₦airaland Forum

Truthvalue:
I did too and judging by eye-witness records, the Awori are Edo.

This is worth researching to see if there are actual historical records dating back to before the various tribes that now call themselves Yoruba came together as Yoruba.

Truthvalue:
I notice that the words Ouéni (Benin) and Awani (Lagos) have very similar french pronounciations, and these words were both wriiten down by french vistors to the region who were spelling local words in order to reflect the sounds which they were hearing. To me this signifies that the awori are just ordinary Edo people named after their location, just like Esan or Itsikeri or Benins or Akoko. What do you think ?

There is no eyewitness account of Lagos without the lordship of the Oba of Benin. So it would be nice to stop hearing stories of Lagos being invaded by the Oba of Benin, as it stands, Lagos' history starts with the Oba of Benin's military commander administering Lagos.

Also, the british colonial papers referred to the Lagos royal house as: house of Ado. Lagos was just an ordinary part of Benin empire, although most of the international trade of Benin empire seem to have taken place in Lagos.

I read somewhere that Aworis were originally Edo people but can't substantiate the claim.

Truthvalue:
Something tells me that that was the idea behind the Oba of Benin allowing the europeans to establish churches.

They should have gone beyond that. I don't know why such novelty (ability to read and write) at that time didn't interest them enough to educate their people on a massive scale.

It's like space technology being brought to Nigeria today and the rulers not taking advantage of it to train their people to become space explorers.

Even today, blacks Africa hardly appreciates the fact that the future belongs to science and technology. There is something about us that put too much emphasis on religion, just look at the religious craziness sweeping the land. China leapfrogged into her current position is just a few decades and we are all witnesses to how it was done, yet unable to copy the same method.

Our leaders are more interested in going to Mecca and Jerusalem for pilgrimages.

Today, we can't even dig a road side gutter without the supervision of some third rated white looking engineers in the names of expatriates, meanwhile, we have been training civil engineers for more than 60 years.

gregyboy:
It took a lot of convincing before the britsh approved the war, the war was expensive for them too, something they would have sweated to pay for, we let the greedy bastard of the britsh into our country they only didn't war us but destroyed us completely by caging us as minors in their formed country......
If we can pull out of this shithole, we will grow back to our former glory..

The queen of England died for her atrocities on benin and captain Philip went unpunished too when he hung himself

Looking back, I think the early Oba that got western education should have done more to spread the knowledge centuries before the British came, who knows, things may have been different. The Yoruba stories we are debating today were initially written by returnee slaves who took the advantage of their western education to advanced their tribe.

There is another opportunity for us now to advance ourselves in science and technology. Africa and Nigeria is lacking in this area, so we can begin to position ourselves now. Science and technology is what made small Israel what they are in the world today. Those of us in Europe and America should advance ourselves by taking advantage of the many opportunities that are open to us. Here, all blacks are viewed the same, no tribalism but racism.

gregyboy:
Wow.... I thank you for coming in on this one, we wont get to tell our children myth anymore rather fact, God bless you on this one benin history is just too elaborate to study it will take years and careful interpretation, and the royals feel unconcerned in teaching it on tvs, if u have the money i would love to do a comprehensive rededucation of benin history on tv.. Before vital oral information are completely lost


Even the queen idah war story is altered by the palace so i heard maybe the real history is too graphics to be let out by the royals, but who cares all is in the past the royals should know this and know peace ✌️

The oro history is sn oral history that can't be found on European document

But then again this is an 1837 document meaning its not what the europeans saw but maybe what they heard....


And for the britsh they really didn't underestimate benin i think they overestimated, the benin war brought the entire west Africa down, it was the benin war that the britsh soldiers gave the excuse to occupy west Africa

According to British 1897 documents, they complained that the Oba of Benin was disturbing the free flow of palm oil to Liverpool for making of soap. So the Benin war was initially for the control of Oil (palm oil) which the Oba of Benin had a monopoly. After the first humiliation by Benin, the British government was then convinced by their agents that the cost of a large expedition could easily by paid for by the artifacts they have previously seen in the Oba Palace. The British government was convinced that there were enough artworks in the Oba Palace to pay for the war.

Benin is actually filled with royal traditional grounds with rich history. We are gradually losing them.

Truthvalue and Gregyboy.

I just did a quick catch up with you guys and would like to add a few points.

1. According to Benin oral tradition, all new Obas mother were killed when the old Obas died. So Benin oral tradition is in agreement with the French book Truthvalue just referenced. However Oba Esigie hide his mother in a royal ground called Oro (meaning secret) Street in Benin. Oro Street is situated at the beginning of TV road by five junctions. When you enter the Street, towards the end of the street on the right side is a small forest which everyone is forbidden to enter. This small forest of trees at the centre of town has been a royal ground since the time of Oba Esigie.

The oral history said, when the Benin chiefs were looking for Oba Esigie's mother, Queen Idia for execution, Esigie hide his mother in this forest in Oro Street and stationed chief Ero of Urubi to be a guide to prevent anyone from coming close by announcing that the ground contains a secret. Chief Ero Palace is not very far from this location.

In Benin, every new Oba can promulgate new laws, so oba Esigie threatened the chiefs that were looking for his mother for execution that if his mother is killed, henceforth he will introduce a law that all senior chiefs and nobles mothers will also be killed when their fathers die. A deal was reached and queen Idia was speared. The killing of new Obas mother stopped from the time of queen Idia. We all know the role she later played in the Benin/Ida war.

2. What is not often reported is that the first British led by captain Philip that matched into Benin in 1897 had about 400 soldiers of mostly Hausas and other tribes, it was about eight British commanding about 400 Africa troops matching their ways with Scottish pipes and drums into Benin from Ughoton. This guys were ambushed by the Benin troops, only two British survived that initial attacks and there is no record of how many of the black troops were killed by Benin soldiers, few also ran into the forest for their safety.

The initial match on Benin was not sanctioned by the British government at Whitehall. But after the humiliation by Benin, the government was pushed to act against Benin.

Benin largely lost the war because Britain had the recently invented maxim gun which the Benin didn't have.

There are documentaries on YouTube called egua-Iyoba and another British documentary on the 1897 British massacre, this documentary referenced actual British government documents on the Benin massacre.

gregyboy:
She is like a frustrated fellow killing depression by trolling we binis given it up is never possible for her she lives for this.. Bro


She currently studying all material available to get back to us....

I dont know how she manage her time... Its still surprise me bro


I want her to exhaust all materials available to leave her defenseless.... She is almost getting there....

When you have a spare time and you want to catch cruise call her out she is a Yoruba zombie as long as its benin she will comeout..

But telling her to quit is like saying she should end her life

You know her too well.

TAO11:
Your kings (prior to the 1970s into the 1800s and all the way into the ancient past) have all maintained that their father & overlord is the Ooni of Ife.

Your kings made this confession. The Yorubas confirm it. We stated it on Nairaland. We simply stated history.

If reading this history sound to you like claiming you, then make sure to work on self.

You may be suffering from chronic-low self esteem problems.

Peace!

Is it too much of a ask to kindly request that you guys should free us. Benin people are already very proud people, but Yoruba claims and attachment is making our heads swell to the point of explosion.

The entire Benin people and the Oba of Benin have been disclaiming Yoruba heritage since 1963, but Yoruba will not let go. Since oba Eweka 2 and oba Akenzua 2 had these fairytales relationship with you guys and allowed you guys taste from the sweetness of Benin history at the beginning of the 20th century, you have latched onto Benin as if it's sugar.

TAO11 tell your people to free us, we are happy with no Yoruba ancestral relationship.

If you guys carry on like this insisting you must claim Benin by all means, the Benin may start passing out due to too much pride. Ejor Tori outrun, let the fallacy of Oba of Benin being Yoruba end, do you want us to start fainting due to too much pride. What kind of forced marriage is this? Tori olorun.

Achieve more than your current achievements and allow Benin to start running after you, you running after Benin is becoming very embarrassing for such self acclaimed sophistication people.

Please don't come back and tell us you are simply stating historical facts because there is no eyewitness historical evidence to back up Benin/Ife relationship until 1897. Ogane wasn't Ife, even if it was, just one reference in 400 years full of written history is not enough to establish a Benin/Ife relationship.

Please also don't come back with some archeological crap. What do I need archeological evidence for when there were actual people around that Chronicled Benin history for 400 years. Show us more evidence from their eyewitness accounts of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan being mentioned in their written records.

My brother in France is literally bursting out of his seams due to too much pride, gregyboy is running circles around you, schooling you and enjoying himself like there's no tomorrow. Tao give it up, you tried, you have fought a good fight. The truth is just tool difficult to fight against, no matter your weapons. It wasn't your fault that you are now becoming a laughing stock.

Why are some Yoruba so fixated with attaching themselves to Benin? Even if it could be proven that the Yoruba and Benin people were same people in prehistoric times, the disassociation of Benin from Yoruba since 1963 should be more than enough for the Yorubas to leave Benin alone.

Two successive Obas of Benin have publicly told you guys that they are not Yoruba but you guys will no let go.

How can your parent or children so publicly reject your claim of being related, yet, you are still looking for non existence evidence to attached yourself to them.

The entire Benin/Yoruba debate on Nairaland always centred around Yoruba laying claim to Benin and the Benins rejecting such claims.

The fact that Yoruba claim themselves to be most sophisticated in Nigeria but still feel the need to claim Benin speaks volumes about their self acclaimed sophistication.

If the Yorubas are as sophisticated as claim, Benin should be the ones freely attaching themselves to Yoruba, but instead Yoruba are the ones having sleepless nights to claim Benin.

The Benin and Oba of Benin say they are not Yoruba, just let go and let them be.

On a lighter side, I am beginning to think this is no longer a fair fight.

The Yorubas are trying to defend history filled with fairytales and myths whilst the Benin are armed to the teeth with actual eyewitness historical accounts and evidences.

Lies, myths and fairytales are very difficult to defend in the face of the truth.

By insisting that only evidences that support Benin/Ife relationship prior to the fall of Benin in 1897 will be accepted, amounts to tie their both hands behind their backs in a boxing fight and even the strongest heavyweight lier will have no chance against a featherweight champion of truth.

Very soon TAO11 will be on her own and hope depression will not set in at the rate the Benin is demolishing and destroying her obsession.

gregyboy:
Am here sir the desperate lady in her quest to prove me wrong Oduduwa wasnt an invention of Samuel johson she Referenced a book of 1894 talking about Oduduwa as a female goddess

And in our debate any refrence beyond 1897 would be regarded as invalid so don't her lure you beyond those years to prove her point she. Must be nailed

Using egharevba book written after 1897 as a refrence to her point is already invalid

Am waiting for your material sir

Let me drop the 1894 screenshot of the female Oduduwa

She wanted to escape from me calling Oduduwa an invention of Samuel johson and she gave me another point to hammer on, she will surely be punished by me

When am done with her she will look for earlier material regarding Oduduwa as a man and not a female goddess

Tao11 come here

Good job gregyboy, yet another nail on their coffin of lies. Another evidence to show Oduduwa was nothing but a mythical figure in Yoruba history.

At this rate, even TAO11 will have no choice but to start believing the truth.

Truthvalue:
I read this quote totally out of context

The context is below and very well defined:



Sorry my brother, I misred you, I just walked a 30 km walk and I was tired,

No worries. Exercise is very good for maintaining good health, keep it up.

Truthvalue:
Weird how Benin doesn't need to claim ife in order to show Benin's greatness, but it seems ife needs to claim Benin in order to claim greatness, this fact in it's self shows which is really great among the two.

Look the yoruba people over here, quit claiming us Edo, our culture and our monarchie. Show your greatness without mentioning our name. It is that simple.

You need to stop obsessing about us.

Benin greatness is self evident. Ife non existence greatness was created on paper. In the 1840s when Britain was already gaining strong foothold in the Niger area, they were continuously reminded that only the Oba of Benin can give legitimacy to who amongst the princes emerges as the Oba of Lagos. Benin was consistently mentioned in Lagos history because of the relationship and connection to Lagos.

Why was nothing written in this period about Benin/Ife relationship if indeed there was one.

Why would the British and Ajayi Crowder witness the reigns of five Obas of Benin and wrote nothing about their interactions with Ife if there was such interactions.

Records are there from when Benin/Ife interactions began, it was after the fall of the Benin empire. There is absolutely nothing written in Benin history to suggest Benin had any relationship with Ife prior to 1897.

I am still looking at the history books to find where Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan are mentioned with reference to Benin before 1897.

At this junction, almost all none Yorubas and quite a number of sincere Yoruba would have been convinced by now that there was indeed no interactions, connection and relationship between Benin and Ife until after 1897.

By the 1840s up till 1890, the Nigeria space was already fast opening up and a lot was written about the various tribes and their interactions with their neighbours. If Benin had anything to do with Ife, it would have most certainly be mentioned in these 50 years period.

In the last 50 years, thousands of words which can't be backed up with historical evidence have been written about Benin/Ife relationship compared to nothing written in the previous 400 years.

How could Ajayi Crowder have lived through the reigns of five obas of Benin and not have witnessed or heard about the followings:

1. The bodies of Obas of Benin who joined their ancestors taken to Ife for burial in the fabricated Oro Oba Ado burial site as the proponents of Benin/Ife relationship claimed.

2. Obas of Benin going to Ife for their beaded crowns or Ife sending Obas of Benin their beaded crowns as the defenders of the fallacious Benin/Ife relationship claimed.

3. Any of the five Oba of Benin going to Ife for visit after coronation. The Benin/Ife relationship trumpeters told us that it's customary for every Oba of Benin to visit Ife after coronation.

Why didn't Ajayi Crowder witness any of these and record them for posterity?

These are events that happen in the last 81 years before the fall of Benin in 1897. Ife is not even mentioned in Benin history in the last 81 years before the fall of Benin, yet someone is sounding like a broken record trying to say otherwise.

The British themselves did accept, infact it's widely accepted by the British that what their agents stating from Button wrote about Benin in nearly 40 years to the fall of Benin were grossly exaggerated, racially motivated and deliberately anti Benin because the Oba of Benin was see as a stumbling block to British interests in the territory controlled by the Oba of Benin. British agents in then Niger area portray Benin in negative lights to get the British government to remove the Oba they considered as their stumbling block. On the the other hand, the Alaafin literally fell on his knees to worship the British the first time he saw the white man in 1824.

1824 was the first time the Alaafin saw the white man and was willing to do anything for their comfort, unlike the Oba of Benin who the British saw as uncompromising.

This is the reason that the writings of the British about Benin starting from the 1860s is at great variance to early Europeans who were mostly in Africa for trade. The British didn't only came for trade but to colonised and those that they saw as stumbling blocks were given bad press and bad publicity while those they saw as good boys were elevated above others.

Stoplying:
Before the ending of the holidays, I will book a train ticket to London, I need to go and take a look at their immense collection of Benin bronze.

The beautiful pictures and videos I will take ...
I get to see the faces of my medieval ancestors. How many africans have that kind of luck ...?

Benin is the pride of the black man in the world. After centuries of slavery and the dehumanisation of the black race by racist slaves masters, the Europeans citizens of the 1800s were made to believe that black Africans lacked civilisation, history and not capable of logical reasoning.

All these changed when thousands of Benin artifacts were exhibited in London in September 1897. Thousands of European citizens who went to the exhibition were through into confusion because Africans were not supposed to have developed the sort of civilisation capable of such intricate and sophisticated artefacts.

I have already shown with logical reasoning that Benin couldn't have had relationship with Ife without Ajayi Crowder writing about it in his 48 years of missionary life in Nigeria. The life of Ajayi Crowder saw the reigns of five Benin Obas, yet he made no reference to them having any relationship or interaction with Ife in his life time.

Those that want to believe the Benin/Ife connection that was fabricated after the fall of Benin in 1897, can continue to do so.

gregyboy:
You made a brilliant point with ajayi crowther after i saw this your point i decide to research on what he wrote on the origin of yoruba people


The wrote on how ife was founded by 3 different brothers these 3 names never had Oduduwa in it,

That made already proved my assertion that Samuel johson invented Oduduwa into ife in his book in 1897

Ajayi crowther was also an Oyo man just like Samuel johson how come he would skip Oduduwa and Samuel johson didn't when there from thesame oyo


Samuel johson invented odudwa

We are afraid to read history fron research perceptive, Tao11 has been the messenger sent for we binis to humiliate yoruba history


Every blames goes to Tao11 and her crazy
obsession

The questions are:

1. Why didn't Ajayi Crowder record seeing atleast two Obas of Benin being taken to Ife for burial.

2. Why didn't Ajayi Crowder record seeing atleast two Obas of Benin that reigned in his time going to Ife to go and collect their beaded crowns as these people have been telling us.

3. Why didn't Ajayi Crowder record seeing traditional and cultural exchanges between Ife and Benin during his 48 years of his adult missionary life in Nigeria.

TAO11 is a blessing in disguise to the Benin here on Nairaland. She forced us to stop taking our history on face value without questioning it.

Looking closely at Ajayi Crowder's life, writings and the fact that he lived during the reigns of the last five Obas of Benin (1809 - 1891) before the fall of Benin in 1897 and yet wrote nothing about Benin/Ife supposed relationship, I have never been more convinced that Benin never had any relationship, interactions and connections with Ife until after the fall of Benin in 1897.

Stoplying:
When it's all set and done, the truth is all that matters:

Documented history of the yorubas :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llporKrPsbU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2hU-ibkPfg

This is why whenever history is discussed, these yoruba always discuss fairytales like oduduwa and oranmiyan instead of their true history of which they are either ashamed either ignorant.

The same reason they downplay aspects of Benin history they can't steal as theirs. Same reason they will continue to hold on to the Oduduwa fairytale because it's a gateway for them to write themselves into Benin history and whitewash their historical pasts.

Any reasonable people would have by now disassociated themselves from Benin historical past because of the amount of work we have done here on nairaland to prove that there was absolutely no connections between Benin and Ife before 1897. They have refused to dissociate themselves from Benin history because to do so will amounts to historical suicide.

Take the Oduduwa myth out of their history and see how it fails apart.

The historical romance between Benin and Ife only lasted in the reigns of Oba Eweka 2 and Oba Akenzua 2 who were just recovering from the brutal defeat by the British and very hostile anti Benin British Nigeria and needed all the support they can get in the new political realities/order in then Nigeria. The romance hits the rock from the reign of Oba Erediawa and Oba Ewuare 2 have maintained his father's position on Oduduwa, I don't see any future change in the current position on Oduduwa.

Back to Ajayi Crowder

Ajayi Crowder as a missionary, saw the reigns of three Benin Obas starting from 1843 when he returned to Nigeria and opened a mission in Abeokuta.

Further more on Ajayi Crowder:

Crowther began translating the Bible into Yoruba and compiling a Yoruba dictionary. In 1843, his grammar book, on which he had begun working during the Niger expedition, was published. A Yoruba version of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer followed later. Crowther also compiled A Vocabulary of the Yoruba Language,[16] including a large number of local proverbs, published in London in 1852.

He also began codifying other languages. Following the British Niger Expeditions of 1854 and 1857, Crowther, assisted by a young Igbo interpreter named Simon Jonas, produced a primer for the Igbo language in 1857. He published one for the Nupe language in 1860, and a full grammar and vocabulary of Nupe in 1864.[17]

Crowther had become a close associate and friend of Captain James Pinson Labulo Davies, an influential politician, mariner, philanthropist and industrialist in colonial Lagos.[18] The two men collaborated on social initiatives in Lagos, such as the founding of The Academy (a social and cultural center for public enlightenment) on 24 October 1866. Crowther was the first patron and Captain J.P.L Davies was the first president.[19]

Back to Benin/Ife fabrications:

As can been seen above, Ajayi Crowder, an educated returnee former slave who travelled and worked across Nigeria during the reigns if three Oba of Benin, Oba Osemwende, Oba Adolo and Oba Ovonramwen (1843 -1891), 48 years never linked Benin history to Ife despite himself doing a lot of work on the advancement of the Yoruba race.

Why did Ajayi Crowder not write about
Benin/Ife relationship during his 48 years of missionary works in Nigeria.

The simple reason is there wasn't such relationship.

If there was Benin/Ife relationship, Ajayi Crowder who worked as a missionary in Nigeria for 48 years (1843 - 1891) during the reigns of (Oba Osemwende 1816-1848), (Oba Adolo 1848 -1888) and (Oba Ovonramwen 1888 -1914) would have mentioned it in his writings.

I mainly concentrated on the missionary life of Ajayi Crowder from when he returned to Nigeria in 1843. Ajayi Crowder was said to have been born in Nigeria in 1809 before he was taken into slavery.

From 1809 to 1891 when Ajayi Crowder was born and died, was a period of 81 years, in this period, Benin saw the reigns of five Obas,

1. Oba Obanosa(About 1804AD-1816AD)
2. Oba Ogbebo(About 1816AD-1816AD)
3. Oba Osemwende (About 1816AD-1848)
4. Oba Adolor (About 1848AD-1888AD)
5. Oba Ovoranmwen (1888AD-1914AD)

If there was Benin/Ife relationship during this period, why didn't Ajayi Crowder write about it in his 48 years of writing in Nigeria.

Apart from Ajayi Crowder who was an educated Nigeria who did a lot of writings, there were also numerous European in Nigeria during these periods who also wrote extensively on Yoruba and Benin history, why did they omit Benin/Ife relationship if indeed there was one.

The invention of Benin/Yoruba relationship as one people started after the fall of Benin in 1897. This is the simple reason you will not see any record of Benin/Ife relationship before 1897.

Stoplying:
I wonder, sincerely. Common sitting arrangements for a group photo in the british consulate has turned into "ranking exercise".
Meanwhile history is still available for all to see:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llporKrPsbU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2hU-ibkPfg



Please kindly help me locate one of these 4 things:

1) ife empire
2) bight of ife
3) bight of yoruba
4) ife battle against britain

These are phd questions for primary school students. Well, I wait for genius amongst them for the answers.

Stoplying:
This is their usual trademark. They have to defend their predetermined conclusion irrespective of the actual facts, they must therefore make contradictory statements because you can't prove a lie within a non contradictory theory.

One of the reasons I stopped talking to some of these yoruba lie peddlars is that I have actually talked to them in the passed, I kept correcting their lies and obvious ignorant statements only for them to keep offering more lies and ignorant statements. I prove my claims, and they still think it is open for debate, basically we had a discussion with no end since the yoruba were mot following logics.

I had a choice between living my life or talking to a yoruba lie peddlar everyday all day until I am old and blind. The thing is when people don't follow logics while talking to you, you need to ignore them. I used to object to the idea of not talking to people whom are less educated than myself, because I believe in the democratisation of knowledge, but given the current crop of yoruba dogma driven, disrespectful and delusional people, I had to adjust and limit my contacts with yoruba people to those who have a masters degree or a PhD.

Besides, talking to an ignorant person whose arrogance make him believe he is at your level (whereas he isn't even at the level of your worse students) is incredibly annoying, you just feel that you are literally insulting yourself by entertaining such an individual and each ignorant statement of that person feels like you are engaging an ape in a discussion (not a good feeling).

The bigotry from some of these people is unbelievable. They first argued that Benin didn't have the means to be in Lagos as early as 1603 let alone the 1500s, some even argued that Benin would have had to travel through territories controlled by Ijebus, which according to them would have been impossible.

Toda they conceded that Benin was already well established in Lagos in 1500s, but that Benin literally beg the aboriginal inhabitants for a piece of land to settle in.

Benin that was already building fortified military fortresses with residents soldiers, and walled garrisons that can only be breached and penetrated with help of European made canons as early as the 1500s, will be begging for land? From whom?

At this period in Benin history, the 1500s, the Benin literally believe that the Oba of Benin owns all lands and all body of water that are accessible to the Benin people. This is why when Benin move into any land of interest, they lord it over and any traditional ruler that protest are beheaded and replaced.

Benin history is too well established to be affected by side notes, subjective opinions born out of ignorance, malice and jealousy.

When I first presented the 1603 eyewitness historical account of Benin ownership of Lagos little over a year ago, it was initially dismissed as a lie, they argued that Benin was nowhere close to Lagos as early as 1603. They called the eyewitness historical accounts a hogwash.

The same ignorant people are now the ones doing lengthy writeup on it after studying the narrative for over a year. They realised that this amongst several other eyewitness historical accounts of classical Benin can't just be discounted by ignoramus, so inserting their bias subjective opinions into what was clearly written in English is their best alternatives. to even think that most of the audience can't read the relevant passages and comprehend for themselves what was written without an ethnic bigots inputs shows the height of their delusion.

Someone that said the 1603 eyewitness historical accounts was a lie over a year ago is now writing opinion filled gibberish as if this will change the actual historical accounts. I hope audience can see how these sets of people have been writing their subjected bias opinions into Benin centuries old eyewitness historical accounts.

Stoplying:
The significance of a sitting arrangement in a group photo of leaders is non existent except in the minds of imbeciles. When leaders of independent countries take group photos, does their position in the photo imply a certain ranking amongst them ?

When Japan's prime minister stands behind Canada's prime minister, does that mean Canada's prime minister outranks Japan's prime minister ?
In a classroom photo, do students sitting in the front outrank students standing in the back ? All this is just a show of low self-esteem, the yoruba seek validation so bad that they are boasting of the fact the oni of ifa was sitted closest to prince Charles. How self-esteem can get a slow as that ? Only in nigeria.

All this illiterate talk which has become the standard on nairaland is annoying. It feels like most people here are children.

The sitting arrangements in a photo give them satisfaction and sense of accomplishments in the absence of glorious historical heritage compared to their Edo neighbours.

Benin had over 400 years of documented history stating from 1400s to 1897 and Yoruba had atleast 70 years of eyewitness documented history up till 1897. Unless you can show the readers were Benin/Ife relationship was either mentioned in Yoruba or Benin history up till 1890 other than your fitctional Ogane that was supposedly mentioned once in the 1400s, it will be a complete waste of my time to continue to reply an obvious troll like yourself.

Provide the evidence of Benin/Ife relationship, mentions of Oranmiyan, Ife and Oduduwa in pre 1890 Benin history or continue to wallow in your lies.

Cheers.

TAO11:
Ogané is not even a kiNgDoM. So, I wonder how it could then have been a mythical kingdom.

On the other hand, Ogané is a Portuguese rendering of the title/name of a king. And the information was provided by a representative of the Benin king.

The information was collected from Benin by differen Europeans across different centuries.

Prester John is a different thing entirely. Prester John is a lost Christian figure in early Europe, the stories of whom the Europeans kept to heart. Whether he is a fiction or not is his problem.

Whenever the Europeans heard of a power king in a part of Africa, they quickly go to make inquiries to see if this real Afrcan king is their own lost Prester John.

One of such real African kings whom they encountered (or heard tell of) is the king of Ife who was known (and is still sometimes known) in Benin as Oghene.

It was from Benin that the Europeans heard of the Ogehen [n'Uhe] whom they transcribed as Ogané.

Clarity drives liars insane.

PS:
And he (Ogané) has long been identified by historians -- he is the Ooni of Ife.

According to you the Benin told the Portuguese about the king of Ife in the 1400s, yet none of the Europeans who have been looking for their Prester John bothered to travel to Ife for 400 years to verify this Ife powerful king Benin talked about.

The European continuously visited Benin for 400 years and even establishing European stations in Benin and were not once curious enough to visit the founder and supposedly more powerful king of Ife.

Benin was called great Benin by Europeans, international body of water the bight of Benin was named after her by European cartographer, a departure from naming most great Africa landmarks after European cities, citizens and monarchs.

Yet you want everyone to believe Ife that the Europeans managed to visit after 1824 was the mythical powerful king Ogane that was supposedly talked about in Benin in the 1400s.

Even if Ogane existed, the description given by the so called Benin informant doesn't match, the name of Ife, location, direction and distance of Ife from Benin. It's a shame that this is all you can hold on to as evidence of Benin/Ife relationship pre 1890.

It's a good thing people are reading the demolishing of the Benin/Ife relationship fabrications.

Stoplying:
I would like to add that Ogané was actually a mythical kingdom led by prester john (a mythical figure), the whole thing was made up by crusaders in search of a mythical powerful christian king.

They looked for ogané in several regions of the world.

You are right, that's why no one can locate it.

gregyboy:
The binis who decided tp soil their history for political benefit nkor......

And they decided not to retrace such fraudulent history back to default and correct it


I dont blame the yorubas for taking advantage if not that Tao11 is ab obsessed bitch we wouldn't have gone this deep in our history to find truth we will probably still believing on the made up history

Don't forget the political situation after the British destroyed Benin, stole her artefacts and depot Oba Ovonramwen to Calabar, there was no Oba in Benin from 1897 till 1914 when Oba Ovonramwen joined his ancestors. Oba Eweka 2, had to adjust to the new political reality of the time by aligning with those the British have elevated.

The Yoruba was desperate to unite themselves under one umbrella. Ife and Benin was very important in their unification project and the Oba of Benin from Eweka 2 to Akenzua were comfortable with this initial attempt to unify western Nigeria through Benin/Ife connection.

Oba Erediawa was not comfortable with the mutilation of Benin history that followed and told the world he wasn't Yoruba and his son Oba Ewuare 2 have reaffirmed this in his coronation speech to the world.

As of today, both late Oba Erediawa and Oba Ewuare have reaffirmed the position that Benin Obas had no Yoruba ancestry. There is also no historical evidence to support Oba of Benin having Yoruba ancestry.

gregyboy:
You want her to show you evidence.. You want her to use her hands to end her career

The last time i asked for an exact quotation from the Portuguese who visited lagos in 1472
And named lagos lago de Curamo,

She told me the quote hasn't been digitalizsd yet... It was so funny to grasp but at thesame time i felt pity for her, something tells me we are chatting with a very ugly hopeless lady that finds relieve trolling with niggas on the internet

Ajayi Crowder was probably the first Yoruba to mention Benin in his writings in the 1870s but never mentioned Benin/Ife relationship.

By the 1870s Yoruba returnee slaves with western education had started writing about Yoruba and it wasn't until after the fall of Benin in 1897 that another Yoruba former slave, Samuel Johnson linked Benin with Yoruba in a way that suggested that they were the same people.

Ajayi Crowder travelled through the Benin areas to Asaba and to the east in his missionary works and wrote about the people. It was in his writings in 1875 that he mentioned the people of Asaba tracing their origin to Benin but said there were Igbo who then recently migrated from the east to joined them, whilst Ajayi Crowder was in Asaba, he wrote that the people still used some Benin words.

Those that argued that Asaba original inhabitants were from the east, I have requested for eyewitness historical evidence earlier than 1875 to prove their claim, I am still waiting just the way I have been waiting for the Yoruba to provide anything that support Benin/Ife relationship earlier than 1890.

If Benin had any relationship with Ife, Ajayi Crowder would have written about it before the fall of Benin in 1897.

I repeat Oduduwa was simply a mythical figure , this is the reason if you asked five people, 2 Edo and 3 Yoruba, the origin of Oduduwa, you are likely to get the following replies:

1. He was from Saudi Arabia
2. He was from Egypt
3. He was originally from Ife
4. He was from Benin
5. He is a myth

Anybody that doubt me should carry out a Google search on the origin of Oduduwa.

Ife wasn't Organe

The Ogane that was referred to by the Portuguese in the 15th century was described to be in a location east of Benin, Ife is west, the Ogane was said to be a distance of about 900 miles, Ife is about 174 miles from Benin, Organe was said to have a travelling time from Benin of 20 moons (20 months), Benin to Ife couldn't possibly have been travelled in 20 months because by 1603, 2 messages were sent from Lagos garrison to Benin daily and Lagos is further away from Benin in distance compared to Ife.

The reason no one have been able to locate this Organe written about in the 15th century Benin history is because it was argued that it probably didn't exist.

There is absolutely nothing in name Of Ogane, distance, direction of travel and location from Benin city that slightly resembles Ife. Yoruba always want to equate Organe to Ife because of their desperation to link Ife to Benin by all means.

If Benin really have relationship with Ife between 1170 to 1897, a period of 800 years of which over 400 years of it was documented by eyewitnesses on the Benin side and at least 70 years of the 800 years documented on the Yoruba side stating from 1824, why was Ife, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa not mentioned once in either the 400 years Benin documented eyewitness historical accounts or Yoruba 70 years eyewitness historical accounts.

One of the few places in Yoruba land that was never mentioned in Benin history until after the fall of Benin in 1897 is Ife. Most towns and rulers in eastern Yoruba, the Alaafin and Lagos were all mentioned but not Ife, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa.

How could Benin have had interactions with Ife in the way the Yoruba want everyone believe and yet not a single mentioned in the historical books.

Benin was a very active kingdom both in war and traditions, if there was an interaction with Ife, it would have be mentioned severally throughout the periods of written records starting from late 1400s to late 1890s, but nothing was said about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan until after the fall of Benin in 1897.

No aspects of Benin lives was left undocumented by early Europeans, the number of roads in the city, the type of food, trade, traditional institutions, religion, rituals, physical descriptions of the people, architecture, government, area of influence, military installations or garrisons throughout the empire, military strength, internal civil wars, area conquered, etc. In the over 400 years of Benin written history, there is not a single mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan the supposed founders of the kingdom.

Yet TAO11 wants everyone to believe Organe was Ife. Even if she is right how come Organe was only mentioned once in late 15th century? This is because Organe wasn't Ife.

Yoruba are not the only people that claim to have founded the Benin kingdom, several other tribes have made several similar claims ranging from being the aboriginal inhabitants of the kingdom to even laying claim to the Oba himself just the way the Yoruba have been doing since the fall of Benin kingdom.

Incase the Yoruba don't know, the Igbos also have similar claims of theirs. Some Igbos believe the Oba of Benin was originally from Nri.

The Benin are so sure and confident with themselves that, we will not feel less of ourselves if it turns out the Oba wasn't originally from Benin. Most of us wouldn't care about the origin of the Oba in as far it can be proven with historical evidence.

The problem with the Yoruba claim is lack of evidence to back up the claims.

Like I mentioned to TAO11 before and I will repeat again, just show us evidence of Benin/Ife relationship as late as 1890, just seven years before the British invasion of Benin. Let's even forget the period 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800 - 1890. This is a long period of time. Just give me something in 1890 that suggests Benin/Ife relationship.

There is nothing unique about Yoruba fabricated Benin/Ife relationship claims, rather it's the uniqueness of Benin in world history that is prompting all these claims.

We can not pretend to know it all, any tribes that lay claim to Benin must provide historically backed evidence to be taken seriously.

People may be tempted to laugh off the Igbo claim, but don't forget this is how the Yoruba claim began and the similarities between both claims are clear enough.

One can't discount future intellectual fight between Yoruba and Igbo on the historical ownership of Benin. As times goes by, Benin history ages like old wine in a bottle that everybody will want to own. This is more so because of the nearly 500 years documented historical gap between Benin and the other two tribes of Yoruba and Igbo.

Below is a similar Igbo claim.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4xXMdK8HYQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytmPqtA65YY

"The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36

Asibong Okon was referring to this

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620

The Ooni was politically elevated above the Alaafin after 1824.

gregyboy:
To the future generation reading this,

That is a colonial arrangement it wasnt done by reality before colonization the sitting arrangement was done by favouritsm and population


If it was done on historical ground only the oba of benin would be sitting with prince Philip

Apart from the Oba of Benin, every other traditional rulers in that photo was selected, sometimes by politicians. The only one that is born king is the Oba of Benin.

You are right, the sitting arrangements was purely political. When the British arrived Yoruba land in 1824, they met the Alaafin on ground as the leader of Yoruba people but the Alaafin wasn't even in that photo. The Ooni is a political Oba.

Christistruth00:

I am not sure you comprehend my reply to you. I challenged any one of you to present evidence of Benin having brotherly relationship with Yoruba before 1890, you are submitting 1937 and 1968 fabrications.

The nature of Benin relationship with Yoruba before the fall of Benin in 1897 was purely that of coloniser, Benin simply colonised Yoruba land.

The stories of Benin being related to Yoruba started after 1890. Go back and provide evidences earlier than 1890 or wait for your sister and let see what lies she comes up with this time.

Christistruth00:
Welcome TAO

Those who insist on lies will be shamed by it

So Izoduwa is even a 1978 Fabrication!!!


But how can people be so full of Pride to reject their own illustrious History for a Pack of lies

No wonder Oranmiyan called their Land Ile Ibinu

Even Oranmiyan their father self in anger they have changed his name to Omonoyan

In anger the People of Ile Ibinu went further and have changed Oduduwa to Izoduwa

What is Vexing them to destroy their own History ?

I understand your pains. The Oduduwa myth is one very important myths the Yoruba desperately want to believe to be true, but unfortunately, it's what it is, a fabrication born out of myth without historical evidence backing it.

Benin/Ife history was concocted after the fall of Benin empire in 1897.

There were no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in the eyewitness documented Benin history between 1400s to 1800s. I have severally challenged TAO11 to show such evidence but I suspect I may have to wait until the chicken grows teeth before she can find such evidence.

In summary:

1. There wasn't Benin/Ife relationship in Benin history until 1897, after the fall of Benin empire.

2. Between 1400s to 1890 vast parts of Yoruba land was either directly or indirectly ruled, colonised or influenced by Benin. The other parts such as Ilorin was under the Fulani.

3. The first time the Europeans visited the hinterland of Yoruba was 1824. The Alaafin of Oyo was the leader of Yoruba people, not the Ooni of Ife.

4. Any history of Yoruba before 1824 largely centred around the coastline of Yoruba not the hinterland.

5. The current Benin/Ife connection is purely political history not back up by historical evidence.

6. There are only two great kingdoms in Nigeria, Benin and Fulani's Sokoto caliphate. Benin dominated the Nigeria space for over 500 years. The Fulani took over in the 1800s and still nominating.

7. The Ooni is not even the spiritual leader of most Yoruba people. The Yoruba people being mostly muslims, the Sultan of Sokoto who have to sight the moon before the commencement of Islamic festivities in Nigeria is the spiritual leader of more than half the population of Yoruba people.

8. Yoruba were once under Benin, today they are under the Fulani.

I know how you guys desperately want the Oba of Benin to be Yoruba, but sorry to break your heart, he is not Yoruba and has no Yoruba ancestry.

The Yoruba are not the only ones claiming the Oba of Benin, the Igbo and Igala also have their claims. We only hear more of the Yoruba claims because you guys are more vocal with your claim.

TAO11 opinions and assumptions doesn't amount to history, I am not interested in any of her shenanigans unless she can show me evidence in either Benin or Yoruba history before 1824 that says the Oba of Benin was related to Yoruba.

Yoruba hinterland eyewitness historical accounts may be relatively young haven't only began in 1824 compared to Benin, there are avalanches of Benin eyewitnesses historical accounts spanning over 400 years for TAO11 and any other Yoruba to research and provide evidences of Benin/Ife relationship before 1824.

No matter how long a lie is told, it can never become truth. Unless you guys can provide historical evidence backing your claims, you guys can continue to wallow in your lies.