₦airaland Forum

You are a well informed man on the subject matter.

pazienza:
Ideals rule the world I believe.

Biafra to me means strictly Igbo speaking Country comprising of entire SE and willing Igboid groups in SS and NC only.

How I intend to achieve it? This I believe is not supposed to be made a public knowledge if it must be efficient, but you get the feeling that having an established boundaries and map should be the first stage of freedom fight.
Its also not rocket science that you will need full political control of your region in Nigeria as the next step.

IPOB

omonnakoda:
Who is " THEY"?

Your frustrations will NOT change the fact that Igbos benefit greatly from Nigeria.


Anambra, Abia, Enugu, Imo and Ebonyi States collect allocations from the Federal account every month but you guys will like to come online to accuse the Hausa-Fulanis and Yorubas as the only people benefiting from the crude oil sales.


People are wiser than you assume.

Rodwave:
Shut up. you and your people are demonic. You Yorubas are very wicked. Face your ewedu republic. Stop acting like you care about South South when all your plans have always been to corner everything to your lazy tribe alone. What have your demonic tribe done for the people of South South if not scheming to corner their wealth? You Yorubas have never wished them well so face your ritual killers republic.

You are patronising them now because you want them to join in your eternal hate against the Igbos.

After using Nigeria collective wealth to develop lagos, your foolish people are beating their chest on how your phantom ingenuity developed lagos.

You people are ingrates.

Bros, calm down.

I think you are replying to a wrong person because I never talked about States creation ,SNC, Zoning and/Federalism in my post.

UdechiHD:
Mr man focus your energy on your ethnic group. The same way Delta, Imo, Ogun etc was created is the same way they can be disbanded for more smaller states. In the last SNC there were recommendations for the merging of states based on certain determinants, signifying that zoning is unconstitutional.
The choice of zoning is to promote federalism, which as a system of government can be dissolved tomorrow for unitarian or confederacy, depending on the futuristic needs of the country.
The rubbish you wrote up there proves your intellectual shallowness.

Both you and Pazienza are nairaland champions. However, you as a person still don’t understand that in Nigeria today, allegiance to ethnicity far outweighs political boundaries. This is why a Buhari can appoint Fulani’s from the NW,NE and NC because his tribesmen comes first before others. And this is also why Buhari can appoint Igbos from Delta and Rivers states to represent the wider Igbos because he understands the ethnic makeup of Nigeria.

Such jargons as limitations of ethnic powers in states or zones is bullcrap. You cannot put a bullet in people’s head and force them to remain with you when the interest of their ethnicity is their major bond. This was a major reason for the agitation of states in the first place and Gowon acted on that purpose.

Again, the constitution of Nigeria can be change at anytime to reflect the wishes of the people but ethnicities are inseparable.

Take for example, Delta state of today. Before it’s creation they existed a Bendel and before that we had the Midwest etc. Same was applicable to the division of the South into west and east and also Nigeria into north and south by the colonial masters. The only constant among the delineation is ethnicity and whether Anioma state is created tomorrow it changes nothing.

Therefore before you jump into stating a poorly held opinion, first understand your constitution which is ethnicity conscious. There is no where the constitution mention where states is constant, because it can be dissolved at anytime.

Because they actually want a smaller version of Nigeria in which there will be no Hausa-Fulani and Yoruba, the two other major tribes that they consider their opponents/enemies.

omonnakoda:
Why not give Fulani right to choose if they want to be in Biafra?

Why those places that give you sea access and crude oil?

The late President Yar'Adua didn't have any Chief of Staff.

Karlifate:
One of the reasons why Abba Kyari was powerful is that GMB did not employ a PPS. OBJ, Umaru Musa Yar'adua & GEJ all has CoS & PPS.
The summary of the matter is that:
Weak President = Powerful CoS.
Powerful President = Weak CoS.

Good analysis.



1) However was there ever a time that ,Ngwaland, the Aros, the people of Oyigbo, Etche, Aniocha, Oshimili, Ika, Ndokwa and Igbanke were together with NRI people as kingdom or Republic or Empire of Biafra?

2) Do you honestly think that the people of Edo State will sit down and will just be looking while Igbanke will be ceded to 'Biafra' ? Did Ojukwu's Biafra had ANY territories beyond the River Niger?

3) Have you reached agreement with the people and Government of Kogi, Benue and Cross River that you will conduct a referendum on parts of their lands which you desire to add to Biafra?


4) What is the universally acceptable and unambiguous definition of an Igbo person/Igbo lands?

5) In Summary: How do you define the borders of Biafria?

pazienza:
What's there to explain? Ancient Israel was neighbours to Egypt. And it remains so till today.
What was in the past was restored in the present.

So will Igboland true boundaries be one day restored. When we get a serious group ready to work for only Igbo freedom and emancipation alone and no other ethnic group own. Not the current confused lots.
Its a matter of time. This organization will arise.

Let's assume that the referendum is conducted in Delta State in 2020 and the result is ;


Yes to Biafra= 500,000

Niger-Delta Republic= 1,200,000.



We
Where will the State go to?

Yujin:
Lol. You can tell me to keep it in Igboland and you'll be right. Which SE? The one created by enemies of Igboland? Go and sit down.

What exactly give you the impression that Nnamdi Kanu /IPOB have the MANDATE of the people of Delta State to call for referendum on their soil?

Are Kanu/IPOB the legitimate Representatives of the people of Delta State?

Is Nnamdi Kanu, the Governor of Delta State?

Is IPOB the same as the House of Assembly of Delta State?

Is IPOB one of the Socio-cultural organizations or the Council of Traditional Rulers of Delta State?

Was ANY part of Delta State ever part of Biafra from 1967-1970?

Nwanyiogwashi:
Mister no body is begging you to join, you are free to relocate back to osun state

People like you are making the Biafran agitations very complicated because you only view things from your own prisms and like to come online to espouse these your views not only as the truth but as the ONLY truth.

Anybody that share contrary views from your views are labeled 'Afonja' because you have been programmed to see the Yoruba people as your problem.


The first question you need to ask yourselves is 'What is Biafra?'

a) The Old Eastern Region which didn't include Delta and Edo States.

b) The five States of the S/East.

c) All territories inhabited by Igbos whereever they found

d) The present SE/SS.

franchasng:
They know all these, they know, they just want to continue to use their Lagos-Ibadan wack media tactics of the 70s to gather more haters for Igbos as a way of stopping Igbos from leaving their doomed Nigeria.



No country can be declared in this modern era without a referendum for the people agitating for the freedom and secession to decide where they want to belong, they know or may not know.


So called Niger Delta can never be forced to join Biafra if they refuse to.


There must be a referendum for Igbo speaking communities wrongly carved into Niger Delta of today and Benue/Kogi to decide if they want to join their Igbo brothers in Biafra or remain with Niger Delta or Middlebelt.


That is the procedure for granting freedom under UN charter.


So all these Ijaw boys and Urhobo people following Yoruba haters to indirectly attack Igbos on Biafra cause, you guys lack wisdom, u should be supportint Igbos so that as they succeed in getting a referendum, Niger Delta will equally demand for their own referendum to secede as their own independent nation if that's their wish

The problem with Kanu's method is that;

1) There is no recognized part of Nigieria called Biafra.
Scotland is a constituent of Britain with well defined borders, elected representative and administration but Biafa is nothing similar to this.

2) The Scottish nationalist parties and the Scotland parliament legally made the demand for referendum NOT just a random guy from Scotland like Nnamdi Kanu is just a random guy from Abia State.

Dikebuka:
To further clarify all this.. What Nnamdi Kanu is doing is plain demanding for a referendum.

Which simply means if you want to stay in Nigeria, you click yes or no.

Afterall the Jada people that wia in Cameroon voted to move to Nigeria..

Nobody will force you..when ita time to vote...you vote for Nigeria.

Afterall people in Scotland voted to remain with Britain

Point of correction for the sake of incoming generation.


1) The Ikwerres, Ekepeyes,Etche etc were part of the Calabar-Ogoja-Rivers (COR) Movement of the 1950s. This polical group was agitating for the creation of a separate Region from the Old Eastern Region to represent the non-Igbo groups in the old Eastern Region.

2) The IKWERRES attended the Willinks Commision of 1958,set up by the departing Colonial Government to look into the fears of the Minorities ethnic group as Nigeria prepared for Independence.

3) The Ogbakwor Ikwerres declaration of 1963 defined Ikwerres as a distinct ethnic group.


All these evidence shows that these groups have been shouting that they are NOT Igbos long before the civil war... They only use the opportunity of the civil war to make a bold statement.

pazienza:
YorubaHero12



During this period in history. Hope you know that Ikwerre, Ogba, Ekpeye, Oyigbo, Ndoni, virtually all the most productive part of modern Rivers in terms of crude oil were still bona-fide members of Igbo Union and were not counted as minorities by the colonial government or Eastern region?

I am yet to get your point, because you are obviously making no point.





I don't know what you are talking about. The minorities region were quickly captured during the war, yet the OAU(Owerri, Aba Umuahia) part of Biafra held on for longer time. We were going to take Biafra without the minorities if it were offered at the end.
Minorities were part and parcel of Biafra from its beginning. Okoko Ndem, Rex Rawson, Effiong, Akpan, etc. It was always going to be hard for Ojukwu to just drop them overnight to prove to oil hungry Yorubas and North that he wasn't after their oil. I don't even understand how we can be having this argument.
Ojukwu had the opportunity to use Niger delta oil wells to negotiate for weapons and support with USSR but declined, because unlike those in Lagos who saw the place as a spoil to hunt in pack with anyone willing to assist them and share the spoils later. Ojukwu saw it as part of Biafra that must be protected from hawks.

As of Kanu adding Niger delta for crude oil and sea access. I don't know as I'm not Kanu, but I know he is claiming Igalaland too, and they are no where near the sea or have oil, likewise Igbanke in Edo.




The war was virtually Britain vs Biafra. I wouldn't take words coming from Britain papers serious. They would say and write anything to demonize Biafra. Biafra army had many minorities as part of it. How could they kill minorities?
Even in Igbo land, saboteurs and their families were usually targeted. Ifeajuna family were almost wiped off in Onitsha, their house were burnt and they were persecuted, in fact it got to a point that almost all Onitsha persons were seen as Sabos by everyone in Biafra. This was the state of things in Igboland. All over the world, traitors were never treated with kid gloves in war period, because many are usually in pains. What ever happened to traitors in minorities area, happened to those in Igboland. But I guess ignoring those in Igboland while magnifying those in Minorities area is an easier way of promoting the propaganda of Igbos forcing Minorities Into Biafra that Awolowo, Enahoro and Ayida were running, rather than taking the harder option of UN supervised plebiscite Ojukwu and Effiong were proposing to put the propaganda to test, right?




I am sure you will be back. Anything to keep Nigeria united so that you can exploit all, eh?

Your last sentence show how you guys arrogate so much powers to yourself with a messiahnic complex.

1) IF Nigeria agree to insert secession clause in the constition, the secession will not be for only Igbo States but for ANY State that want to leave the Federal Republic of Nigieria.

2) Referendum for Biafra can not be approved in the ways you guys talk because there is no constituent part of Nigeria called Biafra.

Igbos States can unite after secession and call themselves Biafra or whatever name they like.


3) ANY State that want to secceed will then follow the laid down procedures e.g two-third majority vote in their Houses of Assembly ,approved by two-third majority of the National Assembly etc.

Yujin:
Igbos recognize all the nations in Southern Nigeria. What we don't recognize is the boundaries created by an enemy shortly before the Biafran war. We include majority of the ethnic groups around us that we feel share cultural beliefs with us. It's left for them to reject it at the referendum. At present, non of them is agitating for a country so you don't expect us to tell UN to include another country on the ballot. If any group or tribe wants a country, they can start agitating now to be recognized. Then, they can be put on the ballot. It's not IPOB job to do that for you. As a matter of fact, we expect a couple of tribes to vote to remain in Nigeria. It's their fundamental human right just like it will be ours to reject them when they'll flee the death that will brought upon them after our departure.

Niger-Delta Republic can happen because

1) There won't be an overwhelming majority ethnic group. Ijaw, Urhobos, Ibiobio are roughly equal in size.

2) There is no great disparities in their cultures, religions and worldviews.

Efik, Ibiobio and Annang are actually different subsets of the same ethnic group.
Ekpeyes, Ikwerres, Etched etc are igboid groups who share so many similarities.

Even Ijaw, Urhobos, Isoko and to some extent Itsekiri have so many things in common.

pazienza:
Well I know that Ibibio, Ijaw and Urhobo favour Niger delta republic because you hope to start playing majority politics in the new country against the smaller ethnic groups, like Ijaw did in old Rivers state, Urhobo in current Delta and Ibibio in Akwa Ibom.

But you must know that Niger Delta republic will not happen. After escaping this failed Nigeria,no ethnic nationality would ever tolerate to be under another.
Groups like Oro, Ogoni are already far advanced in their quest for independent country free from Ibibio and Ijaws, and would be supported by Ndiigbo to gain such, if we have a strategic leadership by then sha, not the current disorganized one championing for Biafra.

I am 100 percent that there will be no Niger Delta republic,At least not one consisting of all current 6 SS states intact. Niger Delta republic will likely in the end be just Ijaw republic, which was exactly what Boro defunct Niger Delta republic was all about.
At least 20 independent countries would emanate from the current Niger Delta region.
IPOB should stop wasting our time and forge synergy with all those groups as independent countries and not part of Biafra, so that we can all push together in our direction and free ourselves from Lagos/Abuja gang up that had affected all of us in the region.

You are great liar for subtly suggesting that the decay started from the creation of Rivers State and trying to blame Hausas and the Yoruba people for the problems of Rivers State.


I support restructuring 100% but I don't subcribe to pointing accusing fingers to other tribes as the causes of the problems of the whole country or a part of the country.


Every month, Anambra, Imo, Enugu, Abia and Ebonyi States receive money (far greater than what they contribute) from the federation accounts but you always like to give wrong impression that these States don't share parts of the revenues from the South-South.

Deebwebb:
Decay started immediately Gowon declared rivers a state,while making sure oil goes directly to the north,that's why we all should clamour for restructuring,but yorubas and Hausa hate it,because it means we will now control our oil,our seaport and international airports and nobody will patronize Lagos,which is the only thing keeping them going,look at their other Yoruba states like Ogun state,very dirty and stinking,most of them are ritualists,so if we restructure Nigeria,they will lose of big time....

1) You don't necessarily have to come from an oil rich State to become a Billionaire either in Naira or Dollars.

2) It's a big fallacy to say that anybody that is a Billionaire in Nigeria make his/her money from Niger-Delta oil.

SpaceTour:
[s][/s]


Useless old man just shut up your dirty mouth. The op was specific. Is there any billionaire of Rivers state origin in that list or even presently in Nigeria?

Why do you always feel the need to compare yourself with others?




Did I mention anything about Abia State in my post?

You were given a wrong impression about Osun which I corrected and you are now bringing pictures of Abia State or telling me that a Shopping Mall is occupied or not occupied by ShopRite.

Are ALL shopping malls occupied by ShopRite?

Do you subtly mean a shopping is only a Shopping Mall if it's occupied by ShopRite, a South African retail departmental store?

Beautifulminde3:
That's substandard mall, even Shoprite rejected the mall, justrite local retail is the one using the place and PEP

Abia have two malls

Below is Abia mall in Umuahia the state capital

Oshogbo in Osun State has fly overs and Shopping Mall nau.

NwaAro:
"uncompleted" is how it's spelled you dunce, and which yeye Osun has Mall, the same Osun we both know abi is there another one in the North pole?

But the utterances of Nnamdi Kanu, IPOB and their supporters is contrary to this claim.
Go to Radio Biafra page on Facebook and see the level of hatred against the Fulani and Yoruba people.

hammerP:
I FEEL THE NEED TO STATE THAT WE ARE NOT LEAVING NIGERIA BECAUSE WE ARE AFRAID OF YORUBA, HAUSA OR FULANI.

WE ARE LEAVING NIGERIA BECAUSE IT IS A FAILED STATE.

I HAVE NEVER KNOWN NDIIGBO TO FEAR ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE ON GODS EARTH.

FEAR IS XENOPHOBIA AND TRIBALISTIC OR RACIST ORIENTATED.

IPOB IS NOT A RACIST GROUP.

Stop saying what you don't know.



1) Itskeris is partially mutually intelligent with certain Yoruba dialects.

2) Ilaja is a subset of the larger Yoruba language spectrum.

3) Oba, Eko and Ola are proper Yoruba names.

Several kings have reigned in Ile-Ife before Oduduwa and many of these have the word 'OBA' as prefixes to their names and some are now deitified e.g Obatala, Obalufon etc.

The appropriate Bini word for camp is 'Ago'' and not Eko as it's being misconstrued online.

Even the Binis don't bear 'Ola'

Odingo1:
Know you that Egun, Itsekiri and Ilaje language is entirely different from Yoruba language. Somebody that speak Egun or Itsekiri cannot have a conversation with a yoruba man because they cannot hear each other but Ikwerre and Igbo person from south eastern Nigeria will discuss with each other fluently.

Also point of correction, the names that you refer to as yoruba names are actually Bini names because Bini people colonized yoruba land for long time and transfered some Bini names to Yoruba like Oba(king), Eko(Lagos), Ola etc.

Hmn, I understand your feelings but the hard truth is that no tribe has a monopoly over any name and this phenomenon is NOT limited to Igbo-Ikwerre relationship.


There are so many people bearing names like Turaki, Balarabe, Ishaku, Waziri etc that we Southerners wrongly assume to be Hausa but are not Hausa.

There are many people in Edo, Delta and Kogi States that bear Ayo, Femi, Ade, Akin etc but aren't Yorubas.

In Europe, names like Augustine, Frank, Angela, William, Francis, Jane, Alexander, Catherine,Henry etc can be English, French, German etc.

NwaAro:
Thanks for your much anticipated response.

So it's established you're at least aware and proud of your Igbo heritage.

As for the Igbo name bearers who are evidently not Igbos, I personally don't care about them tbh. I wish them all the best in their pursuits of happiness. Where I have a problem however is that the Igbos are tired of been at the receiving end of their "Bleep up's", no be tomorrow one Emeka Wigwe from Ikwerre will commit one type of crime that will headline global papers, and the tribal warriors will then tag him Igbo just to mock us.

Every part of Nigeria has existed before Nigeria came into existence in 1914 and every part can exist after Nigeria.

It's only oxygen that man can't exist without.



Everywhere you see men on this planet, God has already given them what they need to exist.


Your hatred for other Nigerians based on their tribes doesn't make YOU to think deeply about issues and make unbiased judgement.

NwunneWike:
Abbobi, the East is not forcing us in the SS to be Biafrans. Hausa dey drink my oil, yoruba say make I hate Ibo man.

Go NNPC make you see as yoruba pack themselves there. I know one wey hate Biafra pass anything because hunger go finish am.
The idiot no dey pick my phone since him see me change my whatsapp status to Biafra flag last year heroes day.
I blame him papa?

yoruba no go fit survive without Nigeria but them dey lie give themselves. Infact hausa better pass them.

So the criteria for being part of Biafria is any group of people 'if they speak Igbo, bear Igbo names and practice Igbo culture'?



The problem with this criteria will be 'Hiw do you define Igbo language, Igbo names or Igbo culture'?


Each ethnic group will say they speak their OWN Language , bear their OWN names and practice their OWN cultures irrespective of the similarities with Igbo language, names and cultures.

Odingo1:
Referendum will solve this matter, Rivers State is part of Biafra until they decide to pull out through voting.

Ikwerre, Oyibos, Etches, Ndokis, Elemes and Ekpeyes are Igbo people in Rivers state while in Delta State, Anioma, Ika and Igbanke in Edo State are also Igbo people. The can deny their Igbo heritage due to Nigeria politics but they know that they are Igbos because they bear Igbo names, speak Igbo and practice Igbo culture.

Rivers State was one of the twelve States created in 1967 just before the beginning of the civil war.

The division of the Old Eastern Region and the creation of States rattled Ojukwu causing him to declare Biafra without adequate preparation.

ludd2018:
Igbos don't claim river state but River state is Biafra from time immemorial. River state was a creation of Hausa fulanis after the war . There are Igbos in River state and when Biafra comes we 'll go with our cousins in so called River state . Note the original name for Port Harcourt is Igweocha an Igbo name.

It's not only Ikwerres, Northerners also refers to Ijaw, Efik, Ogoni, Urhobos, Anang as igbos.




During the build-up to the 2011 presidential election, educated Government workers I my place of work in Potiskum, Yobe State were telling me that Goodluck Jonathan is an Igboman!

I tried educating them that Jonathan is an Ijaw man and Ijaw is a separate ethnic group but they didn't listen.

SlyCharlie:
LMAO


The need to distance or disassociate yourselves from a particular tribe every darn time is sickening.
If you truly aren't one people or language group, there won't be any need for long epistles once every two weeks from your lot on Nairaland.
But the fact that you keep trying to spin the narrative or revalidate your non igboness or whatever, every time speaks volumes than whatever it is you chose to write.

.

And the irksome thing is that we rarely see long epistles on SM trying to do the opposite.
People are focused rn, on how to develop his/her region or direct environment, yet some grown up folks can't still get over PTSD of being grouped alongside people that lost a war 50 years ago.

.

On another note, if pogroms in the North were to begin again, - not saying they will- , but if they do,and an Ikwerre man named Chibuike is to find himself among the chaos, do you think the folks leading the charge would want to know if he is Ikwerre or Anioma??...
His name is Chibuike, he is automatically labelled Igbo, whose fault is that??...
Except prolly y'all start calling yourselves Danladi or Danjuma..


Your lot are confused,and should channel this misplaced concern to something more yeilding.

My two cents..

Honestly, I don't know what Tribalists aim to achieve because they act far below their level of education and intelligence in attempts to promote a tribal supremacy or tribal bashing.


A 78 year old civilian and private citizen that was not occupying any position, without an army or militia is planning to planning to engage a sitting MILITARY Head of State in a military combat to overthrow him and the whole country didn't know about it apart from this blogger?

You are very correct.







His children think money is everything.

tripoli007:
Interesting read ,I think one of the sons Of this ejigbadero just bought gowon estate playing ground known as “kuwaitfield “. He is vying for the post of Baale of a certain part of Alimosho ,which the Raji oba street falls in but is meeting strict opposition..wow history is good ..Heading to iyanaipaja from Egbeda .. Ejigbadero now has. B/stop

Bros, there's nothing that concern Yorubas in this matter.

About 99% of Yoruba people don't even know what is Ikwerres.









If you doubt me, just travel around and ask a random guy on the streets of Ijebu-Ode, Ilesha, Iseyin, Aiyetoro, Ila-Orangun, Ilawe-Ekiti, Efon-Alaaye, Ikare Akoko or Ile Oluji what they think about Ikwerres.

Nine, out of ten will first ask you; what is Ikwerres?

ludd2018:
Why can't yorubas mind their business? Why are u denying ikwere their root just to continue to isolate ikwere from their brothers just because of Oil? South South or Nigeria delta was a creation of yesterday. These people had existed over 5000 yrs as one even before Nigeria was created by white man .

Which economic indices are you talking about sir?


Name just 3 economic decisions taken by the PDP that produced the so-called economic indices.


The relatively high prices of crude oil determined the apparent economic indices and NOT any magic wand of the people.


Nigerians rate the performance of their Governments based on minimal Infrastructural development (like building of railways,Zamfara roads, power stations, estates, hospitals etc) and not any reasonable economic decisions.

nameo:
The funny thing is that most of the projects listed above were started by the PDP and much of the work in a lot of them was even done before APC came to power.

If after 5 years, and if these projects that APC met on ground(some of which have not even been completed) is the reason you wanna give the present Govt a pass, i really feel immerse pity for you and yours.

And then when you compare both parties in terms of basic economic index( inflation, exchange rate, poverty rate, employment rate, hunger rate, stock exchange performance etc), security and running an inclusive Govt, APC even fails behind the PDP, as bad as PDP was.

Just see how the APC FG Govt has completely malhandled the corona crisis in Nigeria!!!!

Both parties have failed Nigerians.

But APC is even the worst in my view, esp as they were voted in to significantly correct the ills of the PDP.

Most likely he is from Osun State.



I think I knew him many years age when he was a Prophet in a Cherubim & Seraphim Church.

Simplyleo:
Pls, who is he?

Looks like a rastafarian.

The criminal variety.

If MC Olumo's children are hooligans, fighting on the streets or are being arrested by the Police for rape or smoking Marijuana, so people will talk bitterly about him and abuse the Yoruba people.

Now that the man is sending his children to good schools and are graduating in flying colours, some people are still complaining bitterly and abusing the Yoruba people.

Not lucky per se but hardwork and determination to see that his children get the best education that he didn't get while growing (I guess he must have sat down one day and wept secretly for what poor education must have cost him).

Bola146:
Congratulations girl.. MC is just lucky having good children