₦airaland Forum

abbywax,

I will have to agree and disagree at the same time

I disagree because:
I don't think you have seen the works of every single web developer in Nigeria to make that assertion. Sure, like you, I have seen some very bad stuff. At the same time, I have seen, at least through this forum, some very good stuff as well. You also have to remember that web design/development is very subjective in the sense that one man's meat is another man's poison. Also, don't forget that there is a cultural aspect to web dev/design. I say this because, unlike web sites from other countries, I notice that Nigerian sites, again for the most part, tend to "flashterbate" for one. Finally, I firmly believe that just like there are pretty girls who don't show up for beauty pageants, there are those who do web dev/design very well in Nigeria but unfortunately aren't doing enough to expose themselves to the world. I will end here to let others chime in.

Saying all Nigerians are amateurs is equivalent to saying all Nigerians are yahoo boys. Now, I don't know you personally, but I doubt 100% that you fall into that category.

A perfect example is this site: http://www.legacyuyo.com/ - a similar argument has been raised about Akwa Ibom state web developers. Someone claimed to me that AKS didn't have any. When I showed him this site, he immediately changed his position. Could improvements be made? sure, but it is pretty darn good, if you ask me. Unfortunately, all efforts on my part to contact the guy who did this have proven futile. he won't come out of the shadows. In my opinion, if I were to set up shop back home, he is the kind of guy I would want to partner with. But again, if he doesn't reveal himself, how can he and I get better? On the other hand, look at: http://www.gakpabio2007.com/ - if I were to judge AKS developers by this site, I would never trust the simplest of sites to them.

I agree because:
From what I derive, at least from this forum, for the most part, web developers/designers are going solo. In other words, it isn't uncommon for someone to google "html in 24 hours", read up what is pertinent to him/her and immediately call themselves a "guru" or "webmaster". There is more to it than that. If there were a way for say, some company to set up shop in Nigeria (this is where you could come in ) and hire the best, the difference would be clear overnight. Even if we had bad eggs, we could start off by hiring them as interns (mostly from the university system) and train them/send them to various seminars in order to bring them up to snuff.

Here is another idea I had in mind: When I am ready to set up shop in Nigeria, I would start by inviting all those interested to submit their designs for a website I have in mind. I would then pick, say, the top 5 and those would be my employees. Another idea would be to host a class of some sort. Again, say, my top 3 students after it all would form the nucleus of my company. I would then back them up by either sending them to various courses abroad or in the country or having people from abroad, especially those of Nigerian descent, come to teach them the latest technologies.

If I were to lend a %age to my arguments, it would probably be 52% to 48% in agreement with what you are saying. Having said that, I know there are good ones out there and again, b/w hiring them, sending them to seminars and even perhaps exchange programs (so for example, you could host a competition whereby the top 3, for example, get to spend say, 6 months at your firm in south africa ) and one-on-one nurturing, my %ages would immediately flip the other way.

This is just my one man's opinion of things and as I said earlier, I will let those who are actually in Nigeria chime in some more.

webdoc,

to abandon simplicity would go against all I have been preaching for years. Having said that, there is always an exception to the rule. When the time comes, we shall see.

As far as hiring someone goes, I actually have a fulltime job. All the sites I have done are for residual income purposes. On the other hand, if my dream of setting up a web dev shop in Nigeria (Pray for me ) becomes a reality, then you bet, I will hire someone from every sphere of web dev, from graphics to db to developers, etc.

Regarding my username, let's put it this way: if i were indeed related, do you think I would be on the webmasters' section of NL? LOL

krs1,

Thanks for taking the words out of my naive mouth

igweee,

thatz the whole point - I am not going to search on KWs that you give and in a certain order. i will do search randomly and so far, you are losing.

Remember my chinese proverb from yesterday? Just in case, I will repeat it: when a man is pointing at the moon, only the idiot looks at the finger. Be advised.

Again, I am not competing with anyone, let alone you. If you feel you have to beat me in order to get laid by your woman, go ahead. We aren't in the same market space and doubt we will ever be. So again, if what will get you circumcized, masai-style, is beating me in the SERPs rankings, be my guest

igweeeee,

Keep whatever "skills" you have to yourself and your "networks of sites". Your arrogance has turned me off. If you feel so strongly about your "skills", apply them to your own sites. What I said above is correct semantically and not gramatically. Unlike you, I admit my faults upfront as I am humble to the core.

So go ahead with your claim to beat WOA. YOu have 7 more days, and as I said, God help you if you do not beat me

between: I just did a search for "nafdac" on google and you did not come up on the first page. As a rule, I do not go beyond page 1. So sorry, you're out of luck in my books. Again, I dey wait. Also from your photo, you look like a certified yahoo boy and am beginning to think you employ black hat SEO techniques on your sites

cactus,

point of correction noted

The good thing is, I never claimed to be a "don"

So, igwe4life, feel free to dethrone what doesn't exist and good luck

As far as I am concerned, I don't really care about visitor rankings but my site's position on the SERPS based on KW searched. In other words, if I get a -ve visitor ranking but get $10,000 from the one client who wants my services, then it's all good.

Of course, what the almighty igwe didn't divulge (then again, how could he, given his poor grammatical skills - ouch!) is that the "3 visitors per day" is an average, and not the actual. Perhaps the true SEO don should have asked why the numbers are low. It turns out, the only advertising I do for the site is on Nairaland so naturally, I expect numbers to be low. *I will* advertise on Nigerian mass media this year and the numbers will definitely rise.

Talking of the kettle calling the pot black, igweeeee, your blog was established in April 2006 but your profile page has only registered a whopping 440 views. Woooow! I bet the babes are salivating all over themselves with that kind of number

Am I new to SEO? you bet. I am still learning as I go. But hey, for a newbie, you have to admit, I am making progress and like wine, I will only get better with age.

So igwe4life, keep on deluding yourself regarding your "don" status. From personal experience, I can tell you are a blow-hard. You are an alpha male, full of testosterone. I mean what else do you expect from someone who likes "ursher (as opposed to "usher"" and Lord of the Rings

I will tell you this though: I got into a similar situation with one of my original sites, http://www.geocities.com/myibibio. I got challenged by someone who had http://www.ibibiodictionary.org/. His site barely got any visitor rankings but it was always above mine, even though the site has no content. In the end, about 3 or so months later, my site reigned supreme. And mind you, my site is hosted by geocities which, as you may know, isn't exactly the site SEs smile upon when it comes to organic SRs

Finally, some advice for you, igwe4 life. The book, "Art of War" states (to paraphrase) that the winning general is the one who wins the war without firing a single shot. Also, there is a chinese proverb which states that when a man is pointing at the moon, only the idiot looks at the finger. I will try my best to ignore the personal attacks. I won't sink to that level. If you had posted something like, "my2cents perhaps you should do so and so to get better rankings", I probably would have listened to you more.

Good Luck on your SERPS domination! I go pour libation for you when you do beat me (and you bet, I will be checking the SERPS daily from now on. God help you if, come June 15 (I will dash you one extra day), you aren't on top. Your reputation will definitely be at stake. And hey, don't cheat by using your blog to do it. That's the cheap way out

mr_pee,

I am actually in the states like you

I only created the webmasters of africa site to congregate all web developers/designers under one roof. To be honest, those I know are all developers and not designers. Having said that, you should still do a search on the site under "find a webmaster". Though I don't have the capability to search by discipline (hint hint for myself ), on the listings page, each webmaster has a "skills" section you can check out.

For now, I guess your best bet would be to search for webmasters in Nigeria. I know, with 108 members, the returned list will be large, but I think it will be worth it. So far, those who have told me they have used the site say they haven't been disappointed.

Let me know what you find out. Good luck!

mr_pee,

Might I suggest the #1 search site for web developers and designers, http://www.webmastersofafrica.com ?

Many pple like you have gone on there to search for potential developers. Rather than them come to you, you can go to them, screen them and make a decision instead of going back and forth with posts

Good luck!

So,

I have probably sent this out a million times in the newsletter, but hopefully, by addressing it here, it can be settled once and for all

When you "become a webmaster of africa", you are just entering personal/business information, that's it. This information then gets displayed when someone clicks on "find a webmaster of africa". Now, if you want to have access to the "members only" section, you have to click the "member login" link, create a username and password and it is only then that you can log in that section. In other words, just because you are a WOA doesn't mean you're an actual member? I know it sounds confusing, but does it make sense? Once you enter your email address as part of the member registration process, I check on the backend against the email address you used when you "became a webmaster of africa". If they match, I let you proceed. If not, you are SOL. If the former, you are sent to a landing page where, right now all you can do is update the profile you created when you "became a webmaster of africa". After I advertise the site and membership increases (and it will ), I will turn on other functionality.

Sorry for the confusion. WOA was my first PHP website and I am sure I could have coded it such that upon becoming a WOA, you create a username/password. Right now, unfortunately, I have moved on to other things and don't have the time to refactor the WOA code. So please be patient, log on to the "member only" link, create a username and password and you should be good to go.

If you have any other questions/issues regarding this, feel free to YIM me (udotot25). I may not be on as currently, I am up to my bald head with project work for my employers, but I promise to get back to you soonest.

Thanks, and sorry once again for any inconveniences.

astron,

Although you didn't give us a URL, I did a google (don't mind me o! I am just being a busy body ), and found this URL: http://www.gtinigeria.org/

If this is the site you did, then I just noticed something you should be aware of: On the "About page" in Firefox, the header graphic seems to be messed up. It might have something to do with how you cut up the images for that image:

http://www.gtinigeria.org/about.html

Just thought you should know so that the client doesn't find out b4 u do

Good luck!

I see it as follows:

If you buy something wholesale for N4 and sell for N6, of course you still make N2 profit. If you sell it for N20, you make N16 profit. However, there is a lot you could do with N16 that you couldn't do with N2. In other words, you would have to sell 8 more things at N4 to catch up to the guy who would have to sell once for N20.

Also, from the Nigerian perspective, where the developer typically does everything from DB design to site architecture to backend coding to html, I think N4000 is way too small to cover the mental expenses alone. Of course, as lawisong has said, you get what you pay for, but how many clients in Nigeria will realize this at the first try? I usually get this response when I tell them my price, "Well, okoro charges N4000, so why should I pay you N500,000 (for example , but I wish o!)?" I don't think most clients in Nigeria have reached that level of maturity to realize that a website is more than flash objects and eye candy thrown on a page. I could be wrong, looking at it from a bird's eye view approach, but I think I may be right here.

Bottomline, in the name of making a quick buck, we shouldn't cheapen ourselves. Some may liken this situation to the walmart or tesco syndrome but forget that those folks sell things by the boatload daily and so can afford to sell their goods for cheap. If you are in a situation where you aren't even sure of building out 1 website in 3 months, let's face it folks, what can N4000 (this amount by the way doesn't include expenditures I would imagine) actually buy you in Nigeria these days?

Anyways, just a one man's opinion on things. I hope this helps.

http://www.google.com/search?q=african+webmasters

Now, all that's left is advertising on Nigerian radio/newspaper and possibly TV. After that, I expect hits on the site to hit the roof

Final chance to jump on board the WOA train

There shdnt be a uniform price, end of story!!

What you charge should be up to you. Let the forces of demand and supply determine whether or not you get business. Again, using another example, Dbanj and King Sunny Ade are both musicians but their charge isn't the same, and shouldn't be the same.

If you do a good job and pple like what you do, demand for your work will soar which should in turn mean higher charges for you. Simple, short and sharp

segebee,

I could be going totally off course here (for which I apologize in advance) but how can you say above that you didn't "design this site", yet 2 paragraphs later, say, "I did this site overnite".

I am a wee bit confused and getting premature balding from those statements

If you can answer this question, then you have an answer to your question:

When looking to buy shoes, you usually have a choice: open-air market and boutique. If you go to the former, you step in mud, have some filthy pple rubbing on you, the stench could be unbearable and you have to haggle for prices. If the latter, you get an air-conditioned environment, personal attention and the prices are set, albeit higher than the open-air markets.

So the question is: given the same pair of shoes, should the price be the same in both places?

Someone passed this out at work and I figured you guys would benefit from it too

coders beware

Enjoy!

http://www.wait-till-i.com/index.php?p=104

Hmmm, no offense to nikinash (so pls don't bother posting to that effect), but it seems the developers on here have been hoodwinked. By asking for the cheapest designer, you guys have been forced into a reverse auction where the lowest bidder wins.

In other words, if you typically accept say, N50K, in order to win her biz, it is possible for you to go lower. Sure, bidding for biz involves lowering your price and from a biz standpoint I can't fault nikinash as she has a profit to be made from her biz as well, but folks, don't resort to selling yourselves short just for the quick cash. Just a one man's opinion on how I see things in life

As always, my 2 cents.

dejia (and to all those with similar comments):

To paraphrase you all, saying that a bank has no need for good design when there is good functionality to me, is like saying there is no need to use a spoon for eating when there is a shovel.

Sure, in the end, it boils down to functionality but letz face it, if you go to the market in search of say, a shirt, granted you want something that will be comfortable given the hot conditions in Nigeria, come on now, what attracts you isn't the "functionality" of the shirt but if the shirt looks good in the first place. If it catches your eye, then you start looking at the other features. Even if you don't buy the shirt, you would be attracted to the shirt that catches your fancy. At least, thatz a one man's opinion on it all.

I no go lie, for me, if I am not attracted to something, no matter how good or bad it may be, I don't proceed any further. It kind of reminds me of those women who,when looking for a man, say looks don't matter and that it's all about what's inside. Thatz a big fat lie. Even if it is 1% of what they are looking for, physical attraction does play a role in who they go out with.

As always, my 2 cents

dason4life,

It appears you may have taken a little sip from the swamps surrounding the theatre at Surulere

Did I ever say it was mine? If that is what it implies, then sorry for the confusion. To me, any jokes I read here are either from chain spam emails or from books or word-of-mouth and that's the whole point.

Either way, this is a jokes section man, lighten up!! Now, do you feel better?

biko nu, e jo o. no advert o! Just relating my experiences to my brothers/sisters-in-arms. If possible, pls move back to webmaster section. If not, no ya wa.

wow,

So on my way back from running some errands yesterday, I ran into a sign on the roadside in my home town of Atlanta. It read, "Websites for $50". Of course, trust me , I immediately converted this amount into Naira and came up with the conservative figure of N6,000 (I like to assume N100 so that when I visit, I am not stranded ).

Anyways, so I call the person, she picks up and we start talking. I ask for some of her sites to determine if I would go with her. She gave me her latest: http://www.thunderbirdsusa.net/ as well as others found on the "links" section of that site.

In my opinion, her work is worth more than $50 and I wonder why she charges so cheaply. I mean, how many sites will she have to do to fill up her tank (I currently pay $50 to fill mine for instance)? Granted she said she doesn't do any new work but works off of 5 templates she has already, still, $50 too small o! In fact, it should be a crime to charge that little. Having said all that, the capitalist in me says to let sleeping dogs lie. If that is what she wants to charge, so be it. That will in no way make me come down on my prices. As I often say, there is Okirika and there is Leventis.

So, to all my brethren and "sistren" developers out there, sorry for saying you charge so low as someone else, in America for that matter, has definitely taken the cake. Having said that, never ever sell yourselves short. It has been my experience that the more you charge, the more respect those clients who are willing to work with you will have for you.

As always, my 2 cents

andrea5,

2 things, and I say these based on my personal experiences. either:

1) You need a new challenge (aka new job, regardless of pay or benefits)

2) you went into programming, not really because you loved it but because it was the in-thing at the time and you heard there was a lot of money to be made and you decided to go for it.

As I said earlier, I have been under both conditions:

(1) i worked at a place for 2 years where based on the work done, I said to myself, "one day, I could be laid off (retrenched) and when going to look for another job, I would have no marketable skills because what I am doing is so basic". The pay was good but the job wasn't challenging enough.

(2) I studied Agric Econs at Unical before "Crossing over". I wanted to continue with that or Business Admin upon arrival. My uncle advised me to go into software engineering as it was the latest thing (he was telling me the truth: it was the beginning of the .com era). I started coding in 1999. I make good money, the benefits are good, but to tell you the truth, I am beyond burnt out - I am not that motivated anymore, most of the code I write is based on copy-and-paste from libraries of code I have written in the past and I dread the fact that I could wake up one day and I am 60 but yet still am a code monkey. Perhaps I am ready to move on to being either a manager or an architect. Or maybe this is my own version of mid-life crisis.

There was a time when I used to stay up for 3 days straight, bumping to my favorite rapper, while cranking out code. I wouldn't see daylight for days. Just me and my co-workers cranking out code. Those days have loooooong gone. It's all about me now and not my employer. I come first in everything I do now. Once your employer gets what they want from you, they will suck you like an orange, toss you on the roadside and get either a younger coder or one from India or China who can do more for less. Nope folks, I am not bitter but speaking reality here.

So I feel you andrea5. All I gotta say is, if the opportunity presents itself, jump ship to another company. Remember, it isn't always about the money. You could make N1million naira a month and not be happy with your job. I say this again from personal experience. If after you stay at the new employers for about 2 years, you still feel the same way, then it is time to change career. Coding isn't everything. It is just a means to an end with respect to putting food on your table.

For those who may be waiting to jump on me with the question, "Hey my2cents, why not practice what you preach?", believe me, I am working on it

Moriki,

My origin is totally irrelevant. My post was meant to make people laugh and not to offend. This has nothing to do with tribe. If it did, then I would probably have posted it in the "politics" section. In other words, my post has no agenda or "direction".

Lighten up my friend

bantos,

it was forwarded to me by someone in Nigeria so I guess that person, and not myself, stole it from you

lol seundare, you just reminded me of a very popular saying, "what a man can do, a woman can do better".

Perhaps it applies to web dev as well

Well,

U could also say that Hot men looking for a possible quick lay also care but that's not the point

Granted female developers may be scarce in Nigeria, she should look to work with developers in general. If it turns out majority of those who respond to her request are female, all the better

nduaj,

thanks for bringing that up. Who cares if you are male, female, transgendered, a hermaphrodite, transvestite or asexual?

All I care for as a client is if you can deliver a website that satisfies both myself and my customers.

zule,

hv u tried your favorite search engine?

I bet there is something on there, granted it may not be word-for-word with respect to what you want.

good luck!

There is nothing wrong in having some eye candy in addition to functionality. I can't speak for the Nigerian market but the way it is in the states, there are the programmers and then the designers (as well as DBAs, copywriters, etc). Together they work hand-in-hand to come up with a fully functional and good-looking site. From what I glean from NL, it seems the developer does everything from architecture, to coding to designing. Everything including the kitchen sink.

It could also be that the clients don't know any better. This could be where, in order to create additional value in the eyes of the client, the developer gives them the good design, even if it means charging extra or absorbing part of the cost associated with hiring a designer.

There should be no reason why the client can't have both (of course, abuse shouldn't be the order of the day )

topyblack,

your question deserves only the following response from me:

So what? Who cares? If you are afraid of what pple might say, just be aware that pple will always talk about you, good or bad, and you are not the first person pple will talk about.

Geez