverse effects later on.

buzugee:
you guys can talk till you are blue in the face. still will not change the course of history. ladies and gentlemen we are living a prophesy. we are fulfilling a prophesy. the despoiling of africa will go on till this phase of life on earth passes on and ushers in the next phase. heaven on earth. you nimrods have brought all this on yourselves by worshipping
1. sango
2.obatala
3, mami water
4, human sacrifices
5, juju
6, voodoo

cuz of this you have been left exposed. butt nekkid. left to the whims of your enemy. babylon, the edomites, the philistines, the amalekites, the tyreans. in modern day these people have all morphed into europeans and arabs. take your backside whooping and pillaging like a real man bellyaching wouldnt alleviate the pain.

I think you've been listening too much to those black hebrew Israelite chaps don't you think?

cap28:
the points you have raised here could easily be directed at america  and a few other european nations - lets take america as an example - it is currently running a deficit of $14 trillion dollars - it is on the brink of bankruptcy - if not for all the treasury bills that China, europe and japan buy from it, it would not be able to function - is that your idea of a successful economy?

america has been unable to provide a comprehensive health care programme to its 300 million citizens but Cuba has - why is that?

unemployment in america is rising very rapidly - it has outsourced the bulk of its manufacturing industry to china and other far eastern countries resulting in high unemployment - [b]is that an economic model to emulate?[/b]

freedom of speech in america is fast being eroded - the right to habeas corpus has been suspended from the american constitution - is that your idea of a free and democratic society?

dont even get me started on corruption - why are lobbyists who work for big business in america so powerful?

Regarding the bolded a free market system will always source factors of production where it can maximize output. Neo merchantilist would argue in your favour regarding protecting industry and labor in America to tackle employment but the fact of the matter is in an open economy and global arena that very action will inevitably fail in the long run as exemplified in the US post great depression attempt in trying to protect domestic companies.

China's comparative advantage in cheap labour requires that in comparative terms it be the hub for manufacturing goods in a global trade arena. The US comparative advantage in new technologies, capital and innovation requires that it concentrate on this[b] FACTOR ENDOWMENT [/b] to export to the world. In the short term workers with less desirable skills will be elimitated from the system and will either become obsolete or will need to retrain to take on new jobs that are created and in the long term this is will be sustainable growth for he US economy.

The US/Europe account for about 1/3rd of the entire worlds total consumption rate. It therefore cannot be discounted as a leading power in driving growth.  If its consumption rate slows down world trade will slow down and the so called manufacturing emerging markets will not be able to sustain their own growth. Who will they export their products to. Their consumption figures are way below that of the US's. China, Brazil and India are vested in the long term performance of US as much as the US is vested in the manufacturing capabilities of China.

The economic model of the US needs to be tweeked to account for problems within its chosen system. These problems stem from the consumption patterns of the US in terms of net consumption vs net savings and net investment and the underlying issue of Corporate power in influencing Government commitment to social protections.

violent:
Companies are established to make only one thing!---Profit, pure and simple!. . . Ethics are the reasons we have churches, mosques and our mums.

The definition of Ethics and responsibility is that of the government!. . .Goldman Sachs is one of the biggest Investment Banks in the world, and if there's anything GS is known for, it is that their unethical ways of conducting business!

A business man gives no shyt about ethics, as a matter of facts, ethics on several cases only come in the way of business and where crude profits could be made.  The government ought to recognize this fact and enforce business rules to ensure that business don't operate out of ethical codes.  In cases where the government fails in his responsibility to do this, you can hardly apportion blames to businesses.

It's simple, if you don't tell me not to do it, I will simply assume that it isn't wrong and i'd go ahead to do it anyway, as long as it brings in cold cash for me!---that's business my friend, nothing personal!

@ violent

I agree with most of your previous posts cept this one regarding ethics. It is extremely important to note that companies cannot make a profit without taking something away from the societies they operate in. Therefore in order to be given the PRIVILEDGE and consent to function within these societies that often have moral, legal and natural rights of resources, an[b] EVEN [/b] and ethical exchange is required.

Exploitation must be compensated accordingly and in this is way the concept of ETHICs becomes necessary in business. It is not necessarily driven by religious or sentimental thinking but intrinsinc moral values we are born with.

The issue regarding this matter then becomes what sort of deal are Africans via their government getting out of this. Is it fair and equitable? Does it recognize and tackle the issue of long term sustainable growth via transfers of technology and expertise.

Our suspicions and distrusts stem from our perception of our so called representatives_ Government who are supposed to act in our interests. Therefore the solution lies in continuing to ask questions and inquire about details concerning these deals. The days of secret hand shakes are over in this information age.  The past century has seen Africa excluded from the global trade arena and this has stifled growth and created barriers for advancement. It is necessary to intergrate but advance cautiously so as not be over exploited. It is paramont that we do this for our long term survival.

Seun:
Most African countries will just seize the lands back at the slightest provocation, so there's no risk really.

lol

Good one, Seun

ANy alternative solutions out there?

ANy?

cap28:
I dont know if you read through the articles or watched any of those videos but these land disposals are going to millionaire investors and not ordinary joes, if any of these african govts were serious about encouraging[b] local investment it would have subsidised local farmers in africa [/b] the way the europeans and americans do with their own farmers, not allow foreigners to come in and buy up land at rock bottom prices.
Do you even understand the implication of allowing foreigners to own the bulk of your arable land? can you not see that that puts you in a very vulnerable position in terms of providing food for your own people?

1. Local investment?
from where?

2. Subsidize inefficient farmers.

hmmm Don't think so. That's money down the drain

Like the usual Nigerians. Talk talk talk but no alternative measures given to counter. Always the "The boogey man  is coming to get us syndrome".

Answer question:

Gvien all the arable land in Africa that is underproducing, what are the alternatives to leasing land to those who are able to work them efficiently?

If we reject the so called invaders, name one solution that is required by our governments to boost our Agric sector and fend off these Invaders?

I AM WAITING FOR ANSWERS PLEASE!! or is it only shouty shouty demogoguery in play here?

Sun of god:
How many more attrocities are we going to allow the 'Oyibo' to commit against us?

I weep for Africa, . , , .

Weep for your propagandist demagougery self!