₦airaland Forum

TC,

I enjoyed your response.  It will be trifling for me to rebutt the responses in bits but I do want to say you and I, as with many others, see these things from a whole different perspective. 

I am processing the total information from their absolute value. 

If a woman comes to me with a child and says Negro this is your baby, all I need to do is look on the child for images of myself. They are either there or not. Images of myself will be my physical attributes or attributes of close family members. Somewhere on that child my family attributes will be visible. If there are no such visibility, then the child is not truthfully mine, end of story, I don't need a dna test. Same thing with death. If a man was shot and killed, then the matter of what he dies from is already decided and there should be no need for autopsy to determine cause of death.

Doing dna test to decide fatherhood on a child that looks like my twin or performing autopsy on someone killed by bullets is nothing more than an insult on the natural endowments of faculties of divine enlightenement and wisdom. Someone has figured a way to generate income by styling these stupidities as intelligence. We are shutting out God in preference for man's order in natural ability to intuitively discerrn, recognize and process.

Looking at the Obatala/Bes figures, how would you conclude on the Ife link to Egypt? Would you wait on the experts to uncover or unearth links or would you exercise independent thought and faculty of discernment to speak to the truth of what your soul recognizes in these two arts? If these two arts, using them as samples out of many, are not a physical evidence of a direct link, then I don't know anything else that will be. . . . except maybe what western education endorses and stamps authoritatively as a link.

If we ignore our inner ear and shut out our third eye to follow blindly behind European philosophy for empirical proofing, then we will forever remain a copying and mimicking society, never bold and courageous enough to originate , no matter how much accolades ofacademic honors are prefixed to our names. This our timidity from originating and advancing thoughts is transparent, hence, Africans have many historians who have studied European history but none is recognized as a global authority in that field. If we cannot be authority for originating our own truths, others will no doubt dismiss our scholarship, however credible it is, at propagating the origin of their truths.

So I ask again, to everyone who dismiss any link between Ife and Egyot to look at these duplicated figures, whether in terracotta or brass, and prove that Ife and Egypt were not chain-linked. These are only in physical and we are not even in the mystical yet. . . . in the mystical realm, you will be shocked to discover what that sitting figure is doing with one leg upright and the other resting on ground. You all have heard about chakras from Europeans and Orientals but never from your own Yoruba people, well these figures are telling you some of the things you didn't know your culture had.

This is a very beautiful art. I love it!

To start with I have always been a defender of Igbo unity on Nairaland but I seem to have arrived a dead end as it seems culturally we are not the same people.The artificial ethnic creation seems to have been founded on Nri/Awka hegemony and other so-called Igbos sheepishly following them.

I told you already - you are a wrong majority in Nigeria. Be content with your minority reality or you risk getting pushed out of West Africa for ever.

Ah, Dayo, which one be lobotomized gorilla ? You are a case!!

Agbotaen,

Ndo o, pele! From God we came and to him is our return. May his soul rest in peace, Amin.

Absolutely: http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/menhirs.htm

I don't like to rely on Wikipedia as a source, but this page shouldn't be too controversial. In any case, it's the images that are important:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhir#History

You'll see that Opa Oranmiyan in many ways is more similar to smooth-sided European monoliths than the angular, pyramidal shapes covered with hieroglyphs found in Egypt. Happy to provide more if you're interested although I think we're starting to get away from Ife and directly related cultures, which are at the center of the discussion.

TC,

When I saw this response I at first thought you are taking this matter for a joke so I began to question if you were truly sensitive and serious about this topic or just here to ridicule. It dawned on me soon after that I had not done a very good job of familiarizing everyone with what Opa Oramiyan stand for. 

I first want to state as a matter of record that what we are sharing on this forum is public information and in a cultural landscape in which Yoruba children - and adults for that matter - are increasingly distanced and insulated from an intimate knowledge and consciousness of our history and journey through the timeline of humanity, we  must be alert and mindful of how far we are taking the liberty of published materials  to push what does not speak to truth.  Authors striving to make a living are not unguilty of pushing dogmas and conspiracies,   Locked between Samuel Johnson, Sultan Bello and Burton, I will believe Johnson before Bello but I will not even look at Burton.  Unfortunately, I am seeing that the truths of Johnson and Bello are being repressed here - as was done before to shield our eyes from their truths - and the motives commissioned through Burton are being heralded as  a reliable platform to stand upon.

It is logical to rule out cultural links between two civilizations in which the articles of their commonnality is random, inconsistent, non-exclusive and cannot withstand tests of elimination. If however, the articles, whether in physical form or sacred arts, posess dynamics of self-truth from one to the other and from the other to the one, then the protocol under which their scrutiny is conducted is itself illogical if it fails in its conclusion to harmonize with that self-evident truth.

It is meaningless for me to clarify the physicality of Opa Oramiyan without sharing with you all an outcome that happened here in NL many months ago.  We were discussing Oduduwa or Lamarudu, I can't quite recall which one and I was trying to convince someone but someone came in and dropped a bombshell.  He said Oramiyan is actually Orion.  I thought to myself Orion is Greek, how could Oramiyan whose fathers originated from AfroAsia be same person as Orion a Greek?  I sent email to three people to join me, if their time permitted, for discussion on Oramiyan vs Orion.  Upto that point I had never known that the semitic letters Ra, Yod were etched into the side of the staff, this was revealed to me during discussion. Then another bombshell, I learnt that the Greek's Orion and the Yoruba's Oramiyan both came from the same root letters Resh and Yod!

So this was the backdrop from which I said Opa Oramiyan has origin in Egyotian consciousness. As far as monoliths and obelisks being common everywhere, there is no contention of that - it is widely distributed, but this Obelisk in Ife is unlike any other in all those places referrenced in the link.  I have continously asked to people who say Yoruba descended from Nok to identify Nok by any other name in its antiquity and none has done that. 

In a summary of Ife/Egypt link, here are the proofs - physical and documented .  I am not including mystical evidences:

1.  Two independent and non-collaborated documentations that accounted for Yoruba origin and migration tracks from AfroAsia to SouthWest Nigeria.

2.  The staff of Oramiyan bearing semitic letters Ra, Yod etched or engraved into it.

3. Unearthed arts of Ife in symmetry , both in form factor and consciousness - with Egyptian arts and relics.

4.  Tradition and customs in rituals, garments and instruments of priesthood.\\


Here is somthing for thought: 

1.  Ife bronze arts have been compared at on the same scale as Greek art.  Is it possible that Greek copied an artwork indigenous to AfroAsians? 

2.  Oramiyan and Orion both came from Ra Yod, an AfroAsian tongue.  Matter of fact, Orion, as a night sky star, is culturally associated with the Babylonian Bronze Age.  Orion's descendants were known as Nephili - giant people.  These were giants inhabiting Canaan.  From Nephili came Arba, the greatest man of the land, who gave birth to Anak.  Could this Anak be "NOK"?

Notice aso the use of Arba denoting giant and ARABA in Yoruba to denote a High Priest or even Araba tree - a tree which is reputably of gigantic dimension.  Is the Canaanite Arba for giants the unintended meaning in the Yoruba's Araba for a giant tree?  How many such accidentals and incidentals does it take to embrace self-evident truths?

In closing, deniers of a link between Ife and Egypt need to open their eyes and gaze directly into the eyes of these arts,  they have a message for the world, they are speaking to you. . . . . they want to be released from the darkness that have shrouded their identity for so many centuries, they want the truth to be told.  You will be their voice.

Negro--Obelisks (and pyramids and hieroglyphs) don't seem to be limited to ancient Egypt and related cultures at all--they're all found in South America for instance. Opa Oranmiyan even resembles some of the stone monoliths found in England related to the Stonehenge builders. The superficial resemblance isn't enough justification for an actual cultural link.

TC,

Give specific people and places outside of Egypt, Axum and Ife, where an Obelisk was erected for any other purpose than a mark of worship or record of origin.


Physics,

What is your conclusion of the Obatala/Bes link, in perspective of what we have been discussing in matters of origin?



This is open to the personm somewhere who said Opa Orayan was a designation to Ogun worship. The staff was erected immediately after his death. In the reign of Oranyan and immediately afterwards did the people of Ife worship ogun?

Physics,

I checked and yes you are correct it came from grapevine's contact with the ovbioba reference. I suspect your denial is an act of modesty, but I will take the answer. Thank you.


Amor4ce,

You are taking us back to imagination with that question. Give your opinion of the evidence first before invoking creativity around the Obelisk.

Physics,

I could not get chapter 6 either but I will wait to read TC's when he pastes it in here. In case you didn't see it - but knowing you, I'm sure you did - here is the repeat: I heard you are a Bini prince.

If you haven't read Ade Obayemi, Akin Ogunidran, Aribidesi Usman etc, it's hard to understand why this topic shouldn't be a matter of too much dispute. There are many professional archaeologists (many of whom are Yoruba) who have worked on the origins of Ife and the question of an Egyptian link. None of them agree with the theory because there is simply no proof.

I quite understand! It's not like I have any proof in my posession either. However, there are things which are self-evident in their own truths. Since you are not interested in mystical revelations then I will stay only in the physical.

1. It is universally accepted by scholars and historians that Obelisks are exclusively Egyptian. Any other culture that posesses the knowledge is either an auxiliary of Egypt or has merely copied and erected one for landscape effect. How did Ife, an unlettered people in the savannah of sub sahara Africa, get an Obelisk - Opa Oranmiyan?

2. We just got through discussing the relevance of prostrations and kneeling in Yoruba culture. Yoruba share with the Abrahamic faiths very similar acts of spiritual rituals, including priest garments and instruments of altar offerings.

3. In Ifa verses, the theme is "two" and the cadence is "repetitive", just as in the Holy scriptures of the Abrahamic faith.

I can't use imagination as a reasonable standard of proof re: the Dutch and African-American examples. In those cases, we have documented proofs of a link. If you're asking people to imagine the possibility of Egyptian origin, we might also imagine the possibility of Greek, Etruscan, Mayan, Olmec, Arabic or Russian origins. This is why proof and rigorous evidence have to be the only acceptable standards.

Yoruba had proofs too -I already mentioned Samuel Johnson's book and Sultan Bello's book, both were destroyed.

Imagination is what much of Greek classicsare made of. Romeo and Juliet is not a true act, neither is Othello. Homer is a fictional character hewn out of imagination and creativity. But we pride our civility and academic scholarship on these fables.

i think i've come across some of this material before, a long time ago

So why do you still have doubts of the origins?

There are two sources and yes i can post one comfortably.

Here you go: http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofyorubas00john/historyofyorubas00john_djvu.txt

TC,

Check the link for a lengthy but breakdon analysis of the Yoruba language. To get the summariesd go to page 45 of the document.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OcINAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=yoruba+roots&source=bl&ots=PFOEJTcFUk&sig=NNKmYt1xWrotER4ZqRqRi8XP6zU&hl=en&ei=Hue9Tu7HI86r0AG79qnFBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=yoruba%20roots&f=false

My earlier point was that there is no direct evidence to link ancient Egyptian and classical Yoruba or Edo cultures. The cultures are separated by a gulf of time (the current site of Ile-Ife was a collection of hamlets when Egypt was overrun by Assyrians and much of its native impressive culture abandoned). What followed were centuries of Greek and later Roman rule. This is an important point because if we link the rise of Ife around 500 AD to Egyptian influence, we will basically be agreeing with the racist historians and anthropologists who thought Greeks, Romans and sundry mythic Atlanteans were responsible for the refined works of art produced by that culture. I don't believe that and neither should you.

I think by evidence here you mean physical hard evidence of relational link between the two. Will a non-physical value as for instance in consciousness serve as a satisfactory proof of inter-relational existence?

Pertaining the timeline and age of Ife ascension to be in synch with, or immediately succeeding, the Grecko-Roman occupation of Egypt, yes you are correct, I do not believe that as a possibility.  This is easily resolved for me because I take these arbitrary dating of sub-saharan civilizations with a pinch of salt.  The same people who denied our civility could not also be the authority for dating our evolution.

Physics: In my last point, I said there's no direct evidence pointing to a link between Egypt and Ife/Benin etc. There is indirect evidence, which would be the Nok linkage mentioned in Physics' posts. What's interesting is that alongside the artistic similarities between the two, the dates of Nubian ascension and restoration of classical Egyptian forms matches up to the rise of 'Nok' (we don't know what they actually called themselves)--that is, around 800-700 BC, there were major events in Egypt that could have led to migrations southward.

My problems with these possibilities, interesting as they are, are simple.

A) While Nok artworks show some affinities with Egyptian ones, there's also a lot of variance. The stylized eyes and postures of Nok pieces are different from Egyptian conventions, so superficial similarities can't tell the while story.

B) There's no evidence of Egypt's most distinctive artwork and cultural achievements--the pyramid tombs, mummification of the dead and the keeping of hieroglyph records. If these people were Egyptians or Egyptian-influenced, they weren't very faithful to the core of their culture.

I second this interest - are there other names or identities for Nok that can serve as a universal marker of recognition.  For example, if they were the Old Axumites for instance, then it makes sense to remotely link Ife to their civilization.

There's also the common sense issue I mentioned. Egyptians were desert-dwelling people. Why did they leave Libya, Morocco, Chad, Niger etc untouched to plant themselves solely in southern and western Nigeria? This seems more like speculation and less like anything supported by the historical and anthropological record. I don't discount the possibility and it's an appealing thought, since I believe Egypt was an African civilization. There's simply very little current evidence, other than the circumstantial.

I responded with another question to this in a previous post but if the African-American scenario was not sufficient, here is another example:  Before England and France came to West Africa, Portugal was already here and been in inter-cultural exchange and trading.  Before them the Phoenicians, the first cartographers, had been in West Africa.  The capital of Old Egypt was in Djebe which is on the same latitudinal belt with Old Mali and Old Mauritania, trades and caravan routes for spice, dye, leather, crafts, arts, . . . .were already alive and well between the Old capital of Egypt, the seat of the Paharaohs and other Old civilizations of the Sahara and sub-Sahara. So it was not a totally unfamiliar territory or terrain for them.  Using your analogy, we must ask why did the Dutch lept over so many countries and settled foot and authority in Zululand, a totally strange and unfamiliar territory and people?

Negro-Ntns: Again, I believe you should be free to believe anything you wish. As Physics points out, linguists don't believe Yoruba and the languages spoken around the Nile Valley are linked. Interestingly enough, Hausa belongs to what was called the Nilo-Saharan group. I'm not sure how you know the language spoken at Old Oyo was Old Hebrew; every single reference I've ever read to it pointed to the language being very similar to current Yoruba, which is not similar to either old or current Hebrew. Again, I fully accept that I'm not all-knowing so please free to correct this with any info you have. I'd also add that I don't think it's good form to tell someone the meaning of words in their native language if you don't speak it. "Aken" is not a Yoruba word, so I don't think it's helpful to interprete it in Yoruba. It's through similar tortured 'interpretations' that we have people claiming that 'Oduduwa/Odua' have particular meanings in their language which have little or nothing to do with the Yoruba understanding.

It is very unfortunate indeed that we have moved away from sound and tonal  language to latin alphabet and text language.  I will provide the needed support to this later or I can send you a link to a document.  There are certain things in this document that dont eed to be on NL given the current state of tribal competition and envy at the local level.


[QUOTE]A few more points--

A) How many people know that the word 'birnin' means 'walled city' in Hausa? That's a far more likely etymology for Benin than the various ones you may have read on the Internet or in outdated books. Just a thought.

B) Nupe is thought to have been mentioned as an extremely powerful city in the area of the Niger by the Arab traveler Ibn-Battuta in the mid-1300s. However, the actual reference he wrote is to a place called 'Yufi'. This could well be interpreted as Nupe (which is sometimes pronounced 'Nufe' or spelled 'Nyffe'). It could also just as easily be a reference to Ife, which as any native of Osun state will tell you, is properly called 'Ufe' in Ife or Ijesa dialect of Yoruba. Interestingly enough again, one of the finest pieces of Ife bronze art was found in the Nupe village of Tada. There's also a Nupe man on the Internet who claims that Nupe is the origin of all southern Nigerian ethnic groups (he seems to have a special interest in Yoruba though). Again, he doesn't seem to have any training or interest in established scholarship (he claims he's a medical doctor), which shows the danger of Internet speculations, I hope. I'll add the link later but more food for thought. In either case, the Nupe are still great brass casters and bead makers (the two great industries of Ile-Ife which made it a source of the prestigious materials needed for court rituals and kingship initiation). More food for thought.[/QUOTE]

Nupe and Yoruba are inextricably interwoven.  Nupe wthemselves are not indigenous to the land they are on.

lol, does Ben Murray Bruce have a native name?

THE HISTORY OF THE YORUBAS

PART I



Chapter I
ORIGIN AND EARLY HISTORY

The origin of the Yoruba nation is involved in obscurity. Like
the early history of most nations the commonly received accounts
are for the most part purely legendary. The people being un-
lettered, and the language unwritten all that is known is from
traditions carefully handed down.

The National Historians are certain families retained by the
King at Oyg whose office is hereditary, they also act as the King's
bards, drummers, and cymbalists ; it is on them we depend as
far as possible for any reliable information we now possess ;
but, as may be expected their accounts often vary in several
important particulars. We can do no more than relate the
traditions which have been universally accepted.

The Yorubas are said to have sprung from Lamurudu one of
the kings of Mecca whose offspring were : — Oduduwa, the ancestor
of the Yorubas, the Kings of Gogobiri and of the Kukawa, two
tribes in the Hausa country. It is worthy of remark that these
two nations, notwithstanding the lapse of time since their separa-
tion and in spite of the distance from each other of their respective
localities, still have the same distinctive tribal marks on their
faces, and Yoruba travellers are free amongst them and vice versa
each recognising each other as of one blood.

At what period of time Lamurudu reigned is unknown but
from the accounts given of the revolution among his descendants
and their dispersion, it appears to have been a considerable time
after Mahomet.

We give the accounts as they are related : —

The Crown Prince Oduduwa relapsed into idolatry during his
father's reign, and as he was possessed of great influence, he drew
many after him. His purpose was to transform the state religion
into paganism, and hence he converted the great mosque of the
city into an idol temple, and this Asara, his priest, who was himself
an image maker, studded with idols.

3



4 THE HISTORY OF THE YORUBAS

Asara had a son called Braima who was brought up a Moham-
medan. During his minority he was a seller of his father's idols,
an occupation which he thoroughly abhorred, but which he was
obliged to engage in. But in offering for sale his father's handi-
work, he usually invited buyers by calling out : " Who would
purchase falsehood ? " A premonition this of what the boy will
afterwards become.

By the influence of the Crown Prince a royal mandate was issued
ordering all the men 'to go out hunting for three days before the
annual celebration of the festivals held in honour of these gods.

When Braima was old enough he seized the opportunity of one
of such absences from the town of those who might have opposed
him to destroy the gods whose presence had caused the sacred
mosque to become desecrated. The axe with which the idols
were hewed in pieces was left hanging on the neck of the chief idol,
a huge thing in human shape. Enquiry being made, it was soon
discovered who the iconoclast was, and when accosted, he gave
replies which were not unUke those which Joash gave to the
Abiezrites who had accused his son Gideon of having performed
a similar act {see Judges vi, 28-33). Said Braima, " Ask that huge
idol who did it." The men replied, " Can he speak? " " Then,"
said Braima " Why do you worship things which cannot speak ? "
He was immediately ordered to be burnt aUve for this act of gross
impiety. A thousand loads of wood were collected for a stake, and
several pots of oil were brought for the purpose of firing the pile.
This was signal for a civil war. Each of the two parties had
powerful followers, but the Mohammedan party which was hitherto
suppressed had the upper hand, and vanquished their opponents.
Lamurudu the King was slain, and all his children with those who
sympathized with them were expelled from the town. The Princes
who became Kings of Gogobiri and of the Kukawa went westwards
and Oduduwa eastwards. The latter travelled 90 days from
Mecca, and after wandering about finally settled down at He
Ifg where he met with Agb^-niregun (or Setilu) the founder of the
Ifa worship.

Oduduwa and his children had escaped with two idols to He
He. Sahibu being sent with an army to destroy or reduce them
to submission was defeated, and amongst the booty secured by
the victors was a copy of the Koran. This was afterwards pre-
served in a temple and was not only venerated by succeeding
generations as a sacred reUc, but is even worshipped to this day
under the name of Idi, signifying Something tied up.

Such is the commonly received account among this intelligent
although unlettered people. But traces of error are very apparent


ORIGIN AND EARLY HISTORY 5

on the face of this tradition. The Yorubas are certainly not of the
Arabian family, and could not have come from Mecca — that is
to say the Mecca universally known in history, and no such
accounts as the above are to be found in the records of Arabian
writers of any kings of Mecca ; an event of such importance
could hardly have passed unnoticed by their historians. But
then it may be taken for granted that all such accounts and
traditions have in them some basis in actual facts, nor is the subject
under review exempted from the general rule, and this will become
apparent on a closer study of the accounts.

That the Yorubas came originally from the East there cannot
be the slightest doubt, as their habits, manners and customs, etc.,
all go to prove. With them the East is Mecca and Mecca is the
East. Having strong affinities with the East, and Mecca in the
East looming so largely in their imagination, everything that comes
from the East, with them, comes from Mecca, and hence it is
natural to represent themselves as having hailed originally from
that city.

The only written record we have on this subject is that of the
Sultan Belo of Sokoto, the founder of that city, the most learned
if not the most powerful of the Fulani sovereigns that ever bore
rule in the Soudan.

Capt. Clapperton {Travels and Discoveries in Northern and Central
Africa, 1822 — 1824) made the acquaintance of this monarch.
From a large geographical and historical work by him, Capt.
Clapperton made a copious extract, from which the following is
taken : — " Yarba is an extensive province containing rivers,
forests, sands and mountains, as also a great many wonderful
and extraordinary things. In it, the talking green bird called
babaga (parrot) is found."

" By the side of this province there is an anchorage or harbour
for the ships of the Christians, who used to go there and purchase
slaves. These slaves were exported from our country and sold
to the people of Yarba, who resold them to the Christians."

" The inhabitants of this province (Yarba) it is supposed
originated from the remnant of the children of Canaan, who were
of the tribe of Nimrod. The cause of their establishment in the
West of Africa was, as it is stated, in consequence of their being
driven by Yar-rooba, son of Kahtan, out of Arabia to the Western
Coast between Egypt and Abyssinia. From that spot they
advanced into the interior of Africa, till they reach Yarba where
they fixed their residence. On their way they left in every place
they stopped at, a tribe of their own people. Thus it is supposed
that all the tribes of the Soudan who inhabit the mountains are



6 THE HISTORY OF THE YORUBAS

originated from them as also are the inhabitants of Ya-ory. Upon
the whole, the people of Yarba are nearly of the same description
as those of Noofee (Nupe)^"

In the name Lamurudu (or Namurudu) we can easily recognize
a dialectic modification of the name Nimrod. Who this Nimrod
was, whether Nimrod surnamed " the strong," the son of Hasoiil,
or Nimrod the " mighty hunter " of the Bible, or whether both
descriptions belong to one and the same person, we cannot tell,
but this extract not only confirms the tradition of their origin but
also casts a side light on the legend. Arabia is probably the
" Mecca " of our tradition. It is known that the descendants of
Nimrod (Phoenicians) were led in war to Arabia, that they settled
there, and from thence they were driven by a rehgious persecution
to Africa. We have here also the origin of the term Yoruba,
from Yarba, their first permanent settlement in Africa. Yarba
is the same as the Hausa term Yarriba for Yoruba.

It is very curious that in the history of Mahomet we read of
a similar flight of his first converts from Mecca to the East Coast
of Africa (the first Hegira), due also to a religious persecution;
this fact will serve to show that there is nothing improbable in
the accounts as received by tradition. Again, that they emigrated
from Upper Egypt to He Ife may also be proved by those sculptures
commonly known as the " Ife Marbles," several of which may be
seen at He Ife to this day, said to be the handiwork of the early
ancestor of the race. They are altogether Egyptian in form.
The most notable of them is what is known as the " Opa Orafiyan,"
(Orafiyan's staff) an obelisk standing on the site of Oraiiyan's
supposed grave, having characters cut in it which suggest a Phoeni-
cian origin. Three or four of these sculptures may now be seen
in the Egyptian Court of the British Museum, showing at a glance
that they are among kindred works of art.

From these statements and traditions, whether authentic or
mythologic, the only safe deductions we can make as to the mosit
probable origin of the Yorubas are : —

1. That they sprang from Upper Egypt, or Nubia.

2. That they were subjects of the Egyptian conqueror Nimrod,
who was of Phoenician origin, and that they followed him in his
wars of conquest as far as Arabia, where they settled for a time.
How subjects term themselves " children " or offspring of their

ORIGIN AND EARLY HISTORY 7

sovereigns is too well-known in this country, as we shall see in the
course of this history.

3. That from Arabia they were driven, on account of their
practising there their own form of worship, which was either
paganism or more likely a corrupt form of Eastern Christianity
(which allowed of image worship — so distasteful to Moslems).

Again, the name of the priest " Asara " is also a peculiar one ;
it is so much like " Anasara " a term which Moslems generally
applied to Christians (which signifies ' followers of the Nazarene ')
as to make it probable that the revolution spoken of was in con-
nection rather with Mohammedanism, and the corrupt form of
Christianity of those days.

Lastly, the sacred rehc called Idi from its being bound up and
preserved, and which is supposed to have been a copy of the
Koran, is probably another error. Copies of the Koran abound
in this country, and they are not venerated thus, and why should
this have become an object of worship ? The sacred book of the
party opposed to them ! One can hardly resist coming to the
conclusion that the book was not the Koran at all, but a copy of
the Holy Scriptures in rolls, the form in which ancient manuscripts
were preserved. The Koran being the only sacred book known to
later generations which have lost all contact with Christianity
for centuries after the great emigration into the heart of Africa,
it is natural that their historians should at once jump to the
conclusion that the thing bound up was the Koran. It might
probably then be shown that the ancestors of the Yorubas, hailing
from Upper Egypt, were either Coptic Christians, or at any rate
that they had some knowledge of Christianity. If so, it might offer
a solution of the problem of how it came about that traditional
stories of the creation, the deluge, of Elijah, and other scriptural
characters are current amongst them, and indirect stories of our
Lord, termed " son of Moremi."

Tpia,

Of all the people in here on this discussion, you are the only one, since I started on the story line of the roots, who has accompanied me along on the narrations. You are intimate with all my assertions beginning back when we discussed the person of Lamarudu, Nimrod, Al' Marud, Noah, Qahtan, Yarib, the Phoenicians, Atlas, Atala, Obatala and so on and on. . . . Against that backdrop, I want you to open your mind as you read this account and whatever you make of it becomes your truth.

Physics,

First and foremost, I am told by grapevine that you are a Bini prince. Is this true?

Oba Ewuakpe had already established the principle of primogeniture (the first son takes the throne) as a more firm rule (it wasn't necessarily adhered to before), so the fact that Akenzua would succeed his father Oba Ewuakpe was a done deal, but the Iyase a) had a strong dislike of the (then prince) Akenzua because of a personal insult or dispute between the two (from Egharevba's account) and/or b) was related to Ozuere's mother (from R.E. Bradbury's summary of Ezomo Omoruyi's account in 1950s), so the Iyase and some other leaders schemed to place Ozuere on the throne. After Ozuere usurped the throne and ruled briefly, Akenzua was later able to force both of them out of Benin with the assistance of the future Ezomo, Ehenua, and was able to take his righful place on the throne. Although hostilities and fighting still continued between Akenzua and the Iyase's faction for a significant time afterward, Akenzua and the Ezomo finally triumphed later.

Interesting account. . . . .this is an exact mirror of similar incident between Akitoye and Kosoko in Lagos. Akitoye was not the chosen but because the Eletu Edibo, leading the council of kingmakers, had personal vendetta with Kosoko, selected and forced Akitoye to the throne. It later erupted into a feud which has become history.

Anyway, Akin____ as a general rule of thumb in all Yoruba speaking tongues is braveheart. It could also occur in the format ____Akin__, example: Mor[b]akin[/b]yo. I am not closed to new knoewledge, so if you say that's what Akin means in Bini, then I will accept it.


On the topic of Ife roots, unless Nok is known by ay other name which is known to be local to AfroAsia, I disagree with all accounts of the interlink between the two. I will concede that Nok was birthed by Ife, but not the other way around. There is a strong reason why I say this and is supported in many ways by independent accounts and circumstances of events.

1. Yoruba language at the time of Old Oyo - which far predated arrival of Europeans, Islam and Christianity - was Old Hebrew. It was an ancient semitic language which is also the common root of modern Hebrew and Arabic; and although the historical source of these currents are far removed from one another the sound indeed correspond.

2. Yoruba nation is a commonwealth of independent states and tribes who in antiquity were extracts from the various lands of AfroAsia. Migration was a coalescing force that banded them together and in their settlement in Nigeria, it also became the commonality in consciousness, from which they became collocators in destiny and Nationality under the reign of Ife.

3. Samuel Johnson's book on the rootsof Yorubas was suppressed and the original was never published. Likewise, a third and independent account supporting Samuel Johnson's chronicle, authored and circulated by Sultan Bello of Sokoto Caliphate, was discovered by Clapperton, a British explorer who in his journals made a brief reference to the Yoruba history and whereupon the full works by Bello that details the tracks of migration was then taken out of circulation and erased from historica libraries and repositories.


If anyone does not believe in 1 or in 2, at least your conscience must cause to wonder why the two accounts were destroyed or taken out of public hands. What is it in these books that Europeans do not want the world to know about Yorubas? Are they the old Phoenicians (Canaanites)? Are they the people of Queen Bilkis of Yemen? Are they the people of Axum and Sudan? If anything is worth a scholastic inquiry and research, #3 definitely has earned that merit.

^^not sure what my temperament is yet until i check my temperament chart [or see your answer- either one].

but you can give it a shot as long as its simple and easy to follow with no intentionally vague interpretation

Aww C'mon tpia, let me enjoy myself.

Well, I will tell you what, it won't matter how I give it there will be contentions. Reason being that there are certain things you first need to know and understand before I ever discuss the tray. In discussing the tray I intend to also discuss the crown and the consciousness. So I will give you a lengthy but interesting read on the journey of that tray and that crown. Will that work for you?

By the way, it was not Ajayi Crowther's but Samuel Johnson's manuscript that CMS said was lost

Amorphous, thank you jare, yes Samuel Johnson, not Samuel Crowther.  The original was lost but then his brother collected notes and drafts left by Samuel and it eventually went to press.   These Yoruba deniers need to read the book and understand their roots rather than the lies some racist white man fed to them.

@ topic

i noticed the ifa divination trays seem to be mostly oval or round, with a few square ones on occasion.

does the shape represent the cyclic universe, the sun, or what exactly?

please keep the explanation as simple and straightforward as possible, for anyone who wants to reply.

In answering this question, I have no scholastic analysis to share but I can give a living mystical explanation that will add tremendously to the pool of knowledge. Let me know first your temeprament for accomodating a non-scholastic answer to a mystical question.

I don't have to agree to disagree on anything, if I start out right with a broadmind to inspect and analyze every contribution, then there is room to accomodate and to learn. I do not believe in the Nok ancestry you push but because of my approach of the root question from a Yoruba consciousness perspective I am able to accept it into the fold of my convinction, rather than to exclude it as an inadmissible position. To learn and to grow, the approach must be from the need to establish truth, rather than to reveal vulnerabilities.

If I ask you to link these Ife arts to Nok using their consciousness you will find it the most difficult thing to do. Not because you are uneducated or unlearned, but simply because the two civilizations did not have a shared consciousness. Ancestral roots are interlinked via consciousness. Yet, the materials with which the arts were made were partly Nok and we have used the physical aspect of art alone to subject Ife as a sub-part of Nok civilization. That is wrong! Nonetheless, it is a profound knowledge to have.

rgp,

First of all, I think you are ruining cordial discussions with the direction you have taken. Keep your emotions and sentiments at bay and share what you know without denigrating others. If you can do that it will be nice.

It is amazing that on meeting people ask what is my religion. No one ever ask what is my truth. We never speak to one another on truth, we speak on the currency of religion and academic scholarship - gaps and differences!

My friend, you do not know me enough to associate me with what you charge. Those with whom I have been on this journey of Yoruba roots will tell you that:

1. I have never said Yoruba is from Mecca.
2. I have never said Yoruba descended from Arabs.
3. I have never said Yoruba descended from Jews.

So please don't say things about me that you are unfamiliar with.


On the topic of roots generally, who are you to tell me whaat to claim or not claim about Yoruba? You are educated but you have failed to see a pattern in the way Western world write people history. They first remove what is not palatable to them and replace it with one they desire it to be. You cannot write European history (assuming you can) and leave out the source ofr authority of your accounts. So why should we excuse Burton or any of his comaptriots to write our history and not tell us where they authenticated it? We shut out the accounts of our forefathers as unreliable but we accomodate accounts of European racist as authoritative. What kind of education is this?

Samuel Crowther's work on Yoruba roots and ancestry was supressed and destroyed but his other literatures were published and circulated. What was it in that roots chronicle that they did not want you and I to know? Please my friend, stay with your belief and leave me with my belief that Yoruba is from AfroAsia. This is said respectfully.

Many Yoruba muslim belive Oduduwa is from mecca

Do you know why? Because Islam and Ifa share close similarity in rituals and mysteries. Christianity does not have anything in common with Ifa so Christians are not readily aware of the link.

On this point, we agree. I don't understand the obsession with finding the "origins" of Yoruba, Edo etc. cultures in Egypt. Common sense dictates that Egyptians could not have flown over modern Libya, Chad and Niger to plant their culture only in southern Nigeria, ignoring modern Ghana, Togo, Cameroon, Congo etc. It's highly unlikely and doesn't hold up to scholarly scrutiny.

TC,

I think you made an inway with this argument but then you stopped short of looking at it broadly. Let me give it the expansion it merits. Physics has not correctly interpreted Akhen or Akin. I know of five Oduduwa sovereignties that commonly use this name - Ijebu, Egba, Ijesha/Ekiti, Itsekiri, Bini/Edo. Edo cannot be an exception to the rule of usage and meaning. Perhaps if he would be unbiased in that interpretation, then you and everyone else can see where the dots connect. This is not about scholarship, but about truth!

Let me expand this argument broadly and include African-Americans. Slavery occurred in age of literature and coumentation. Their history was not an oral passdown from one ancestral generation to a descending one as it was in the historical timeline in which Lamurudu, Oduduwa and Ife all happened. If it had been, the same question and doubts would be raised to explain their ancestral root to Africa and it will be difficult to explain how Ifa could have lept over so many lands and peoples and a wide ocean to go settle in Brazil, Cuba, Puerto Rico and America. If literature, not oral tradition, was available at the time of IYoruba migration from AfroAsia, this matter would easily have been settled. But hold on a minute,. . . . the accounts of their journey and migration was probably written. In the many tragedies that befell Africa when Europeans arrived, discovery of such record would have been the first casualty of racism; afterall we witnessed the same with Samuel Crowther's chronicle of the roots of Yoruba people - it was supressed!

Again, this is nothing against or for scholarship and logic. . . . this pure search for the truth!

Does anyone know, . . . .I'm wondering why in all of the documentary nowhere did they show the full body cast where all the regalia and costumes can be fully displayed? Also, why is the museum not explaining the functions and symbolic representation of each of the article in the outfit? Example: the horn in the left hand, what does it stand for? The disks on the crown what do they mean? There are three different types of disks and in different configuration, what do these all mean?

May her soul rest in peace and may peace be with her, Amen.

Exotic has discovered that the name BINI is actually not Yoruba derived. It is not Itsekiri either. He has taken on the responsibility to teach and explain the ancestral roots of the Bini people and their noble kingdom.

Exotic, who are the Binis, please start from their historical beginning in antiquity. We are listening.

Physics,

No need for apology on misstatement, you are discussing with a broadmind and I overlook such minor errors.

1. Anyway, the "burial in Ife" claim has yet to be supported by anything in Benin tradition.

Bini is caught in individualism struggle and seems it is trying to exorcise itself from underneath the Oduduwa family tree, particularly on subject of heirarchy.  The silence in Bini does not in anyway indicate it did not happen.

2. The Oba of Benin dynasty is unlikely to have been contemporaneous with Orun Oba Ado (the dates for the Orun Oba Ado site were obtained by radiocarbon dating). I'm saying this because in order to stretch the Oba of Benin dynasty back to that time, the length of the reigns of many Obas would have to be inflated considerably.

In tradition with everything else we are revising, we will soon realize that some radiocarbon datings are indeed Best Practice process and not fool-proof  and must then be revised - similar to the argument on fingerprinting vs DNA evidence. A lot of innocent lives were lost to fingerprinting evidence connecting them to crimes that they were posthumously exonerated from by discovery in DNA sampling.

3.Where are the Obas of Lagos buried in Benin? What was the placed called? I haven't heard of this tradition and I would like to know where it was first stated and by who.

I dont know Bini to tell you where but I know Lagos history enough to confirm that for you.  All Oba of Lagos were buried in the palace - Idungaran - only beginning with Akintoye.  His predecessors were taken to Bini for burial. Akintoye was the 9th Oba.

4. My question about Iguegha was this: If you accept that this "Iguegha" from Benin tradition was indeed an Ife court artist who came to Benin, then what does that say about the Ife court? I don't accept the modification that makes his origin Ife, but for those that do, I can't see how they reconcile his name - and the fact that Edo speakers don't mutilate and massively bungle Yoruba names - with the claim about what his ethnicity was.

I do not accept that Iguegha was Ife court artist.  I have realized that Bini has different name for Yoruba identities - example like the meaning you just gave for Akenzua.  Like Ekhaladeran.  Is Iguegha another one of such double names?

5. As for the uses of the Ife bronzes, I have read about the theories relating to their use in funerals, but that is unrelated to the questions I posed about the burial of the king of Benin.

Those are theoretical accounts by Western researchers who in their backwardness think that if a head cast in Bantu is used for funeral then a Ife head must also be used for funeral.  

As for Akenzua it is "a kon ze uwa" (one has to appear modest before attaining prosperity) according to a tradition. I don't see the Akhenaten angle.

Physics, if you were not a Bini man I'd be upset with you for the blasphemy on Akenzua.  No Prince of an Empire need modesty to attain his birthright.  Names are attributes of the person.  Akin means Braveheart.  It is reserved for men of calvary - warriors and heroes.  Kings were also warriors and led their men to war.  So you will also find princes bearing Akin, in addition to Ade - crownhead.  If you say Aken in Bini does not mean braveheart, then I dispute the meaning you gave to it, knowing that it is most unbefitting of an attribute to give to a son whose birthright to prosperity is ordained by noble blood.  You want a crown prince to be bold and brave, not modest and aspiring to prosperity.