₦airaland Forum

Image123:
You wrote and must have read "thing or concept", did you?

Lol
I noticed he ignored this your post just as he did with my response to his documentary. I believe he must have foreseen where it'd lead to, so he has to ignore them inorder to hold on to his dear belief.

LordReed:
Do you understand how conversations work? You have explained how you are not blaming,"atheistic world" am I supposed to continue saying you are blaming "atheistic world"? Would you prefer I did that or would you prefer I accepted your explanation and moved on? I expect conversations to be dynamic unless you are some preprogrammed robot, I see no reason why we can not shift the conversation to something else when we have thrashed out one topic.

As I have pointed out I have accepted you explanation of you not blaming "atheistic world" and now I what to understand why you mentioned it at all.

Again you said it is allowed in an atheistic world, what do you mean by that if not that atheists would permit such actions. Explain.

If you had moved on after the first clear explanation, especially when I put it in context, I wouldn't need to ask you to acknowledge the fact that your accusation was wrong.

Now that you've done that, then no point in asking you again.

About shifting ground (or changing context), I think discussion should be about a central idea which should be stuck too. Most times, folks tend to shift topic or idea whenever their claim has been refuted, but without acknowledging it. This frustrates the discussion.
Just like the analogy of person A who tries to show the moon by pointing it to person B. Only for B to talk about A's finger, without acknowledging that he has seen the moon.

For your last question, it has been answered already with Dawkins' partial quote. Such worldview care less, though the adherents could be nice people (even when they could care less); just as some who claim to be Christians do bad things (negating the tenets of their beliefs). It does not change the belief of the worldviews.

I hope I am clear enough this time

LordReed:
The people committing these acts are not atheist so why make reference to "atheistic world".

Besides you are still wrong, what Dawkins said doesn't indicate that atheists automatically permit criminal acts.

Shifting grounds as usual.
I didn't mention atheists. I said atheistic world.

They are two different things.

Now I have to ask two questions (since you've refused to answer the first one)

1. How have I blamed atheistic world (considering my lengthy explanation before)
2. How did my statement of Dawkins description of an ATHEISTIC WORLDVIEW make me imply that ATHEISTS automatically permit criminal acts?

Maybe a third; when will you change sir?

LordReed:
You said: Of course, this is allowed in an atheistic world. If you didn't intend to blame "atheistic world" what were you implying?

You should have read my conversation with him so you could get the context in which I used such statement. But you mostly focus on the finger which points someone to the moon, instead of actually focusing on the moon.

The context is that prayer is not the formula for making it. Rather, diligence is the primary principle. Prayer can be an advantage (refer to the original post for context, before you focus on this also). This was against his idea that prayer is useless since godless folks make it without prayers, citing examples such as kidnapping.

I responded that though those UNCHRISTIAN (godless) acts (which are of course permissible in an atheistic world) could help one make it, they still need diligence.

So how your mind read it as me blaming atheistic world is puzzling.

If citing examples that some Northern institution admit students with low cut off mark EQUATES to blaming the institution, I think I need to consult my dictionary again?

Now how have I blamed atheistic world?

LordReed:
I have no problem with what Dawkins said. What I have a problem with is blaming "atheistic world" for what religious people are doing. Why don't you petition your god to remedy the situation since he doesn't like it, why point fingers at "atheistic world"? You claim your god is all powerful but you and him can't be bothered to do anything concrete about what he doesn’t like.

When will you change pls?
How have I blamed atheistic world?

Johel:
Stop self deceit... Christianity has done more harm than good in the world...stop self deceit.

Smiles

Another emotional opinion.

Emotions does not make it true, my friend

LordReed:
None of the politicians stealing is an atheist (openly anyway). Some of them even donate their loot to church so this your blaming of "atheistic world" is duplicitous.

Smiles. Seems you've got problems with the (in words of Dawkins) blind pitiless indifference of atheistic world.
Like I said, such act is permissible in such world but is wrong in God's sight.
So whether they donate to church or not does not make it right.

aribisala0:
You make it sound like "diligence" as applied in pursuing economic freedom is a virtue
I really do not know what you mean by climb high or biblical principle
Working purposefully is a UNIVERSAL principle whether or not you are aware of the existence of the bible and that economic freedom may arise from stealing, Ask Nigerian politicians, kidnapping and so on

The problem with religious dogmatics is a tendency to very superficial thinking tainted by confirmation bias and a lack of self awareness i.e. inability to self critique their mental processes

You make it sound like "diligence" as applied in pursuing economic freedom is a virtue
I'm not making it sound like it, empirically, it is a virtue. Even as you cited some UNCHRISTIAN ways of making money (which definitely hurt other creatures of God), it still requires diligence in doing whatever they do.

I really do not know what you mean by climb high or biblical principle
Working purposefully is a UNIVERSAL principle
Climb high is just another way of saying "make it". Here is a quote by Henry Wadsworth to illustrate 'climb high'
"The heights by great men reached and kept were not attained by sudden flight, but they while their companions slept, were toiling upward in the night."

Now, when I say it's a Biblical principle, it simply means that it's a universal law initiated by God.
After all, atheistic worldview eschew the word PURPOSE because it is associated with Christianity. (So much for your last paragraph)

and that economic freedom may arise from stealing, Ask Nigerian politicians, kidnapping and so on
Of course, this is allowed in an atheistic world in which the famous Dawkins said it's just "...blind pitiless difference". But it still requires DILIGENCE in getting the job done
This form is definitely not allowed in Christianity which preaches LOVE.

The problem with religious dogmatics is a tendency to very superficial thinking tainted by confirmation bias and a lack of self awareness i.e. inability to self critique their mental processes
I agree with you here to some extent because it applies to RELIGIOUS DOGMATICS. In the sense that I can easily lump even atheist into it as many clearly exhibit this traits you explained. In fact, it's the reason I call many "wannabe atheists"

aribisala0:
I got you to be saying that people need to work and pray . Together
I am not sure if you get me though

I am saying that you can only say that for yourself
Many people do well without any prayer at all

Of course, people do well without prayers, by just following the right principles. Which was why I said DILIGENCE is the primary principle for economic freedom. Anyone who's diligent in what he does will climb high (it's a Biblical principle also. Prov 22:29)

Prayers is an added advantage on such case.

indadi:
I don't know why I can't modify my post but for those wondering and asking I am 23 and graduated, and working as well
I remember someone who told his parents something like this and almost the entire community saw him as a devil incarnate
There are actually a lot of reasons for my decision but no matter what I say people who won't accept it won't accept.

I don't know what you practice before but some of us here have gone through the phase of unbelief before. I was in school then and was introduced to many info I don't know before.
It wasn't easy to just dismiss them, being the curious and inquisitive one right from childhood. But that curiosity made me search deeper and I got answers. It took months (few years actually), and an objective mind to drive through the tons of info for and against God to get to a conclusion.
Personal encounter did the remaining and I am forever grateful for his mercy.

I don't think you have done searching and counter searching before making conclusion, as your reasons are incompatible with what Christianity teaches in the first place (assuming you're a Christian), showing some form of inadequate knowledge.

And there's a difference between being religious and actually having a relationship with him.
Religious folks tend to be sort of antagonistic once you are not with them, but a follower of Christ is meant to LOVE whosoever

Image123:
And must the OP "brooch" the subject? Must you people evangelize?

Evangelism is done more in New atheism than in Christianity, with high priests: Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss, Neil deGrasse, Christopher Hitchens, etc with anti God sites serving as 'worship' centers inorder to get half truths to cement their beliefs

Johel:
Look around you and be honest with yourself,stop self deceit and sentiment.

I don't understand. The honesty is that Christianity is shit?
Like I said, it's just your opinion and is largely based on ignorance of what Christianity teaches.

Rather, you should be the one to heed your advice.
Be honest
Stop self deceit
And be objective, instead of allowing emotion and prejudice rule

aribisala0:
I hope you can get one very simple fact from the reality around you
That may be true for you but not for everyone as far as this material objective world is concerned
Many people do well without any kind of prayer and folk like you need to acknowledge and respect that with HONESTY
Japan, Korea, China, Singapore are reasonably successful nations economically and they are not Christian

Logically therefore on this earth people can do well without religion or Christianity

I just explained something now but you seem not to get it.

You don't need prayers to fly a plane or to do trade. It's a wrong culture that brought about such misconception. It is never a Christian thing.
Even the Bible teaches that being successful is factored primarily on diligence, then God can bless (maybe by preventing unnecessary loses, etc).

So, the premise is wrong to start with because religion is not the factor in determining how countries become economical successful.
You may do well to unlearn and relearn that

I laugh in binary numbers

aribisala0:
If someone has been foolish all his life and another person recognizes it then there is a tendency to hate that person

So someone shows you your 5 daily prayers x 365 days x 30 years is just self deception

That is a bitter pill to accept and swallow.

But this is obvious

Let us start with Christianity and Islam
Logically if you follow those two religions according to their teachings

ONLY ONE is correct and the other is no different from not having a religion. Some people say "we are worshipping the same God" but is that what the Pentecostal Christianity teaches? A BIG NO. It teaches There is no Salvation Outside Jesus


So in this life do "Christians" have a better life than Muslims or indeed than anyone?

The answer is obvious and ubiquitous . I do not even need to answer that


The reverse argument applies to Islam.

Therefore whatever benefit comes from following those doctrines whilst on Earth are available to those who do not believe in any God. The only benefit that they can have that others do not is going to their heaven but

IN THIS LIFE THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE from religion that accrues to them that those without religion do not get

Our culture has made folks to see religion as an escape from whatever PHYSICAL problem they face. Hence, folks pray and pray without WORK, with the impression that prayers solves all.
Unfortunately, Christianity is opposite of such idea. As the formula is Work + Prayers. It's found in one form or the other throughout the scriptures.

So people apply wrong formula and become angry when they get wrong result. Worse, others become angry after yielding to their own lust and things go South.
Other category (maybe like op) are not too comfortable with the moral obligations that comes with belief in God (such as no extra marital sex, no fraud or quick money, moderate social life when they actually want more, no hate but pure love, in fact, you are to pray for your enemies, etc). Denying God seem to be an escape and such folks will look for evidence to convince themselves of such wish.
Then most are actually "abused". Growing up in a hypocritical environment. Such that they easily see the fraud of their wannabe mentors.

It's a long way, but like the scriptures said:
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free

Johel:
Christianity is SHIT!!

Mere statement and your simple opinion.

Have a peaceful day

Though I don't have good explanation since I can't observed and investigate the phenomenon, I just want to disagree with those who claim that gravity is just enough to prevent water from rising. I believe we haven't forgotten the simple Physics of CAPILLARY ACTION. The liquid (water) will rise as long as it's surface tension can support it.

Again, the gushing water does not occupy the volume of the trunk as one part of the trunk which has been cut did not "bleed". This suggest that there's a channel in the tree which underground water must have slipped through due to capillarity. I CAN'T SAY EXACTLY, SINCE I CAN'T OBSERVE IT

HardMirror:
the video is not my evidence. i want you to watch it so you can take what is presented into scrutiny. i am not asking you to accept it. take an honest look and be very critical, but try to be honest to yourself. i have done same for the christian faith.

i have done same for the christian faith
If I may ask you, how have you done same thing with the Christian faith?

HardMirror:
if you are truly interested in the truth. please try your best to watch this and give me your feed back https://www.nairaland.com/6692494/honest-liar-amazing-randi-expose
please feel free to counter the message therein

Well, I'm not ignorant of magicians as I am fortunate to live in this age of information. Many information have been revealed that they are illusionists and I'm glad with this documentary also.
However, your faith must have been strengthen since you seem to be looking for reasons to strengthen your faith (faith in no God or his manifestations). Hence you must be glad about the Peter Popoff fraud (I'm also happy about him being exposed). Just that I believe you didn't pay enough attention to the details of the documentary. Else, you could have asked how possible it is that Peter was the only exposed fraud, considering the fact that James claimed to visit MANY of those camp meetings.
What's my point? I am a good skeptic, such that I had my moment of GREAT doubt in God. I have questioned so many MIRACLE claims and I am always on the look out for anyone who would be exposed (just like the Peter guy and other African fraudsters called man of God).
But I have issues with explaining how medical reports are being falsified (with no hospital coming out to debunk such claims. IF YOU WERE THE CHIEF MD, HOW WOULD YOU REACT IF A FAITH HEALER USED YOUR HOSPITAL MEDICAL REPORT TO CLAIM A DISEASE HAS BEEN HEALED, SUCH THAT YOUR HOSPITAL STILL MADE REPORT OF NO MORE DISEASE IN SUCH PATIENT), how baby developed without a WOMB, etc, and of course, how James was UNABLE to get explanation for other faith healing camps.

Even after my journey to faith with strange encounter, my eyes are still on the look out for what can normally be explained which is usually claimed to be miracle, or tricks claimed to be miracle. That's why I usually use the word wannabe for many NL atheists as most have a warped idea of believers in Christ and also not having in depth knowledge of atheism either. Most of us are not those gullible sheep who would believe just anything. In fact, as I responded earlier, it is not even a Christian thing to be gullible. .

So I'm not countering the fact that magic is illusion, I am informed already of that. Again, I'm not countering the fact that many tricksters appear to fool people in the name of Christ. In fact, they are only PROVING THE BIBLE TO BE TRUE (Matt 24:24).

My simple conclusion is that there won't be fake without an original

bukhety:
You jw?

No Ma

Image123:
Lol, so you conveniently agree that there are "wannabes"? It suits your narrative, right. Be deceiving yourself and gullible people.

Lol
I was surprised to see him also use it.
I then asked myself, is it that he just got the meaning? Or he knew all along, but pretending and forcing another meaning to it?

May God have mercy on him and his ilks

Modified
Going through the thread and seeing how he is bent on applying different meanings to same word, I am just amazed at what length some folks can go in defending lies.

Anas09:
Hardmirror the brokenmirror claimed there's no point in this post to counter apart from Wannabe

Lol
What was even frustrating was his definition of the phrase.
I heeded your advice already.

Happy Sunday Sir/Ma

Ishilove:
Don't mind Hardmirror. He has left the body of your message to be focusing on semantics. How laughable.

Your arguments are very sound, by the way.

Abi o

Thank you. God bless you

HardMirror:
yeye. your posts are there for everyone to read. what is atheist wannabe. a phrase you made up and want to force it's baseless meaning on everyone? i will repeat myself. the only way an atheist wannabe can exist if for that so called wannabe to actually believe in the existence of god while pretending not to. any other thing you say is nonsense. it is simple english ogbeni. people who try to complicate simple things are frauds

Suit yourself

HardMirror:
we aint saying same thing. the difference is as clear as night and day.
You are saying an atheist wannabe can exist who actually does not believe in god.
i am saying such cannot exist. an atheist wannabe can only exist if he actually believes in god.
so how can some one who does not believe in the existence of any god be an atheist wannabe? then what is a real atheist then?

you two are suffering from poor education. an elementary level grasp of english is sufficient for you to know we aint saying the same thing

I never said all what you claim I said.
I have explained myself, but you are bent on not learning it. Rather, you are forcing how you understand it on me.
It doesn't work that way my friend.


Then you resorted to adhominem, just for the fact that you don't understand what we have both explained.

HardMirror:
you are just contradicting yourself and making no sense. it is like saying there you are a wannabe human. the only way i am a wannabe atheist if for me to actually believe in god, anything else you say is nonsense

Image123:
You both said the same thing in different words. A wannabe is not real, he lacks depth. He just sees others and jumps on the bandwagon, without really knowing what he is doing.

Thank you o
I don't know what is hard in understanding simple terms such as that.

HardMirror:
you are absolutely right that triggered me because it was totally stupid. the only way a wannabe atheist can exist is for that wannabe atheist to actually believe in God. so you just used a lot of words to say nothing in this explanation. obviously you think being an atheist must be cool hence there must be wannabe atheists right?or what is the reason for your wannabe thingy.

and yeah, you say i should not attack you (because i called you a wannabe christian) funny you want to call others names but dont want to be called names. you clown

Alright. Let's dissect these.
you are absolutely right that triggered me because it was totally stupid
Like I said, if one doesn't understand a concept, it does not follow that such person call such concept stupid. That'll be laughable

the only way a wannabe atheist can exist is for that wannabe atheist to actually believe in God
This is just false. You may start by checking the meaning of wannabe, then read my previous response. I already explained it by using Christianity as an example.
FACT: a wannabe atheist is not one who believe in God and is still an atheist.

so you just used a lot of words to say nothing in this explanation
It's not wrong to ask, if one doesn't understand a thing. That you don't understand what I wrote does not equate to explaning nothing.

obviously you think being an atheist must be cool hence there must be wannabe atheists right?
Smiles. It's this type of statement (bolded) that makes me use words like wannabe atheists. If you really know what it take to be an atheist, you wouldn't write such statement.

what is the reason for your wannabe thingy.
In simple terms, belonging to a group without having indepth knowledge about such group. Just trying to fit in to such group. Like I said in the first post, being an atheist is beyond rejecting God just as being a Christian is more than mere believing in God.

and yeah, you say i should not attack you (because i called you a wannabe christian) funny you want to call others names but dont want to be called names. you clown
Calling me a wannabe Christian won't bother me. You only jumped again to conclusion, without asking how you attacked the messenger.

HardMirror:
are you even thinking at all or just want to talk for the sake of talking. just listen to your own crap. wanna be atheist my foot! you are an atheist just pretending to be an christian. you are a wanna be christian for sure.

From what you wrote here, your last sentence is not an attack, but same can't be said for the previous statements.
So that was what I referred to. All those words, just because you didn't understand the message. It wasn't necessary

HardMirror:
what do you mean by wannabe atheist? you mean there are people who believe in god or lets even be specific, are Christians, yet come out to say there is no god or they dont believe in god? how is that even possible? are you even thinking at all or just want to talk for the sake of talking. just listen to your own crap. wanna be atheist my foot! you are an atheist just pretending to be an christian. you are a wanna be christian for sure.

You clearly don't understand what I meant with wannabe atheists.
Let me start with Christianity so you can understand my word usage, as it clearly does not correlate with what you said. (And there's no point in attacking the messenger if one doesn't UNDERSTAND the message).
Just as there are folks who identify with Christianity, believe in God, attend services, etc, but don't really follow what the Bible says. That is, there's what makes one a Christian than just believing in God (after all, even the demons do). So also is atheism. It's not just mere subscribing to the no-God idea, it's a whole wide worldview in which many who identifies with it are really ignorant of


Anyway, looks like it's ONLY the "wannabe" word that triggered EMOTION here. Other blanket statement for your perception of Christianity seem to have been cleared, I want to believe

I wonder how wannabe atheists enjoy self delusion, like the ones stated by op. I think it makes them feel good and "intellectually" fulfilled.

Most times, wannabe atheists objections are outright straw man. Let's consider his points.

1. Emotion is part of every human. Being a religious person (I'll argue for Christianity henceforth) does not make you more emotional than an atheist. First point.
Secondly, it is not a MUST that you listen to gospel songs. And gospel songs don't ONLY talk of emotional stuff. You are assuming too much here. And most movies don't end in tragedy, gospel movies included. Or are you implying that movies where good overcome evils are gospel?
The reality of being a sinner is not to appeal to anyone's emotion. The saving grace of Christ is evident as hard criminals turn to peaceful and loving people.
If you are not happy with it, it doesn't make you right. On the other hand, you seem to have just expressed your own emotions (maybe to make you feel good)

2. To hope also is universal, whether an atheist or a theist. Just that what one hopes on differs.
Again, you've stated two behaviors of humans generally, but tried to use it in disparaging religion.
Your "hoping on the impossible" is a straw man for the Christian faith. There's the instructions for WORK + faith and that of WATCH + pray. Most wannabe atheists set up straw man to attack. So a Christian does not hope while doing nothing just as a scientist does not hope to get results without experiments.

3. Like you already stated, having a family or urge to belong to a family is also universal. Now, your last statement of wanting an apostate to leave miserably is unfounded claim. It's just in your head. In fact, it's not a Christian thing to do.

4. Irresponsibility
This is where you just merely expressed your emotions. Your very first statement is another unfounded claim. You went on to prove it by other unfounded claims.
Seems that your ignorance of what Christianity teaches is just overwhelming and you must of think that Christianity is limited to Nigerian culture where evil forces are the order of the day.
Pick a Bible and study, it'll save you these unfounded claims you bring up.

5. Appeal to Authority.
You seem to write this to justify your alleged atheism. Using the Bible truths to train up children is not wrong, except you show otherwise. It definitely contains moral absolutes with which we can build a sane society (most atheistic influence nations actually built their morals on religion, and I'm not saying atheists can't be moral - though, there's no justification for that).
Your claim that atheist must work to earn his respect is even a Biblical principle also (Prov 24:22).

6. No need to think?
This is where you got it all wrong. You just don't know what Christianity teaches, so you invent one to make yourself look sophisticated.
The Bible encourages critical thinking and it was this that led to the rise of modern science (I believe you were not expecting this). Scriptures include:
A. Test things and hold on to what's true. 1 Thess 5:21
B. Only fools believe just anything. Prov 24:15
C. The Berean Christians checked what Paul said to see if it's correct. Acts 17:11
And other scriptures.

It turns out that wannabe atheists enjoy some delusions to feel good of their rebellion against God by cooking up what Christianity does not teach and rubbishing it. A simple logical fallacy called straw man.
But those are easily knocked down (then they mostly shift ground to bring up another topic without acknowledging being wrong).
Just as the scripture says:
The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him. Prov 18 vs 17

dontbothermuch:
Believe me. The bite no pain as I expect

I don't think snake bites are painful. It feels more like being pricked by thorns.

LordReed:
SMH. You refused to clarify. If you did and I still misinterpreted it then it would be on me. You didn't, repeatedly.

If you'll continue like this, I'm off.

Do have a good day