Steep:
Then that renders your whole argument null and void.
However, that ignorance is for you and you alone.
Your hypocrisy is that you can't live out your world view, when you cross the road you avoid vehicles because you are sure vehicles exist and they can kill you.
When you are thirsty of water you are sure to drink water not sniper. If you weren't truly sure that reality exist you would have died by now.

I said there's high probability things are as we perceive them, but NOT SURE!
But even Einstein who was sure still drank water. See below

triplechoice:


This is completely off and no where near what Harry postulated. You didn't understand what you read from him at all.

The "self" he talked about is not the "real self" but the "false self" ,the human personality, which is a product of the environment the individual grew up in.

He says the human personality, the false self, which most identify themselves with is not real person, but illusion that's controlled automatically by neural pathways in the brain formed from what's made of the impressions received through the five senses .

And he recommended that to transcend this "false self" one should practice meditation to rewire the brain and free themselves from it's control and influence and start operating from the position of the "real self "that existed before it, human personality, was formed..

But for you you have mistaken the "false self" for the "real person" and believe if the thoughts which has created it is eliminated, the real person seizes to exist. That's not true.

Go watch his videos below. They are not that long to watch

Steep:
Is this about mocking religious people?
You are even more religious than the so called religious people.

He'd said religious people don't use their heads. Your quarrel is with him

triplechoice:

You're generalise nearly everytime. Everything is not hypothetical.

We "basically" know something, but not everything. That's the correct thing to say, or maybe it's you who " don't know anything" , your own words in quote, and assume everyone else doesn't .

We don't need to be completely sure of what's "out there" before we start interacting with it through our senses. That's what our reality is,and it's about time you embraced it to end confusion.

And we have been doing that , interacting with what's out there, and that's why, for instance, it's possible for both of us to have this conversation through the gains of such interaction; the Internet.

A blind person from birth is still able to interact with it's environment to be "sure of what's out there , how much you with eyes to see., but seem not to want to use because you already assume it's inadequate.

As long as you always have at back of your mind that you only see 0.003% of light, and don't know what 95% of stuff around you is, and your earth is smaller than an atom!
Study what Einstein said below

Steep:
lol
Since you are not sure of the true nature of thoughts, how do you know that thought exist,
Or that dreams exist? Explain.
can you define reality?

Exactly. We don't! That's why the conclusion of Descartes ought be "something exists" NOT "thought exists" and definitely NOT "I exist"

triplechoice:


No. I don't agree with you.

We know enough of what water is and what it's made of through interacting and experimenting with it .

But If you, yourself, are not sure or confused about what it's, then you can try this little experiment to clear your confusion.

Stop using that we all call water for three weeks starting from today; Don't drink it and don't bathe with it, and after then, please
come back to share your experience with us so we learn from you..

It's said that nothing can be known except through its opposite. I believe when you experience the opposite of not using water
for that period of time you will learn something..

You don't know what anything is. Quantum mechanics has gone from everything is atoms constantly in vibration, though they may seem solid, to now saying everything is immaterial information!

y3mi:

Dimensions from a theoretical sense as it's relates to complex maths and physics enriches our understanding as to what define our reality beyond what we readily perceive as thus. It is you who have concluded other dimensions are bearer of beings. I think what you meant , as I'll put it... they could be realities wherein other consciousness (entities) operates on more dimensions than ours so they possibly could be inaccessible to us, metaphysically speaking however there are ways by which those before us could connect to them, either to acquire insight, noesis, knowledge, truth, clarity, foresight etc.

That's what's meant by "beings" and that domain is supernatural to us. Just as we are supernatural to them. Unless you say nothing is supernatural because it is not supernatural to whoever is native to it

budaatum:


Your opinion is that you are extremely real but you are not sure you are real?

You should listen to yourself so you hear how you sound.

No, u listen to yourself. My opinion is Putin is a reptilian, but I have no way of being sure!

triplechoice:
Wrong. What seizes to exist is the human personality, "the false self" that's a product of those memory. My " real self", the real me continues to exist. My friend, the human being is not a machine or a bot for that to happen, and infact science says such a things is scientifically impossible since the neural pathways which controls our objective behaviour is unique to the individual. You don't know this science hence you have imagined what can never happen.

Have you tried it with a dog before to know or you are just imagining things?

Ok, unless you believe in supernatural, when a child or a dog is born, does it have a "self". How does the self develop? What's your argument to this below

budaatum:


I'm not surprised you would "only agree with" whoever, since you don't consider yourself real enough to form your own opinion or view of your own self.

Oh. my opinion is that I am extremely real, the realest niccur u ever met. Problem is in "sure". I have no way of being SURE!

budaatum:


I have wondered. And I can just about see you arguing with the figment of your imagination', except my own real self is not agreeing with your figment self and is calling your figment self out just as I'd hope your real self would, though you haven't shown you'd listen to your self all not to talk of my self.

Sam Harris says your "real self" is an illusion, I only agree with him

budaatum:


I am not conceeding to you who does not know you have a head.

Anyway I suspect you're a figment of my imagination, so what does it matter😆

budaatum:


I am saying you don't use your head!

😅
So you are conceding religionists do use their heads?

kkins25:



As I said in my previous response, your arguments, or Sam's statement for that matter, only make sense in the context of perception of reality and not that of questioning the existence of reality.

Unless, of course, you have a different understanding of reality.

A little side note:

I think the point you are trying to make is that the nature of reality, as we know it, may not be the real representation of reality. What we perceive of reality is limited to our five senses, which we heavenly rely on to define our surroundings. Correct?

We cannot question the nature of existence if we don't exist, can we?

Sam's statement is about whether you actually exist as you perceive yourself. In reality you don't. It is an illusion.

As for questioning, you are assuming that questioning can't exist by itself. You have no way of being sure of that. Dead people think and question while dead. Seems thought can exist without a "you"

y3mi:

Those who are 100% sure that the supernatural doesn't exist bear a nuanced understanding of that word - "supernatural" They process it only within a the framwork of Christo-judeo myths repackaged into religion.

Supernatural is as to me as it would be to a 11th century English man seeing how I press some things on my phone screen and he sees an image of himself captured. He yells... "This must only be the work of a devil."

Both you atheists and theists have got lots of retuning to do, because both are as confuse as they come.


Until they remove the limit the mind to explore. The world behind the world can be revealed.

Science though is the ultimate supernatural gift that allows man to understand what make the natural super.

Well, scientists have determined there are possibly 100's of dimensions while we perceive only 4. What would you call beings from those dimensions?
Also geniuses, including Einstein, Tesla, Drake, Muhammed, etc saud they were fed thoughts. Where are those thoughts from?

The problem with our science is that
it is like we are trying to answer the question: X+5=?, without knowing AT ALL what X is, wether X is even a number at all or a goat! It is also why our greatest thinkers end up saying we don't know anything - if you don't know what X is, you don't know anything!

y3mi:

Abeg who you know wey don see shape shifting demons everyday.

See below. There are people actually in spiritual wars
Cultism, for instance, is spiritual

budaatum:


It's not only religionist who are not entertaining your junk here. Even atheists are not buying it because of your illogical dishonesty, which is not an illusion and does not exist entirely in anyone's head since we are intelligent enough to see right through real you.

I'm actually the one saying the truth. Which part of my post below is a lie?

Here's the TRUTH:
You find yourself in this reality. You don't AT ALL know what it is. You don't know if it's an illusion (like Einstein thinks), a matrix, a simulation, a hallucination, a dream, a heaven, a hell, a prison, if you have free will in it or you just have illusion of free will, if the reality is being manipulated, if you're being manipulated, where your thoughts come from, whether you are the one actually thinking them, what thinking actually is, where your dreams come from, whether there is a "you" at all (atheist Sam Harris says there is not), wether things are predetermined (as Einstein thought), etc., etc.. All you know is that there seem to be things going on and you seem to be in them {or they seem to be in you - to the extent there is a "you"}
Bottom line: YOU DON'T HAVE THE FOGGIEST IDEA WHAT THIS IS or what is truly going on!

To compound all that, you find out you are practically blind (you see 0.003% of light), that you don't know what 95% of stuff around you is, that you only perceive 4 dimensions out of hundreds, and that on a cosmic scale, your earth practically doesn't exist - if the universe were shrunk to size of earth, your earth won't be visible even with the strongest microscope!

triplechoice:
"Could exist entirely in your head" is hypothetical and not truth statement

And where "is really there" ?
Inside your head or out there?

Everything is hypothetical. We basically don't know anything.

About "really there", that's the point, we have no way of being sure. We perceive it's out there

triplechoice:
@ PoliteActivist,
When you transcend the illusion of the self through contemplation according to Sam Harry, "where" do you arrive at?

You realize there is no "you" that's separate from everything else. "You" seizes to exist

triplechoice:


I have gone through the thread and cannot find any evidence that what you have been saying is the same as Sam Harry's

Well, I wrote this below. Isn't it similar to Harris?

If you don't believe there is a supernatural, then you must agree that the "self", the individual person, doesn’t exist - it is an illusion of accumulated memory. If your memory is wiped, "you" seizes to exit TOTALLY. If another person's memory is put in that body, that person becomes "you". Same applies to a dog or anything else. You are your accumulated memory, NOTHING ELSE! Without memory the individual, the "self", does not exist!

triplechoice:


Then, what's that thing we all collectively refer to as water, and what should it be called?

That's the point, we don't know. Neither do we know what are oxygen and hydrogen which make it up. We met them here and gave them those names. Quantum mechanics is teaching us everything is information, only information exists

budaatum:


Doesn't matter what he is. What matters is that he uses his head and is honest, unlike some.

I thought you said religionists don't use their heads?

Steep:
see stupidity, if the universe is not real but only in your head, then what is your head and where is your head located? Thought without thinker foolishness.

"Your head" is euphemistic. We actually mean "your thoughts", which we are NOT sure of it's true nature.
Where do your thoughts come from? Where do your dreams come from?

HellVictorinho6:



9163989689

Opay

To protect my identity, someone else will do it - tomorrow. 5K

budaatum:


His entire strategy is to get you to accept you are as ignorant as he believes he is, though he's here claiming to know what he claims he can not know.

It's a person of god strategy too. They get you to admit you can't use your own mind so they can control you, just like man was made to believe he descended from stupid ignorant Adam to slave in a garden instead of created in God's image to rule and subdue and multiply.

The white folks who brought us this religion and sold us enslaved Adam were definitely not slaves, and obviously ruled and subdued and multiplied, while we whom they brought it to have not yet realised that "from the sweat of thy brow" is not a curse but reality as it certainly surely really is.

😆 He doesn't know that the person he's talking to, Steep, is a creationist. Second time you're making a fool of yourself. You're becoming almost like Dr. Reed!
Folks please help us find out, is Sam Harris (below) a religionist? He's saying the sorta things I've been saying!
I don't know how you people reason. How can a religionist even remotely entertain the things I've been saying - that the universe could be anything at all, and could exist entirely in your head, and that the individual self is an illusion? And that our senses could be such that they don't tell us what is really there - that they could be lying to us. What sorta religionist would entertain any of those??
Result of this debate comming up soon.
Here's Sam Harris:

FxMasterz, maynman, Dtruthspeaker, Image123, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, LordReed, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, DeepSight, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack, Botragelad, isan, MaxInDHouse, Fourthpredator, seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2,  kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn

HellVictorinho6:



Mr or mrs bla bla bla , qed.



Till now. Not even 3k.

You can call me Mr my dear.. I try to come accross as one.
You really need 3k? Only 3k? Drop your aza

Steep:
lol ignoramus that doesnt even know what water is, what do you even know, I guess you cant even define a woman or a man.
You don't even know the difference between science and philosophy.

My friend you don't know what H²O really is, just as you don't know what this reality you find yourself in really is. Why our greatest thinkers always conclude they know nothing - Socrates, Newton. Einstein, etc

Steep:
stop projecting your ignorance on others. It is you who doesn't know what thought is, you don't know anything at all. Ask a secondary school student what water is and they would tell you. You can't have a product without a producer neither a creation without a creator, it is a self defeating logic that you exhibit.
Wipe your memory and you no longer exist?
So people without schizophrenia no longer exist?
This is the product of the work nonsense that you folks claim as enlightenment. Nonsense.

Another tantrum thrower who can't think deeply. What is water? Really, what is it? And why in that particular form? YOU DON'T KNOW! You met it here like that and called it water. Neither do you know if this reality is physically real, simulated, matrix, hell, heaven, long-running computer game, energy-generating mechanism, etc. You have NO WAY of being sure what it is or what it is all about. One thing we do know (of course, always assuming we can trust our senses) is that if the universe were reduced to size of the earth, the earth would not be visible with the strongest microscope. Scientists also tell us there are possibly hundreds of dimensions and unlimited number of universes! Bottom line: you know almost nothing!

DeepSight:


I am done with this subject as I said.
Have a good day/ week.

Thanks 4 participating. See u around

Steep:
you have it backward, "thinking" is an action performed by another, a thinking being is a being that is self aware and capable of self reflection. Just like songs and singing, songs do not exist without a singer.

first of all define thought?

EXACTLY: first of all, what is thought?! You are not sure! Just as you don't know what is water. Just as you don't know any of the stuff you met here or why they are the way they are or what this reality is all about!
As far as thoughts, we know dead people who came back said they were thinking while dead. Possessed people, dreams,,etc. People who were no longer there but thinking still going on!
Bottom line: we don't know the true nature of thoughts or where thoughts truly come from.
Also, define you. You is your memory - thought! Wipe your memory and you no longer exist. Put another person's memory and they become you. You are thought!

Steep:
How can you have thought without a thinking being? Do you even live in reality? Thought is solely an attribute of a thinking being.

Here's what I wrote b4:

Describe the "thinking being". You can't. The only describable attribute of the "thinking being" you're sure of is thinking - thinking is the "thinking being"!

Can't you see that it's possible only thoughts really exist and everything else an illusion.
So it's the other way round: thoughts can exist without thinking beings but thinking beings can't exist without thoughts.
Ponder: where do your thoughts come from?

Naija the great!