₦airaland Forum

hercules07:
You guys are just a disgrace to both religions, at a time when people of the two faiths are meant to come together, you guys are going at each other's throat. Lagosshia, you are above this, you do not need to reply to all of these.

This can't be possible, Except Muslims realise these verses.

Matthew 12:30)"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me

Mark 9:40 for whoever is not against us is for us.

Above this? the only one that throw insult is above what? u must start taking good note then.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA link=topic=794684.msg9900800#msg9900800 date=1325772564]yes you are right. not just a doctor, i need to go to the international medical association and W.H.O to alert them about this dangerous epidemic disease called[i] christianity [/i] and[i] islam[/i].[/quote]

LagosShia:
when you take each and every hadith as absoulte truth,that is what you end up with.

you dont even have to ask me,because i dont look twice at "sahih bukhari".i am shia and not sunni.

besides,the Prophet (sa) feeling the effect and dying as a result are different things.with the many details already given,i dont know what you're looking for.may be the wrath of God!

even if we are to assume that he died from poisoning after 3 years and after under the alleged influence of poison he still made many desert journey on the back of animals over long distances,both Jesus and John the Baptist to your acknowledgement and belief were killed.so were they false?"New Testament (bible) Fairytale Or Horror Story"?!
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-830551.0.html

U are a true radical Muslim, the hadith u are hiding id the one after the Quran if i am not mistaking, u are rejecting it because, it tells the truth about Muhammeds and Islam laws. U denied it, but ur Co-muslim claim its the good one. So tell me, are they many dodies in Islam? which one is higher than the other then?

Feeling the effect is same as diying as a result is same thing. The poison distroyed his body system, even though he suvivied it several yrs with medication. Poisonous pains, are periodic, not all poison persist. many people today are living with poison in their body, of course they do normal things like everyone, but they may not ve hope of living longer.

Jesus death was predicted, the Jews did not pretendingly planed his death, they openly did, and Jesus could ve rebuked them if he wishes, because there was no concret allegations, but everything has to go accordlly.

John The Baptist death was as a result of oat, It was a must for Aarod to fulfill his promise. Both Christ and John were did not suffer poisonous pains before thier death. And they were both killed by men with physical strenght.
This has nothing to do with Muhammed dieing in a woman's lap (Aisha) and poison by a woman.

Didn't i poste the link of the author of this article? i never claim i wrote the article.

@ivoice247, there is nothing Muslims scholars dont refute, the truth still stands.

Ofcourse muslim scholars will always refute falsehood. What truth still stands? Or you mean , Your assumption still stands

Even the errors of the kuran were all refuted by Islam scholars

Okay, here we go again. Post the so called errors in the quran and i'll give you a reply inshallah.

The truth that the scripture cannot be denied, That Christ is the only way to salvation. Error in the Kuran will be treated alsewhere if u want, we ve to mentain this thread.

Posted by: ivoice247: Yes, this is an authentic hadith and correct. BUT I DON"T UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT HERE? This magic the hadith is referring to is different from the poisoning of the jewish woman and this magic did not kill him. If you read other narrations of this hadith you'll come to understand that the two men were angels who came in human form to inform him that magic was worked on him.

But we've said it times without number that muhammed(saw) was a human being just like all the other prophets and he used to fall sick, get hungry, cry, feel pain etc etc. The jews and the unbelievers tried to kill him just as they tried to kill other prophets in the bible and succeeded. They also crucified prophet jesus(as) according to your bible (but muslims don't believe jesus(as) was crucified). But the fact that they were killed, still doesn't debunk the fact that they were prophets. As the quran has explained in the following verses below

My point is that, as LagosShia has denied the hadith that speaks about the poison as in result of the prophets death. I now shipped in this other incident in the hadith, sugesting maybe the course of Muhammeds death. But LagosShia denied it still. But u are here saying the opposite. So Muslims have many bodies?

As for the Muslims denying Christ crusifision contradicts the bible and History. No one can tell u he knows ur father better than u do. Even pagan historians, recorded Christ crusifision, so the fact that Muslim do not believe makes Islam the true false Doctrine Jesus spoke about.

AbuHanifa:
Lol @as for that girl,i'm done with her.anytime she misbehaves,i will treat her as she deserves.

Jazakallahu khair lagoshia

It sounds funny really, He only done with me as a result of pretends to accept defeat. He can't do that openly as i know him to be.

LagosShia:
and hardly anything we muslims practice that is not also either found or supported implicitly or explicitly by your bible and the many prophets mentioned in it.

is it polygamy you are talking about?it is there in your bible in the worst of forms.prophets/men of God are mentioned to have taken tens and hundreds of wives with no condemnation from God.someone has already cited that polygamy was practiced even in the christianity and it it a recent phenomenon that christians stopped practicing it.to the admission of christian leaders/clergy,polygamy is not anti-scripture.


as for the verse in question about Jesus promising you wives in paradise,there is nothing you can say that convincingly prove to us that Jesus will not reward you with wives.and there is nothing we can say that will convince you.the verse is open to interpretation and we are definitely not wrong to say that the verse speaks of wives as reward especially after Jesus promised bread and wine in paradise making it a physical place and not the spiritual fantasy christians are brainwashed to imagine and hallucinate of.
i beg your pardon! Jesus is not the source of christianity.Paul was.if you accuse Jesus falsely that he is the source,then show us where Jesus called himself the source of christianity.you will never in this world succeed in doing that even if all the protestant churches and catholics join hands on that task.that should be a source of shame for you christians.you claim a founder that never recognized you.where did Jesus call you "christians"?who made you "christians"? Jesus or the devil?Jesus or Paul?

Jesus may have not promoted polygamy and even in the Quran we are told to marry one.but it is not a sin or an "evil" act to marry more than one.at least the bible serves as evidence to my words and my claim on that.simple.

U are missing in action then, others like, [b]Mormon, Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, Kim Clement, Mark Charonna, Juanita Bynum, Brigham Young, Benny Hinn, including Muhammed, [/b]All these people ve found been qualified by the bible according to them. They ve all come and go, there is one thing that stands still, it that, the word of the diving scripture will remain unchanged. U cannot use it to suit your religion. Use your book.

I never told u Polygamyis a sin,  u must read my post over again sir.

@ op, What is the issue with her age? Today i spoke with a vigin, she is in her late 20ths, do u think all people lose thier veginity wholefully? Mary was a Vegin before she had Christ. We were told in the bible that she had other children, but outside that, nothing more about her sexual life was disclossed.

LagosShia:
^^^^^^^

you are so closed minded.

so wasn't the earth and the universe created by God? who permitted the building of idolatry? to us Muslims,the entire entire is referred to as a "masjid" the word commonly translated as "mosque".masjid means a place for prostration to God Almighty.

if the entire earth is[b] our mosque then anywhere a pagan place of worship is built be it a pagan shrine or a trinitarian pagan church or a man-made religion place of worship,those places all belong to God because they are on earth.it is the natural course and divine will for all the earth to be a place of worship to God which is a masjid.so do not be in shock if muslims convert these evil places by cleansing them and purifying them into mosques.[/b]afterall whether traditional of men or goats,you christians have done similarly.argue that among yourselves first before lauching an attack on the outside.you are blaming outsider for doing what even your own brothers have done.another case of seeing the sawdust in another's eye while forgetting the plank in yours.hypocrisy!!!

Muslims have no purity in them nor in their Mosque/Kabaar . Islam is satanic, how can Muhammed purify something to make it Godly? Is it about saying it, what has proved the presence of God in the Kaaba like in the bible when God s glory came down to fill the temple.


Ezekiel 43

The Glory of the Lord Fills the Temple
43 Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing east. 2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the east. And the sound of his coming was like the sound of many waters, and the earth shone with his glory. 3 And the vision I saw was just like the vision that I had seen when he[a] came to destroy the city, and just like the vision that I had seen by the Chebar canal. And I fell on my face. 4 As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, 5 the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple

I can see that u ve answered the topic but not the thread as usual. Ur post shows it.
If to say, u read through the thread u for get some stronge argument to make, but u ignore it and go copy something wen no make any sense and post it.

This ur own history of Mecca and its conclution get k-leg. We go re-examine the thing over again, but brief.

[b]According to the Encyclopedia of Religion, Na the Babylonian dey use the word ALLAH? god Baal, so the Arabs dey aware of him long before Mohamed worshipped him as the supreme God. when Islam never form, the Arabs know many gods and goddesses, we learn say, each tribe get their own deity. Allah na the god of the local Quarish tribe, and na eim be Mohammed's tribe befor he form Islam to lead him people out of their polytheism. At that time, ppl sabi Allah as the Moon God, with 3 daughters dem see them as intercessors for the people into Allah. Their names na Al-at, Al-uzza, and Al-Manat, we don discuss am before shall!. The first two daughters of Allah get names like feminin forms of Allah. "Hubal" na the (oga) chief God of the Kaaba among 360 deities. "Hubal" was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likeness of a man wen dem make him body wit red precious stones e arms na gold dem use make am. (Reference Islam George Braswell Jr.)

“Historians like Vaqqidi Talk say, Allah na "for sure" the chief of the 360 gods saved in Arabia so when Mohammed rose to rule. one Ibn Al-Kalbi gave list of 27 names of pre-Islamic deities, Interestingly, no be all Muslims like to accept say Allah don already being saved at the Ka'ba wen dey Mecca by Arab pagans befor Mohammed come. many Muslims like Lasoshia and bashy and co no like to be confronted with this fact. But sorry, history no do una good at all.

Still on the Kaaba, history don shown say, Mecca and the holy stone al-Kaaba na holy sites for pre-Islamic pagan Arabs. The Kaaba former name na Beit-Allah meaning "House of Allah". Story story tell us say na heaven forst build am. This one contradict wetin God instructed Moses to build, This na wetin Muslims dey overlook when dem dey the Bible.

The Koran tells us that Mohammed drove the other idols away; he made one God now the only god and he was its messenger. He kept the Kaaba as a holy, sacred place and confirmed that the black stone had the power to take away man's sins. He obligated every believer to make a pilgrimage to the stone at least once in his lifetime. (Sura 22:26-37)

So, u can see that Mohammed still used the name Allah which was formerly the name of a specific idol witout ever distinguishing it from the idol the Meccan’s were already worshipping. A modification of their former worship but never a complete break. He never did say for the people to stop their worship of the wrong Allah, for the right one. [/b]

tHE WORSE IS THE CLAIM OF ABRAHAM AS THE BUILDER! and REFUSING TO ACCEPT THE NAME ALLAH WAS CONSERVED BY MUHAMMED.

When the truth is been replaced with lies, there comes fabricated truth, only ignorantS accept such.

Can we imagin things and then claim them as facts. Without concrete proof?

Did Abraham Build the Kaaba?

Jesse Toler

The body of this paper will deal primarily with places and destinations, not theology or personality. I will examine the Biblical accounts of Abraham in the natural and sequential order in which they are preserved in the Bible, while I examine and compare a small sampling of the similarities and differences in the Quran and other Islamic sources. In doing so, I'll point out the several fatal contradictions in the Islamic perspective and leave the reader to determine whether the Islamic version is truth to be believed or fable created to connect a pagan Arabian shrine to the Biblical patriarch of the Israelites. I will cover the ancient evidence and promptly dismember Islamic dogma as inauthentic and based on inadequate grounds. In the end, it will be hard to ignore that the Biblical account is far more reliable and historically accurate and that the Islamic version is mere conjecture imagined in the mind of a suicidal poet of the seventh century.

Nothing is more important to the foundations and development of Islam than the re-casting of Biblical personalities into newly assigned roles as devout Muslims. Shaping Israelite patriarchs into ancient Muslims who worshiped Muhammad’s god is step one. Turning the Lord Christ into a minor image of Muhammad was step two, and worldwide conquest which wars against the soul is now a real possibility [Peter 2:11; Revelation 11:7, 12:7]. While the claims against the Bible are similar to those put forward in Mormonism, and falsified just as easily, both Muslims and non-Muslims need to be reminded that the books of the Bible are the measuring stick to evaluate the historicity and integrity of Muhammad’s often fictional portrayals of these ancient and important people.

Why did the Kaaba play a central role in Muhammad’s fantasies? While no historical facts support his claims, Muslims are seldom deterred. Islam is built upon the notion that Abraham was not only a Muslim [Q. 2:31] but that he was selected by Allah to build the Kaaba in Mecca [Q. 2:125-127], and that while doing so he established the rituals and beliefs which are the cornerstones of Islamic worship. The pagan origins and practices of the Kaaba will not be discussed here, only the patriarchal journeys and the Islamic corruption of the Bible’s texts. Muslims claim that Mecca and the Kaaba are the centers of worship for the entire world. Christians and Jews know that it is Jerusalem, where lays the chief cornerstone of Yahweh's kingdom [Psalm 102:16; I Peter 2:6]. The City of David [Zion] is mentioned nearly 50 times in the Bible as the home of God's people [Isaiah 10:24] and where the hosts will reign [Isaiah 24:23]. Are Muslims going to tell us that these references are corruptions in the texts and that Mecca was the intended city the whole time? Hardly even remotely plausible.

The Kaaba in Mecca is without equal in veneration in Islamic tradition, and had been revered by Arab pagans long before Muhammad’s birth. The Muslim religion holds that the Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ishmael after hearing a direct revelation from Allah. This seems improbable. After all, once Allah guides a people on the right course and provides a mode of conduct for worship through a chosen Prophet, Allah does not then lead them astray into confusion or an inability to see the right course [Q. 9:115]. How is it then that such a man as Abraham would be sent to Mecca to deliver the people from polytheism and build the Kaaba only to later have them fall into apostasy and disbelief, needing yet another prophet in the 7th century A.D.? Abraham being in Mecca is just not consistent with important Islamic doctrines, and a myth. For example, in Q. 2:125 the Kaaba is being purified [Ar. 'tahara'], yet in Q. 2:127 the foundation are still being raised [Ar. Rafa'a]. Depending on the traditions being reviewed, the Kaaba was built by Allah or maybe Adam or possibly Abraham. But, is it true?

Reconstructing ancient events in search for truth is never an easy task, but within the literature handed down from the earliest days, confirmed by corroborating testimony where it is available, certainty looms dreadful for Islamic claims. For example, American scholars such as Albright have discussed the groupings of people and popular migration patterns into and around cultivated areas of the Fertile Crescent, and it is nigh impossible to think that the barren wasteland of the Hijaz would be such a destination for Mesopotamian travelers. Crossing over from Ethiopian lands may be plausible, but Abraham was never in Ethiopia. General migration patters are important to consider if we are going to place the journeys of Abraham into historical context. It is very likely that many people, Abraham's troop included, traveled from Ur to Canaan via the established routes such as the Kings Highway or the International Coastal Road. It is far less likely that these same people then had any reason to travel another 700 miles south into the central Hijaz.

Respected biblical scholars have placed the journeys of the patriarchs in the Middle Bronze Age [2000-1550 B.C.] and this would include the relevant chapters in the Book of Genesis [Chapters 12-50] as well as the narrative accounts in both the Quran and Tradition of the Muslims. In this paper, I will present the narrative from the Book of Genesis, chapters twelve thru twenty-five, as those speak specifically of the travels of Abraham from his calling to his death. Let’s introduce a few of the Islamic fables first, take a close look at the Bible, then we’ll touch upon a few more Islamic myths before closing. That will complete the comparison, and the reader can decide which is believable and which is not.

One Islamic tradition holds that Abraham brought both Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca [Source: Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 584] then returned to Canaan after leaving both Hagar and her infant son in the uninhabited region of Arabia which would later serve as the ground for a building used to quarter the idols of the Kaaba. However,  Sam Shamoun points out in ‘Ishmael is not the Father of Muhammad’ that eminent scholar Alfred Guillaume has written,

‘", there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost. The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources." (Alfred Guillaume, Islam [Penguin Books Inc., Baltimore, 1956], pp. 61-62). 

Another tradition holds that Muhammad himself is said to have told his favorite wife Aisha that, “Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance I would have dismantled the Kaaba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit”. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 128].

So much for the importance of the Kaaba. Yet, we are to believe that the Meccan prophet held the Kaaba in the highest esteem, and believed it had been built and rebuilt after a revelation from Allah.

Let’s examine the Bible and see what we can gather about Abraham, his journeys as agent of Yahweh among the nations and his role as a channel for God’s blessing to the world.

What does the Bible tell us of Abraham, and is it possible that he had spent time in Mecca? Let’s review the Scriptures now. The answers to all these questions lay within a survey of the Book of Genesis. Most of this is common knowledge to Christians, but by way of review, let’s go over the complete list of places Abraham traveled. A good Bible atlas would be useful to the reader. I suggest the Holman Bible Atlas but any Bible Atlas will help to put the following discussion into geographical perspective. The point of this exercise is to elucidate where Abraham did travel, in order to discover where he did not. Obviously, the Muslims will quickly claim that the Christian Scriptures are corrupted, and that we removed the parts which corroborate the worth and validity of the Islamic claims from the germane chapters of the Book of Genesis. The accusation of corruption is silly and unsupported by fact but it’s the only card Muslims have to play, so I don’t blame them for playing it. As I noted, Abraham went outside of Canaan a couple of times. However, the Bible nowhere mentions that Arabia was part of his journeys. Muslims may claim that this has been “removed” from the text, but for what reason? The text of Genesis was fixed many centuries before Islam. Why would it mention several travels outside of Canaan but remove Arabia/Mecca when neither the author (Moses) nor the Jews for many centuries would have the slightest idea about Islam? We have plenty of manuscripts from centuries before Muhammad, none of which place him in Mecca.

Born in Ur, his father Terah began his migration to Canaan [Genesis 11:21]. After Terah’s death, Abraham was called by Yahweh to continue the journey to Canaan [Genesis 12:1] where God promised to Abraham and his descendants the land inhabited by the Canaanites. Let’s note here that we are given the names of the Tribes which would be displaced to establish Abraham in the land. None of them inhabited the Hijaz. The point is, that the area in which the Ka’aba was allegedly built by Abraham was nowhere near the region where Abraham was to establish his family, so why build a temple or an altar so far from Canaan? [Genesis 12:7-8; cf. First Epistle of Clement 10:3-5 (source for I Clement)]. Soon, Abraham and his family arrived in Canaan, and drove his herds into the region of Bethel, Shechem and Moreh [Genesis 12:4-6]. After an appearance of God in Canaan, Abraham moved his house further south, into the Negev. The Negev is in Canaan, on the West side of the Dead Sea, north of the Wilderness of Zin. It is bordered on the east by Edom, and could not have possibly included the Syro-Arabian desert region further to the east, and certainly excludes the uninhabited lands surrounding Mecca 700 miles to the south.

Next, a famine struck Canaan, and Abraham sought refuge by going ‘down to Egypt’ [Genesis 12:10] and later, his son Ishmael would take an Egyptian for a wife [Genesis 21:21]. To summarize so far, Abraham had yet to travel farther south than the centers of power in Egypt. Still a long way from Mecca.

Abraham later left Egypt a wealthy man and soon separated from his nephew Lot [Genesis 13:14]. Abraham then moved to Hebron, and built an altar to Yahweh. Later, a war breaks out in the region of the Dead Sea [Genesis 14:1-24] and Abraham defeats a tyrannical king in a battle north of Damascus near Mt. Hermon [vv. 13-17] frees Lot and establishes himself as ‘blessed by the God Most High’. God then establishes His covenant with Abraham, and promises to his descendants ‘this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates’ [Genesis 15:18-21]. Notice by using your atlas that the boundaries for the covenant lands are not even close to Mecca or central Arabia. The river in Egypt was most likely the Wadi el-Arish. The Euphrates is in northern Syria. It makes no sense that God would tie a people to a land and the land to the people, only to draw his Prophets from someplace else.

Next we find that Abraham had been living in Canaan for ten years, traveling about Canaan as seasonal weather patterns required [Genesis 16], when he became impatient with God’s plan and took Hagar as a second 'wife'. The same Hebrew word is used in 16:3 to describe both Sarai and Hagar as wife. However, the status of Hagar is debatable. Follow this link for a fuller discussion on 'Hagar in Abraham's Household'. The Egyptian maid conceived, in Canaan, and bore Abraham's son, in Canaan. Abraham’s anxiousness to have a son caused him and his family great grief. Rather than exercising self-control and forbearance, he took a course that was a threat to his faith. While Abraham’s actions nearly lead him astray, he was not the first nor the last to doubt God’s promises. Hagar soon suffers intense humiliation at the hands of Abraham and Sarah, but at Beer-Lahai-Roi is met by the Angel of the Lord, and delivered from her plight. This event took place West of the Wadi el-Arish, in Egypt and nearly 1,000 miles from Mecca. She was most likely trying to return home to Egypt.

After the establishment of the Covenant of Circumcision, we find Abraham talking to God under the ‘holy tree of Mamre’, which is near Hebron, nearly 1,000 miles from Mecca [Book of Genesis 18:1]. Later, Abraham intercedes for Sodom, which is then destroyed for its depravity and Lot escapes to Zoar [Genesis 18:16-19:30; cf. First Epistle of Clement 11:1-2]. Outside of Zoar, Lot was the victim of a scheme concocted by his eldest daughter. Zoar was in the southern tip of the Dead Sea in the Valley of Siddim, and like every other event from the OT, a long way from Mecca. From Lot’s daughters are born the Moabites and the Ammonites, longstanding enemies of Israel and Judah. Moab and Ammon lay on the east side of the Dead Sea and later form the eastern edge of the Covenant Land. The southeastern extreme of the Covenant Land extends no farther than this and no prophets would ever be called from beyond these borders.

Following the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, we encounter Abraham in Gerar, between Kadesh and Shur. In Gerar Isaac was born, wells were dug and treaties were struck. In short, there is no reason imaginable that God would take Abraham from his wells, family and tents in Canaan and command him to raise the foundations of the Kaaba over 1,000 miles away. All of this is a death blow to the Quran’s claims to Abraham, but let’s discuss a few more Biblical passages, ending with the death and burial of Abraham in order to close the lid on Islam once and for all.

Isaac is later weaned and tension again increases between Sarah and Hagar. Sarah pleaded with Abraham to cast Hagar out, and the following morning she was given bread, a water skin and her son. She then wandered into the wasteland of Beer-Sheba, in southern Canaan [Genesis 21:8-21]. In these passages, God addresses Abraham and calls Hagar the ‘maidservant’ [Hb אמה 'amah' not ‘wife’ as in 16:3; compare the Latin Vulgate where in 21:8-12 ‘ancilla‘ is ‘maidservant’ or ‘female slave’ ]. Hagar had lost any status she may have earlier enjoyed, so her status as a wife at all can be questioned.

Before we leave Hagar to history, let me remind you of four important differences between the Bible and Quran surrounding this narrative. In the Biblical narrative,  Hagar’s suffering and plight are of paramount importance to understanding the events surrounding the birth of the Promised Son. These events also give us insight into the treatment of women in the ancient Near East, which are still evident in Islam today. Hagar is the only woman in the Scriptures who is given the honor of giving a name to God, and she receives her own distinct covenant as a reward for her suffering and submission. What does the Quran say about this incredible woman who endured so much suffering? Nothing. So much for Islam honoring its pivotal women.

Eventually, Ishmael settled in the Wilderness of Paran, and took an Egyptian wife. Just where is the Wilderness of Paran, and does it, as Muslims claim, include the lands far to the south in the Hijaz? Let’s again look at our atlas. Paran is an ill-defined term in the Old Testament, suggesting that outside of it being a place on the route of the Exodus [Numbers 12:16], the region had very little geographical or theological importance to the Israelites. There is no prophetic scripture suggesting that a prophet would come from the Wilderness of Paran, nor a promise of prophetic license promised to Hagar or her descendants [Gen 16:7-16]. It is also worth noting that God spoke to Hagar, never to Ishmael. Very curious.

Located in the Sinai, Midian and Edom are natural borders to the east. Canaan is due north and central Sinai to the west. Not only are the borders of Paran well within the Sinai Peninsula, but as mentioned earlier, migration across the barren lands of Arabia was far less likely than remaining close to the routes of the Exodus. While migrations of people from Palestine into the Hijaz appear to be rare from the extant evidence, armies from Babylon did venture south. One example is Nabonidus King of Babylon who in the 6th century B.C. established outposts and colonies in the region. A total of six oasis towns are listed in the extant inscriptions, and while Yathrib is mentioned, Mecca, which is 280 miles south of Yathrib is nowhere to be seen on his lists. Mercantile movements were more common, but not until the 10th century and long after the death of Abraham. A notable case in favor of the Quranic view of Abraham’s travels can be found in the Book of I Kings [10:1-13] where the Queen of Sheba did in fact make the journey from S.W. Arabia to Israel. However, the territory of Sheba and also Tema are mentioned in the Book of Job [6:19] and yet while the region was traveled by merchants and known to the Biblical writers, there is still no mention of Mecca. Sheba is again discussed by the Prophet Isaiah [60:6] and nothing is said of Mecca or any dialectal variant of the name offered by Muslims. The Sabeans of Yemen never even mention the city either. The conclusion is evidently that Mecca was not in existence until long after Abraham's journeys.

Following God’s expulsion of Hagar and Ishmael, life continues for Abraham and his only wife Sarah. A disputed well becomes a source of controversy with King Abimelech. This name may translate 'Slave of Molech'. If this Biblical name were a derivative of the Canaanite name, that would serve as strong evidence that much of the Book of Genesis pre-dates Israel's Kingdom Period and gives even greater evidence to the non-existence of Mecca during the period of Abraham's travels, and an oath is sworn in Beersheba, again in Canaan [Genesis 21:22-34]. Later, Abraham is called to Mt. Moriah and the well known 'binding of Isaac' is played out. Mt. Moriah is also in Palestine, north of Beersheba. While the exact location is unknown, it only took Abraham three days to travel, so it could not have taken place in Mecca [Genesis 22]. An important observation here is that Isaac is called ‘your only son’ three times in this chapter. How can that be? Because Ishmael had already been sent away. He was to have no part of the covenant promised to Abraham and given to Isaac.

Soon, we find that Sarah had died, and Abraham arranges for the purchase of the Cave of Machpela. Yet again he has not left Canaan [Genesis 23]. Here Muslims need to explain why God would allow Abraham to build a tomb in Canaan for his family, but then a temple 1,000 miles away in a barren region of the Hijaz. In chapter twenty-four, we find that Abraham had become 'old in years' [24:1] It was time to find a wife for Isaac. Note that Abraham had nothing to do with finding a wife for Ishmael. Abraham's chief servant was selected for the task of conducting the search. An oath was sworn that the wife would not be a Canaanite but from Abraham's people in Mesopotamia. Let’s be reasonable here. If Abraham had built the Kaaba, then why wouldn’t Isaac’s wife be taken from the local tribes in the Hijaz or even farther south? . He returns home with Rebekkah to south Canaan, she weds Isaac and later Abraham dies and is buried with his wife Sarah in Machpelah. Both Ishmael and Isaac attended the funeral. Both must have been very close to Canaan, and in no way can we conclude that any of these men ever travels to Mecca to build a shrine to Allah and the other pagan gods native to Mecca. The Quran 11:49 clearly states that there had been no prophets to the Arabs before, so it can't be true that Abraham built the Kaaba. Also note that the Islamic traditions point out that before Muhammad’s claim to the prophetic office, none of his people had made the claim before him [Bukhari, Vol 1, Book 1, #6].

This all leads us to a connection with the nation of Israel, the Davidic Kingdom and the Savior who even now offers mercy to his wandering sons [Psalm 100:5,8; Luke 1:50; cf. Apology of al-Kindy, p.121].

 Articles by Jesse Toler

Eumm! Nice photos @PaganNja.
@LagosShia, is there anything under islamic control today, that Muhammed angel did not reviewed to him?
People like u can over believe these revelation that contradicts The entire history book.

I ve a thread on the Ka'aba, u can see it if u want to prove a point.

As for the idol temples, that are now churches, i dont know if God dwells in a place like that. If the bible recorded events like that then, its ok, but if not. Man tradition in practoce. I know that the golden Calf was made by the children of Israel for an idol worshiping.

When Moses came and saw that, he didnt conserve it and purify it for Gods use, instead, he distroyed it.
The unseen demons have no hiding place. A place originally for the purpose of God's cannot be changed for Idol.

As the koran states. Which means, Abraham brought them a religion that even the Torah did not record. And after his days, the Meccans turn their back at Abraham's religion and start Idolatry with the Kaaba.
Until Muhammed took over again


This is Pure tales. Back ur claims with history older than the quran or else!?

At LagosShia, before ever i speak about any event or activity Muslims are engaged in. I first of all look at the root of it, that is. The founder. Whatever Muslims are practising today, was also praticed by Muhammed. Multiple wives etc.

Did Jesus, the source of Christianity, without him in which no man can see God. Did he pratice man and woman afare? No. Did he encourage did his disciples indulged in multiple wives afare? No. So u must see why ur co-muslim has failed his tread. He has no understanding of what he has qouted. The bible does not encourages multiple wives. Period!

U ve failed to accept shame for ur miss interpretations. No one interprets the bible without the help of the Holy Spirit.
U cannot change the word of God. God said one man one woman. God never commanded anyone or prophets to marry multiple. But if they do, he does not condemn them for it. We ve seem multiple cases in the bible. When a person choosed to marry more, he has chAnces of sinning against God. Many that did it, found themselves turning from God, while their Children in one jealous case or the other. So As long as God did not make a command on this. Any man that surported it, be it a prophet or bishop, he does that by his own authourity and tradition.

My point is that, From Geneses to Revelation, i'm yet to see where is says. God commanded multiple wives.
Christ is the head of the church, so is The Husband the head of "his" wife. Not wives as u claim.

As we are not promised multiple wives or fathers or mothers on earth. So are we not promised same in Heaven.
U must know that. The bible told that, "one with God is Majority". Is not a physical majority but a spiritual one.

Loosing father or mother or wife for the sake of Christ is have Christ in a Hundredfold. He does not means he will fabric us foriegn fugures. He refares to himself. So stop telling us of what the Martin Luther and other believe. It is not tradition that matter. It is what Christ teaches.

LagosShia:
she twisted and distorted "it".

didn't you see she could not even quote a complete verse (4:24)?

as for that girl,i'm done with her.anytime she misbehaves,i will treat her as she deserves.

Oh @lagosShia, wht did i twist? U re reading from ur book and call it twist? Dont tell me u re dinying islamic teaching.
Muhammed did authorised R.aping the slave women by his friends/compagnions.
U must know that, those that got converted by force into Islam, when they were in Islam, they valide the reason for rejecting it initially. Muhammed's death, brought out secrets. We must continue to read reliable History book.
Thanks to hadith anyway.

A true characteristics of a pure Muslim. What happened to the woman bordens that brought her to Jesus?
He did not refares to the Woman as Dog. It was same saying the he was not sent to her.

"Unless u become like little children, ye cannot see the kingdom of God." Do u think he is directly telling u to go in your mums womb and reborn to become like little Children? No.

“I tell you the truth, "it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." Again I tell you, "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle" than for a rich man to enter the ,

Will u now say, he is calling his people Camel and Niddle?

If there is anyone who shows true racism is he that Arab Prophet that sold your slave formothers as an exchange.
He Massacra black race like no mans business. U re not Arab, so why having hot blood when he is been exposed!

Again, u only choosed the wife. Are you now saying he promised us 100 fathers, mothers etc as in the verse u qouted?

I present you a prove that openly contradict your interpretation Sir.
This muslim man has failed his thread completely lols. U ve been perfectly corrected already, but i would still fill u with sense in regard to ur misinterpretation. First i must start from he who brought fort marriage. (GOD)

God is the one that brought marriage to mankind. He made the first man, Adam (Genesis 1:26).   He saw that it was not good for Adam to be alone.  He then made a “wife” for Adam. "Note": God did not make “wives” for Adam. If He had wanted Adam to have more than one wife, He would ve made him more than one.  But One was enough.

In Genesis 2:23,24 says that “a man is to leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife.” God did NOT say that man was to be joined to his “wives.”  He said that man was to be joined to his “wife.” That is one and only one!

Paul compares the "husband and wife" to "Christ and the church":  “For the husband is the head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church, ”  (Ephesian 5:23).  In Ephesians 1:22,23 we are told that the church is the body of Christ.  There is only one "body" (Ephesians 4:4) so there is only one church.  Christ has only one church so a man can have only one "wife."  Nowhere does the Bible speak of a man being over wives and that being right with God.

In matt 19:3-9)  Jesus said that “a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his "wife," and the two shall become one "flesh.”  It's one flesh not two. If a man marries more than one wife, how can this varse qualifies him?
It will make no sense bacause a man Cant make one flesh with two wives.

In 1 Timothy 3:2 we are told that an elder MUST be the husband of "ONE WIFE."   Why not two or more?  If it is a good practice, then why should not a church leader be a polygamist?  The reason is that God does NOT want that kind of a marriage. So he will not even promise it, u ve misinterpreted the verse. I ve done u enough proves by contradicting ur interpretation. Right from the old testament, we see That God never ordered any man to marry wives.

The ideal of man marrying more than one is a tradition. Some do agree with Gods plan, some not.
You must know that first, Polygamy in the Bible causes strife and jealousy
I can present u multiple cases. And they end up sinning against God. So its a sin for Christians to practice it. How much more will Christ promised it to us.

@lagosShia is shamefully saying the islamic books are fake.
A Hadith Sahih is an authentic one. I brough them from same source.

U ve qouted biblical verses and yet show an Event that Christ commanded stonning to death.
Ur Kuran that was written by men, edited several times. Some parts were said to be eaten by animals
A Holy book that ve lost half value, its not wort it. The missing verses in the Quran are the deadly ons.
They were removed, not lost, thats the truth why the Quran still remain in pretends.

LagosShia:
Jesus upheld stonning:
example of how Jesus upheld the mosaic old testament law:

Exodus 21:17
"Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death".

Matthew 15:4
"For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death".
  ( did anyone told u Jesus let down law? A situation that has nothing to do with the said law arose to his face. He handled the issue perfectly. He did not disrespect the law at all. I will try to analyse what i mean, when i said he made a point
to them.


furthermore,scholars have viewed the reported case of the adultress in the bible as a case of christianity's "pious fraud".it was a made-up story!!!  (And who re those scholars? So Deut 18, Daniel 2: etc are also made up as they are from one book.

I believe u went through the said verse. The law clearly states the stoning for both caught parties.
The Elders that brought the woman were not seeking justice from Jesus. But were trying to trick him and make Him Look bad.
Their intensions were not to learn anything from him eaither.
But Jesus Christ taught them a lesson even though they did not come to learn one.
To uphold the Law of Moses, the both participants were to be tried and put to death.
If Jesus would ve condemned her to death he would ve broken the "Law of Moses"
Jesus actually works according to the Law of Moses by not breaking it.
When He asked, “he who ve not sinned" they all left becos they were all sinning in this specific act by been partial by not bringing the man whom they caught her with to be tried as well. Of course she cant commit adultery alone? There a man!
The point Jesus made here is that, He took the law of Moses a step further (He perfected It) by forgiving the woman
(something that the Law could not do becos It could only condemn). He told her, did anyone condemn u woman? (no) Jesus told her, neither do i condemn u, go and sin no more.

Muhammed ordered stoning the woman, why the man gets a light punishment. Injustice.

All through Jesus days, he didnt condemn anyone, but always show mercies.

you ve suddenly ignored the hadiths that shows Muhammed's no merci, as par the Stoning,

what was Jesus reaction tells u in the above verses u qouted? Did he ordered them to stone her because it was Moses Law? Jesus proved a point.

They tempted Jesus because they wanted to accuse him, but he was the law himself, he handled them in the way no one expected. If u ve not sinned, be the first to throw the stone. truelly, all ve commited thesame crime, so no one was free. Those Muhammed has been ordering to stone were they free from the act? Even himself was also adultrous according to hadith. but had no one to Judge him.

[qoute]i could have rejected those sunni hadiths under 2 seconds!!!

but let us see what they say:
that is just punishment as their torah prescribes for them.

[/quote]No it was Islamic order by Muhammed, or else, he will handle it the other way round.

[quote]Volume 3, Book 34, Number 421:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Sad bin Abi Waqqas and 'Abu bin Zam'a quarreled over a boy. Sad said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother ('Utba bin Abi Waqqas) who took a promise from me that I would take him as he was his (illegal) son. Look at him and see whom he resembles." 'Abu bin Zam'a said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is my brother and was born on my father's bed from his slave-girl." Allah's Apostle cast a look at the boy and found definite resemblance to 'Utba and then said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abu bin Zam'a. The child goes to the owner of the bed and the adulterer gets nothing but the stones (despair, i.e. to be stoned to death). Then the Prophet said, "O Sauda bint Zama! Screen yourself from this boy." So, Sauda never saw him again.

more if u wish.

from@LagosShia:

in Islam,the child born out of wedlock or illicit sex is innocent.

the perpetrators of adultery are punished.

To the bold: Is it too difficult for u to accept that Muhammed mentioned "stone"?
Instead u use the word punish? Does death sentence now means punishment?

Another case Muhammed treated :


Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani:

A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal intimate intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. [/b]Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year."[b] The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.

I can see, Muhammed never ordered stone to death, It was U then playing Muhammed's role here.

that hadith is not accepted.it is fake.otherwise,it is contradictory.they forgot a verse,yet remember it in hadith.what an irnoy!!!

as for the bible:

the editing and re-editing takes place every year.take a look at bible interpolations and christianity's "pious fraud":

All Hadith are of Islam, u must stop decieving urself, u knows nothing better than the Islamic writer.

u will reject even the most valid Hadith with shame here, just to prove a point. Muhammed himself during his time ordered stoning.

According to Hadith Sahih


Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar :

The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."


Volume 3, Book 34, Number 421:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Sad bin Abi Waqqas and 'Abu bin Zam'a quarreled over a boy. Sad said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother ('Utba bin Abi Waqqas) who took a promise from me that I would take him as he was his (illegal) son. Look at him and see whom he resembles." 'Abu bin Zam'a said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is my brother and was born on my father's bed from his slave-girl." Allah's Apostle cast a look at the boy and found definite resemblance to 'Utba and then said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abu bin Zam'a. The child goes to the owner of the bed and the adulterer gets nothing but the stones (despair, i.e. to be stoned to death). Then the Prophet said, "O Sauda bint Zama! Screen yourself from this boy." So, Sauda never saw him again.

more if u wish.

LagosShia:
dont you get tired of repeating the same lies and allegations everytime?:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=837694.msg9888813#msg9888813

wen i dey call you ashewo u dey vex!only God knows wetin u dey do for france!!!

so can you tell us who were the pagans that built the Ka'bah?

was the temple of solomon in jerusalem also owned by pagans "originally"?

Do u want me to believeur rooster tales about A black cube that ve been existing centuries before Muhammed was born? How many stories did your self claimed prophet took authority and labelled  them as he wishes, for people like u to believe. The Kaaba has its true history.

Before and During Muhammad's time, the Ka'aba had been used by pagan Arabs( the Quraysh,). to house their numerous tribal gods, It was used for idol worship and trade. Muslim has no prove of hwo and who built the Kaaba. Muhammed self revelations made it known to Muslims that it was Abraham and His son that built it.  

In 630 A.D., Muhammad and his Friends took over leadership of Mecca. It was then Muhammad destroyed the idols inside the Ka'aba and re-dedicated it as a house of monotheistic worship to his three goddesses allah.
U think u can change history by brainwashing NL audience?

@lagoShia:the dishonety of the copy/paste and the author is very disgusting!

the christian missionary inserts his own words to make it seem the hadith is suggesting:

"The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to feel ill because of this food, and he would be treated with cupping for that". [/color]

how does the Prophet (sa) having treatement when he feels ill amount to his illness being from the poisoning? does "cupping" indicate a treatment only for poisoning?also,can poisoning be treated?if yes,he either survivded it for 3 years or died from it which was not the case!the opinions of those who think it was the poisoning he ate 3 years ago that caused his death,have no medical value.the poisoning could have had its effect.but definitely,what killed him was not the poisoning.a man poisoned is reported to be travelling as the above by Palappville shows.can you imagine a man under the influence of poison travelling with a donkey from Medinah to Makkah to perform pilgrimage?the Prophet (sa) underwent these journeys several times before his passing away!!!

U can ask the book that recorded it those question.

I ve quetion to ask u as a defendant. U are now claiming that Aisha, Muhamme, Anas and other authors etc etc. didn’t know what they were talking about? Do u know better than Muhammad the victim himself? he explicitly says that he felt the effect of that poison many times, and he himself attributes his death to the poison.

Was Muhammad unconscience, that he simply imagined this even though it was not true?
Are u therefore accusing Mohammad and his friends of being ignorant since u know more than they did regarding the effects of poison, example,

U say, that it is not possible for him to be harmed and die by the poisoned food eaten three (3) years earlier?

In this case, Maybe u are suggesting that he has adopted the initial position of Osama Abdallah who basically slandered Muhammad, Aisha his wife, and Allahs’s angels for wrongly believing that Mohamad was "bewitched" when in reality he was suffering from Alzheimer’s disease. Whice of this do u @LagosShia belived leads to his death?

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 71, Number 661:

Narrated 'Aisha: Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle so that he began to imagine that he had done something although he had not. One day while he was with me, he invoked Allah and invoked for a long period and then said, "O 'Aisha! Do you know that Allah has instructed me regarding the matter I asked Him about?" I asked, "What is that, O Allah's Apostle?" He said, "Two men came to me; one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. One of them asked his companion, 'What is the disease of this man?' The other replied, 'He is under the effect of magic.'

This kind of prophet with strange tales 

Posted by: ivoice247: Which ever way he died does not concern us,  what i'm trying to make you understand is that you are just copying hadith from all nuke and corner of the internet and pasting them to insinuate a conclusion that is false. @plappville, so what if prophet muhammed(saw) died from poison,  we believe in prophet Zachariah and prophet Yayha (john the baptist) and both were murdered by the jews on the same day just like how they wanted to kill muhammed(saw) So what! Any muslim that does not believe in the prophethood of Zakariya and Yahya(as) will never smell the fragrance of paradise.

Their death is different from that of Muhammed. Muhammed was tested, the woman wanted to be sure if he was a true prophets. Failing to detect the poison before, made him a loser. What point did he showed to the woman?
Woman u are right, i ate the poison witout knowing! the prove is his death due to the pains he attains from the poison.

[b]There is one occasion like this in the bible, but as a true prophet of God was around, he prevented the evil from take place. This is a record of the Bible on event where the prophet Elisha saved certain other prophets from a harmful effects of poisonous food:

"Elisha returned to Gilgal and there was a famine in that region. While the company of the prophets was meeting with him, he said to his servant, 'Put on the large pot and cook some stew for these men.' One of them went out into the fields to gather herbs and found a wild vine. He gathered some of its gourds and filled the fold of his cloak. When he returned, he cut them up into the pot of stew, though no one knew what they were. The stew was poured out for the men, but as they began to eat it, they cried out, 'O man of God, there is death in the pot!' And they could not eat it. Elisha said, 'Get some flour.' He put it into the pot and said, 'Serve it to the people to eat.' And there was nothing harmful in the pot." 2 Kings 4:38-41 NIV

Why couldn't Muhammad have done the same for his friend if he was truly a prophet like the OT prophets?[/b]

U are saying your Muslim fellows wontmake heaven, how? u all insult Jesus, this makes u a perfect Muslim, so they will make Islam paradise.

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about Reproduction interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

Its about Muhammed and his followers!

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have intimate intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male intimate organ before emission of Fluid to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

Again, Muhammed and his followers, U ve nothing of such to Qoute about Jesus and his disciples have u?
The both are far of different intensions as seen.

LagosShia:
there is no evil in the Quran and Islam.

dont let the evil bible followers deceive you with their marketing techniques.they are deceptive.very!!!

as for you,repent!!!

I guess u should blame the Islamic book, i am not the authors! U are defending the undefendable.