₦airaland Forum

Ridiculous.

All it means is that the Libyan rebels hijacked the usual Afrocentric/black pride colors.


Which is ironic considering that they're going around targeting supposed black African mercenaries for beating.

MaziUche0:
The only form of writing system that was in Nigeria, besides Arabic is the Nsibidi that was practiced by MY people.

And like 4 other groups of people, but I don't see them in this thread talking about it. I thought this was a Benin thread?

Politics and Government: None.

The Arts: Wole Soyinka, Chinua Achebe, Fela Kuti, refer to their wikipedia pages.

Science: None.

Business and Economy: None.


Happy now?


But please stop with the Ghaddafi thing. It's ludicrous. The man is a disaster. If Nzeogwu and co. had taken over and one of the 5 had somehow ruled Nigeria as an internationally infamous dictator since 1966 (not that they wanted to do such a thing), would you be here calling whoever that was a giant on the world stage?

Most of Ghaddafi's publicity derives from his infamy, such as sponsoring the terrorist hijack of an airplane, trying to obtain nuclear weapons, supporting every bad guy he possibly can (Idi Amin, Slobodan Milošević, Jean-Bédel Bokassa, etc.), illegally amassing a fortune for himself and his family, and more. His Green Book is obscure and largely unread, his eccentricity is widely mocked (visiting countries with a tent and camel, keeping a legion of virgin female bodyguards, etc.), and the vast majority of people outside of his country know neither the name of his political regime (the  "Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" nor what his actual political philosophy is.

From your mention of Ghaddafi in a discussion of political genius, I have to ask: If Nigeria had managed to produce an Idi Amin scale political character who derived his world wide reputation from infamy, would you be happier because of that, just because it meant a Nigerian political figure was well-known outside of Nigeria?

amazonia:
Yes, is the same use by native religions practitioners. Is not limited to Olokun.
Though, olokun, ogun, orunmila and other deities's symbols are different, but the basic
forms are series of oooo and xxxx constituting forms of dynamism within creation.
Knowledgeable practitioners also use the form to record their yam harvest pen, and other stocks.
I am not proficient in it. I do know is written and read in columns.

Amazonia, these are the kind of Olokun symbols I'm familiar with:

https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1597/captureolokun.jpg

https://img231.imageshack.us/img231/414/captureolokun2.jpg

The first picture is from the book The Art of Benin by Paula Ben-Amos

The second picture is from the article "The Initiation of a Priestess: Performance and Imagery in Olokun Ritual" by Joseph Nevadomsky and Norma Rosen


So you're definitely right about it being written in columns/rows, but I still don't think the Olokun symbols constitute a written system for daily communication like ezeagu was asking about.

If you can find an image of this aroko writing, then please share it somehow. Or at least describe this binary writing.

https://img814.imageshack.us/img814/3734/capturebenintomb.jpg

The caption reads:

"Sketch of the burying place of a king of Benin. The explorer Giovanni Belzoni, who visited the Benin Kingdom in 1823, appears to have written the legend to this sketch, but, as Fagg (1977) points out, there is doubt as to whether he actually did the drawing. The depiction of 'one of 25 or 30 of the Tombs of the Benin Kings' accords with the anonymous description in the Royal Gold Coast Gazette. From the sketch it is possible to identify several types of objects which until now had not been associated with ancestral altars."

From The Art of Benin by Paula Ben-Amos

[quote author=X-factoria link=topic=392592.msg7861768#msg7861768 date=1299495033]The parts in bold:

Point 4:   How possible is it that the Europeans only listened to Egharevba and the Ooni of Ife and ignored the Oba of Benin (the custodian of the Benin tradition and history and widely reverred as such) in accepting evidences for the story published in the European journal in 1938??

Point 7: Socio-cultural heritage induced suppression of a "true story of a people" with educated folks as far back as when the history was written?? Thats laughable!

Point 8: The Ifa oracle came from Ife to Benin through Oranmiyan. There are so many "odu-ifa" which lends credence to this. Their was no dating at that time so the 17th century date is utter falsehood. In fact, any argument on dates may be totally unreliable. Sequence of events sounds more plausible. Then to say that Oranmiyan barely stayed in Benin is not true as well. His son, Iweka was of age before he left Benin back to Ife. He watched the child grow and was convinced that he could hold forth before he left Benin. He also beaquethed the Ifa oracle to him to guide him.

Point 9: How can the Oba antagonize his son's falsehood aimed at salvaging their age-long bruised ego?? Does the fact that his father didn't antagonize him lend credence to the story told in 1970??

Please let me know what historians say about the age of Ife and Benin?[/quote]4. I don't think you understood my point about number 4. My point was that immediately after publishing the first edition of A Short History of Benin (1934), Egharevba took part in a colonial intelligence report (1938) in which he and five others claimed that the Binis were in Ife in ancient times before moving on to Benin. He later repeated this in 1953 and 1954 and later. My point is that Egharevba implied a link between Ife and Benin was initiated by the Binis before Oranmiyan. Yet nobody complained that he was contravening the "authoritative" history that he had helped establish in 1934. Now that Akenzua, Omoregie, and others come with a version that makes sense, others are complaining because it doesn't match up with their interpretations, yet they were silent when Egharevba continuously changed histories.

7. It's about there being the wrong educated folks, i.e. Egharevba's mentors and influences all being actually educated folks who all lean towards one story and him being far less educated. Do you know about Egharevba and Benin in this period? Let's see:

"Egharevba once posed a question to the oracle in 1936, at a time of rising
Nigerian nationalism: "Would Benin ever rise again to become a great and
populous empire, fight wars, and lord it over others?"''2
He received a positive answer-of course, the oracle told him what he
wanted to hear-but the very fact of posing it was a commitment to Edo nationalism,
as he and many others became nostalgic over the famous Benin
empire at a time of an imagined marginalization of their town in colonial
Nigeria. In the 1940s he lamented the slow pace of progress among the Edo.
In 1948 he berated many Edo for abandoning the ethnic cause and accused
them of despising their land of birth.2' For Benin to rise again, the people
must unite. He offered a major piece of advice in 1949:

Let us unite for the improvement of the country (Edoland) for unity is
strength. Let us leave off the saying 'I am for the Oba' and others 'I
am for the country'. Let us rather be saying we are for the Oba and we
are for the country.
There have been changes from time immemorial, because if there is
no change there will be no progress or improvement at all, whereas a
country without improvement is void.22"

- The Scholarship of Jacob Egharevba of Benin
Author(s): Uyilawa Usuanlele and Toyin Falola
Source: History in Africa, Vol. 21 (1994), pp. 303-318


"Egharevba probably did not do much research on the earliest period
before going to press. Moreso, he gave his manuscript (Ekhere)
for approval to Oba Eweka, who advised him to remove some materials.
19 When both Ekhere and the first edition of Short History were
published, he was challenged by many people, who criticized the
book for either distortion or bias towards the reigning dynasty.20


20: The late Chief D.N. Oronsaye (1914-1996) claims to have been one of those who
accused Egharevba of distorting Edo history before the revised and enlarged Short
History2 in 1953. See Oronsaye, An Ancient History of the Benin Empire and Kingdom,
forthcoming, preface. Egharevba alleged that he was accused of some bias towards
the reigning dynasty in his work, especially during the political crisis that engulfed
Benin in the late 1930s and early 1940s. See Egharevba, Itan Edagbon Mwen, 29."

- A Comparison of Jacob Egharevba's "Ekhere Vb Itan Edo" and the Four Editions of Its English
Translation, "A Short History of Benin"
Author(s): Uyilawa Usuanlele, Toyin Falola
Source: History in Africa, Vol. 25 (1998), pp. 361-386



8. Please stop making stuff up. The 17th century date is from a tradition that a prominent Queen Mother of Benin introduced the cult of orunmila to protect of her son  and ensure his ascension to the throne in the 17th century. That's something that was collected as an oral tradition by an American anthropologist/historian before this claim about Oranmiyan being some Ifa priest.

See this

http://books.google.com/books?id=LPHLodczsOQC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=ogun+iron&source=bl&ots=qysL5lv1-y&sig=4ttzvTD1Whu7DW8PI_7vySnyuFw&hl=en&ei=6TF1Tbv0LvCw0QGr4-nEAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=ascension&f=false

for a specific quote.

If Ifa was in Benin since Oranmiyan (+/- 800 years), why are so many of the Yoruba gods (orisha) in Ifa unknown to Benin tradition? Why are the overwhelming majority of them obscure to Binis? Who's Obatala? Who's Yemaja? Who's Ibeji? Why do most of the Edo have no idea who these gods are? They know orunmila (god of fortune/divination), ogun (god of war and iron), and one or two others, but have and had no idea who the overwhelming majority of the Ifa deities are. Next time you make something up, try to make sure that it actually makes sense.

To say that Eweka was of age before Oranmiyan left is another outright fabrication that shows you've probably never even read the original  "authoritative" story that you've been here defending but instead are just making up as many things on a whim as could support your view. After Oranmiyan left Benin was controlled by the seven Uzama (who originally went to Ife to make the initial request) until Eweka came of age. Oranmiyan was long gone before the child was grown. It was these same Uzama that later crowned Eweka as king. There is simply no book, not even among those that advocate Egharevba's first story, as you do, that asserts that Oranmiyan stayed in Benin until Eweka was of age. This also makes no sense from a logical standpoint, if Oranmiyan was able to reign in Benin until Eweka was of age (13 or 14 years, at the very least), then why this stuff about him realizing that only a culturally Edo person could rule, integrate into the society, etc., without vexation and then leaving and going off to found Oyo? You do realize that the reigns of many of the Alaafins of Oyo and the Obas of Benin are held to have been less than 13 or 14 years, so why should he even have bothered to leave and found Oyo in the first place if he could reign for nearly a whole decade and a half in Benin? Once again, I ask that you approach things with some degree of rationality.

9. How can Egharevba sit back while his "authoritative" history is being eroded by the palace? He was being interviewed as late as 1975 about his thoughts on Benin history, so if he had something to say then about these new (1970) versions, why didn't he say anything? For the record, I pointed out #9 not because I think it has any significance, but because you kept asserting that the fact that the Obas of Benin (Eweka II and Akenzua II) consulted with Egharevba to some degree and didn't speak out against their first (1933, 1934) history means that they approved of every single claim that he made, which is ludicrous because by the same inane reasoning the Oba of Benin must have approved of every single later change to Egharevba's history by Egharevba himself and by others because the Oba didn't speak out against or oppose these versions. Oba Akenzua didn't say anything when Egharevba later introduced the claim that his ancestors were buried at Ife, despite the earlier writings of Egharevba specifically saying otherwise, so does that mean that the Oba (Oba Eweka II) who approved of the earlier writings in which Obas were buried in Benin was somehow some sort falsifier of the truth? (Pardon the language, for other people reading this, but that's the only way to put it, as that's more or less what's being implied about Oba Erediauwa.)

Also, I have to ask, if the Oba of Benin is "the custodian of the Benin tradition and history and widely reverred as such" as you stated, when you implied that the Oba of Benin's opinion on all of the history must have been incorporated into the first Egharevba account, then why is the current Ooni of Ife asserting that the heads of the kings of Benin were buried in Ife when Oba Eweka II somehow "forgot" to mention that to Egharevba when Egharevba originally had them buried in Benin in his writing?

Furthermore, if the Oba of Benin is the custodian of Benin tradition and history and is revered as such, how is Oba Erediauwa opting to go for a rational explanation and one which doesn't make Oduduwa as semi-mythical as in earlier versions, getting all sorts of passionate rebukes, even from J.F. Ade-Ajayi, who went as far as claiming that the Oba of Benin had no locus standi to say who his ancestor (Oduduwa) is likely to have been?


Also, what's this about age-long bruised ego? This might have escaped your attention, but Prince Edun Akenzua, like his father, is a descendant of Oranmiyan, so there is no version of the story, whether mine or yours, that could make him or his immediate family come out as "weak" or "inferior". He seems to think that the first story offered by Egharevba was illogical and he's on pretty firm ground there as far as Oduduwa giving away one of his sons to some unseen and unknown kingdom in "turmoil". If the first story is true however, it doesn't affect him in any negative way. In the same way that the Alaafin of Oyo is not, has never been, and will not be a vassal of the Ooni of Ife, and the current Alaafin will certainly not kowtow to the current Ooni, Prince Edun Akenzua's immediate family will never have to kowtow if the Ooni's version is somehow proven to actually be accurate.

[quote author=X-factoria link=topic=392592.msg7861629#msg7861629 date=1299493606]In the bolded: Thank God you mentioned Ife's influence on religion-inclined Benin arts. I wrote the following in my previous post:

"Oduduwa came to Ife with so many deities that were not known in Benin history. There are more influence on the Benin culture by the Yoruba culture which were attributable to Oranmiyan's sojourn in Benin for some time. Chief among this culture transfer is the Ifa Oracle and some Ife arts assimilated into the Benin arts. There are no known ancient Benin deities or spiritual beliefs that were present in Ife. This would have been impossible if Oduduwa was from Benin because he was a serious spiritual priest. In fact, record has it that in the 365days in a year, there is only one day in which sacrifices are not made in Ife. Oduduwa instituted this and it is still so till today"

Again I ask you, Is it possible that Oduduwa was a Benin prince who came to Ife to rule the people there without influencing their religion?? If the answer is no, how come no Yoruba deity has any Benin origin and how come we can find deities in Benin with Yoruba origin, at least we know of the Ifa oracle

Waiting for your response,[/quote]This is the kind of made up stuff that drives rationalists to criticize the original "authoritative" version of history proffered to us.


I have to ask a rational question with regard to distinguishing between which group originated which deity and when. How could you possibly know that there are Yoruba deities that were introduced in Benin at the time of Oranmiyan rather than much later? This is an unsupportable assertion on your part. The other unsupportable assertion is that Oduduwa introduced every single one of 400 Yoruba deities all at once, rather than these gods developing gradually among the Yorubas after he introduced some initial ones.

Take the Olokun deity, for example. There is no evidence that it was ever introduced from outside of Benin, unlike Ogun, which very likely derives from Yoruba Ifa due to its historical prominence in several places very far from Benin and even some places outside of Nigeria (such as Dahomey). Now Olokun on the other hand, is very highly developed, very central, and highly complex in Benin religion, but not detailed and not central in (standard) Yoruba religion, suggesting that Yorubas under Benin influence possibly adopted it into their pantheon of gods.

Take a look at these:

http://chiefdrdaryl./2010/12/06/great-benin-influence-on-the-yoruba-in-the-americas/
http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Inspiration-Benin-Joseph-Nevadomsky/dp/1890157171
http://santeria.tribe.net/thread/9f2460e6-27ca-4c87-9014-366efb3ab935


"Two Origin Stories of Olokun Worship
While most Olokun initiates in Africa are female, the legends that mark the beginning of Olokun worship feature stories of men being their initial worshippers.

The Hunter
There was a hunter that resided in Urhoniigbe. One day he ventured off into the woods to find the source of distant singing and was met by a King and his court. He decided to stay awhile and at the invitation of the King participate in a spiritual ritual that was to take place. He ended up staying as the guest of the King (who is Olokun, if you haven’t guessed by now.) for the following three (3) years. During this time he learned the spiritual sciences and worship practices associated with Olokun. His family and neighbors assumed he was dead after being gone so long. They were surprised to say the least when he returned mute and dumbfounded (without the ability of speech or general sensibilities) carrying a water pot on his head. He only danced to the shock of townsfolk. Eventually the crowd that had gathered began to mock his dance and it started what was to become a 14-day tribute of ritual dancing to Olokun. At the end of this period the hunter began to talk again and chose to share some of his experiences. All skepticism about his story were eased as his began to do spiritual work that created positive results for those around him. He was named chief priest of Olokun at this point. Even until today, hunters re-act this famous prodigal son’s life with the annual festival and Ekabo dance. Urhoniigbe’s Olokun temple sits on the spot where he rested his Olokun pot/shrine on the 14th day.

The Palm Tree
In Ebvoesi, there was a boy named Omobe (rascal, troublesome child) that had great physical ability and was trained to be a wrestler. As he grew older his wrestling abilities grew stronger and before long he was considered the greatest wrestler in the world. At his birth the local priest/diviner warned his parents to not allow Omobe to climb palm trees. But one day while his parents were away he decided to climb a palm tree any way. From high up he could peer into the spirit world and he noticed that several divinities had gathered for a fantastic wrestling match! He immediately climbed down and made his way to the spirit world to test his own luck amongst a variety of spirits. He beat every opponent. Ancestors, Gods and all others lost at his hands, even Ogun. Finally he prepared to wrestle Olokun. While he summoned all of his physical strength, Olokun drew on His spiritual powers.
During the match Omobe attempted to throw Olokun to the ground, but instead Olokun ended up firmly attached to his head. All attempts at removing Olokun from his head failed and Olokun declared it His permanent abode as a sign of Omobe’s arrogance and disrespect towards the other spirits.

When Omobe returned home the local priest/diviner advised him to appease Olokun or die. So for seven days Omobe made sacrifice. On the last day Omobe was initiated as the first Olokun priest. After this Olokun loosened his grip on Omobe’s life.

It is said that Omobe’s lack of respect for his parent’s, and spiritual elders and the divinities had landed his in such dire straits.

Edo State, Nigeria

In Edo State of Nigeria, the people called Bini (Benin City) regard Her as the mother of all creation, so they worship Olokun. Olokun governs fertility, social status and wealth and as such is very popular. Every year in Usonigbe a festival is held for Olokun. This is considered one of the first places that Olokun shrines were ever be constructed."

http://www./?p=50



In particular, note this:

" "In fact, the Yoruba and the Afro-Cuban Lukumi systems
have fused several traditions found in Africa. Deities
from Dahomey (Obaluaye, Nanu, Nana Buruku, etc.) and
Benin (Olokun) are among them. In the case of the
deity known as Olokun from Benin, John Mason documents
that, ', in the 12th century A.D, , Prince
Ekaladeran, the only son of Ogiso Owodo, was banished
from Benin City by his father, and then founded the
town of Ughoton, established an Olokun shrine for
communal worship, and later introduced Olokun worship
among the Yoruba. Ile Ife is the only city in
Yorubaland where Olokun is actively worshipped', ;
this, despite the fact that Orisas are known to come
from many places throughout Yorubaland, Dahomey and
Benin.
In contrast, Olokun is widely accepted amongst the
followers of Cuban Palo and Lukumi traditions, and is
considered to be one of the most influential and
respect deities.
"Both the shrine sculpture and the sacred drums
employed by the Lukumi in Cuba, when they worship
Olokun, shows a direct link with the Edo of Benin" ---
John Mason, Orin Orisa, 1992 " - from Respecting &
Recognizing Established Afro-Cuban Traditions"

http://www.edofolks.com/html/pub120.htm


Yet I've never had the gall and arrogance to assert that John Mason's observation proves conclusively that Ekaladerhan of Ughoton went and spread Olokun worship to Ife when he got there and that this supports Akenzua's story. Why? Because I have no way of proving such a claim. It could easily be the case that Yorubas, including those Yorubas at Ife, adopted Olokun worship later, although it is also true that the Edo "culture hero" prince Ekaladerhan is very much associated with Olokun.

Missed the pic.


Dayokanu, do re-post it and leave it up.


Thanks in advance.

excuses, excuses

@ OP

@ topic

No.



http://www.nigerianmuse.com/20080401203731zg/nigeria-watch/official-fraud-watch-towards-fraud-free-governance-in-nigeria/how-obasanjo-and-co-looted-nigeria-in-8-years-by-by-col-abubakar-umar-rtd/

^^^^

A must-read.

[quote author=U de vex? link=topic=618016.msg7859375#msg7859375 date=1299456174]No, the OP is clearly correct. Your point of view seems to make the emir of Kaduna more important to his culture than the traditional rulers in Port Harcourt are to theirs. Why?

Quite clearly, others have been able to visit the traditional representatives of the people, without them being some mega emirs. In so many ways, it tells who really cares for the smaller man. Obviously, Buhari doesn't give a toss.[/quote]Stop slanting my view. I was just saying that if rulers were relatively unknown, prominent politicians wouldn't call on them for visits.

Anyways, Buhari did visit one Nyenweali, so what are you saying about Buhari "not giving a toss"?

I'm not a Buharist, by the way. I just think that the opening post was unfair propaganda.

I guess I was wrong about the emir of Kaduna. There's an emir of Jama'a, whoever that is.


http://www.gamji.com/article6000/NEWS7712.htm

^^^^^

Hemp smoker.

amazonia:
@ op

las-gidi, is a slang coined somewhere in the old bendel state,( Benin)
by the 1970s Disco- tech generation. They use such slangs as gidigan,(turfguys)
and ehele-men.And lasgidi. Sapelociti for sapele, Waffi for warri. etc

amazonia:
@ Op,

Though there were teenage group that called themselves
Gidigans. It was an abbrevation for Ogidigan (warriors) May be
they later manipulate it to make lagos reflect themselves. Lasgidi, "the home of the warriors"

amazonia:
@hojjima,
As a person who used that word before, i can tell you is not quite the same.
WE then in Benin, called it LASGITY. Joint abbrevation of Lagos & City. Common
among the youths and teens. Grammer school ages. And Benin was nickednamed
Baffa or City of Blood.It seems it has evolved to lasgidi, lol.

T

^^^
That makes sense. Interesting.

Abagworo:
Frankly the truth remains that there is no traditional ruler of Port-Harcourt and there is also no agreed attire.This runs across the river into Southeast.Every small town has a traditional ruler known as "Nyenweali" which literally means "Landlord" and there are a thousand and one "Nyenwealis".

I think Buhari's campaign was restricted for security reasons.He however visited the Obiri of the Nyeweli of my own area.The youths were excited and cheered his envoy but I can confidently put it out here that 90% said they like Buhari but will vote GEJ for sentimental reasons once PDP shares money.They said Buhari is either poor or stingy.

Thanks for the info. I guess the OP's original claim was false. Buhari did indeed reach out to at least one Nyenweali. He couldn't of course, have visited a thousand and one of them, so he probably visited only the most prominent ones.

1. Nothing is amiss. It's known that there is an emir of Kaduna. Who are those gentlemen in Port Harcourt?

2. Stating that GEJ did not know the traditional representatives he was greeting and hobnobbing with when he went to use them for good publicity makes GEJ look both dumb and opportunistic. You might want to retract that assertion.

3. If those traditional rulers in Port Harcourt have already stood to pose with GEJ, wouldn't it make them seem like snakes to later pose with Buhari at his rally, after already standing to pose with a son of the Niger Delta? There may be more to this than meets the eye. Who says the traditional ruler in the silly blue outfit wants to be seen with Buhari?

1. Who are those people? Do you even know them?

2. Which of these style of outfits should Buhari and Bakare have worn? The type that Governor Amaechi and Goodluck Jonathan wear?

3. You can't wear just any traditional gear in some places when you don't have the necessary status/title to do so. Just pointing that out. Not that that was the reason, but it's something to take into account.

4. The guy in the blue looks silly. Just for the record.

Title of the thread should be changed. Extremely misleading.



"court as haven voted four times" - Tony Iyare, Special Adviser, Media Affairs to Edo State Governor.

[quote author=U de vex? link=topic=618016.msg7859025#msg7859025 date=1299451591]Acting is about the stage, but politics is about people and their values. You connect to people by showing respect, tolerance and acceptance of their traditions and culture. Instead, Bakare dressed in SW attire and Buhari in Hausa attire, even worse, 80% of their guests were dressed in Hausa attire.

I am at pains why the duo visited traditional rulers in the North and didn't see fit to do so down South, or were they being actors in the North? Both Bakare and Buhari dressed in Hausa attire in Kaduna as well, were they being actors?[/quote]Why shouldn't they be who they are? Why should they pretend to act like those that they aren't? I don't understand the indignation about them being only themselves here.

What known/prominent traditional rulers are in Port Harcourt? I'm asking out of honest ignorance. I don't know of any.

If there are traditional rulers in Port Harcourt that are more than village chiefs, maybe they didn't visit them because they would have to request in advance for an audience with the traditional rulers, which could take a while to get a response, and they would have to visit all the prominent rulers so as not to slight anybody.

What's the traditional Port Harcourt attire?

AjanleKoko:
Guys,
Note we are talking about Nigeria in the context of the developing world, the 'rest of us'.
I am particularly looking at Africa and Nigeria in context. How well have we done really, compared to our contemporaries?

I also think you guys are laying a lot of emphasis on IQ and academic intelligence, while I didn't mention it once in my original post.
Think differently for a second.

1. You did mention literature. I addressed that. I think Nigeria did decently in literature in terms of producing individuals of "exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work" though of course, I would have liked for us to have done much better.

"Nigeria has produced many prolific writers. Many have won accolades for their writing abilities, including Daniel O. Fagunwa, Chinua Achebe, Wole Soyinka, Femi Osofisan, Ken Saro-Wiwa, Cyprian Ekwensi, Buchi Emecheta, Elechi Amadi, and Ben Okri.

Critically acclaimed writers of a younger generation include Chris Abani, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Sefi Atta, Helon Habila, Helen Oyeyemi, Nnedi Okorafor, Kachi A. Ozumba, Sarah Ladipo Manyika, Dapo Adeleke and Nwobodo King Jeremiah."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_literature

2. What does having a soccer great who has won numerous individual awards, like Samuel Eto'o, do for Cameroon in terms of developing the rest of Cameroon? Aren't they still ruled by the same clown who has been ruling them for 20+ years? If Jay-Jay Okocha had won very many individual awards would it somehow have affected Nigeria's developmental progress?

3. You brought up Nobel laureates in science in your original post. I think academic intelligence is very relevant there. I gave you my explanations. If you believe my explanations are faulty, you could say why. I still don't agree with this idea that this black Nobel laureate in science, and from Nigeria specifically, is nonexistent because we're doomed to mediocrity and naturally mediocre people.

4. Nigeria's awful business climate has been addressed in multiple threads on this forum, right? How can you procure gold from a trash heap? I want there to be a Nigerian Bill Gates/Steve Jobs etc. as much as you, but I don't know that it's necessarily a problem of the right people not being there as much as it is about the wrong environment being there. I can't accept our mediocrity as proven until the right environment is there and the right people fail to materialize. You probably know more about this  problem than me. My advice is to try to be that individual yourself if you're in a position where you can attempt to do so, and/or try to influence others to be that brilliant creative entrepreneur by writing about this deficit of creative entrepreneurs in Nigeria in real life (on and off the internet).

With the above in mind, why did both Buhari and Bakare not dress according to local traditional style in Port Harcourt? Isn't that a display of arrogance and a way of saying that Port Harcourt and its indigenes do not count in Nigeria?

No. Not really. He's a politician, not an actor.

fstranger3:
Yes, you are right. he himself acknowledged that much. I have read classic Feynman twice now and I love the book. Funny enough, he never believed in the whole IQ thing. His sister had an IQ of 140+ and she was no where as brilliant as he was. And very humble.

Yeah, and he is also the only person to have ever had a perfect score on the maths section of Princeton's graduate school entrance exam. And that was when Einstein, Dirac and the rest of them heavyweights were in Princeton. The verbal section killed him.

So you see, I will be looking forward to your Nobel speech in year 20?? All I need is a 5 second acknowledgement as one of those people who always believed in you and encouraged you even in the face of constant attack from our  reetard, but egotistical OAU dropout turn Bristol grad.

Yeah, the emphasis on I.Q by some people (such as those high I.Q. societies) is mostly silly. Having an I.Q. of 180 doesn't mean that you'll ever even do anything original or creative. I read that that Marilyn vos Savant, the person with the "highest I.Q in the world" didn't even understand a lot of what she was writing about in her book on Fermat's last theorem: http://www.dms.umontreal.ca/~andrew/PDF/VS.pdf


@ the bold, rofl 

Let's let that little beef die out.

As for winning a high scientific award, I'll try, and I'll mention fstranger in my thank yous (after all, who'll even know who I'm referring to?) if I remember this forum years from now. 

fstranger3:
What about this guy:

"G. Okikiolu: The excellence of Black persons in Mathematics has not been limited to Americans, the Nigerian George O. Okikiolu works in London and has published 3 books and at least 190 papers, more than any other Black mathematician."

Yeah, but apart from the 93 of his publications recorded at mathsci.net, the other 97 are apparently from his own journal that he started. Not denying that he's a standout, because 93 publications is no mean feat.

lol@ the Feynman thing. I read that his trouble was actually with verbal/writing parts of tests in Gleick's biography of him, so that actually probably explains the 123 I.Q. thing. He got a very low score on the GRE verbal section according to Gleick's biography. But mathematically, he was clearly way way up there.

Yeah, I forgot Kunle Olutokun.

Also, add the MacArthur award winning (among other awards) John Dabiri, who was made a full professor in 5 years by Caltech.
(http://dabiri.caltech.edu/people/dabiri.html)

Then there's the early Nigerian physicist Alexander Obiefoka Enukora Animalu after whom the Animalu-Heine-Abarenkov model potentials were named.

1. I don't think we're going to agree because you seem to be driving at something kind of vague or being deliberately disingenuous just to drive home your point - which is just the all too well known fact that Nigeria has never lived up to its potential. But to imply that other black countries have produced a "true genius" and Nigeria has produced nothing but mediocrity, seems ludicrous to me.

2. By the very first thing you posted as your definition of genius:

"1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc."

Nigeria already has produced such individuals.

There is already Wole Soyinka, who wrote The Man Died (have you read that? it's flawed, but definitely exceptional) and Chinua Achebe (I know you've read some of his work) who wrote Things Fall Apart, No Longer At Ease, etc., yet you implied that all of the writers Nigeria has produced are inferior to Eldrige Cleaver and Mongo Beti of all people, which I think is disingenuous. Admittedly Frantz Fanon's and James Baldwin's writings are brilliant and I won't have any problem with someone saying they are better than any of Nigeria's writers. I also have to ask if you've read Elechi Amadi, he's not a genius, but highly original.

With regard to music, there is Fela Kuti. A man who introduced a new sound (Afrobeat) to Africa.


3. I outlined some of the reasons we haven't been more successful in #3 in my previous post. One significant contributing factor is that you can't assert that anybody who can get an education must be in certain lucrative fields. The other is the funding of education and research.

4. Bringing up Cheick Diarra, somebody with a Ph.D in mechanical and aerospace engineering from Howard University, in a discussion of genius, is why I say you are driving at something vague. In the normal sense of the word genius, he only technically qualifies in the sense of someone who probably has an I.Q. above 140, but that's insignificant. Even I have an I.Q. above 140 and I'm Nigerian. What work has Cheick Diarra produced that shows "exceptional natural capacity of intellect" that is "creative and original work in science, art, music,etc."? You do know that his publications can easily be found out on google scholar or ISI web of knowledge, and similar sites? When you find one of his works which meets those criteria, let me know.

What is the significance of being chairman of Microsoft Africa, exactly? A Nigerian, Nosa Omoigui, was at a high position at Microsoft Research at the age of 28: "Omoigui rose quickly through the ranks, working in television and digital media and eventually landing a program manager position at Microsoft Research. At the tender age of 28, he found himself sitting across the table from the likes of Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer at high-level product review meetings."

"Prior to founding Nervana, Nosa spent 6 years at Microsoft Research and Microsoft, where he was a Development Manager, Research Manager and designated Technology Strategist."

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2006/02/20/focus2.html

http://gilbanesf.com/speakers.html

Not that I consider Nosa Omoigui a "true genius" because I don't, if I understand the level of genius we're talking about, but this Nigerian was involved in the development of the company's actual products, not just acting as the face of one of it's regional branches.


The same question with regard to Google's country manager for Nigeria. What's the significance exactly? As for the Kenyan who was hired as country manager for Nigeria for Google, are you under the impression that Kenya produces more people who would be qualified for such a position than Nigeria? If so, please substantiate this insinuation.

I don't think Cheick Diarra, Calestous Juma, and similar individuals are geniuses by any of the definitions you posted except the I.Q. test one, which, as I said before, is insignificant.

If we're just talking about scientists with some degree of publicity, how about this individual: http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/next/archives/2010/02/introducing_ted_22.html

Is Ndubuisi Ekekwe not Nigerian?

Not that I consider him a "true genius" either.

How about this individual, Robert Okojie, another Nigerian, that NASA is promoting?

http://rt.grc.nasa.gov/main/featured-innovators/dr-robert-s-okojie/
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news-0/125300366497400.xml&coll=2

Not that I consider him a "true genius" but he seems to far exceed Dr. Diarra in meeting the criteria of the definitions of genius found at dictionary.reference.com.

4. I don't understand how anybody can think Muammar Ghaddafi is a political genius. The man is a barely sane (probably not, actually) dictator.

5. Nkrumah had to be overthrown because he was bankrupting his country and becoming totalitarian.

6. If "a person who strongly influences for good or ill the character, conduct, or destiny of a person, place, or thing" is an acceptable definition of genius, then every person who was in any position of government in Nigeria was a genius, especially if strongly influencing the character and destiny of people and places for ill is genius-like activity.

[quote author=isale_gan2 link=topic=590933.msg7852946#msg7852946 date=1299361289]Jokes, I dig.  Do you like Chris Rock? Best performance of his was, if I remember correctly, "The Black Album" or was it "Back in Black"?  (I'll go by memory; tired of checking Google for everything.  lol.)

Where are you? US or UK? 

And when did you become a "bully"?  Yeah, right?  [/quote]Yeah, definitely a Chris Rock fan. I think you're referring to "Bigger and Blacker." A classic.

I'm in the U.S.

1. Define genius. Has Jamaica produced several "geniuses" because they've produced many gold medal winners in sports?

2. Okocha: "Okocha never won the African Player of Year award, becoming arguably the best player never to win the award despite coming second twice in 1998 & 2004. He did however win the inaugural BBC African Footballer of the Year and the successive one, becoming the only player to retain the award and win it more than once. In 2004 he was listed in football legend Pelé's FIFA 100 (a list of the greatest 125 living players of all time). In 2007 he was voted number 12 on the greatest African footballers of the past 50 years list, on a poll conducted by CAF to coincide with their 50th anniversary." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay-Jay_Okocha

Aren't those individual awards?

I don't claim to know much about football, so I'll desist from dwelling too much on that.

3. How could there possibly have been a Nigerian Nobel laureate in science? Does Africa have a scientific culture? Has the Nigerian government ever given out significant scientific research funding prior to the meager 1% coughed up by Goodluck Jonathan's administration? Do people who study pure sciences that can be rewarded with a Nobel prize get applauded in Nigeria or do they get looked upon as fools while people who go into health care, engineering, finance or law get looked upon as demigods? Does Nigeria have many adequate, high-quality primary and secondary schools comparable even to the elementary, middle, and high schools I attended in America, let alone those academies and magnet schools (Stuyvesant, Bronx high school of science, and the many others listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Consortium_for_Specialized_Secondary_Schools_of_Mathematics,_Science_and_Technology) attended by future Nobel laureates?

Does Nigeria have 150 high quality universities? Does Nigeria even have 150 medium quality universities? Does Nigeria even have 25 high quality universities? Does Nigeria have 15 high quality universities? Does Nigeria have 10 high quality universities?  etc. etc.

And last, but certainly not least, does Nigeria operate on merit?

4. How was Kwame Nkrumah a political genius? Please read up in more detail about the glaring failings of Nkrumah.

5. How is Ghaddafi a political genius? The Green Book?  Let's be serious.

There isn't a pretext to ban him from competing in the primaries, but is it really the case that just any person can contest in a political party's primaries? If that was the case, then primaries would have 20 or 30 individuals. But they never do.

My point is that if some bigwigs of the CPC had something against him, his family name, or his past statements, as this story about Isa vs. Abacha suggests, then there was no reason for him to be allowed in the party in first place. That he was allowed to join, and then allowed to proceed with contesting, shows that some people in the CPC were on his side. I have a guess about who those people were.

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=617248.msg7853469#msg7853469 date=1299366436]So what should have been done? People (e.g., @wesley80) seem to be criticizing what happened without offering an alternative.[/quote]They (the CPC) should never have allowed Mohammed Abacha to contest on the party's platform if they were averse to him being governor of Kano in the first place (as this story seems to suggest they were). He could just be expelled from the party (anti-party activity; not following the directives of the party leaders) if he decided to contest without their approval.

That he was able to join the party, and then able to contest on their platform shows that someone or some people in the CPC were fine with it and may have given him the go ahead earlier only for them to oppose him as candidate when he actually won (to their surprise, probably).

PapaBrowne:
I watched the video carefully with objectivity and without bias!!

I have three conclusions!

1) If these were fake, there is no way the crowds would keep coming!! Frauds don't last! Surely, those following him are gaining loads from him in some way hence they keep following him! I did a youtube search and found that these crowds follow him everywhere! I saw videos of the Pastor in Canada, UK and a host of other countries with similar crowds and similar occurences!! So it doesn't seem limited to Nigeria!

2)The crowd in the video don 't look like they are hungry! They all look well fed and well dressed! From that I assume they are very well educated middle class folks who are capable to discern for themselves whether or not these are real. They all seemed to get extremely excited after the girl stood up! They probably knew something about the girl that we don't know. They probably knew she was pretty sick and couldn't stand!! If she couldn't stand before and all of a sudden she is jumping, then surely that is supernatural!

3) To those saying poverty and the rest are responsible for this, I think you are just narrowminded and seeking an identity! America, which is and has been the richest and most advanced country in the world is still the epicenter of these kinds of gatherings!!
A pewresearch report confirmed that that 80% of Americans believe in miracles!!
You can check it out on the link!
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/miracles-world-news-question-day/story?id=9908545

So to those insulting others for believing, don't think that not believing in miracles makes you more sophisticated in any way! You are actually just closeminded! One of the key characteristics of intelligence is open mindedness!!

1. Maybe those in these crowds are naive, gullible and trusting.
2. Being well dressed in church has absolutely nothing to do with being well-educated. Go to a church in any Black or Latino hood in the U.S. and you'll see sharp, well-dressed, dapper Black and Hispanic people. Yet we know from statistics that those areas tend to have the fewest educated individuals.
3. 80% of Americans believe in these kind of 'miracles'? Or they believe God's son could be resurrected from the dead, a man who speaks with God could part the sea, the son of God could walk on water, etc.? There is a significant difference.
4. It's important to be both open minded and logical.

Not harsh enough on Bode George.