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@OmoAwo: May God Almighty reward you for your piece below. May God give justice to Reverend Pat Robertson. Dealing in Justice and Mercy in truth without a creation being able to complain is what Allah the Almighty is able to do.

Posted by: OmoAwo
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The topic of Violence in Islam is not new. The following write-up apparently by an non-Muslim on the topic probably answers it all.


In Defense of Pat Robertson
Pat Robertson and others are right about Islam being a violent religion. Look at the evidence for yourself.



Pat Robertson recently drew attacks from Muslim groups for calling Muhammad a "wild-eyed fanatic," among other things. Robertson, as usual, states the case in excessively inflammatory terms.

But it must be said that Robertson's basic critique of Islam as an inherently violent religion is accurate. This may not be politically correct to say, but one need only examine evidence.


Islam is not only violent in its current practice but at its core--which is to say in its sacred text, the Qur'an.
Remember that Muhammad was a military leader and as such involved personally in a great deal of brutality.


In the course of one battle, Muhammad's troops raid a village and kill everyone "until there was no survivor left." [Full citations provided below.] During another battle, Muhammad's troops killed many men but the "prophet" is disturbed that male infants weren't murdered too--and sends the troops back to finish the job.


The early Muslims are shown to be not only brutal but treacherous (a fact worth remembering as we consider peace treaties with Muslim nations).

In one battle, the Muhammadans promised peace to a tribe nearby. Then, when the other tribe members were lulled into complacency, Muhammad massacred "all the males." They kept the women as slaves.


The hatred for other faiths that we see in modern Islam has its roots in the Qur'an. The book tells how the Jews of the area had offered peace and Muhammad invited them to a ceremony to declare peace.

Instead, Muhammad massacred the 950 of them.


Muhammad even countenances brutality against his own people. When a group in the region reputedly insulted Allah by worshiping an idol, Muhammad led the slaughter of 3,000 people in a single day.

When some of his followers strayed by following non-Islamic sex practices, Allah literally directs Muhammad to slaughter another 24,000: "take all the heads of the people and hang them up before Allah against the sun."



Under the Sharia, the Islamic law, even the slightest infractions are punished with brutal violence. Some foods were not cooked according to Halal laws? Two men were immediately executed.

The notion that Allah is a forgiving God is comical. At one point, Muhammad had led his troops to victory and then had his troops mutilate the Instruments of the opponents.

He and his allies also set fire to a walled city and then waited for the victims to flee, at which point they were ambushed and slaughtered. Putting aside the historical accuracy of that account, is this really the "God of Peace" that Muslim leaders speak about?



The appalling treatment of women we see in Islamic countries today also has its roots in the Qur'an. When a mob of Muslims is attacking a man, he responds by offering his own daughter to be raped.

Allah teaches the Muslims that to in order repopulate a diminished tribe, they should go to a nearby field, wait for the women to come out, and then kidnap, rape and marry them.



This is all very consistent with the basic theology of Islam spelled out in chilling clarity by Muhammed himself: "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Finally, if there's any doubt about the fanatical nature of the faith, it should be dispelled with this chilling passage: "Happy shall they be who take your little ones [babies] and dash them against the rock."

If you are skeptical, I urge you to read the passages and citations yourself. It's there in black and white.



Hmmm, I seem to have made a few errors with the attributions. The passages you've just read are not from the Qur'an; they're from the Bible.

Where I say Muhammad, I actually meant either Moses, Joshua, David, or another biblical figure. "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" was uttered by Jesus. When I say "Allah," I actually meant God of the Hebrew Bible. And when I refer to Muhammed's troops, I actually meant the Hebrews.

There are obviously many other examples of brutality in the Bible (the best summary I've seen is Gregg Easterbrook's "Beside Still Waters".

Forgive my sloppiness, but it seemed useful to make a point, which is not that Christianity or Judaism are inherently violent but rather that the exercise of scanning ancient texts and pulling out passages depicting violence is of dubious value. Men and women of that earlier day were violent, and so was the God of their sacred book.

Citations:

For a particularly nice summary of the Bible's violent elements see Gregg Easterbrook's wonderful book, "Beside Still Waters."
Remember that Muhammad is a[b] military leader and as such is involved personally a great deal of brutality. In the course of one battle led by Muhammad, he raids a village and kills everyone "until their was not one survivor left." (This is actually from Numbers 21:35,[/b] the story of the taking of Bashan.)


After another battle, Muhammad's troops have slain many men but the "prophet" is disturbed that male infants weren't killed--so he sends the troops back to finish the job. (This actually occurs in Numbers 31:14-17, when Israel takes vengeance on the Mid'ianites.)



They are shown to be not only brutal but treacherous (history worth remembering as we consider peace treaties). In one battle, the Muhammadans promised peace to a tribe nearby and then, when they were lulled into complacency, massacred "all the males." They kept the women as slaves. (This is a story from Genesis 34:25, when Simeon and Levi take vengeance on Shechem, who had defiled their sister Dinah.)


The hatred for other faiths that we see in modern Islam has its roots in the Qur'an. At one point, the Jews of the area had offered peace and Muhammad invited them to a ceremony to declare peace. Instead, Muhammad massacred the 950 of them. (As Elijah does, in I Kings 18:40, to the followers of the false God Ba'al.)

But it goes beyond that; Muhammad even countenances brutality against his own. When one group in the region reputedly insulted Allah by worshiping an idol, Muhammad led the slaughter of 3,000 people in a single day. Another group of dissenters prompted a bloody massacre led by Muhammed that killed 14,700 people, according to the Qur'an. (When Korah leads a rebellion against Moses and Aaron, a plague sent by God kills 14,700, Numbers 16:49).

Later, when some of his followers strayed by following non-Islamic sex practices, Allah literally directs Muhammad to slaughter another 24,000: "take all the heads of the people and hang them up before Allah against the sun." (This slaughter occured in Numbers 25:9, when some Isarelites were found to have joined the Moabites in improper sex.)

Under the Sharia, the Islamic law, even the slightest infractions are punished with brutal violence. In one case, some foods were not cooked according to Halal laws, and the two men were immediately executed. (The Lord smites Nadab and Abi'hu, the sons of Aaron, in Leviticus 10:2, for offering an unholy sacrifice.)



The notion that Allah is a forgiving God is comical. At one point, some people had the temerity to question one of the dietary laws and Allah supposedly responded by sending poisonous snakes to kill people. At another point, Muhammed had led his troops to victory but then proceeded to murder and then mutilate the Instruments of the opponents. In one case, they set fire to a walled city and then wait of the fleeing victims and slaughter them as they try to escape. (As Joshua and the people of Israel do to the city of Ai in Joshua 8:22.)


The appalling[b] treatment of women in Islamic countries today has its roots in the Qur'an. In one case, a mob of Muslims is attacking a man and he responds by offering his own daughter to be raped. (As in Judges 19:24.[/b])

In some cases, it specifies that women who are raped should be executed. (One of these cases appear in[b] Deuteronomy 22:23-27.)[/b]

In another case, Allah literally instructs the Muslims that to repopulate a diminished tribe they should go to a nearby field, wait for the women to come out, kidnap, rape and marry them. (In Judges 21:20-24, Benjamite soldiers are told to repopulate their tribe by kidnapping the women of Shiloh.)


This is all very[b] consistent and the theology that undergirds this is spelled out in chilling clarity, directly from Muhammad himself: "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." (This quote is actually attributed to Jesus in the New Testament, Matthew 10:34.)[/b]


Finally, if there's any doubt about the fanatical nature of the faith, it should be dispelled with this chilling passage: "Happy shall they be who take your little ones [babies] and dash them against the rock." (This quote is actually from the Psalms, 137:9, when the exiled Israelites dream of revenge against Babylon.)

Any question or at least comments?

@KunleOshob:
WHO IS JESUS EXCEPT ONE OF THE BODIES OF TRINITY, AS A SON IN THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT IN THE EQUATION.


HOW THEN THAT TRINITY IS NOT MENTIONED AS LONG AS JESUS IS MENTIONED? ASSUMING THAT IT IS NOT MENTIONED, THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION IS EMBEDDED IN TRINITY, NONETHELESS.


READ YOUR BIBLE AGAIN; I KNOW ABOUT THOSE WHO AMOUNG THE CHRISTIAN WHO HAVE DIFFERENT OPINION ABOUT SONSHIP OF JESUS, OR THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD, BUT THEY ARE STILL CHRISTIANS. THE LARGER CHRISTIAN BODY CONSIDERS THEM AS DEVIANTS, THOUGH.

@KunleOshob: What did I say wrong? I only emphasised what makes a person a true Christian, according to the Biblical verse. I simply call attention to what is not part of the ingredients that will make a pure religion.


I could be wrong in other things, but my pointing out that trinity is not on the list in the Bible, according to that verse, is not one of those situation. What you can do however is to disprove that verse yourself as incomplete and argue logically, presenting a robust piece to buttress your view.


I need education and you are not supplying it. If something like this is presented about the Qur'an and or Hadith, I will check it out for myself. If I find it in the Qur'an, I will go to the Tafsir and hadith on the matter. I will read the explanation so that I can present a good Islamic view according to the Qur'an and Sunnah. I will not make anything up by myself, because there should not be any interpretation that must go against what Muhammad (as) said or against the Qur'an.



An example is the statement of Allah that no one will enter Paradise except that he "passes over" hell. This is in Surah Mariam. I think the verse is 71.


Allah then said it is an already determined "decree." I remember a pseudo pundit, who had claimed that she was raised a muslim, before she converted to Christianity. She erronously said that all muslim had been promised to enter hell by that verse. You see passing over something is not the same as being in it.


So I went to the tafsir. I asked every speaker of arabic that I know to tell me how many words that can be used for passing over. I listed them, including what Allah uses in the Qur'an.

You as a Yoruba will appreciate this; the yoruba language, like any other african language is so rich that a word, based on its intonation and usage can mean many things. And a thing could be expresses by many words. Sugbon, firi firi o joo okolonbo. Oun to ba ye wu, lafi nwe un. Aron ope, o jo owo alabawun.

You therefore can not say that passing over is the same as being inside what you are passing over. A thing that you may see as you are passing over it.



But God Almighty Allah did not restrict this condition of passing over to the believer only, but to all mankind. That no one will be able to reach Paradise, except everyone will have to pass over hell first.

This therefore should bring to the mind of anyone who is wise: What happens those who are not believers who will not be admitted to hell when they are in this "pass over" stage? They will have to fall in the fire of hell, since they are not meant for paradise.



Now explain your Trinity by using what Jesus said about it, or what those who saw and followed Jesus, or their followers, or there folloewrs, or their followers or their followers said?

Do you have the word that you are trying to talk about in any page of the Bible, Old and New testaments, including the psalms? If you don't have it anywhere, how can you defend it?


How does it exist? How did you get the title? Can you read a Book that has no title and come up with a singly agreed title, to everyone?


Is it possible that a person can go to a nameless school and tells you that he is a University? Can he be in a nameless course work and says that he is studying medicine?

@Ndipe: You are insincere, man. Read the Genesis verse and see if any of these is a character of All Powerful, All knowing, All capable Creator of all things!

quote; 25 And when[b] he saw that he prevailed not against him[/b], he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. unquote

The encounter between Jacob and God is numerous proofs of the manifestation of Jesus Christ prior to his physical incarnation.

How many times did Jesus manifest himself on earth, including him as King of Salem and then as a member of the party that visted Abraham to announce the birth of Isaac prior the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc?

You have any more occasion of manifestations? This is the behavior of God who is declared that no eyes can see Him and live? And then the reincarnation happened? A good story fantastically told.

Oh boy, stop it.

@Pataki and davidylan:

Pataki on July 29, 2008, 09:32 AM
Now I am sure there is an Islamic forum where you can comfortably type out your IGNORANCE blissfully and your fellow moderator and Islamic bigots can Allahu Arkban you for your esteemed knowledge.

I seriously hate deceit and it such drivel like that of yours here that drives me off at times from posting frequently on the religion section. You and your fellow Islamic brothers and sisters have solely decided to turn the religion section to your Islamic praying ground.

If you want to denigrate Christianity, go your Islamic section and do it there. The same God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob which you muslims have[b] falsely incorporated [/b] into your qu'ran is the same God you are proclaiming HE cannot prevail over a mere mortal.

Wake up and smell the roses, since i don't know if you are folgercoffee drinker. Aren't you ashamed to read in a book that you say its completely the words of God, when a foolish idea of a mere mortal prevailing over God takes a center stage?

Should you not walk away from such a book because it clearly betrays itself that it is not a book to be considered words of Almighty God?

Now as to your uneducated statement that we in Islam falsely incorporated into our Qur'an the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc; are you not aware that God is not only God and Lord, but Creator and Cherisher, etc as well?

Now tell me who is the Creator of all, including the Jews and gentiles, Christians and nonchristians? If you do not have any other creator than Him, alone, therefore, know that God is no less the God of all.


The only difference, in reverse is that these noble men that you mentioned above are higher than me and you because they are elects of God, therefore they are more God conscious as individual.

Did you know that Ibrahim was from Iraq? Go figure.

BTW, do not think I will be drawn into arguing aimlessly with you. I have read most of your posting, and seriously you do not strike me as someone with a mindset of a serious discussant. Probably your fellow anti-Islamic religion can engage you, I have long arisen from that mud.

I am not sure what you mean by long risen from mud? But if it is that you have enlightment, good for you. But you still need to know that God is Singular, and not gods, like 3!

That is when you begin to seriously arisen from the mud. Don't be delutional in your thoughts. As long as you cling to all these idea of splicing God into 3 or even 2, but remaining wholly 1, you are still in the mud! Bawo ni, ojare? Aa ki nri aja ka ma re!



@Davidylan:

This is amazing!!! Indeed this is a shock!

Don't forget that Muslim's God is not God that is wrestling, becoming multiple god(s), or son god, or father god, or holy spirit god. Islamic God is One without a beginning or an end, nor parents and or progeny.


So you should not be shocked that I defended the Islamic God Almighty Creator, and you will remember that Christain gods are not the same as the Muslim God!

@VeriLee: I answered the question in another thread alread; Question for olabowale. Man, go read the darn thing there.

Quote]"What God the father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world" (James 1:27)
[quote][/quote]If the above is pure and genuine religion, as it is recorded in james 1;27, then i am very certain therefore, that believe in Trinity or anything in its form, etc, is not essential to be in pure and genuine religion.

You guys should read your own quote again before you bury your head in trinity because jame 1;27 says it is not important, because what is important are written and trinity aint one of them!

@JeSoul:

hehe
Alhaji you shot yourself in the foot, see as you just exposed yourself. The fact is islam is lost without christianity, or better yet islam is just plain lost.

Is KFC lost without McDonald? When a question is asked by Jayon about terrorism in Islam, considering thathe is a Christian, I need to remind him that once and even now some people believe that Christianity has a whole lotta terrorists in it.

It is there prudent for me to bring out to the reminder of the days when the Christians used to terrorise the whole world, with the Bible and cross in one hand and guns and weap in the other.


The colonizers brought about their religion along with their intention of land and mineral resources grabbing mentality. Ask the Native Americans.

The have never forgotten. Since you like the Simpsons, yesterday they show how the whole Springfield township was moved, because of the atrocities of the pilgrims.


In Yorubaland there is an expression that goes something like this: What ever it is similar to is what you compare what you are describing. The pattern on the palm tree does not resemble the forehand of the Turtle.

I could have used the jewish terrorising people in the past and now the palestines as my response, but i want you christians to know that you have gone through the same experience as the muslims may be now going through.

Is that shooting myself in the foot? Maybe I should conveniently deny the fact that there are still people who continue to feel some form of atrocious behaviors from the christians; see the You tube video: Christian misionary atrocities. hehe.

And most knowledgeable muslim will not accept the title the label when you call them so. They will not call themselves knowledgeable, either. Its looked at as a means of arrogance. Islam abhor arrogance and arrogant people.

@VeriLee:

5) The most cruel, violent, barbaric and inhuman.

So guys display your knowledge of the great book.

We do not have your list of (5), above in the Qur'an. Death could be humane in many instances. Killing may be humane, and not barbaric nor violent, or cruel, in many instances and conditions.

When you read the Qur'an, it says one should deal with others with justice, mercy, etc. When a vile person is killed so that evil is not spread in the society, that qualifies for justice and or mercy, on every one.



However if you are the type who is extreme in your liberal concept, not knowing the boundary, then I will not be surprised to know that you will not care to stop a person who is intent on doing a greater evil on the community, like killing s many people, men and women, young and old, unjustifiable, even if you hav to kill him!



I on the other hand, along with the majority of mankind regardless of religious affiliation see the need to eliminate the hardened evildoers from the community, even if they have to be killed while they are in the mist of their evil doings.

@Huxley:

Quote from: Negro_Ntns on Today at 03:10:53 AM
@Post

There is more evil than you have revealed my brother.

Did you not see where it was promised that for those that blaspheme against Abraham and the children of Abraham and the tribes of Abraham;

, a day shall come when Huxley's IP address shall be revealed;
, and the IP from both his desktop and his laptop shall lead men to his whereabouts;
, and on a day when the sun shall cast its shadows on the horizon;
, Huxley shall be sneaked upon;
, like thieves in the night, men shall reveal their presence to him;
, and on that day Huxley shall have no cover, nor a relief;
, and the blasphemer Huxley shall be made to account for what his hands and thoughts have sent before this day.


Huxley, Keep it coming; it is coming up with you!




Is this a threat? Why ar eyou threatening me?

What you will find, except a muslim is ignorant, and we have plenty among us, though completely wrong, is that a sincere question of islam will be given sincere honest answer, directly and relevant to the question.

I will do that with you. The answer may not satisfy your bleading heart liberal warped conscience, but will have an answer anyway. This was why I presented the idea of your mom being attacked, yesterday to see what you will do.

Since i am not sure that you are married and have any children. Maybe you discard the african quality of having a family for the eurocentic terrible quality of not caring for family, hence i used mom and child relationship in your case. lets have a hearty discussion whenever you feel like it. Islam is very complete and stands very clearly on all matters of religion.

@Huxley:

Do you know of any evil passages in the Abrahamic scriptures - the Bible and the Ko-ran? Here are a few that would fall way below modern standards and which are definitely evil by any standard;

Bible:

1) Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
2) Exodus 22:29 �Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.�
3) All of Leviticus (Example Leviticus 27: 27 - 30, god asking for human sacrifices , yummy)

And this is what my New Century Version of the bible says about Lev 27: 29.

"If anyone is given for the purpose of being destroyed, he cannot be brought back; he must be put to death."


Kor-an:

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians], until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)


Can you come up with some more?

First, there is nothing called Kor-an, it is Qur'an. Kaf in your Kor-an is not the same with Qaf of the Qur'an. The ' is Ain, in the Qur'an. Its complecated, and I know your heart is not yet matured enough to take it, because of your hardheartedness, which is still leading you to disbelief in the existence of Singular Lord God the Almighty Creator Allah.

What you will find out, is that your can ask sincerely gebuine questions on any verse of the Qur'an. We have tafsir and ahadith which are the primary sources to explain the Verses of Qur'an.


In a nutshell the three verses you listed above, though labelled incorrectly as to your assignment of number to the verses in the chapters they occurred, I have answered them in your thread directed to my name.



In short, 9 Verse 27 gives the muslims the authority to expand Islam, routing out the people who believe in falsehood, while holding out from entering the light of Islam.

The people of the Book, though used to be believers, originally when their individual books were being revealed to the individual messenger and or prophet, they became deviant, starting from sometime after the messenger/prophet was already away from their community.


They thereby began to practice their religion according to their desire, changing the content of their books, to fit their new procedure which they invent in worship. Hence the book is corrupted and became inpure with the impure religion. To therefore claim that they follow their prophet still is false.


When they saw that a new prophet had arrived, which was the standing tradition known in human history, they refused to accept him, and rejected the authentic Sharia which guides the heart to righteousness.

Hence they were disbelievers, who should be subdued and not be respected. Please refer to my entry on "Question for Olabowale."



And as to 9 verse 123, which you label as 121, it simply let us know that the disbelievers (the word infidel is not an Islamic word, but made up by the nonmuslims, since they have it in the bible, (NT), they wanted to have it in the Qur'an as well. This is wrong) around the muslims, if given the chance, they will utterly destroy the muslims, by waging ways against the muslims.


Infact, they are always looking for ways to undermine Islam. Why would a person who have no sincere respect for God be expected to respect you anyhow, if your sole worship and focus is to God Almighty? This is the condition that the muslims are in, always.

The crusades in Europe and Middle east waged upon the muslims, etc and finally bringing about the Spanish inquisition on the muslims, etc, are good less recent examples of how the muslims are the preyed upon people, when ever the opportunity arises.

We can not doscount the present state of wars and future wars that will be waged upon the muslims, by whoever is in power, as long as they are not muslims.



Finally as 5; 51 clearly indicates, we can see that even the Christian has a wing that supportsIsrael. Always trying to bring about the so called inevitable Armageddon, thinking that they will force the Hands of God to bring an end to Islam and of course the easy picking of the jews who would refuse Jesus.


A non muslim friend is always trying to undermine Islam. They will never be happy until you join their party.

Let me give you my own personal experience. I am in high stake industry. I have been approached by many Nigerian Christian pastors, some of them called themselves prophets.

I have told them never to say their prophets around me because i know that they are liars. All of this is in New York City. Even though I have a facade of a typical muslim, they still want to pray for me so that my job is well.

I will not deny anyone to pray for me, just as long as i do not ask them, especially the nonmuslim and as long as no one is asking me to participate. I really will not and i do not care for their prayers, anyway. But they never stop, even as i let them know that my belief is not something I compromise in.


Their desire is that I become like them. This tells you you can not take them as bosssom buddy, an intimate friend. they will undermine your religion at the first opportunity. You can not take a nonmuslim as a greater friend over a muslim.

@Huxley:

But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
—1 Timothy 2:15, NIV

How are men saved?

I quite agree with your question. It seems to me that women can be saved from the New Testament point of view if she continues in faith, love and holiness with propriety, along with childbearing. No one of the two groups will be exclusively sufficient to save a woman. The case is dire therefore for a woman who do not couple continue in faith, etc, with childbearing. It is the same with a woman who does childbearing alone.

@Tpia

Its been a long time since I saw this particular verse, but I think you may be reading it wrong, Huxley.

I'm not sure but "saved through childbearing" here may refer to having a safe delivery. ie as opposed to having complications or a fatal one.

You are not even sure. You should do a little bit of research to find out what Timothy the author of that verse meant before you give unsubstantiative meaning or opinion, and then have the audacity to ask Huxley that if french is his language, while you quipped that he is reading the verse literally. How is he supposed to read it, with a twist or reading a foot note as to the state of the mind of the author? Where is that material to make a person not read or give it a literal meaning, exactly what the verse said. He asked you what about men, you have not responded. By the way Huxley lives in England, and not in France. I believe he is a good writer of the Queen's version of the English language.




@Davidylan:

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Rather than read this with hypocritical lenses, it would behove us to go see what Brother Peter was refering to here:

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Its easy to see what 1 Peter 2:15 was talking about, the "saved" used there did not imply salvation of the soul but succour from the curse placed on every childbearing woman in Gen 3:16.

Huxley quoted 1 Timothy 2;15, you are talking about 1 Peter 2;15. If both of you are correct, then both Timothy and Peter wrote exact same thing. You guys used to argue that there were only 4 canonized Gos[els, because the others which were discarded and not entered into the Bible, are more or less a repeat of verses in the 4 accepted Gospels.


Here is my question, if Timothy and Peter have the same exact words in their same numbered verses, why is it that one of them is not discarded aong the same reason that the other non canonized Gospels were not entered in your Bible? That is just a good question that arise from these two verses having to be exactly alike.


Apart from you not giving any approach to the core of huxley's question, how is man being saved since woman's is having childbearing, is in addition to her continue in faith, etc. But Genesis 3:16, is a commanded curse, which includes the very thing, Childbearing!

It is in this state of childbearing that they will have sorrow and it is by having husband will they have desire towards that husband who is also the one to rule them. To simply states that woman will have the curse of Genesis 3: 16 removed as you stated in 1 Peter 2: 15 and Huxley's 1 Timothy 2: 15, is a pure disgenious presentation from you.



Having a husband who she desires and by gender authority rules over her, is the legal way for her to get pregnant. It is at childbearing itself that the sorrow wll be fulfilled, all of them as part of the Biblical curse of Genesis 3 :16.

How you came about, you and Timothy of Huxley's quoted verse and Peter of your own quoted verse came up with the woman being saved at childbearing is a mystery, especially when a woman who does not childbear will not have the curse of Genesis?

How can you use the Succour from the curse, thereby on the woman who is having the pain/sorrow which is experience at delivery, childbearing?

Jaheda rejected her strict Muslim upbringing and ran away from home when she was 17.

Making the break led her to gain the confidence to discover her identity.

Most people of ignorance believe that the person who is born into a muslim family is automatically a muslim. This belief holds only until he or she is matured, reaching the age or puberty, continuing to practice Islam. However when such a person goes against Islam injuctions, allowing for themselves what is forbidden, and forbidden for themselves what is commanded, then they are no more muslims.

To be a muslim is not a race or ethnic identity thing, otherwise there would not have been any arab nonmuslims. It is not a family thing, otherwise, you would not have had people who left Islam, yet they are still member of their family, not rejected by any of its members. Islam is an individual thing, whereby the said individual accepts that the true God Almighty, Who calls Himself Allah is the Only God and worthy ofall worship, obedience without reservation and that Muhammad (as), is His last messenger and prophet, being the only one for all of mankind.

This simply and direct individual thing, an individual relationship with God Almighty Allah, hinges on and with Qur'an instructions and commandments and the explanation and process from Sunnah and Ahadith of Prophet Muhammad (as). Since deviant sexual behavior/relationship is prohibited, whoseever engages in any, and do not struggle to against the tendencies, and discontinues it as soon as he/she realises that it is forbidden, is going against the commandment of Allah.

Homosexuality was the reason that the People of prophet Lut (as) was wiped out. If that story is not enough for anyone to guard themselves away from that kind of tendencies and behavior, then, they deserve whatever come to them in punishment fromAllah. I love sex for example. Am passionate about beautiful women. But i do not desire more that what is permissable to me as a muslim man, and I do not lust after whoever is forbidden for me. If a person has homosexual tendency, he/she should never act on it and try hard to struggle against displaying its physical traits.

Homosexualism is the same, if it is not even worse than a wealthy Muslim in his home, who constantly buys pigmeat for his own consumptions, while he has halal meat shop all over his neighborhood. He is very wealthy, and not that he couldn't affort the meat, that is acceptable to eat in his religion, but he left it alone, and even left Jewish and christian meats, but decided to go for pigmeat. What benefit is his Salah, when he intentionally didobey the commandment of God? This is the condition of the homosexuals. It will be better for a woman or man not to have sex, but to engage in the wrong pattern of sexuality. Allah the Almighty is the Judge of all. He is also the Knower of all.

@Davidylan: As stated by me, and littleb, the only one who is correct, among mankind, is Muhammad (AS). If I shot littleb geneology in the foot, or he shot mine, the issue is this: Who shot the idea of 3 in 1 gods in the Bible, when the Bible says, from older prophets and Jesus repeating it, Oh Israel, your Lord God is One Lord? Now which part is shooting each other in your case? To respond to that young David, is a waste of time. E fi mi sile pelu david. Ko ni rimi fin. Mo mo pe omo daada ni. To ba ko ja aye e, ma paruwo mo. Afun mi lowo Ijebu Ode si Ijebu Ode. lol.

Huxley:

How do you make a peaceful war with infidels and deal firmly with them?

The word, "infidels," is not originally from Islam. Non muslims are mainly referered to as disbelievers, and because of bad behavior they are compared to donkeys, etc. Now, if somebody comes to your mom's home and begin to beat her and the old frail woman may die from the heavy and many hard blows. Your mom is yelling that the beast that is abusing her not to kill her. You happen to hear your mom yelling that huxley help me and get this mad man to stop. You will react and rush to trying to save your mother or what?


But when you get to your mothers bedroom, you found the bedroom locked. Will you not force it open? As you slam your heavy body against the floor, it was flung open, and to your surprise, theman came with a gun which he left on the table near the door as you enter. But what this guy is now doing is that he raised his handup, in it is a long stemmed sharp knife, positioned to strike your 70 something year old mother. Here is your test as a son of this woman who is now in a certain peril/danger.

Will you pick up the gun and ready to shoot at the man, while your mother is bleding and crying for mercy? Interestingly, in your bleeding heart liberalism, you yelled at the man to stop, that you have a gun in your hand. He just turned around and says to you tht he knows that you are liberal and can't stand the sight of blood. He then reassured you that after he kills your mother, he is is coming to kill you. Now, he turns back to your mother who is laying there under the weight of his massive hand which he is using to hold her down.


As he now, reaied himself, to strike your mother, to bury the long sharp double blade of this knive in her, to kill her and then to concentrate his effort to killing you, too, what will you do? Will you not pull the trigger of this gun to end this man's life and save your mother? At least try to destroy his hands so that you can disarm him? Will you not do any of these two, but let your stupid unafrican liberalism dictated the course of your killing ypur own mother by being an accessory to her death and probably your own suicide, if this guy turns around and kill you, considering that he is younger, bigger and probably powerful than you, at least operates with vengeance?

If you will kill this bastard, then, know that peaceful religion, should not be considered to mean stupidly rediculously peaceful. There is a time that a person will have to engage in self preservation, even if it means that somebody else dies. Yet the concept of peace would never have been lost, through it.

@Davidylan:
Here is what I got concerning the clan of Yunus from the Children of Israel:

The Story of the Prophet Yunus (pbuh)

Yunus (pbuh) was the son of Amittai, from the clan of Judah. Allah sent Yunus (pbuh) as a Prophet to the people of Ninewa (North Western Iraq). The towns people we're idolaters and very proud of this. They had been worshipping idols for generations. The stubborn people of the town refused to even listen to Yunus's (pbuh) teachings. Yunus (pbuh) warned them, that a great punishment would come to them from Allah. The shameless people of the village said to him "If Allah wants to punish them, then so be it."

Now tell me where did you get your below quoted information, as written?

One more example - Jonah (fraudulently depicted as Yunus) is alleged to be a 3rd generation descendant of Benjamin the son of Jacob. But this same Jonah was not even born until after King David was long long dead!!!

@Davidylan:

The essence of my rebuttals was 3-fold:
1. The presence of "unimportant" errors in the so-called genealogy is a clear proof that no one interested in truth should take it seriously. When a "genealogy" claims that Jonah is the third generation son of Benjamin then we need to be VERY careful.

Like i said before, if aint in Qur'an and hadith andthe sources of said information is not from either, it aint worth reading. Just like the sufi who developed a concept that struggle, in its appropriate form that is situation appropriate or the ahmadiyyah who believed that a prophet came after Muhammad are to me deviant, and will mean nothing to me, in the places that they differ, from authentic teaching of islam, in the Qur'an and sunnah, then, it is the same with anything, including the so called geneology that is eating your "grapes." However i want you to present your Jonah evidence.

2. Mohammad himself actively discouraged tracing his genealogy and had this to say - from Ibn Sa‘d:

,  he on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas; he said: Verily the Prophet (may peace be upon him), WHENEVER he related his genealogy, DID NOT GO BEYOND MA‘ADD IBN ‘ADNAN IBN UDAD, then he kept quiet and said: The narrators of genealogy ARE LIARS, since Allah says: "There passed many generations between them."
Ibn ‘Abbas says: The Prophet would have been informed of the genealogy (prior to Adnan by Allah) if he (Prophet) had so wished.

,  he on the authority of ‘Abd Allah. Verily he recited "(The tribes of) ‘Ad and Thamud and those after them; NONE SAVETH ALLAH KNOWETH THEM." The genealogists ARE LIARS.

3. Ma'n Ibn 'Isa al-Ashja'i al-Qazzaz (silk-merchant) informed us; he said: Mu'awiyah Ibn Salih informed us on the authority of Yahya Ibn Jabir who had seen some Companions of the Prophet and said: The people of Banu Fuhayrah came to the Prophet and said to him: You belong to us. He replied: Verily, (the archangel) Gabriel has informed me that I belong to Mudar. (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Volume I, p. 4)[/b]This is yet more evidence that the so-called "genealogy" [b]is not based on any serious historical source but is merely dependent on spurious claims such as a "revelation" from the Angel Gabriel.

This guy, David does not believe in existence of Angel Gabreil, from his statement above. It also seems to me that he does not believe in "REVELATION." Allah's messenger on the matter of Tarawih, the long prayers made in the month of ramadan, known as Ashamu in Yorubaland, did not make it more that 2 or 3 days in leading the congregation.

His reason was that he did not want the making of it and or the congregational making of it an obligation on his community. So people can make it individually or congregationally. The number of rakah can also be different, 2 times 2, or any part up to 2 times 10.

Further in Surah Kahf, the people who were in the cave with their dog were not 100% known for sure by many people, except those who Allah gives the knowledge, even though the number is in there. The wisdom of not emphasising on the geneology maybe the same way that the muslims consider the wives of the prophet as their own mother, while the Qur'an declares that Muhammad is not the father of any of you "men," rather he is the messenger and a seal of prophethood.



David, have you ever asked yourself what did each of the sons of Jacob? Why was there not such a long piece of information on any except Joseph, who they all bowed their head to? This reminds me of the Jacob who you foolish say prevailed over God and man, is put in a position whereby he had to humble himself before his own son, Joseph.

Now do you see the discrepancies in your Bible, that a person who is honored by God, and he never did anything after that that will warant him  being humiliated can not be debased as to prostrate his face before his own son who is now in a position of authority in another land. David whom you called adulterer was not ven made subjected to any of his sons, including Solomon the wise.


Now tell me why would Jacob have to bow to his son, jaseph and his brothers, including Judah also bowed his face? Why didn't we know so much or almost nothing about the daughters of jacob, since we are talking about geneology? Why is the Bible so quite about all the persons in the lines of each and every prophet, up to Prophet Jesus, your lord? Tell me all the names of the 4 generation of the children of Adam. No do less work, give me the names of all of his grandchildren, they will not be as many as their own children.

1. Ishmael indeed settled in the desert of Paran BUT there is clear historical and geographical evidence to prove that Paran was NO WHERE near Mecca but was actually much closer to Egypt!

Liar, David. I can clearly state that you are a bigtime liar now. Afterall, you are my son, just not begotten. I leave that title to my brother. You are not even sure where paran is located, hence you use the general deceitful expression, "Much closer," to blindfold us. Well, it does not work.


Your sttement is almost like the statement of ilorin people, where Sola saraki comes from. When these people call themselves hausas, instead of the yorubas that they truly are, you can't but wonder what kind of demented mind will run away from his own heritage like that, especially when Sola is clearly a yoruba word and not indigenous to any of the many norther tribes. But the Hausas call them bastards, meaning they are not authentic.

This is how i read your not in Makka but closer to Egypt statement. How then did Zamzam water came about. Can you and your history professors tell us? Oje master, David you. I will not even dignify your statement any further if you continue to lie this foolishly.

2. There is NO proof that Ishmael's lineage gave rise to Mohammad's generation. This is nothing but wild unsubstantiated conjecture which is contradicted by several muslim scholars.

Can I say therefore that there is no proof that your paternal bloodline comes from Ijebu Ode? Will that be accurate? I hiss and just laugh at the silly thought.

Whenever the quran is caught in "little" discrepancies that cannot be explained we start getting excuses such as "quran only shed light . . .", why indeed is the quran so vague on such issues that the bible took extremely seriously if indeed both documents are from the same God?

The fact is that Qur'an is different from your Bible. We don't have to know that a man spilled his seed outside, especially if the woman did not get pregnant. We leave that to the porn industrial blueprint book of yours. When Qur'an says a man can enter his wife, it did not say anything about Instruments or spilling in or out any seed. Those who are married know what matrimonial entering means!

This idea that all the biblical prophets came with the same message of "belief in one God" has been debunked several times. Samuel, Elijah e.t.c. all came with specific assignments . . . much more important than "belief in one God".

Only a disbeliefer speaks like you. And I am not surprised that you know something much more important than "belief in One god." Please tell me one of them and I will personally debunk that it is under the umbrella of the belief that God is one, it that statement is any good.

Its apparent you are not doing the very thing you recommend to me. Historical sources clearly show that mohammad's lineage can only be correct before Adnan and not beyond.
Paran is clearly not in Mecca but between Palestine and Egypt according to historical sources.

Will an Igbo man in Aba, who has never visited the Yorubaland can truly tell an Oyo man who have lived all his life in the Yoruba enclave say that Ijebu people are not Yorubas or that their land is not in Yorubaland? This is what you and your non Arabic professors are doing, with whatever lies you posted from their material. I wonder about ibrahim and ismail erecting of the Kaaba, especially when there is a place there called Station of Ibrahim. Even the pagan arabs knew about this station before the islam of Muhammad (AS) was preached in their mist.

If the truth is indeed so clear there would be no need of "minor differences"

Since you eat pork, and the expression, you are what you eat, I will say your piggy frame of mind will not let you see the truth if it stare you directly, without any thing between you and it. They say on wall street, the bull wins, and the bear wins, only the pig loses.

And we keep asking, where are these "revelations" in the quran? Are they lost?

Read th Qur'an, you will find it. Since you are so dishonest, i will not help you but to just tell you to research them. You only blindly and deceitfully ask question without the ability to search the source of the information out before going on a rampage of questioning. If I wanna know what trinity means I go on search engine. I then may ask if trinity as a word is in the Bible. I can also ask if it is in the Qur'an.

The problem is that you people seem to be obsessed with "clearing truth from falsehood" ONLY from the christian perspective. Are you also clearing truth from falsehood with the buddhists, Sikhs, sango worshippers? Why the undue obsession with the bible, the jews and the christians?

All of you are disbelievers. We clarify each and all of you, together. While you and the Jews are Kafir, the others are Mushrik as well as kafir.

@Davidylan

We keep asking the very same question - How is it possible that a muslim can confidently speak about islam without feeling the need to hide under the skirts of christianity?

The five pillars of islam; Which one is a derivitive of Christian or jewish tenets? I confess that no god is worthy of my worship/or exist, except The God Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger. The salah prayer, the giving of Zakat, the fasting known as saum, from before dawn to dusk, the time the sun sets, and making hajj to Makka. Tell me which one is a thread or piece from the skirt of Christianity? By the way, I wear a wrap around known as Hizzah, is that what is the Christian skirt? The wrap around is similar to the old ibo people wrap themselves with. Is that christian Skirt too?

Again, the fact that you do not understand the concept of the trinity does not make it false.

The fact that you develop a concept in a book, without a title of that concept in the same book, bring to mind its fishyness. It is a lie. Let me help you. If the people who discovered the gene strands, just talk about it, wthout ever write the word, "Gene," anywhere in any of the books that talk about genetics and genoms, then i am sure when they give you presentation in a lecture about their findings, and they will say that they are talking about "Gene," there will be looks of bewilderment about a claimed substance without a Title. You are believing in falacy of 3 in 1. Shameful thing.

I'd rather be a joint heir with Christ than a slave. I'm sure you knew how you treated your own househelps, i doubt they ever got anything more than the crumbs that fell off your table.

The crumble off the table. Good one dave, and, it reminds me of the statement of jesus himself who made a human being a dog because the person is not Jewish, even with the crumb off the table, they were not good for it, if it fell from the jewish table. By the way, how did you treat your own househelps, Omo aje butta? Liar to the teeth. I hear you loud and clear. If you are joint heir, than a slave, how is the slave bold enough to talk to their Master directly, while you a heir install some other "heir," to talk for you? That is silly. Rather a condition developed because you are not sure.

All that is meaniingless linguistic gymnastics. No one is interested in "names" . . . the God of the bible aint the same as that of the quran. Its really not by force.

You ae right. Whileyou keep pedalling 3 in 1, I concentrate on 1 God. I know my God, Allah, but who is yours, the father, Jehovah, or the son, Jesus or the holy spirit, with no name? Choose wisely Davidylan? You see how ridiculous your presentation is? Allahu Akbar Kabirah.

@Queenisha:

Is that geneology recorded in the Koran ?
So they've now started using extra koranic texts besides the hadiths to prove the Koran.
Didn't they tell us the koran was complete?

Adam , Ibrahim, Ismail, the tribe of Quraishi and Muhammad are all in the Qur'an. Where do you have any difficultyafter this? In medicine, when you perform an operation, if you are surgeon, I don't think you will tell anyone, when you relate the story to include how many times you blinked your eyes, how long you stood still before you moved your feet. Neither would you related the song you sang under your breath, on the way to the theater. These will be mundane events in the story of the successful operation. Qur'an does not deal in mundane things.


You will not read how Muhammad walked the street of Madina or between the houses in small back street/alley ways of Makka. I know the Bible is filled with all of those, including deceitful ways of acquiring properties, whereby a type of leave was used to separate good ewe that produce babies, from the almost barren ones. Woman, you are obsessed with geneology to proof what point, exactly?


If it is in the Qur'an and explained in the hadith and sunnah, and any material that does not get its sources from these two is unimportant to me. Salah is commanded in the Qur'an and ahadith explained it all, and, so are other aspects of Islam. What you should


@Davidylan:

There's a lot more errors in the alleged genealogy that even mohammad himself disowned beyond Adnan!!!  

It is generally agreed by quranic scholars that much of the genealogy beyond adnan is heavily dependent on Jewish historical sources, the only differences being the deliberate and fraudulent subversion of original jewish names to read arabic.

In Yorubaland, the Ondo people call, Benson beenii, while the Ibadan call it benshin. Which one is correct, benson of the Oyinbos, or the beenii of the ondos or the benshin of the ibadans? Are they not correct to each of the individual tongue speaker?  You will see that it is the Jews and by extensions the Christian who are so gone hoo about the issue of the Arabs and muhammad, so much that prior to Muhammad (AS) being sent, they have bastardized the relationship of Ismail with his fathr and of course with his younger brother.  Whats David, English or Jewish pronounciation?


They even claim Ibrahim was a jew, and not a person from Iraq's old city known as Ur. We must have this question, is Ur inhabitted by non Jewish people or jewish people used to leave there before he move? Was he not a tribeman of the tribe of which he was born? Did the tribe known as Jew started on him or after him, since you can not prove that the people of Ur were jews.


I just want to use a terrible story that occurred in New york this past few weeks to illustrate this point; A naturalized US citizen from Nigeria, who rose to a position of authority in the employ of the city stole almost 1 million USD from the funds of the department he worked. When they arrested him, he suddenly became a Nigerian, and not a US citizen anymore. How can we say that Ibrahim is a jew is what I am saying here. While you are obsesses with mundane aspect of things, Islam is focused on pleasing and praising God and looking forward to the inevitable event of Judgement day.

One more example - Jonah (fraudulently depicted as Yunus) is alleged to be a 3rd generation descendant of Benjamin the son of Jacob. But this same Jonah was not even born until after King David was long long dead!!!

David, did you get your information above from a www search engine, eg google. there is cuil, now. Now present your evidence before i even try to debunk it by present my islamic evidence. You will note that the vies i have of the Biblical account is not favorable, this single subject of Yunusa may just be what will bring you to my side, instead of your hardheadedness with the Bible. I will be waiting, David.

@Queenisha:

#32 on: Yesterday at 06:22:16 PM »
Jhn 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
Jhn 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[fn2]
Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

Please note that throught out these many verses above, he did not answer the singular question asked. Instead he gave information about his "sheep," how he can keep them, without them getting snatched off his hand, since his "father," had given them to him. But it was truly that theese "sheep," are can never be snatched from the hand of his "father," who is greater than "all." Please not that all here includes "Jesus," the alleged speaker of these verses.

Finally, we see where he says that he and his fathr are one. Now if on one hand his father gave the sheep to him, and, on the other hand he and his father are one, then please tell me where was his father, heaven or earth when he and his followers said the Lord's prayer? Were all his sheep his siblings since they bothe said "our Father?" When Jesus was making prayers and petitioning theone who could save him, was his father and him both making that prayer, crying out, etc?


When he specified that the will of the father is to be done and his own will is secondary and unimportant, was he talking about himself? Wouldn't that have been a statement of an unstable mind, if he and his father are one? I am not interested in belaboring the issue, because i know you get the idea. Think about that expression, "I and my father are one." Are they truly one, if he yelled out on the cross which he was nailed on, "my God, My God, why has thou forsakened me?"


Is the statement who is truly a son, but an entity who recognizes his audiance as his God not his father? When I read all these proposition of God and Jesus, I can't but wonder how one could fall for such a bad collection of ideas to support such a clearly wrong notion. I hope you have a son, woman and when he says that he and your husband are one, and he then decided to climb into your bed to perform the duties of your husband.


When you slap him silly that he and his father are separate and it was not his position to show you who is the man, you must have to go back to your Biblical verse and say, haha, the writer must have been a big time delutional group of nitwits. And please do not forget that when the NT recorded the "do" of how Mary got pregnat , trying to kill the idea of just the direct "will" as in command of God, they say "the spirit of the Lord came upon her an over shadowed her!" Now tell me what does that mean; was Jesus also part of this overshadowing of Mary?



When Jesus went to the fire of hell and was fought the devil, according to the Bible in those 3 badly calculated 3 days and 3 nights from Friday, just before the beginning of sabbath, and just after the dawn of Sunnday, was the father dead too, in order to participate in all that Jesus "did" in his alleged death? Think baby. Neither Zainab Ndidi nor Emeka, both Owerri women, will let Olayiwola or Oladunwo say to them look lady, I and olabowale are one, so get ready for my performance of my father's duties on you.


Yet I and my sons agree that we have this father and sons relationship, and not a mere statement of "begotten," because their mother 'Lola can attest to it. Was any attestation made by Mary that God was the father of her son? We already know that only God can make any one get pregnant, becoming a parent. A woman who is overshadowed by an entity and get impregnated by that process will certainly know the feeling, especially when that was they first experience. Is there anybreakage of the hymen, a clear sign of this overshadowing? You are in medicine help us, Doctor.

@Reindeer:

@olabowale
and you said i was wrong when i said islam has no identity without christianity,
look at the scenario

qtn: how can ISLAM tackle terrorism

your ans: should only do better that CHRISTIANTY,

which was obviously not mentioned by the question, you just had to come around to it, you only confirm it, you can't answer a single question on anything islam without mentioning those words, jesus,bible,jews,christians etc

When are you a Jew? Aren't you a guy from Africa,probably west african and a good chance that you are a nigerian? Has Christianity faired well without aligning itself with the Jews? You even have their torah, which you call OT to make your book feel fuller, yet you have no regard for it. You are quick to disregard its injuctions for evenSaul/Paul's wierd statements.

as a test case can you please answer the following question,

who was prophet mohammed ?(im supposed to put pbuh as a mark or respect here)
i bet your answer will start with THATS THE GUY AFTER JESUS CAME, isnt that so?

If you had actually bet or wagered with me, with something substantial like all your earnings from now till you are about 80 years, or otherwise revert to islam, i would have answered your question by putting you in a poor house or you will be wearing a jalabiyya. You probably will look exotically handsome in it anyway.

My answer would have been the man who is answer from Allah of the prayer of prophet Ibrahim for his progeny. Read about the prayer of Ibrahim and the acceptance of that prayer and the answer from God. There is a place in Makka called maqam Ibrahim, thats where the prayer is made. How about that. You lost bigtime.

@Deepzone: A Calabar Muslim by Ali Isong lives in Brooklyn NY. If I know where you live, I probably will tell you how to get to him. He speaks Arabic too. How about that? Alhaji Isa Okeke, is in igboland, as we speak. I have his home and office numbers. I met him when we were negotiating a project in Oguta local government. I also know many Ibo muslims in USA.


Since you are arguing about the existence of islam in Yorubaland, we know that you know nothing about Yoruba people. Even the Yoruba christians are murm about the subject, leaving you alone to continue to walk around in darkness. But they, the yoruba christians are not truly your brothers and sisters. If they were, they would have told you that you are talking out of Ignorance.

@Pataki: Omo nla, i wo lo nso isoku so bayi? What did i say that is off the cuffs? Did Jacob wrestled with god and prevailed with (over) God and man? How can God not just defeat him easy that he had to dislocate his bone and sock joint of the thigh in order to escape? Doesn't that raise even the issue of god being on earth before Jesus was born? Considering that davidylan quoted that Melchizedek was the god of Abraham. Ki lo nso, iwo ogbe ni yi?

@SeanT21:
How could you understand where Shaz is coming from when instead of explaining anything to you, she confused you the more and herself? Thats not nice. She lied to you with her convoluting presentation and you understand where she is coming from? If you do, please explain what she said, to me, because am at a loss, even more than what your initial question raised. What Shaz has done is to add layers of darkness on the darkness that you wanted somebody to disperse with the light of truth. I guess no one can find that in the Bible, uh? Come to the Qur'an. infact send me a mail.


@godpen:

1. They are distinct from each other and not separate e.g Jesus telling His disciples when they asked Him of the Father, He said since you know me, you know the Father
2. The closest (most probably,) example you can give for 3 in 1 personality is your distinct Spirit, Soul and Body.
Mind you, Christianity is not a rational field, Paul said: the gentiles seek after wisdom and the jews after signs but God as used the little things of this world to put to shame the big ones. THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD (which man address to be so) IS BETTER THAN THE WISDOM OF MAN.

You are kidding me, right? God foolishness. Wow. Paul have creadted a monster called Christianity.

@SeanT21:

25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

This is a God that can not prevail against jacob, a mere human? Romantic story witha terrible message.

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Even God confess that Jacob prevailed over Him in addition to prevailing over man? Some terrible storylines.

29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. 32 Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank."

Sister, I understand your plight. Terribel story! Reducing God to weakling. I think those who among the Christian who are easy to say that God had to come like a man, jesus, how do they explain this condition with Jacob? Afterall, that was not Jesus, or was it Jesus? I hope somebody will take the bait here. David or other, is anyone eager to explain?

Can someone explain this Story to Me?

I thought no one could see God Face and Live but yet Jacob wrestle with Him.

There is no good explanation, babe. Its smelly all the way. I thought no one could see Biblical God face to face too, and yet live. But apparently, without the god turning up as Jesus, Jacob fought Him and even prevailed over Him. How can we now say that Jesus is the softer side of God that can be seen, when saw Him, without Him changing to Jesus? But of course I remember davidylan was telling me that Melchizedek was another ones of the gods, too.

Woman, run from these type of confused ways. Come over to Islam.

@Davidylan:

this is irrelevant. We are talking about a man who claims to have brought a religion from God not just some random Ijebu man.

~Lady~ venerates Mary. You Davidylan don't. Will your not venerating her make you a bad christian? Does it have any impact on your being raptured or going to Christian heaven? If your answer to each is no, then it is not necessary to know every little details of Muhammad's forefathers, except the important ones. But I have to tell you that he said that none of his forefathers participated in illegal sex, all the way from Adam to his own father Abdallah. Give me relevant question, so that i can respond. Jawo kuro ni nu irrelevant questions!

Its funny that such an important detail suddenly becomes "mundane" to explain away the dearth of information regarding so "mighty" a "prophet" and yet the same you spent months haranguing others about the genealogy of Christ in Matthew and Luke.
Maybe next time when you want to cast rocks remember your house of glass.

I never started and no time did i demand you gave me the geneology of jesus. go back and check it. I responded when so of you were so boastful about. I had to remind you guys some of those persons in his geneology wer liars and adulterers, etc, if you go by you Bible. I felt there was nothing to be proud about.

I will remeber not to throw stone, okay rocks, or rolling boulders at my glass house. however if i build a glace house, the thickness of the glass will be many inches, to that it can withstand whatever is thrown at it.

where is the PROOF?

All of a sudden you got the acute case of anmesia, dave about Ismail and his mother living in Makka. Then tell me where did they live after they were "Biblically sent/casted out" of the house where sarah did not want to see them? Aburo, talk true.

There is Zamzam, Safa and marwa mountains. What will Ismail and his mother have to do with any of these o? Am thinking! lol. Where is Osisi?

I cannot cross from light unto darkness. sorry.

I need to remind you of the biblical song about ligh and oil: Ko ma sepo o, ara, ko ma sepo. Ejowo e lo ra loja boko yawo ba de, ki le o ti so?! What it shows is that some of you are in the dark even when the "christian bridegroom," arrives. I am inviting you to a situation that God will give you light upon light. Read Surah Nur (Chapter on light). Read Surah Fath (Chapter on Victory). In chapter on victory, you will see the light on the faces of those who prostrate their faces to Allah. I see it everyday. I am inviting you to success. Grab my hand.

Keep decieving yourself. He created you and made you no more than a slave? Pele alhaji.

Ose to tie kimi ni pele. But he created you and he made a son, instead? Yet you install a patron, jesus between you and Him, while me who is not more than a slave do not have anyone between He and i as i am free to talk to Him, directly? Who is truly free between you and I? Who truly have a sound relationship with Him? While you are trying to call jesus to take your demand to Him, I, on the other hand have my go to Him directly, without a viel! Now tell whose condition is better? Since Jesus talked to Him directly, I also do the same. By the Lord of the Kaaba, I am a fortunate and victorious.

@Deepzone;

hahahaha, are you attacking the immaculate conception again? How many people do you know in this world that were born asexually?

hahahaha, you have failed to look at the total picture again. How many people do you do you know in this world that were born in the garden, as an adult, without a father and a mother, just from dirt, like Adam? Let me do better for you, how many people do you know in this world that were born in the garden, as a woman adult, without asexually from a small piece from her father, like Eve?

Question:

Since you have ascertained that muslims believe in heaven and hell, what will happen to the souls of non muslims when they die(from the islamic perspective)?

The soul of non muslims will go to hell. You did not know that before? You have a world to learn, my man!

@theopops:

After all these gibberish, how does that answer the question? So, you are supposed to strike back, once someone does you wrong? According to you, Islam does not mean peace, because if it did, you will recognize that when a wrong thing is done to you, killing the person is not the peaceful way to go. Thanks for confirming what we have always know. Islam doesn't mean peace.

How you came about this, above from my piece is very amazing. You should at least provide proofs. Okay a singular proof. You can not tell me that i insinuated from my writing that islam does not value peace, even though i dislike meekness. There are are many instances in the Qur'an where meekness is encouraged. For a example a society where they have practiced revenge for many generations without end, is even encouraged to forgive, without revenge and not taking a ransome as in the blood money. But to seek mercy and reward about the loss from Allah alone. Now top that.