₦airaland Forum

Whatever non black North African element that was there was NEGLIGIBLE oerhaps less than 5% of the population, until the Greek, Roman, and Arab invasions. This is why the Egyptians were UNIFORMLY described as ''black skinned with wolly hair'' by ALL the ancient visitors to the region. This was why Diodorus Sicilus (1st century BC) was told by the people south of the sahara whome he visited, that ''The Egyptians are colonists sent out by us. Their form of writing, their customs, their religion are all Ethiopian''

THAT'S the history of the place. The western Egyptologists you come here to parrot ALWAYS IGNORE these ancient texts because they relate something totally differebt from the lies they propagate, with your assistance.

Look, Rossike, I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this, because we're just not going to agree. I know what I've seen in lots of books, not just stuff you can find on the internet, and that's why I am arguing (honestly) for the position I'm taking about the "non-black" looking elements being indigenous to Africa (not Eurasia), but also being there in Egypt in ancient times. I do not have the time to dig up all the books I read and looked at years ago in libraries when these  kind of questions were on my mind, as I really have more important things to do. But you're really misinterpreting my motivation in trying to counter the kind of stuff I'm reading.

By the way what you posted above (by Diodorus) is the one thing we can actually agree on. I have always held that the Kushites developed first, moved northwards and brought their culture to the more northern groups, and I think further archaeology will bear this out. If you're familiar with Bruce Williams' work (one of the dreaded "Western Egyptologists" on Kush, you'd understand where I'm going with this.


As for the supposed Afroasiatic or Egyptian character of the Yoruba language, I'm really not going to get into a debate on this, considering that it's not my language, but I'd prefer if it you could provide a very full analysis of the connections, not just some words. People can claim or stretch anything.

As for migrating from East to West, and that being reflected in traditions, there's nothing surprising about that, but East does not necessarily mean Egypt.

Rossikk:
PhysicsMHD said

I'm quite frankly sick of people like you who come here to regurgitate western fantasies borne of their racist agenda. You're just here mouthing rubbish about things you know nothing. Virtually EVERY Ancient Egyptian tradition remains in existence in West and Central Africa till date, indicating 100% cultural continuity between the Nile Valley civilizations and its African offshoots. Go and read Olumide Lucas, and some other modern AFRICAN authors who know Egypt, like Cheikh Anta Diop, instead of wasting your time studying compromised western 'Egyptologists' who are mainly paid-up propagandists there to tell us that Egypt was not African to suit their racial agenda.

Now, even when we clearly see BLACK AFRICANS on the artefacts and so on, YOU still come here to try to tell us that they are 'not really African'. Why don't you take your Uncle Tom self and go on some western forum and try convincing them that the Greeks 'had nothing culturally to do with Europe' and see how they'll respond to you, yet you think you can come here to mouth such ignorant garbage in relation to Africa?

Excerpts from Olumide Lucas' The Religion of the Yorubas showing unmistakeable racial and cultural connections to Egypt.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139

1. Where did I say the Egyptians were "not really" African? My point is that the indigenous black African element in their culture was there, but so was an indigenous non-black North African element. They were both there from the earliest times and they originate from the same place (not outside of Africa). Neither was "white", but the notion that Egypt was some entirely "black" country is misleading and a stretch.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/holybook/articles/race.html

And would you consider somebody like this (a Copt, Sir Magdi Yacoub), to be "black"?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Magdi_Yacoub.jpg/220px-Magdi_Yacoub.jpg

https://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/02531/full/pics/30.jpg

Of course not. But that kind of phenotype was there along with the ones we would, in modern times, consider "black" since the earliest times. That's all I want to point out. He's definitely not "white" racially, but that kind of look is a legitimate authentic non-Arab, non-Persian, non-foreigner Egyptian look and always has been.

Watch this video (by S.O.Y. Keita) and note on the map (at about the 7:30 mark) where the origin point for the Afroasiatic language group (including those spoken by "non-black" looking North Africans before any Arab influx) in Africa is placed:

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS3yFCoIdXc&feature=player_embedded[/flash]

Those "non-black" looking North Africans, originate from East Africa, and the presence of them in Egypt in ancient times should not be so difficult a concept to grasp. When one counters the claim that the entire country was "black" because the "black looking" element was there as well as the "non-black" looking element, there's nothing "uncle tom"-like about admitting that. Just trying to be "honest" and keep the over claiming in check.

2. Olumide Lucas's argument is hardly all that convincing. Multiple Nigerian groups have claimed at one time or another to have come from Egypt or the Sudan (including my own) and similar arguments about some words are usually constructed, but no really strong evidence of any overall correspondence between the language, its structure and characteristics and most its vocabulary to Afroasiatic languages is actually established. I think you should get in touch with Negro_Ntns on this forum to see if he plans to publish anything on the alleged connection of the Yoruba language to Afroasiatic languages because he seems to be the only one convinced of a Yoruba to Afroasiatic language link. There is really nothing at the present time to prove an Afroasiatic connection.

3. I don't think you, or Lucas, really understand the implications of your own arguments for the cultural subordination of your groups (Yoruba and Igbo) to Egypt, but I'm not going to bother to debate that at this time. You can believe what you want.

resw,

About Cleopatra? Did I ever write that you "cared" much what she was? I was just pointing out why she was promoted and countering all that crap about a so called mixed racial skull type.

I don't care about Cleopatra either, but I don't need to allege a media conspiracy when I see her portrayed as an oyibo or when I see her promoted at all (given her tumultuous life). I watched a discovery channel program on Egypt a few years back where they had a black man  (probably African American) portraying Akhenaten for the purposes of their historical reconstructions and dramatizations. And that documentary was also written, directed and produced by oyibos.

You are free to ignore the connections of Nile Valley civilizations to elsewhere in Africa, but there's no way that there can be so many coincidental similarities. Again, you said they were unique, I pointed out important similarities, and you can come up with any excuse you wish for how coincidental the similarities are, but you've been proven wrong as to their uniqueness. Let's not forget which civilization is older, and therefore the likely progenitor.

How have I been proven wrong with respect to their "uniqueness"?

1. You mentioned matrilineal customs, but

a) the Egyptians are nowhere close to being the only group of people that have any matrilineal customs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineal_succession


b) the matrilineal customs of the Akan peoples are distinct from any of the several other (which is why I even asked you if there was anything in Egyptian culture like abusua) groups with their own matrilineal customs, which you can't be silly enough to think are all derived from Egypt.


2. You mentioned circumcision, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Egyptians are the source of the practice of circumcision, and indeed, the same Herodotus some people like to quote does not state, suggest, or insinuate that the practice of circumcision from the "earliest times" is Egyptian in origin, but instead claims that the "Ethiopians" (non-Egyptian blacks) have been practicing it from the earliest times just like the Egyptians. Apart from that, in this instance you produced "0 evidence to prove otherwise."

3. You mentioned leopard skin. Apart from having "0 evidence to prove" that it was Egyptian derived, you conveniently ignored how its use among the Akan did not exactly match its use along the Nile, even though there were strong similarities. There is no reason to assume they could not have arrived at their uses of it independently, given the prestige of that animal in ancient societies where it was found.

4. The carved headrests of Egypt were not identical to all of those in other parts of Africa just like they weren't the same as those in Ecuador. That Egypt does not own the cultural copyright on something as basic and simple as a headrest shouldn't be so hard a concept to grasp.

Also, this headrest thing is really the most absurd thing you've posted so far, but you're probably somebody with no grasp of the level of development of any non-Egyptian African cultures so you probably DO think they couldn't make headrests without lost and confused Egyptians wandering in amongst them (and forgetting to bring their papyrus technology, their clothing, their religion, their symbols, etc., but somehow remembering to bring their "headrest making technology" or "headrest making customs"- lol @ the absurdity of this).

I'm sure that earlier in this thread when pictures of combs were posted by one poster to suggest cultural similarity and affinity, you would instead actually try and suggest that Egyptians dispersed combs to all the poor, style-less, unkempt, helpless non-Egyptian blacks who could never have conceived of combs without contact with stereotypically culturally advanced Egyptian wanderers and refugees.

5. The god claim of yours really was a totally insignificant observation. I have neither the time nor patience to list every single group with a similar belief in that type of god as that might take hours.

And by the way, Egyptian cosmology and religion was very different from that of the Akan peoples, but since you don't know anything about the Akan peoples' religious beliefs and practices, you would try to use the existence of an all powerful god manifesting through nature for comparison as if that were not a widespread concept.




Your similarities were basically worth nil. This is not to say that there aren't some similarities, but for the most part, these really are not them.

With regard to "Nubians," I don't expect you, who knows not much about Kemetic history, to quickly grasp this concept.  The Egyptologists have really got you confused, and it's sad,   First, "Nubia" is not synonymous with "Kush" "Kush" was "KAS" or 'Kash" in Ancient Kemetic texts, and was a specific place along the Nile in present-day Sudan, not the entire area to the south of Kemet (just like "Egypt" or "Hakaptah" is a specific place NOT synonymous with all of Kemet).  "Nubia" was in the 1500s AD first made synonymous to the area of desert to the WEST of the Nile.  This designated area did not include places like Aswan and former Elephantine that modern Egyptologists now associate with "Nubia."

You're not getting it. I've already come across this argument before. Now let's look at this logically

a) Kas/Kash was a rival empire along the Nile in Sudan, and it had a source. The Kerma culture (a Kushite culture) is one of them. This same Kerma culture's capital city, Kerma, was where statues honoring Taharqa (from the 7th century B.C.) were much later erected. These were discovered in 2003. So there is continuity between the extremely ancient city of Kerma (going back much further than 2000 B.C.) and the Kushites who conquered Egypt in the 8th century B.C.

Furthermore, the Kerma archaeological site contains remnants of ancient buildings and features that are distinct from Egyptian culture.

b) Nubian as used in the literature is not referring to a cartographic location, but to the Kushites. It's NOT the case that the literature is explicitly claiming that there was an ancient large "nation-state" called Nubia, and then labeling all its inhabitants Nubians, rather it's the case that the literature is claiming that there were an ancient people (the larger group of Kushites) and labeling all related groups Nubians precisely to avoid confusion between the single kingdom of Kush and the much larger overall group of Kushite people (Nubians) and the kingdoms that the Kushite people later spawned that were distinct from the kingdom of Kush. Calling every kingdom that the Kushite people (Nubians) formed a "Kushite" kingdom before Kush existed or after Kush was long gone would only lead to confusion.

Whether the name Nubia derives from Nuba, Nobatia or the Nobatae, or what have you, the name Nubian is now being used to designate a certain larger group. The word is being used to essentially mean "Kushite" regardless of whether the time period being referred to is one in which Kush is a fully fledged kingdom or is not extant. Get it? It doesn't matter what the "area" called Nubia was claimed to be in shitty 16th century cartography, what actually matters is what the geographical spread of the Kushites was and is and whatever that geographical spread was, that was all of Kushite/Nubian land, so that area will (in modern times, I'm not talking about 1500 AD) be designated ancient Nubia. This isn't too hard to grasp. It's not some sort of conspiracy. It's precisely for the reason you noted (that Kush was a specific kingdom) that the use of the word Nubian becomes virtually unavoidable. For example, Kerma is much older than the Kingdom of Kush, and Makuria is much later, but Kerma, Kush, and Makuria are all part of the Kushite legacy because the same larger group of people are responsible for all of it.

You're getting hung up on terminology. This isn't the first time that a modern label has been retroactively applied to a larger group for purposes of labeling a group.

Egyptologists are not using "Nubian" to designate any really dark looking person depicted in Egyptian art anyhow they want like you might want to think. Kushites and Egyptians had a high level of interaction so the fact that Kushites were often present on Egyptian art is nothing unusual and it doesn't mean that they were really one people and there's a vast conspiracy to call all the medium brown skinned people Egyptians and call all the darker brown skinned people Kushites and separate them into two peoples. They actually were two peoples! 

And I've even read books years ago written by the same Egyptologists you accuse of being at the helm of a massive conspiracy where very dark  looking individuals were still designated as Egyptians (not Nubians or Kushites).

Please show us just one instance wherein the Kemetic people distinguished themselves from so-called "Kushites". The Buhen stela says "King's Son of Kush, Sety" ! LOL

Why would I have to show you anything? I already gave you a link where the Egyptians were actually bitching explicitly about being overrun  by Kush and Kush's allies (such as Punt) and how they barely scraped by due to one leader's heroic counterattack. Read the link I gave you in my last post about the 17th dynasty invasion.

It even confirms that loot from the beatdown they gave Egypt was taken and carted away and buried in Kush:

"The discovery explains why Egyptian treasures, including statues, stelae and an elegant alabaster vessel found in the royal tomb at Kerma, were buried in Kushite tombs: they were war trophies.

Mr Davies said: “That has never been properly explained before. Now it makes sense. It’s the key that unlocks the information. Now we know they were looted trophies, symbols of these kings’ power over the Egyptians. Each of the four main kings of Kush brought back looted treasures.”

The alabaster vessel is contemporary with the latter part of the 17th Dynasty. It bears a funerary text “for the spirit of the Governor, Hereditary Prince of Nekheb, Sobek- nakht”. Now it is clear that it was looted from Sobeknakht’s tomb, or an associated workshop, by the Kushite forces and taken back to Kerma, where it was buried in the precincts of the tomb of the Kushite king who had led or inspired the invasion.

The El Kab tomb was looted long ago, probably in antiquity. There is more to investigate at the enormous site and the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Egypt is now making such work a priority.

Rich pickings from ebony and ivory

Kush was a vast territory spanning modern-day northern Sudan. Ruled by kings who were buried with large quantities of luxury goods, including jewellery and inlaid furniture, it had complex political and religious institutions."



The Kushites were not interested in occupation, so they moved on after invading and didn't keep up a continuous invasion and subjugation of the country.

The sources for history on Kush were written by Egyptians and then Greeks and Romans and were pro-Egypt, which had for years given scholars the misleading impression that Kush was Egypt's weak junior neighbor, until more and more archaeological discoveries showed that this was nonsense.

Like I said before, these were distinct political/social groups. When the Kushites were thrashing the Egyptians during Egypt's 17th dynasty, I don't think the Egyptians forgot that Kush and her allies, like Punt, were distinct, separate groups and their writings confirm this.


As for the Buhen stela, you do realize that Egypt held dominion over Kush at certain periods and appointed a viceroy there, right?


"Hereditary Prince, Count, King's Son of Kush, Overseer of the Gold Lands of Amun, Fan-bearer on the King's right, King's Scribe of the letters of Pharaoh, First chief in the stable, Eyes of the King of Upper Egypt, Ears of the King of Lower Egypt, High-Priest of the Moon-god, Thoth, Overseer of the Treasury, and Overseer of the letter-scribes in the Court of the Palace-of-Ramesses-Miamun, in the Court."

^^^^^

Those are Seti (the viceroy of Kush)'s titles from Abu Simbel. Do you actually read all of the rest of that literally as well? Not all of it can be literal. "King's Son" "Fan bearer on the King's right" "Eyes of the King" etc. cannot possibly be literal. These are all titles which have a certain import to them in the context of their language. How do you read "Eyes of the King" if you think "King's Son" is not an honorary appellation bestowed on him? If you think it's literal then do you actually think Seti was an actual "fanbearer on the King's right" as well?

You seem not to understand why the term would be used, so let me see if I can construct an appropriate analogy to make the way the title (King's Son) is being used in combination with the name of a vassal province of the empire seem more sensible in plain English.

At one point, the sovereigns of the British Empire not only styled themselves the kings and queens of the united kingdom of the petty little countries that are on that island of theirs, but they even had the gall to call themselves "Emperor of India" and "Empress of India". Why? Because  India was historically famous/legendary to Europeans for hundreds of years, and they had conquered all of it, so they incorporated it into their titles out of grandiosity/pomposity.

You get it? Kush was a major rival power previously. That's what archaeology (facts, that is, not my opinion) has revealed. Not an "occasionally rebellious province" of Egypt or a "weak junior neighbor", but a military powerhouse that Egypt kept trying to downplay in their writings when it was strong and kept trying to dominate and keep control of when they could. Please don't forget that the Kushites (Makurians) bitchslapped the invading Muslims in the 600s, scuffed up their turbans, busted up their keffiyehs, and made them agree to a stalemate.

If they did such a thing in the 600s against a military force that was sweeping through Asia virtually undefeated, they could certainly have struck fear into the Egyptians in even earlier times, like that 17th dynasty invasion of theirs did.

When the Egyptians conquered Kush and incorporated it into their larger Egyptian empire, they appointed somebody a viceroy of Kush and his specific honorific showing his overlordship and vicegerency of Kush was the title "King's Son", which, once again, cannot possibly be literal. The pharaoh Siptah was a child king, reigned for 6 years (under the guidance of Queen Twosret who acted as regent), and died at the age of 16. There were other child kings besides him at other times and yet they still went ahead to use the honorific/title "King's Son" to (functionally) mean viceroy regardless of the fact that the reigning pharoah, a child, could not even have had a son.


To give another example of the problem of trying to read certain titles literally in all cultures, there was and is a title in Edo (Benin) called Ologbosere. The title actually was Ologbo Iyasere/Iyase and was contracted to Ologbosere and it means "Iyase's cat" (Ologbo means cat in Yoruba, Edo, and Igbo, which are related languages). The Iyase was an even higher ranking title holder whose position was like that of a prime minister (and originally, a high ranking general as well) in the Benin empire and the title Ologbosere was derived in reference to him. The title Ologbosere indicating that the Ologbosere was the "Iyase's cat" may seem confusing to interpret in a modern context to somebody who is not already enmeshed in the culture, but it made perfect sense in the context of the pre-colonial culture of Benin. But nobody would be silly enough to suggest that it literally meant the Ologbosere of Benin was a cat.

Also take the title of "dauphin" in old France. Was there a dolphin in the court of the French kings? Of course not.

1) If you could read , I earlier stated, "I don't deny Cleopatra's Macedonian thieving ancestry" so why are you debating me about her whiteness?

Can you read? You clearly claimed that she had an "African mother" because of some loony Austrian researcher's pseudo-scientific claim about some sort of supposedly racially "mixed" cranial features in photographs of a skull not even proven to be that of one of her family members.

I pointed out that she was depicted as white by the same people that would have actually seen her.

All I did was point out that her mother was African, which is more likely than not, if you knew anything about the Ptolemaic dynasty and ancient Kemet's royal bloodline. I also said that she's an "insignificant" figure in Kemet's history who appeared after the conquest and made no great contributions, and she's not worthy of any discussion.

And what I said was that no, there is no actual evidence that her mother was African, because there is not.

There only exists a mere possibility that her mother was non-Greek, but actually, her mother could still have been yet another Macedonian Greek.

And I explained to you that the promotion of her by the West has to do with her tumultuous life. I didn't say that she made any "contributions" to Egypt or was significant in its real ancient history,

2) Yes, you clearly stated its distinction and minimized its connection to Kemet,

Right!

A thorough study of ANY of the West African cultures/societies/kingdoms reveals a very distinct culture and distinct cultural practices from that of Egypt. Find me even one West African culture which can be shown to be strongly rooted in Egypt and largely culturally Egyptian.

which I proved to be inaccurate due to waves of migration from the Nile valley at different parts of history,

Actually you tried to connect the migration of West Africans from East Africa thousands of years ago when these West African societies did not yet exist to migrations from Egypt, which is senseless. The cultural characteristics of these societies cannot be claimed to be specifically Egyptian derived simply because they were in East Africa so many thousands of years ago. And not surprisingly, any objective study of these cultures and their beliefs reveals that they are very distinct from Egyptian culture and beliefs. Yes there are some similarities, but that does not necessarily, for each case, prove derivation from Egypt.

including most recently in AD times, AFTER THE FALL of Kemet to the Eurasians (which you conveniently seem to disregard) and as late as 650 AD, following the first Islamic invasion.

I did not "disregard" the fall of Egypt to invaders from outside. I am not discussing theories of migrations from Egypt to West Africa in AD times, but rather your suggestion that since West Africans, like all of humanity, were in East Africa many thousands of years ago in B.C. times, that West African cultures and beliefs were Egyptian derived or Egypt based to any significant degree.

3) The similarities are too much to list here, but one example is that some Akan peoples have matrilineal customs,

What is there to suggest that the matrilineal customs among the Akan are directly derived from any Egyptian matrilineal customs? Is there any evidence that there was anything like abusua among Egyptians, for example?

Also, doesn't it seem absurd to you to suggest that there were supposedly "waves" of migration from Egypt from 3000 B.C. (or earlier) to 650 AD or later into West Africa but the only groups of West Africans with a matrilineal rather than patrilineal bias in their culture are so few and far between? The great majority of West Africa has a patrilineal bias.

practice circumcision,

Do you have any idea how great the number of people that practiced circumcision in ancient times was? Does anybody?

Herodotus may have claimed that the Egyptians, "Ethiopians", and Colchians were the only people to have practiced circumcision since the earliest times. But Herodotus didn't know the whole of the ancient world anyway and what he meant by "Ethiopians' is not perfectly unambiguous, but if one interpreted it as not referring specifically to Kushites, but to all very dark brown or "black" non-Egyptian Africans then it should be obvious that non-Egyptian blacks already had a reputation for practicing circumcision since the "earliest times".

This is not a unique cultural feature of the Egyptians by any means and it is not necessarily Egypt derived. The practice of circumcision was widespread throughout Africa and it is just another similarity between non-Egyptian Africans and Egyptians, not any evidence of cultural influence from Egypt to non-Egyptian Africans.

use the leopard skin in the craft,

In places where there are leopards, people sometimes used leopard skin for various purposes, sometimes political or religious. The prestige of this animal in places in Africa was nothing unusual or requiring outside inspiration from another group of Africans. This isn't  really a significant similarity at all.

use the carved headrest,

Carved headrests were found all throughout Africa and are not in any way shape or form evidence of specifically Egyptian influence. Rather, they are just one of several things that show that Egyptian culture had more affinities with many African cultures than with European or Western Asian cultures. To even suggest that something like this is evidence of Egyptian influence shows not only that you have hyperdiffusionist tendencies, but that you're too lazy to read up on the uses and significance of these headrests in each of the different non-Egyptian African cultures in which they appeared. Had you done so, it might have dawned on you that the Egyptian headrests are not the "source" for this object among African cultures, but that the real significance of Egyptians using the carved headrest as non-Egyptian Africans did is that Egyptians cluster in this particular aspect of physical culture with other black Africans, NOT that black Africans necessarily all derive their significant cultural practices (such as this) from Egypt.

This kind of claim in particular is one of the worst kind of these hyperdiffusionist claims - refusing even to dream of acknowledging that the elite or nobles among any other African groups would need to or could use something as necessary as a solid headrest that would preserve elaborate hairstyles while a person slept without there being an influx of (stereotypically) "culturally advanced Egyptians" among that group. A little basic thought would immediately suggest that the many African groups that use carved headrests would mostly have independently arrived at these carved headrests for reasons of inherent similarity between the different groups' peoples or cultures (in this particular aspect) or the similarity of the particular utility of the object in their cultures, NOT because they all copied  another African culture nearby or far away from them. Did the non-Egyptian African alleged "adopters" or "copiers" of the headrest all believe that it offered protection from evil spirits or that it was associated with the sun like the Egyptians did? No, some of them had completely different beliefs, and some of them just used it for practical purposes alone.

Incidentally, the Jama-Coaque people in Ecuador made very similar carved headrests in ancient times. I guess they came from Egypt too, right? 

Yes there was preponderance of carved headrests across Africa, but it's extremely unlikely that this is more due to some widespread Egyptian diffusion than it is due to inherent similarity between cultures in certain aspects.

believe in an incommunicable & all powerful god who manifests through nature

Now this is really the worst example. So many people believed in this kind of concept as to make this an extremely irrelevant example. I won't even condescend to discuss this.

just like the Ancient Kemetians, need more examples?

Don't worry about supplying me with more examples.

The irony here is, I'm almost certain that I know of more Egypt-West Africa similarities or possible links than you, but I'm not interested in mentioning what I do know on this particular thread because I wouldn't want to promote that trend of Egypt obsession/worship that I saw springing up in some of the posts on this thread.

But I also know that these cultures show more distinctness from Egypt than they show similarity to it. Have you ever actually checked out any book on any of the Akan peoples and compared their beliefs and practices with that of Egypt?

In fact, have you ever checked out any book on the Akan cultures at all? Even once? How much of their beliefs are you actually familiar with?

You've only mentioned simple and basic things so far, but you haven't actually done any in-depth analysis of traditional Akan religious beliefs and how they actually compare with those of ancient Egypt. For example, what is sunsum and what is honhom? What is the asamando in the Akan traditional worldview? What is adaduanan and what is its significance?

Before you started talking about this Akan-Egypt connection, were you even remotely familiar with the belief system of the Akan? Without resorting to a frantic internet search, could you give a real detailed account of any part of it? Or did the mere possibility that the Akan peoples had a unique and interesting view of the world independent of what they share or supposedly derived from Egypt completely escape you?

The problem with you Egypt fanatics is that you have such a superficial knowledge of some truly fascinating West African cultures but you want to force West Africans to believe in some significant migration and mass transplant of Egyptians into West Africa when the cultures and the beliefs of different West African groups are quite unique and distinct from Egyptian beliefs.

Akan culture is not Egyptian and the idea that its even an offshoot of Egyptian culture is extremely doubtful. Those kinds of claims are self-hate induced delusion resulting from European colonization.

Yes there are definitely a few very real apparent similarities or outright connections between the Akan and some "near eastern" cultures, as noted by Bowdich, W.T. Balmer, and Joseph J. Williams, but on the whole, the culture is clearly very much West African.

For a pretty strong and silencing criticism of the hyperdiffusionist attempts to place the origin of Akan culture in Egypt or the "near east" - such as Eva Meyerowitz attempted in her work on the Akan - and not in West Africa, you can get this article:

"Ethnohistory and the Akan of Ghana"
Author(s): Jack Goody
Source: Africa: Journal of the International African Institute, Vol. 29, No. 1 (Jan., 1959), pp.67-81
Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of the International African Institute
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1157500

Concerning your comments on the "Nubians." First, the word, "Nubian" was invented by modern "Egyptologists" to describe the very stereotypically African features that appear throughout Kemet.  The word, "Nubia" was a geographic term invented by cartographers in the 1500s.  Please show me some evidence where any so-called ancient "Egyptian" distinguished themselves from so-called "Nubians" (and better yet, please find just one instance of the term "Nubian" in any ancient kemetic text).

I am not concerned with the term "Nubians", rather I am concerned with the certain larger group of people who developed the Kerma culture, who formed the kingdom of Kush, and who invaded and thrashed Egypt in the 16th century B.C. (http://wysinger.homestead.com/article10.html), and later conquered it in the 8th century B.C.

The Kushites and the Egyptians shared the same origin in prehistorical times, but they saw each other as different political/social groups. That you think that they were the same or think they thought of themselves as the same isn't going to change anything.

And your asking me to look for "Nubian" in an ancient Egyptian text is laughable. I can't find "Egypt" in any real ancient Egyptian text but I've been using that term throughout this thread. I'm sure you'll object to that next, right? Diversionary arguments. The Egyptians called them Kas/Kush, we call them both Nubia and Kush, and so what? You and me both use the term "African", but how many Africans historically used that word as some sort of larger ethnic or "racial" designation for themselves or other inhabitants of the continent prior to European colonization?

One can call the Israelites "Jews" or "Hebrews", it doesn't matter. Everyone knows you're still referring to a certain group of people. One can call the Phoenicians "Canaanites" (from the land of "Canaan" even if neither Canaanites nor Phoenicians was what what they called themselves. One can call all groups who spoke certain languages in a certain area in ancient times "Semitic" even though they never called themselves that nor did anyone else until the 18th century. Labeling a group by a geographical area or a particular aspect associated with them doesn't always matter for the purposes of a discussion. Anybody would know which group of people you are referring to, anyway. As far as I am concerned Nubia is Kush and Kush is Nubia. I don't care about mere demonymic preferences.

If you actually think Kush and Egypt were indistinguishable and not separate (but related), you need to read up on what archaeological excavations of Kushite/Nubian sites have revealed about a distinct and ancient culture at Kerma.

http://knol.google.com/k/peopling-of-the-nile-valley#

^^^^
An interesting compilation of information there, for anyone interested in a northeast African society.



Those interested in West African cultures can check out the culture section of this forum, where there are a few threads about certain West African societies.

Katsumoto, thanks for the clarification on Akintola's style/approach to government and how it differed from the Action Group's principles and also for the info about the background of the different Yoruba groups back then. That definitely puts things in better perspective as to why he would be seen as feudalistic/elitist. I still think there was more to his divergence from AG than just that, but it was clearly a major factor.

resw,

You obviously believe the Nubians and Egyptians were the same people, and that the distinction between them is an artificial creation by Western historians. Fine. I've already come across that claim before (on egyptsearch and elsewhere) and I was never convinced by it. Let's agree to disagree on that. I think (from what I've read by Bruce Williams) that the Nubians were a rival civilization even older than Egypt and that because the locus of power shifted northwards to Egypt and stayed there for so long, the Nubians were written off as imitators of Egypt by later historians until the archaeology of Kerma and work by Williams on Qustul came out. I think more and more archaeology will establish that the Nubian civilization is older and the source for a significant part of Egyptian culture. But some of the kind of claims about Egypt (not Nubia/Ta-Seti) I read from some Afrocentrists, such as the stuff about Cleopatra being black are embarrassing in their desperation and bizarreness. And I think Egypt had non-black North African elements in its society from very early times, not just black Africans. I think I remember reading or watching something by S.O.Y. Keita on this a while back.

Kid (you are obviously a child), you've got me misread completely, but I'll humor you. I wanted to know your background, because I'm usually disappointed when I see Nigerian Egypt-freaks, obsessing over Egypt, but with a very limited range of knowledge about their own cultures. But if you're from some other group, it might be more excusable if you know so little of your own culture that you have to start obsessing over Egypt. There is a lot written about the majority of the different Nigerian cultures, however, so it's not really excusable for a Nigerian to obsess over Egypt while not gaining knowledge about his own culture and history.


1. Now on Cleopatra, let's take this logically.


a) Cleopatra was in Rome at one point (that is not opinion).

b) The Romans were perfectly capable of depicting her as non-Caucasian looking (as F. Snowden showed with his work on depictions of Africans in Greece and Rome), but they completely failed to do this or even note her supposedly non-white appearance.

c) The claim that Arsinoe had a so-called "African skeleton" as stated in that article you posted is conjecture and is no doubt based on ignorant European stereotypes about black African physical characteristics, not unlike those that led European researchers to claim that so-called "Caucasoid" physical features on certain Egyptian skeletons could not be black African, when some East Africans have those features naturally without admixture with outside groups.

d) A simple search turns up the following information on Arsinoe:

"The skull was lost in Germany during World War II. However, Hilke Thuer examined the old notes and photographs of the now-missing skull,[16][17] and concluded that it shows signs of an admixture of African and Egyptian ancestry mixed with classical Grecian features[8] – despite the fact that Boas, Gravlee, Bernard and Leonard and others have demonstrated that skull measurements are not a reliable indicator of race.[18][19] Afrocentrists have accordingly claimed that Cleopatra VII was black, in spite of the facts that:

    The skeleton is not proven to be that of Arsinoe;
   
    The shape of the skull is no indicator of a person's race;"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsinoe_IV_of_Egypt


But I"m sure you'll counter that pseudo-scientific racial-cranial classifications made up by ill-informed dead European "scholars" are indeed a valid basis to claim that Arsinoe was part African. Of course, to resort to such a silly argument would be subtly undermining your whole purpose, so if you have a brain you won't go this route.


2. "As I said, if you knew anything about your own West African history, then you'd know that West Africans migrated from East Africa, just like all humanity.  Please provide proof otherwise!"

When did I say that West Africans didn't migrate from East Africa?  That West Africans migrated from East Africa thousands of years ago has almost no bearing on the fact that the cultures West Africans developed are very distinct from those in Eastern and Southern Africa. Most of you Egypt freaks don't know much about the non-Egyptian African cultures in detail, so I understand why you would be silly enough to suggest that an early migration from a certain place thousands of years before these West African kingdoms and communities were even established would make that place the total source of their culture.

3. "that is another of your opinions (not fact).  It is documented history that the people of Kemet traveled and settled all over the world 5000+ years ago, whether you know it or not."

Give a complete breakdown on the influence of Egypt's cultural ideas and practices on those of specific West African cultures (that is, if you know anything about the cultural ideas, beliefs and practices of any West African cultures).

I don't give a damn where they traveled to in 3000 B.C. or earlier, since the West African cultures I am talking about do not date to 3000 B.C. or earlier and are separated from that time period by millennia.

If you had at least referenced a later period of time, you would have a more cogent argument.

4. "To suggest no Kemetic influence is just plain foolish."

And where did I claim no Egyptian influence? What's wrong with you?

The cultural ideas and practices of West African cultures are overwhelmingly West African. I am aware of Egypt-West Africa links, so don't get out your soapbox for all that. I'm making a point about why West Africans (Nigerians are included in this set) shouldn't be Egypt-obsessed.

She's just slightly above average looking. I've noticed some Nigerians tend to overrate Fulani-type features for no reason.

If you knew anything about "Egyptian" culture, which you clearly do not, then you'd know that there are many similarities between it and cultures ALL ACROSS AFRICA, "Egyptian culture" however is the complete opposite of your ancient European cultures

There are similarities between many cultures. I'm talking about more than just similarities, however. When I look at virtually any West African culture I see a totally different and unique cultural matrix and worldview. Whatever similarities might exist, these are fundamentally unique and distinct cultures and they do not owe their major cultural ideas and practices to Egypt.

First off, I'm not white. I'm Nigerian. What is your ethnicity anyway and why are you so interested in Egypt?

Second, my opinion that she was "white" was based on her appearance: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tyne/6357311.stm

There are other opinions, of course: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1095043/Sorry-Liz-THIS-real-face-Cleopatra.html\

But the truth is that her (Cleopatra's) legitimate mother is not actually known. And for the record, the article you posted means nil. Princess Arsinoe was her half-sister and only had the same father, but is known not to have had the same mother. Whoever her mother was, it wasn't the same woman who birthed Arsinoe. Could be African, could be something else. Not particularly clear yet.

As for where the Egyptians migrated from, what would that have to do with West African history (and archaeology)? Try and actually think before you post.

I don't debate idiots, so don't confuse me for someone who's interested in debating lazy individuals like yourself on the issue of Egyptian racial identity. I merely pointed out that the promotion of Cleopatra probably has much more to do with her tumultuous and controversial life than her appearance. I've already given my opinions on Egypt here:    https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-191038.416.html#msg9231930

But what I don't care for is all this Egyptian-worship, sometimes from people who I haven't seen post anything in depth about their own cultures, when these same Egyptians, while they were around, wouldn't have cared about anything but Egyptians.

tunnytox:
@PhysicsQED
nice one, please provide links to any of the books as I'm interested

The Osuntokun biography:

http://www.betterworldbooks.com/chief-s-ladoke-akintola-id-0714632198.aspx
http://www.bookdepository.com/Chief-SLadoke-Akintola-Akinjide-Osuntokun/9780714632193
http://www.abebooks.com/9780714632193/Chief-Ladoke-Akintola-Life-Times-0714632198/plp
http://www.allbookstores.com/Chief-Ladoke-Akintola-His-Life/9780714632193
http://www.amazon.com/Chief-S-Ladoke-Akintola-Times/dp/0714632198

The book about the educational ideas of past Nigerian leaders:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Main_currents_in_Nigerian_education_thou.html?id=O7slAQAAIAAJ
http://www.amazon.com/Main-currents-Nigerian-educational-thought/dp/978326608X
http://www.bookdepository.com/Main-Currents-Nigerian-Education-Thought-Owan-Enoh/9789783266087
http://www.abebooks.com/9789783266087/Main-Currents-Nigerian-Educational-Thought-978326608X/plp

The book with selected speeches and writings from Ahmadu Bello:

http://www.amazon.com/Alhaji-Ahmadu-Bello-Sardauna-Sokoto/dp/9783463721
http://books.google.com/books/about/Alhaji_Sir_Ahmadu_Bello_Sardauna_of_Soko.html?id=nX10AAAAMAAJ
http://www.worldcat.org/title/alhaji-sir-ahmadu-bello-sardauna-of-sokoto-his-thoughts-and-vision-in-his-own-words-selected-speeches-and-letters-of-the-great-leader/oclc/044137937
http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Alhaji_Sir_Ahmadu_Bello,_Sardauna_of_Sokoto-His_Thoughts_and_Vision_in_His_Own/9783463721/

The book on education in Northern Nigeria from 1906-1966:

http://www.amazon.com/Education-Cultural-Northern-Nigeria-1906-1966/dp/9970023748
http://books.google.com/books/about/Education_and_cultural_change_in_Norther.html?id=EJ8lAQAAIAAJ




None of these books are actually available to be previewed or read online and two of them (the book on educational ideas and the book with speeches and writings from Bello) are out of print, although they might be at some library somewhere. I'm pretty sure one would have to find a library that has these books or buy them online (and the ones that can be bought are expensive), so I don't plan to track down these books myself, I just mentioned them as sources somebody else (Katsumoto, or others) may be able to track down or buy if they wanted clarification on the perspectives of certain leaders with regard to education.

Katsumoto, I read the Osuntokun biography, and I saw a clash of egos, of different groups (the Ibadan/Oyo Yorubas vs. others), and a clash between one leader who wanted to take a group into the mainstream, and another who was fine with staying in the opposition. I think the book was fairly objective, but maybe I missed something. Also, I really didn't see anything in there that suggested a preference for elitist feudalism.

As for articles like Aluko's, others could cite articles like this: http://www.dawodu.com/agbe1.htm, which although definitely containing several errors (such as the alleged (but not proven) tribally motivated carpet crossing in the 1951 western region elections, and the false accusation that Awolowo wanted to be prime minister at all costs), makes a few interesting observations about what Akintola's real motivation may have been (dissatisfaction with Awolowo's opposition politics for the Yorubas) to try and "dethrone" Awolowo. I'm just not convinced by the "feudalism" argument insinuated by Aluko. And it was actually the NNDP that took a hard line in competing with the NCNC and Igbos in general on some educational matters that could have affected Yorubas directly (as you can see from that article), so I'm not sure about this argument that the leader of the NNDP didn't care about education for the larger society while his own son was schooling in Britain.

As for Balewa and Bello, I'll get back to you on that. There's this massive and detailed biography of Bello in a library that I'd have to skim through to see what his actual efforts were in detail if it mentions them. I haven't read it and don't have time to, but I wouldn't be surprised to find something there about educating Northerners. The books I came across online discussing his ideas on education (Main currents in Nigerian education thought: Nnamdi Azikiwe, Obafemi Awolowo, Ahmadu Bello, Tai Solarin, Onyerisara Ukeje, Aliu Fafunwa, Jibril Aminu and the book Alhaji Sir Ahmadu Bello, Sardauna of Sokoto: his thoughts and vision in his own words, selected speeches and letters of the great leader (this book apparently contains a section by Bello called "On University Education and the Role of the University in Society" )aren't accessible online and I can't find them at any library close to me. So if I look at that biography later, I might have a specific answer on what exactly he did for Northerners with regard to education.

With respect to the gap between the North and the South, there is a book called Education and cultural change in Northern Nigeria, 1906-1966:
a study in the creation of a dependent culture by P. K. Tibenderana

I haven't actually read it, but the google summary of the book claims: "Education and Cultural Change in Northern Nigeria 1906-1966, examines the effects of British educational policies on traditional northern Nigerian society. Fearing that a proper education would lead to active discontent in the colony, the British devised a limited form of schooling which was designed to produce just enough trained people to serve the colonial bureaucracy without stirring up dangerous Islamic ambitions. 'Western education on native lines' was the brainchild of successive governors and officials at the colonial office who apparently considered independence as a remote possibility, only achievable in the very distant future. Their short-sighted attitudes seriously hindered the economic development of the region, with consequences that are still recognisable today. In each chapter, Professor Tibenderana gives the background to the changing educational structures together with details of the different levels of education provided." 

This is the same impression I got from a few other things I've read which touch on this subject obliquely.

Also, some of the missionaries in the south in the colonial period before the AG and the NCNC started governing the Western and Eastern regions would have given yet another educational advantage to the south.

Not to let Northern leaders completely off the hook, but I have a completely different view of why there is the north-south gap and I don't think it's appropriate to say that it was only due to oversight on the part of Bello and Balewa. Maybe you know something I don't here and you can enlighten me.


[Just for anyone else reading, I obviously am not taking sides with any of these individuals from Nigeria's history, I just want to know more about the period and the individuals in that period and read perspectives I haven't come across before.]

I'm not sure that the word Ase/Ise would originate from any one modern ethnic group. These groups (Yoruba, Edo, Igbo) are supposedly part of the same larger language family.

I actually support the push to identify Ika as Igbo and convince them of it, so that all this confusion can stop. But in the course of doing so, its not necessary to make some of these kinds of claims in some of the above posts. I don't think they'll really convince people.

To Nedu, the Binis are one of multiple Edoid groups in that same general area. To say the western Igbos "hosted the Edos" doesn't make sense when the entire area shows a steady stream of Edoid migration from somewhere north of Edo state extending into Itsekiri land, where some Edoid group clearly mixed with a larger group of Yorubas. If anything, the Ikas would have been pushed out by proto-Urhobos, on the way to where they are now, before the Benin kingdom existed. But the Bini and Urhobo groups separated a very long time ago (see Ben Elugbe's work for an estimation of the time, based on linguistic differences and a Northern Edoid/Southern Edoid dichotomy; he estimates 2000-3000 years).

The earthworks in the Bini and Esan areas, dating from an early time, make this theory dead on arrival, anyway. The same kind of structures were built in 700 AD (8th century) as were built up to the mid to late 1400s AD (15th century), yet these exact kind of earthworks were not found in any Igbo areas (and one can read Patrick Darling's detailed publications on earthworks in Benin and Esan areas for more detail). And it seems the kinds of Edo titles and cultural elements adopted by some of the Ikas or other Delta Igbos could not be from the 8th century AD or from some even earlier time when all the Edoid people were migrating southwards. For example, there almost certainly could not have been an "Iyase" in the 8th century.



@ Abagworo, here is a take on the "Benin origin" story among Ijaws from an Ijaw historian:


"It would appear from an analysis of the oral traditions of Ijo Ibe throughout the Niger delta that the Ijo can no longer remember any place outside the delta from which they came. The traditions are convincing only about movements within the delta from a number of centres of dispersion. In the eastern delta, the most important centres seem to have been Ke and Obiama; in the central delta, Ikibiri and Oporoma; and, in the western delta, Ogobiri and Oproza. But even these places which served as places of origin for so many other groups feel a need to name places of origin. Only the people of Ke claim to be autochthonous, that their founders dropped from the sky. Obiama is extinct, and many groups who claim it as their place of origin decline to say whence Obiama itself came, but some name Benin, and others simply state that the ancient Obiama were 'Ijo'. The people of Oporoma claimed autochthony when their traditions were first recorded in 1931, but in 1938 stated emphatically that their ancestors had come from Benin. The Seimbiri of Ikibiri name Egypt ('Egipiti') as their ancestor's home prior to settlement at Benin. Benin origin is the classical example of a cliche in Ijo traditions. In the central delta, seven out of ten Ibe gave Benin as their place of origin. In the western delta, closer to the Benin kingdom, only five out of fourteen Ibe gave Benin as the place of origin. Most eastern delta kingdoms also claim Benin as a place of origin. The geographical isolation of the delta has predisposed people to accept theories of movements into it from outlying regions. The idea is that people fled the Benin kingdom for various reasons and sought refuge in the inaccessible delta.

Benin is also used as a place of origin in the oral traditions of other peoples in the northern fringes of the delta as far up the Niger as Onitsha, and in all the country between Onitsha and Benin. The conclusion must be that the great prestige of the Benin kingdom has attracted at least some of these uses of its name. There are, however, two cases of relationship with the Benin kingdom which bear scrutiny. Tradition at Nembe remembers a man, Ogidiga, leading a band of refugees from the Itsekiri kingdom of Warri (itself traditionally an offshoot of Benin). Ogidiga is now the name of the Nembe national god, and the sword believed to have been used by the man Ogidiga is preserved in the shrine and known as Ada. The word Ogidiga means 'leader' or 'great man' in both Itsekiri and Edo (Benin). And the name Ada had been given at Benin to one of two 'swords of authority' introduced to Benin by Ere, the second of the Ogiso rulers of the Benin kingdom. These facts give substance to the idea that refugees from justice or oppression fled into the delta from Benin and its environs, but do not constitute evidence of large or frequent migrations. The migration to Nembe may be a special, rather than a typical, case.

Among the three branches of the Mein in the western delta, the issue of leadership among the elders, Okusowe, was decided by trips to Benin to obtain bronze artifacts as legitimizing insignia of authority. The Pere of the Akugbene, Ngbelebiri, and Ogholubiri Mein are each reputed to own quantities of bronze objects of Benin type. It would seem then that Benin also served surrounding peoples as a place for deciding political problems that could not be resolved locally. The Mein account suggests that tribute in the form of slaves was paid to Benin for the bronzes. Since bronzes have been found or reported in various parts of the delta, the study of these bronzes may indicate the nature and extent of Benin cultural contact with the delta. The Mein bronzes are connected with Benin by tradition, and Horton sees some stylistic affinity also in some of the pieces. He believes the other examples in Mein and other areas belong to different styles. There are, however, no recorded traditions of either local manufacture or of importation, their origin being invariably ascribed to the water spirits. The investigation of these metal artifacts as well as of the centres of dispersal indicated by the traditions require the attention of archaeologists.

In sum then, Ijo traditions in the eastern delta refer to Benin as a place of origin outside the delta, and generally suggest movement from the west and central delta eastwards. There are, however, also traditions of migration from the east to the centre and from the central delta to the west. These migrations within the delta are better authenticated. A view first expressed by Dike and popularized by Davidson postulates a massive migration from the Ibo hinterland to populate an empty or near empty delta in the wake of the overseas slave-trade. Such a conclusion is unsupported by Ijo oral traditions, and even by the admittedly scanty early European records. Its basis is the belief that conditions in the delta were too unattractive for any number of people to have settled without the attraction of the profits of the overseas trade, first in slaves, and later in oil-palm produce. The evidence of the traditions is that trickles of migrants from the hinterland and the delta met on the fringes of the delta to form buffer communities. In any case, current tentative linguistic classifications of the languages of these communities distinguish them from both Ijo and Ibo. The eastern dialects of Mini, Ogbia, Udekama, Abuloma and Abua are classed in the Abua group of the Kwa subfamily of Niger-Congo languages. The more westerly dialects of Epie-Atissa and Engeni would seem to belong to the Edo Group of Kwa and Niger-Congo. The thesis of an empty delta is flatly contradicted by the account of Duarte Pacheco Pereira, believed to embody information of the Nigerian coast available to the Portuguese in the first decade of the sixteenth century. He knew people on the estuary of the Forcados River whom he named 'Huela' (probably the Ogula Ijo), and others on the rivers Ramos and Rio Real (the combined estuary of the Bonny and New Calabar) whom he called 'Jos' (clearly meaning Ijo). Pereira did not report a sparse population either. For the Ramos area, he stated: 'all this country is densely populated'. He observed no trade in the western delta, but there were already two centres of local and external trade on the Rio Real."


Oral Tradition among the Ijo of the Niger Delta
Author(s): Ebiegberi Joe Alagoa
Reviewed work(s):
Source: The Journal of African History, Vol. 7, No. 3 (1966), pp. 405-419
Published by: Cambridge University Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/180110 .

Katsumoto: He liked the idea of feudalism that was practiced in the North which was why it was so easy to align with Bello and Balewa.

Are you sure about this? I read an objective biography of him and I didn't get that impression. Could you back this statement up?

For all the power that Bello and Balewa had, what did they do for their people? They didn't believe in education for their people because more educated people would have led to more resistance against feudalism.

I'm not sure that this is accurate either. Can you support this statement with any facts?

Yoruba: "Ase"

Edo: "Ise"

Igbo: "Ise"

hmm. . .

Anybody know the Igala word for "let it be"/"amen"?

jackpot:
Just like Isee!, Gbam! is of 100% Igbo origin used to concur and buttress a point. But it's now loaned out.

Pls, let's not loan out our Isee! before Yoruba people like Tpia and Ileke will drag words we inherited from our fore-father's with us

What does "Isee" mean in Igbo?

Interesting thread.

Heh. I regret my earlier comments in this thread (under the moniker PhysicsMHD). They may have given the impression that I believed that the ancient Egyptians were not originally a black African people, which is not the case. They were black originally or at least the earliest groups were, but they were one of those Sudanic/North African/East African black groups that often have so-called "Caucasian" features that arise naturally from the genetic diversity of that area.

I should point out that Egypt had a fundamentally unique and different culture and history from West African cultures, and claiming them as being of the same "race" (race is a social construct, more or less invented (or most greatly promoted) by Europeans, not a real biological concept) does not have any effect on the "glory" or "greatness" of one's own West African ancestors. Claiming them as being technically "black" (although often with so-called "Caucasian" features) is more of a semi-counter to western propaganda than a statement with any direct relevance to West Africans' own history. The same Egyptians that everyone is so interested in would have looked down on West Africans had they ever encountered them, just like they looked down on the Nubians and most of their other neighbors.

@ Resw77, Cleopatra was of Greek descent. She was white. The reason for the promotion of Cleopatra probably has more to do with her turbulent and tumultuous political history than her whiteness. She was an inherently interesting character about which there is a lot of surviving information.

Mrs.  Abbey Mary who was alleged to have used part of the beef to prepare food she was to sell.

Some of the suspects who gave their names as Bashiru Adigin and Peter Oguche denied involvement in the act but could not explained how they came about having large chunk of beef in their homes.

Beaf: Those Edo people were just looking for any excuse to strike at malams. Its unfortunate and condemnable, exagerated number of cows or not.

lol, none of the suspects that have actually been named in the 10 cow killing or 4,000,000,000 cow killing and eating are Bini or even have names typical of Edo state, yet the chairman of the cattle dealers association is appealing to the Oba of Benin. Ironic. I don't know any Edo groups with individuals with last names like Mary, Adigin, or Oguche


@ Beaf, is it really necessary to politicize everything? This was clearly just a criminal element taking advantage of the cover of the protest.

[For the record, I believe the removal of the subsidy could help Nigeria move forward developmentally, if the benefits are taken advantage of properly by the government. But people should be able to protest against what they oppose without all sorts of vile/vulgar aspersions being cast on them.]

Negro_Ntns:
Physics, your bias has eaten so far into you that it became hard to shield your detest for Yoruba glorious history.

1. Bias? What part of my post was biased?

2. My post did not display any "detest" for Yoruba history.

I wanted to attack an insinuation about the Portuguese and Benin (the "base" stuff) and the supposed relevance of this to what was being discussed earlier about a "vibrant and powerful empire".

The Binis have failed to subordinate Yoruba to their own civilization

And when did the Binis "attempt to subordinate Yoruba to their own civilization"?


"In the evening we had a visit from the king, to thank me for the
presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcome;
said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would
speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had
sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the
war. He added that the customary fetes or amusements would
begin in about two months, and he would be very glad if I would
stay and see them ; that he dressed now as a common man, but
after that, I should see him robed as a king. I told him I must go
on early, to get to Bornou before the rains. Mr. Houtson took this
opportunity of observing to him that he had been at the customs
in Dahomey, and inquired if the king of Yourriba put to death such
a number of people at his customs as at those of Dahomey. He
shook his head, shrugged up his shoulders, and exclaimed 'No, no
no king of Yourriba could sacrifice human beings; and that if he
so commanded, the king of Dahomey must also desist from that
practice; that he must obey him.' " - Hugh Clapperton, 1826, published in Journal of a second expedition into the interior of Africa, from the bight of Benin to Soccatoo (1829)

"It has expressly and repeatedly told us, that the monarch of this empire is brother to the king of Benin; but, notwithstanding this near relationship of the two sovereigns, not the slightest intercourse or communication is maintained between Yarriba and that power; so that at least the inhabitants of this place have informed us; and the reason they ascribe for it is, that the distance between the countries is too great. Friends and acquaintances are oftentimes called brothers in Yarriba; and to make a discinction in the above instance, they assert that Mansolah and the king of Benin 'were of one father and one mother'. We interrogated Ebo on the subject, but he soon silenced our remarks by observing that we were too inquisitive, or, to use his own words, 'that we talked too much.' " - Journal of an Expedition to Explore the Course and Termination of the Niger, (1832) by Richard and John Lander


If the two monarchs were friends and/or "brothers", and the Binis acknowledged the authority of the Oba of Benin, it immediately follows that such a thing could never have happened, historically. When you find evidence of this supposed Bini attempt to "subordinate Yoruba to their own civilization", let me know.

and now what you could not obtain through a re-write

I want to divert the topic a little to make a point here about re-writes by bringing up a relevant example.

There is no evidence anywhere in the historical record that the Binis ever acknowledged that there was an "Ooni" at Ife prior to colonialism. The idea that they acknowledged such a thing was literally invented in the third edition and fourth edition of Jacob Egharevba's book, A Short History of Benin, due to the influence of Percy A. Talbot's (who was a European) work (although even Talbot admitted that the ruler was actually called the "Awgenni" (as he wrote it) by the Edo).

That was something I took from Oba Erediauwa's story, where - in accordance with actual tradition - it was mentioned at the end of the story that the ruler at Uhe took the title of Oghene (which basically means great lord). If the Oba of Benin pointed out that the ruler was the Oghene, that was not a "re-write". It was a correction of a mistake and distortion made by earlier writers.

As early as 1505, in Duarte Pachecho Pereira's Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis (circa 1505-1508 ), we read that the Binis and those chiefs in the "pagan" territories of the Benin kingdom say that there is a great lord "who has the name Hooguanee" (Oghene), a certain ruler in the wider region that the author (Pereira) claims is regarded in the region "as the Pope is among us" (i.e. an extremely important religious/spiritual figure). We know that the word "Hoo[b]gua[/b]nee" here is "O[b]gh[/b]ene" because the same author spells U[b]gh[/b]oton as "Hu[b]gua[/b]too." Not surprisingly every scholar that has read this passage or cited it has identified that name (Hooguanee) with Oghene.

We also learn from another written account from around the same general time (from Joao de Barros) of the author's description of a short interview with a Bini ambassador to the Portuguese that this important ruler is the "Ogane" (Oghene).

Presumably this ruler was at Uhe/Ufe/Ife.

As late as the 1920s, Oba Eweka II gave H.L. Ward-Price the impression that there was an Oghene that was one of the kings that he was praying for at that (supposedly "pagan" ) cross. Not the 'Ooni", because "Ooni" was not actually mentioned by Oba Eweka II.

What follows should be obvious, but I'll break it down.


a) Why did the Binis believe for more than 400 years, and obviously even earlier than the early 1500s, that there was an Oghene, not an Ooni? I find it extraordinary that people are actually claiming that over hundreds of years, there was nothing learned about the supposed name of that other monarch that was so important.

b) Why did Oba Eweka II not "correct" Egharevba's "omission" of the word Ooni from his history book?

c) Why did Oba Eweka II, in a prayer, pray for the Oghene and other related kings (such as the Alaafin (who Ward-Price also was informed by Oba Eweka II himself that he prayed for) and himself (the Oba of Benin)) ?


The truth certainly seems to be that from every available historical source, Benin actually always held that there was another ruler with an Edo title (Oghene) that was important to their kingdom, just like they always held that another kingdom that they had important connections with was called Ogho (not Owo).  I mention this last thing because, if there was not such strong evidence for the earlier, uncorrupted name being Ogho (meaning respect) actually coming from Owo itself, and not just from Benin, people would equally accuse Binis of  also "rewriting" history anytime that they were to claim that the name was Ogho.

In fact, only recently, an Ogho (Owo) author, Chief Fama Aina Adewale Somadhi, produced an Ogho Dictionary. Yet if a Bini had said the name was originally Ogho only on the basis of their own traditional history  (Benin tradition), and that the name was corrupted to Owo in earlier times, they would probably have been accused of bias or fabrication without any real analysis of the claims.

Yet Chief Ashara (the historian of Owo/Ogho) specifically claimed that the name was corrupted and came to be called Owo "because Yoruba cannot pronounce gh" (one can check the article "New Treasures from Nigeria", Expedition, Volume 14, 1972, p.3 by Ekpo O. Eyo for the quote). It is perhaps not at all a coincidence that the few areas where Yorubas use "gh" (called the "voiced velar fricative" by linguists) have definite Edo influence, such as Owo/Ogho and Ilaje, or that the use of the "gh" sound is legion in Edo.

This issue of rewriting of history is not really as simple as you think it is.

I view the Oba of Benin's foray into destroying the Talbot & Egharevba alteration/rewrite as a bold but necessary step towards constructing a more accurate account of the history of the region. That is all. I am not making any claims about "primacy", "subordination", or anything similar or reading that from the story. I have not read anything from the Oba of Benin, or any modern Binis that is really trying to historically "subordinate the Yoruba civilization" to Benin, so I have difficulty viewing this comment as anything other than a misdirected comment.

you want to destroy by claiming it as the outcrop of growth or decline from greater civilizations hinterland,

On the contrary, since I am well aware that there is solid, well established archaeological evidence of civilization (Yoruba civilization) at Oyo many centuries before the events I alluded to involving Borgu, I could not possibly be making the claim you accuse me of making.

I simply did not claim that a "greater civilization" in the hinterland was the source of Oyo or anything else.

You meander around thruths to support your cause and your carefully craft your wording to elevate and give your claims an air of credibility.

Truths such as?

Yoruba did not evolve out of Nupe or Borgu or anyone else on this continent.

And did I claim that they did?

My point was really about the role of Borgu and surrounding northern neighbors vs. the role of the indigenous society. If you don't know of the historical alliance of Borgu and Oyo or the influence of Nupe, then that's something which you need to hit the books and discover or rediscover. I made no statements about "Yoruba evolving out of Nupe or Borgu" and I think you're essentially distorting my statement - I stated that the group itself (the Oyos) and its culture and society should really be credited for the ascendance of Oyo to a powerful position, whatever the relevance and importance of its neighbors might have been.

We are a race of people with diverse culture and nativity but cojoined in a political commonwealth and sharing by virtue of our tongue and cosmological awakening a common root traced to AfroAsia.

Now whether the Binis want to be part of that commonwealth or not is their headache but you will not, out of contempt, succeed in diminishing our political status or ancient history.  I know what the title to this topic say and I know what history say of Bini being one of the 7 Yoruba states.  Yoruba history and grace cannot be silenced.  It was not silenced by slavery, treacherous as that was, but instead it rose from the ashes like the mythical Pheonix and found its own footing in the new world.  As Ile Ife became the new world of our migrated fathers and South America has become the new world of our stolen ancestors. . . so a new world is being created with our arts and artifacts around the globe.

I think you are discussing issues that are not really directly connected with what I wrote originally.

Yoruba gave life to Nupe, Yoruba gave life to Borgu. . . . but you dont understand these things.  You believe faithfully in the written words of Europeans who received their narrations and verisions from oral accounts taught to them by unlettered natives, the same teachers you dismiss as uncredible because they are not Eurocentric like you and your favorite authors. 

Stop trying to interprete Afrocentric emotions with Eurocentric logic.

A Eurocentrist? No. That's why I argued against the obvious insinuation about the "Portuguese establishment of a base in Benin" and its supposed relevance to StarFlux's and Ileke-Idi's mention of the historical "vibrant and powerful" status of the empire.

If the connotation of what Tpia stated was too subtle, re-read the conversation preceding tpia's comment, then read her comment, and see what is really being insinuated there. If you don't even understand what I was responding to, or why I used the examples and made the comparisons I did, then there's no point discussing this any further. I am really not going to spell it out, and you should be able to understand it from the context.

mbatuku2:
I also read recently that the Igbo four market-day calendar system(afo, eke, orie and nkwo) was also adopted by the Edos. How extensive is it's use?

Perhaps it was. It was used in Benin in pre-colonial times, although an eight day system was also adopted or developed. Then of course, the current European 7 day system we all use today became prominent.

@ StarFlux, the Benin kingdom in its entirety was not densely populated compared to some other places. This was specifically noted by Olfert Dapper's description of Benin that he published in 1668.

In the capital city itself, there were also a significant number of slaves, and occasionally immigrants, from some nearby groups.


But there really is no reason why the prominence of a place should correlate directly with the size of the ethnic group.
It simply doesn't follow that being a large ethnic group necessarily results in a prominent kingdom springing up from that group or vice versa.


@ Tpia@, care to mention the base the Portuguese established in Benin? I'm pretty sure they were based in São Tomé.

The Portuguese also visited the Ijebu kingdom in the 1500s. Did they establish a "base" there too?

The Portuguese visited several parts of the coast of West Africa and Benin was definitely not the first place they visited.

Whatever we might want to think, Benin is still fundamentally located inland, not at the coast, and its outlets such as Ughoton and Gelegele are still not at the coast, so I do not think one should insinuate that the Portuguese be given such disproportionate credit (all of the white or non-African scholars that studied Benin's history in depth completely failed to do this, but somehow I'm not surprised when other Africans, or fellow Nigerians try to do this  ) for Benin's prominence when the Portuguese visited so many places in west and central Africa yet failed to do so much in the rest of Africa that they allegedly did for Benin.

Benin was not the only place described as great or mighty by Europeans when they got there, anyway. Olfert Dapper (his sources, that is) said in 1668 that "Ulkami" (obviously "Olukumi" a term used by some Yoruba speakers and applied to Yoruba speakers by some), a kingdom described as being next to Allada (called "Arder" in the text, but clearly referring to Allada, Dahomey) was a "mighty place" and the scholars that have read that passage have all identified this with Oyo. This means that off of its reputation with other groups, Oyo was being promoted to Europeans by those groups less far into the interior.

The obstacle as far as European promotion of Oyo was just that Oyo was further in the interior. However Oyo's real connection was in the north, not with Europeans. Samuel Johnson even went so far as to claim: "It should be remembered that the coast tribes were of much less importance then than now, both in population and in intelligence ; light and civilization with the Yorubas came from the north with which they have always retained connection through the Arabs and Fulanis."  (The History of the Yorubas, Chapter IV)

One could claim that Borgu, Nupe, etc. elevated the Oyo kingdom to an empire and to a level of military conquest it would not have had otherwise and one can try to write off Oyo's independent rise to power as wholly northern inspired, but nobody has any real issue with Nupe and Borgu for what they did for Oyo like you seem to have with the Portuguese and what they supposedly did for Benin. (And I am aware that Nupe once sacked Oyo (and the Alaafin and his court took refuge in Borgu), but that doesn't change the reality that the Oyo cavalry was Northern inspired.) Nevertheless, attributing credit solely to Oyo's neighbors for its historical might would not really be justified. Anybody who reads up on Oyo, would understand how important the indigenous culture and society was to the rise of the kingdom.

As for the Portuguese, two Portuguese ships visited and traded with the Ijebu kingdom in 1553 and some Portuguese even lived in Ijebu Ode at one point. Yet I have never read anywhere where it was claimed that the Portuguese established a "base" in the Ijebu kingdom and there is really nothing to suggest that they did.

I don't really see why Benin should have had any greater rapport with the Portuguese than the Portuguese had with anybody else, or why numerous other "Benins" did not arise in the area stretching from Badagry to the Mahin area or other places on the coast or inland from the coast at any point in time following Portuguese contact if the Portuguese were the catalyst for rises to power in and around the Benin area.

By the way, you said earlier in another thread that Yorubas contributed greatly to the Benin empire and I partially agree with that but what I have to point out is that merely having Yorubas or Portuguese among them can't explain the level of Benin's development. As mentioned earlier, there is nothing like a Benin in the area stretching from Badagry to the Mahin area.

So while I partially agree with your earlier statement, and I acknowledge that Binis, like many other groups, can't be of perfectly homogeneous ancestry (even some very common and basic Edo words (like mouth, mother, etc.) for which there is no other word are identical to or similar to  Yoruba, Igbo, or other groups' words), I have to point out that without the autochthonous culture's political system, defenses, and the unique culture in place, there is no reason it should have had anything more going for it than the other Nigerian kingdoms, and no definite reason it should have been greater than any of the settlements across the coasts or inland from the coasts. One can read R.E. Bradbury's analysis of the unique aspects of the culture in some of his articles in Benin Studies to get a better perspective.

If not for the actual Binis, there is really no reason why Benin would be mentioned with any more interest or admiration than any of the more minor and less prominent kingdoms that existed in Nigeria and the Guinea coast.

Nri Priest, there is no Benin word like "Iyaselle" to the best of my knowledge.

I already showed what Iyasere means, though ("that which I desire").

@ N_ovbiedo and StarFlux.

Thanks for your comments on the thread.

N_ovbiedo, there don't seem to be many surviving images of buildings from pre-colonial Benin. I've actually already posted most of the images of buildings that are easily accessible. The ones I haven't posted are two images of parts of ruined buildings from after the 1897 invasion and the fire. There are probably a few other relevant images hidden away somewhere, though.

I should mention that a researcher named Zbigniew R. Dmochowski published an obscure three volume set of books called An Introduction to Nigerian Traditional Architecture with images and drawings of buildings from all over Nigeria, including Benin. Volume two discusses Benin and some other places in southwestern and central Nigeria. Unfortunately I have not been able to obtain or access a copy of the book yet, so I'm uncertain as to how much new or interesting information volume 2 contains.

Ezeagu, which of the "Edoid" languages were you referring to when you said okpoho was Edo for woman? Okhuo is woman/female in Edo (Bini).

@ Nri priest

Iyasere is pure Edo (Bini). No ifs ands or buts about it. It follows easily and directly from the language. What Igbo interpretation of the word did you arrive at for the "Iyassele" version of the word?


(In case you need a reference you can check: http://edoworld.net/Edo_Africa_names_dictionary_I.html, but you could possibly also track down a Bini dictionary offline at a library somewhere if you need further confirmation.)