TAO12: You’re angry that you’re been flogged with facts.
What else can you do apart from being angry?
Well, you can accept facts and move on, or reject it and stay deluded.
You’ve been leaning towards the second option for years now. Will you someday wake up? May be!
Nothing is impossible for God.
For your information, your Bini ancestors regard the Ooni as some God.
Proof: The Dictionary of Bini Language attached below says that ɔɣɛnɛ [ọghẹnẹ] is God and also “Bini name for the Ooni at Ile Ife.”
The authoritative lexicon also continues to add that: “ɔɣɛnɛ … cf. Yor. ɔɔni”.
In other words, the Bini word ɔɣɛnɛ [ọghẹnẹ] actually derives from the Yoruba ‘name’ Ooni.
Get a grip. ✌
When is the earliest reference to Ooni, I am sure the word or title Ooni didn't even exist in ancient times. Show us prove of when it entered Yoruba lexicon.
TAO12: You’re angry that you’re been flogged with facts.
What else can you do apart from being angry?
Well, you can accept facts and move on, or reject it and stay deluded.
You’ve been leaning towards the second option for years now. Will you someday wake up? May be!
Nothing is impossible for God.
For your information, your Bini ancestors regard the Ooni as some God.
Proof: The Dictionary of Bini Language attached below says that ɔɣɛnɛ [ọghẹnẹ] is God and also “Bini name for the Ooni at Ile Ife.”
The authoritative lexicon also continues to add that: “ɔɣɛnɛ … cf. Yor. ɔɔni”.
In other words, the Bini word ɔɣɛnɛ [ọghẹnẹ] actually derives from the Yoruba ‘name’ Ooni.
Get a grip. ✌
The Yoruba have been writing themselves into Benin history since 1897. Between 1897 and 1960 was particularly terrible. Go to Warri and tell them your Ooni is their God.
Below is the definition of Oghene before the Yoruba corrupted the Benin source.
Cghene, or Oghene, is the supreme god of the Urhobo and Isoko people in southern Nigeria. He is believed to have created the world and all peoples. Oghene is beyond human comprehension and is only known by his actions. Because the god is so distant and unknown, he has no temples or priests and no prayers or sacrifices are offered directly to him.
Oghene has a courier named Oyise, who is referred to as uko Oghene or "messenger of Oghene". Through Oyise, Oghene can be invoked in case of calamity or need.
TAO12: It is not my fault that your ancestors took the Ooni of Ife as some God and incorporated same into your Bini mythology.
Channel your energy into summoning the spirit of ya ancestors.
Peace!
You are now beginning to see the foolishness in your arguments.
For your information:
Oghene 'n' Uhe simply means god (idol) of Ife people just like Ogun is the god of Iro, sango is the god of thunder and Oluku the goddess of the sea. Your Ooni was just a chief priest of Idols.
Ife and Ooni was nothing more than an Oracle that people went to consult, there were and still are many of such Oracles around.
When your head is cleared from whatever you are smoking, read your two submissions on Oghene below, hopefully you and your supporters will see how delusional you are.
In your corrupted Benin mythology below, you agreed that Oghene is the almighty God that created heaven and earth. In your second post you contradict yourself by saying Oghene is Ooni of Ife.
You are basically equating Ooni to God almighty, the creator. TAO11 are you Okay? Which Benin view your Ooni as God?
Oghene 'n' Uhe simply means god (idol) of Ife people just like Ogun is the god of Iro, sango is the god of thunder and Oluku the goddess of the sea. Your Ooni was just a chief priest of Idols.
In the Benin original etymology:
Ife/uhe is not mentioned.
The entire world was filled with water, every human being were in heaven. God almighty ogiene (king of the four elements of life), or Oghene-osa decided to send his children in heaven down to earth, he asked them to choose from certain objects they are going to use when they get to earth. Every other child chose something else, it was only the first Ogiso or Oba of Benin that chose a snail shell containing earth or sand.
When all Oghene children got to earth filled with water, they were all stuck in their canoes with no place to land, then the Ogiso or Oba of Benin poured the contents of his snail shell on a spot which is present day Benin, hence the saying in Benin that Edo orisiagbo (Benin or Edo is the center of the world, where everything on earth began), it's also why early Benin believe that Oba of Benin owns all land on earth.
From the location in Benin where the sand was poured on water, the entire earth began, hence the saying that all other inhabitants are tenants to the Oba of Benin, this is the believe the Benin warrior carry with them when they ventured out to conquered other rulers and collect tributes to the Oba of Benin.
All these changed in 1897 when the British conquered Benin and Yoruba invaded Benin history and began to change the stories in their favour.
Even till today, the words
1. Edo orisiagbon (Benin is the centre of the world/earth) where everything began remains in Benin language and lexicon.
2. Oba niaotor se evbebo (Oba owns all land to Europe and beyond) remains in Benin language and lexicon. Such was the audacity of early Benin that when they first came in contact with early Europeans, they still declared that the Oba of Benin owns all land to Europe and beyond.
Your proximity to Benin from your town in Delta state is too close not to have heard any of these.
My point 2 above is a prove that when Benin came into contact with the white man in the 1400s and declared the white man land as belonging to the Oba of Benin, Benin haven't yet made contact with Ife. If Benin could declare the white man's land as belonging to the Oba of Benin, who was the Ooni or Ife that couldn't be declared Oba of Benin property.
If Benin have such veneration for Ife and Ooni before 1897, why will early Benin declare that the world began in Benin and Oba of Benin owns all land, words we still use till today.
Are you not aware that early Oba of Benin ceded all water body such as the sea, ocean, river etc to the Ogiamen or the nana or Olu of Warri.
Before 1897 the Benin people believe Oba of Benin owns everything, so much so the sea and ocean was ceded to the Olu of Warri. Ogiamen in Benin means king of all the waters on earth.
TAO11: Actually they have a number of conflicting creation myths.
One of them --- with the title "Iso Norho" --- specifically mentions Ife as the center of the world from where Edo, Ijaw, and Igbo left to their present location.
It talks about pouring sand over the primordial water-filled earth, about chain from heaven, etc. very similar to the Yoruba creation myth.
I will cite reference to it soon.
Modified --- see below as promised:
"The myth of the pouring sky ("Iso Norho" )
The most popular surviving non-dynastic myth of a common Edo origin is that of Iso Norho, ... .It puts the emergence of the Benin and other -speaking people in a primordial centre, Uhe, a place where problems are heaped before Oghene --- the God of creation --- ... .Uhe is said to have been occupied by Olukumi ("Yoruba" ), Igbon ("Igbo" ) and Uzon ("Ijo" ).
The myth begins by naming Oghene ( God" ) as the father of Iso ("the Sky" ), Ason ("Night" ) and Avan ("Daylight" ). Out of the three children of Oghene, only the eldest son, Iso ("Sky" ), had children; Ame ("Water" ) and Oto ("Earth" ). The children of Oto were Igbon ("Igbo" ), Olukumi ("Yoruba " and Idu ("Edo ". ... .But Oghene did not want the children to suffer undue hardship. By means of a chain he poured sand on the flood water to form dry land for their inhabitants. Thus Uhe ("i.e. old Ife" ) was formed by divine ("Oghene's" ) providence. ...
Idu's children ("Akka, Efa, Emechi" ) had to migrate from Uhe to the present site of Benin City --- then called Ubinu --- where they displaced a group of original settlers, Ivbirinwineko ("dwarfs from the spirit world" ). Memories of these original settlers are preserved in Edo songs and folklore."
Reference: Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs: Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, pp.312-313.
TAO12: Lol. You’re clearly not familiar with this discussion and the primary sources. Let me break it down.
Yes the Portuguese made contacts with Benin in the late-1400s/early-1500s.
Yes they reported in their writings that they were told about the most powerful monarch — whom they (the Portuguese) transcribed as Ogané and as Hooguanee.
The Bini informants also gave them some descriptions of practices at Oghene’s court among other details.
Yes the same original Bini word (Oghene) is also used for “God” among some Edoid groups.
But the word (Oghene) flowed from the Bini to these Edoid groups; and it is originally a title of the Ooni of Ife whom the Binis of old viewed as some kind of God.
Hence the incorporation of the title Oghoni (classical Yoruba) — Oghene in Bini — as an attribute of Osa.
See the dictionary of the Bini language attached below.
Culture › Re: Th by samuk: 9:28am On Aug 28, 2021*. Modified: 11:11am On Aug 28, 2021
UGBE634: Ogiene- this is certainly what it means or should be. One thing is certain, and even by that dictionary, The first meaning of the word Oghene made reference to God first then the second was the Ooni. Ogiene in this sense meant the controller of everything under the earth Eriwmin-spirit, Agbon-earth, Amen-Water, Ijuwvu-this one might mean death. I am not so sure by his writings. The primary made it clear that the first and primary purpose of that word was the almighty supreme God. When a Bini man make mention of Oghene, Ooni would naturally not come to his mind what would come to his mind is almighty God, he would have to add Uhe for it to make meaning regarding the Ooni. This clearly shows that it is what the Binis used to regard the Ooni who they later came came in contact with. And with the Ooni of Ife, it is specific, Oghene'n'Uhe means the God of Ife not the God at Ife. And it was because of his priestly role. Beyond the Urhobo and the Bini, the Etsako and The Isokos used it too, and out of these four Edo group Only the Binis used it in relation to Ife because of they came in contact with Her and you must add Uhe for it to make any meaning in relation to Ife. You can't just say Oghene and the Bini man would go thinking you are talking about the Ooni what this would only mean is that it is the Bini way of describing the Ooni of Ife who she later came in contact with Need I say that Urhobo,Isoko Etsako relationship with Benin predate the Benin relationship with Ife as they are of the very same stock and the Urhobo name for Benin Aka predate Ibinu. Need I say that the spread of the word Oghene among these Edo groups with ancient relationships already destroyed the fact that it was borrowed. Because only the Binis refer to the Ooni of Ife as the Oghene'n'Uhe. It couldn't be Oga as Oga itself is a recent entry to the Bini language.
You are right. This Benin/Ife story started during the reign of Oba Eweka 2. Before then, most Edo groups including the Urhobos used Oghene or Oghene-osa for God almighty in heaven, the creator of heaven and earth.
Oghene 'n' Uhe simply means the god of Ife people. The Uhe specifies the location he is god. There are many gods including the Oluku who was believe to be the goddess of the sea. Ogun, the god of Iron, Isangon, the god of thunder, etc.
Oghene-Osa is the God almighty in heaven all humanity prays to. Even in the dictionary they are trying to use to deceive themselves, the distinction is made.
The number 4, Ene have other significance in Benin such as the 4 market days, I am sure Benin don't share this culture with Ife/Yoruba.
Ancient Benin kingdom was far bigger than the present day Benin. Benin alliance with Ife began in 1897 after the fall of Benin, this is the reason other Edoid or ancient Benin groups are alien to the Benin/Ife relationship. It's strange to the Urhobos and other groups. It's even strange to Esan people, this is to tell you how recent the Benin/Ife connection is.
Yoruba strategies is to corrupt the source which is Benin and other Benin descendants tribes get infected with their revisionist history. But they are now getting stiff resistance from us that know our history.
Culture › Re: Th by samuk: 8:34am On Aug 28, 2021*. Modified: 5:44pm On Aug 28, 2021
RedboneSmith: Yeeeeeeaaaa. The Yoruba etymology makes more sense. Sorry
You don't have to sneak in out of the thread. Your full engagement is needed. What you call Yoruba etymology is a corrupted Benin etymology by the Yoruba. In the original Benin etymology in which Benin share the name of God almighty, Oghene, the creator of heaven and earth, with other Edoid groups such as Urhobo, Etsako, Esan etc. Reference wasn't made to Uhe or Ife.
Below is the Yoruba corrupted Benin etymology shared by your friend TAO11. Even in this corrupted form Oghene remains God almighty the creator of the sky, water, etc. Unless you want to tell me you believe the Ooni is the creator of the sky, water, etc.
In the Benin original etymology:
The entire world was filled with water, every human being were in heaven. God almighty ogiene (king of the four elements of life), or Oghene-osa decided to send his children in heaven down to earth, he asked them to choose from certain objects they are going to use when they get to earth. Every other child chose something else, it was only the first Ogiso or Oba of Benin that chose a snail shell containing earth or sand.
When all Oghene children got to earth filled with water, they were all stuck in their canoes with no place to land, then the Ogiso or Oba of Benin poured the contents of his snail shell on a spot which is present day Benin, hence the saying in Benin that Edo orisiagbo (Benin or Edo is the center of the world, where everything on earth began), it's also why early Benin believe that Oba of Benin owns all land on earth.
From the location in Benin where the sand was poured on water, the entire earth began, hence the saying that all other inhabitants are tenants to the Oba of Benin, this is the believe the Benin warrior carry with them when they ventured out to conquered other rulers and collect tributes to the Oba of Benin.
All these changed in 1897 when the British conquered Benin and Yoruba invaded Benin history and began to change the stories in their favour.
Even till today, the words
1. Edo orisiagbon (Benin is the centre of the world/earth) where everything began remains in Benin language and lexicon.
2. Oba niaotor se evbebo (Oba owns all land to Europe and beyond) remains in Benin language and lexicon. Such was the audacity of early Benin that when they first came in contact with early Europeans, they still declared that the Oba of Benin owns all land to Europe and beyond.
Your proximity to Benin from your town in Delta state is too close not to have heard any of these.
My point 2 above is a prove that when Benin came into contact with the white man in the 1400s and declared the white man land as belonging to the Oba of Benin, Benin haven't yet made contact with Ife. If Benin could declare the white man's land as belonging to the Oba of Benin, who was the Ooni or Ife that couldn't be declared Oba of Benin property.
If Benin have such veneration for Ife and Ooni before 1897, why will early Benin declare that the world began in Benin and Oba of Benin owns all land, words we still use till today.
Are you not aware that early Oba of Benin ceded all water body such as the sea, ocean, river etc to the Ogiamen or the nana or Olu of Warri.
Before 1897 the Benin people believe Oba of Benin owns everything, so much so the sea and ocean was ceded to the Olu of Warri. Ogiamen in Benin means king of all the waters on earth.
Benin history is too deep for invaders to be able to steal.
Benin history is imbedded in the Edo language, this is why when historians write fairytales from either Benin myths or history, it can easily be spotted. We use to laugh such garbage of history off until will realised that there are people outside of Benin that actually believe them.
This is not the only Benin myth of creation, there are others.
There is a saying in Benin that aghasedo, Edo yerhe. When you get to Benin, Benin is still far from you. Even those in Benin, don't fully understand, the myths, culture, traditions and history of Benin let alone someone writing gibberish from afar.
Benin was too well established in tradition and culture for the Yoruba or anyone to teach us who we are, it's the height of delusion.
So you guys believe that you need a post 1897 Ibadan influenced dictionary to tell the Oba of Benin and his people that they are Yoruba. Some people are very funny.
Yoruba and other history revisionist may have stolen and reversed many aspects of Benin history in their favour but the Edo language haven't changed and Benin history and myths are imbedded in it. If not for nairaland, most Benin don't read their history in books and writings.
The British deliberately made the trial of Oba Ovonramwen a public show of humiliation in 1897 to disabuse the minds of Benin people of their long heard believes about the Oba. Before 1897 the Oba of Benin was only second to God almighty, he was seen as God's representative on earth, God in human flesh, some still believe he is. Ife/Ooni came into Benin history after 1897.
TAO11: Actually they have a number of conflicting creation myths.
One of them --- with the title "Iso Norho" --- specifically mentions Ife as the center of the world from where Edo, Ijaw, and Igbo left to their present location.
It talks about pouring sand over the primordial water-filled earth, about chain from heaven, etc. very similar to the Yoruba creation myth.
I will cite reference to it soon.
Modified --- see below as promised:
"The myth of the pouring sky ("Iso Norho" )
The most popular surviving non-dynastic myth of a common Edo origin is that of Iso Norho, ... .It puts the emergence of the Benin and other -speaking people in a primordial centre, Uhe, a place where problems are heaped before Oghene --- the God of creation --- ... .Uhe is said to have been occupied by Olukumi ("Yoruba" ), Igbon ("Igbo" ) and Uzon ("Ijo" ).
The myth begins by naming Oghene ( God" ) as the father of Iso ("the Sky" ), Ason ("Night" ) and Avan ("Daylight" ). Out of the three children of Oghene, only the eldest son, Iso ("Sky" ), had children; Ame ("Water" ) and Oto ("Earth" ). The children of Oto were Igbon ("Igbo" ), Olukumi ("Yoruba " and Idu ("Edo ". ... .But Oghene did not want the children to suffer undue hardship. By means of a chain he poured sand on the flood water to form dry land for their inhabitants. Thus Uhe ("i.e. old Ife" ) was formed by divine ("Oghene's" ) providence. ...
Idu's children ("Akka, Efa, Emechi" ) had to migrate from Uhe to the present site of Benin City --- then called Ubinu --- where they displaced a group of original settlers, Ivbirinwineko ("dwarfs from the spirit world" ). Memories of these original settlers are preserved in Edo songs and folklore."
Reference: Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs: Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, pp.312-313.
For the above NONSENSE I score you 2 outta 10. Honestly, you are truly a WEED smoking goat.
Every 14 year old kid knows about the lander brothers, but your crack smoking WEED head knows nothing about Kongo River and the voyages made by several explorers and the years.
If Maps of Timbuktu in Mali, Sosso in Burkina Faso were drawn as early as 1375 and the myths of Niger/ Kongo Rivers having a common source drawing many explorers long before Mungo Park( he never traced it he died half way) was born could lure men, what then could have stop men wanting to see the Suzerain of the Oba of the Benin kingdom. The king with no army and "eyes dare not see" for over 400 years?
O[gh]oni Dominion, the latinized name of Ogane is more Yoruba than I expected what a wonder. Plz I want to see this map with immediate alacrity, a suzerain that doesn't exist in the timeline of Africa , West Africa, Nigeria only in a bush in southwest Nigeria brought to limelight by a politician and dubious wannabes village self acclaimed historians seeking to be relevant in African history. If the first University was cited outside of Ibadan do you think we will be having this jargons of a chitchat.
The Oba was known in the Royals court of Europe and discussed, till tomorrow the Royal family in Lagos can only dissuss the Oba and not the Ooni ditto Onitsha, Warri, Agbor and numerous tribes. The British sacked Benin while Abeokuta Ibadan and Ilorin rolled over not a mention of ile Ife was ever made anywhere not to talk of any " eyes dare not see" king that you WEED smoking goats claim to have been reported in the courts/ cities of Europe for over 400years.
The Europeans that met with Chiefs in Badagry, EKO, Abeokuta, Ijebu Ibadan never reported any "eyes dare not see" King. In the entire Benin Kingdom nobody knew of such nonsense even the very next door neighborhood of Modakeke till tomorrow don't and never knew of such IMMORTAL king, it is in the court of the Oba of Benin whose kingdom the world knows that it was only reported for 400years Continue smoking your weed and be spinning history to comfort yourself
My brother you are harsh, if you continue like this you are going to reduced TAO11 to tears, that is if it has not already happened. Look at how you just walked all over her pet project like a piece of cake.
All her hours of research, copy and paste gone like a smoke. At this rate, she may not last long on nairaland, if she derail who are we going to be using to have fun on nairaland.
Uhe[/b]in Benin means female reproductive part or virginal.
In Benin methodology, it's believed that [b]Uhe is the passage from which God almighty sends his children to the world.
Uhe was never a geographical location in Benin myths of creation, it was certainly not Ife.
In Benin methodology the female goddess of Olokun is the greatest of all deities and gods, she is the goddess of fertility and rebirth.
How did Uhe became Ife.
After the British destroyed Benin in 1897 and Oba Ovonramwen was banished to Calabar, the British wanted to end the dynasty and replaced it with their own appointed representative in the person of Agho Obaseki, great grandfather of the current governor of Edo state. The Benin people resisted insisting that only a prince can become a legitimate Oba in Benin.
Oba Ovonramwen heir, who later became Oba Eweka 2 was in a difficult position and sort alliances with the Alaafin and Ooni of Ife who the British have favoured. This is how Benin former myths were edited/modified to accommodate the Yorubas, Uhe(Virginal/ female birth canal) became Ife in the new created Benin/Ife fairytale.
In the first version of Benin/Ife relationship that was created from Benin myths of creation:
1. Uhe (female birth canal) became Ife.
2. Oba of Benin retains his initial position in the Benin myths as the most senior son to God almighty but this time he was the most senior heir to Oduduwa through Oranmiyan. The Alaafin was the second child to Oranmiyan and the Ooni was their chief priest.
By the reign of Oba Akenzua 2, the Yorubas have modified this myths by elevating the Ooni from chief priest to become the head of all Yoruba Obas. Oba Akenzua 2 was not comfortable with this new arrangement and took his people and mid-west out of the then Western region.
As you can see below, the Benin/Ife relationship was evolved from one of Benin myths of creations, it has nothing to do with reality and real history. This is why there are no historical evidence to support it till 1897 when the it was created.
TAO11 in are limited knowledge of Benin methodology equates Uhe to Ife
TAO11: Actually they have a number of conflicting creation myths.
One of them --- with the title "Iso Norho" --- specifically mentions Ife as the center of the world from where Edo, Ijaw, and Igbo left to their present location.
It talks about pouring sand over the primordial water-filled earth, about chain from heaven, etc. very similar to the Yoruba creation myth.
I will cite reference to it soon.
Modified --- see below as promised:
"The myth of the pouring sky ("Iso Norho" )
The most popular surviving non-dynastic myth of a common Edo origin is that of Iso Norho, ... .It puts the emergence of the Benin and other -speaking people in a primordial centre, Uhe, a place where problems are heaped before Oghene --- the God of creation --- ... .Uhe is said to have been occupied by Olukumi ("Yoruba" ), Igbon ("Igbo" ) and Uzon ("Ijo" ).
The myth begins by naming Oghene ( God" ) as the father of Iso ("the Sky" ), Ason ("Night" ) and Avan ("Daylight" ). Out of the three children of Oghene, only the eldest son, Iso ("Sky" ), had children; Ame ("Water" ) and Oto ("Earth" ). The children of Oto were Igbon ("Igbo" ), Olukumi ("Yoruba " and Idu ("Edo ". ... .But Oghene did not want the children to suffer undue hardship. By means of a chain he poured sand on the flood water to form dry land for their inhabitants. Thus Uhe ("i.e. old Ife" ) was formed by divine ("Oghene's" ) providence. ...
Idu's children ("Akka, Efa, Emechi" ) had to migrate from Uhe to the present site of Benin City --- then called Ubinu --- where they displaced a group of original settlers, Ivbirinwineko ("dwarfs from the spirit world" ). Memories of these original settlers are preserved in Edo songs and folklore."
Reference: Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs: Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, pp.312-313.
Uhe[/b]in Benin means female reproductive part or virginal.
In Benin methodology, it's believed that [b]Uhe is the passage from which God almighty sends his children to the world.
Uhe was never a geographical location in Benin myths of creation, it was certainly not Ife.
In Benin methodology the female goddess of Olokun is the greatest of all deities and gods, she is the goddess of fertility and rebirth.
How did Uhe became Ife.
After the British destroyed Benin in 1897 and Oba Ovonramwen was banished to Calabar, the British wanted to end the dynasty and replaced it with their own appointed representative in the person of Agho Obaseki, great grandfather of the current governor of Edo state. The Benin people resisted insisting that only a prince can become a legitimate Oba in Benin.
Oba Ovonramwen heir, who later became Oba Eweka 2 was in a difficult position and sort alliances with the Alaafin and Ooni of Ife who the British have favoured. This is how Benin former myths were edited/modified to accommodate the Yorubas, Uhe(Virginal/ female birth canal) became Ife in the new created Benin/Ife fairytale.
In the first version of Benin/Ife relationship that was created from Benin myths of creation:
1. Uhe (female birth canal) became Ife.
2. Oba of Benin retains his initial position in the Benin myths as the most senior son to God almighty but this time he was the most senior heir to Oduduwa through Oranmiyan. The Alaafin was the second child to Oranmiyan and the Ooni was their chief priest.
By the reign of Oba Akenzua 2, the Yorubas have modified this myths by elevating the Ooni from chief priest to become the head of all Yoruba Obas. Oba Akenzua 2 was not comfortable with this new arrangement and took his people and mid-west out of the then Western region.
As you can see below, the Benin/Ife relationship was evolved from one of Benin myths of creations, it has nothing to do with reality and real history. This is why there are no historical evidence to support it till 1897 when the it was created.
TAO11 in are limited knowledge of Benin methodology equates Uhe to Ife
TAO11: Actually they have a number of conflicting creation myths.
One of them --- with the title "Iso Norho" --- specifically mentions Ife as the center of the world from where Edo, Ijaw, and Igbo left to their present location.
It talks about pouring sand over the primordial water-filled earth, about chain from heaven, etc. very similar to the Yoruba creation myth.
I will cite reference to it soon.
Modified --- see below as promised:
"The myth of the pouring sky ("Iso Norho" )
The most popular surviving non-dynastic myth of a common Edo origin is that of Iso Norho, ... .It puts the emergence of the Benin and other -speaking people in a primordial centre, Uhe, a place where problems are heaped before Oghene --- the God of creation --- ... .Uhe is said to have been occupied by Olukumi ("Yoruba" ), Igbon ("Igbo" ) and Uzon ("Ijo" ).
The myth begins by naming Oghene ( God" ) as the father of Iso ("the Sky" ), Ason ("Night" ) and Avan ("Daylight" ). Out of the three children of Oghene, only the eldest son, Iso ("Sky" ), had children; Ame ("Water" ) and Oto ("Earth" ). The children of Oto were Igbon ("Igbo" ), Olukumi ("Yoruba " and Idu ("Edo ". ... .But Oghene did not want the children to suffer undue hardship. By means of a chain he poured sand on the flood water to form dry land for their inhabitants. Thus Uhe ("i.e. old Ife" ) was formed by divine ("Oghene's" ) providence. ...
Idu's children ("Akka, Efa, Emechi" ) had to migrate from Uhe to the present site of Benin City --- then called Ubinu --- where they displaced a group of original settlers, Ivbirinwineko ("dwarfs from the spirit world" ). Memories of these original settlers are preserved in Edo songs and folklore."
Reference: Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs: Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, pp.312-313.
From the beginning of time Benin and other Edoid groups such a Urhobo have always referred to God almighty in heaven as Oghene.
The Ogene she is trying to convert to Ooni today was first argued by her as being part of Benin myths of creation. You can see from TAO11 submission below that Oghene clearly referred to God in heaven not Ooni of Ife.
In Benin myths of creation, the Benin/Iso people as represented by the Ogisos are the most senior and supreme just as the Jews claim being the apples of God eyes.
Today, she wants to twist the Benin myths of creation to suits her Benin/Ife fairytale. She even replaces God almighty with Ooni of Ife. The Benin/Iso people who were senior in the original myth are now juniors.
The Oba of Benin prays to God almighty in heaven, Oghene not Ooni. He may pray for others but the prayers goes to God in heaven, Oghene.
TAO11: Actually they have a number of conflicting creation myths.
One of them --- with the title "Iso Norho" --- specifically mentions Ife as the center of the world from where Edo, Ijaw, and Igbo left to their present location.
It talks about pouring sand over the primordial water-filled earth, about chain from heaven, etc. very similar to the Yoruba creation myth.
I will cite reference to it soon.
Modified --- see below as promised:
"The myth of the pouring sky ("Iso Norho" )
The most popular surviving non-dynastic myth of a common Edo origin is that of Iso Norho, ... .It puts the emergence of the Benin and other -speaking people in a primordial centre, Uhe, a place where problems are heaped before Oghene --- the God of creation --- ... .Uhe is said to have been occupied by Olukumi ("Yoruba" ), Igbon ("Igbo" ) and Uzon ("Ijo" ).
The myth begins by naming Oghene ( God" ) as the father of Iso ("the Sky" ), Ason ("Night" ) and Avan ("Daylight" ). Out of the three children of Oghene, only the eldest son, Iso ("Sky" ), had children; Ame ("Water" ) and Oto ("Earth" ). The children of Oto were Igbon ("Igbo" ), Olukumi ("Yoruba " and Idu ("Edo ". ... .But Oghene did not want the children to suffer undue hardship. By means of a chain he poured sand on the flood water to form dry land for their inhabitants. Thus Uhe ("i.e. old Ife" ) was formed by divine ("Oghene's" ) providence. ...
Idu's children ("Akka, Efa, Emechi" ) had to migrate from Uhe to the present site of Benin City --- then called Ubinu --- where they displaced a group of original settlers, Ivbirinwineko ("dwarfs from the spirit world" ). Memories of these original settlers are preserved in Edo songs and folklore."
Reference: Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs: Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, pp.312-313.
Culture › Re: Th by samuk: 7:43am On Aug 27, 2021*. Modified: 8:05am On Aug 27, 2021
From the beginning of time Benin and other Edoid groups such a Urhobo have always referred to God almighty in heaven as Oghene.
The Ogene she is trying to convert to Ooni today was first argued by her as being part of Benin myths of creation. You can see from TAO11 submission below that Oghene clearly referred to God in heaven not Ooni of Ife.
In Benin myths of creation, the Benin/Iso people as represented by the Ogisos are the most senior and supreme just as the Jews claim being the apples of God eyes.
Today, she wants to twist the Benin myths of creation to suits her Benin/Ife fairytale. She even replaces God almighty with Ooni of Ife. The Benin/Iso people who were senior in the original myth are now juniors.
The Oba of Benin prays to God almighty in heaven, Oghene not Ooni. He may pray for others but the prayers goes to God in heaven, Oghene.
TAO11: Actually they have a number of conflicting creation myths.
One of them --- with the title "Iso Norho" --- specifically mentions Ife as the center of the world from where Edo, Ijaw, and Igbo left to their present location.
It talks about pouring sand over the primordial water-filled earth, about chain from heaven, etc. very similar to the Yoruba creation myth.
I will cite reference to it soon.
Modified --- see below as promised:
"The myth of the pouring sky ("Iso Norho" )
The most popular surviving non-dynastic myth of a common Edo origin is that of Iso Norho, ... .It puts the emergence of the Benin and other -speaking people in a primordial centre, Uhe, a place where problems are heaped before Oghene --- the God of creation --- ... .Uhe is said to have been occupied by Olukumi ("Yoruba" ), Igbon ("Igbo" ) and Uzon ("Ijo" ).
The myth begins by naming Oghene ( God" ) as the father of Iso ("the Sky" ), Ason ("Night" ) and Avan ("Daylight" ). Out of the three children of Oghene, only the eldest son, Iso ("Sky" ), had children; Ame ("Water" ) and Oto ("Earth" ). The children of Oto were Igbon ("Igbo" ), Olukumi ("Yoruba " and Idu ("Edo ". ... .But Oghene did not want the children to suffer undue hardship. By means of a chain he poured sand on the flood water to form dry land for their inhabitants. Thus Uhe ("i.e. old Ife" ) was formed by divine ("Oghene's" ) providence. ...
Idu's children ("Akka, Efa, Emechi" ) had to migrate from Uhe to the present site of Benin City --- then called Ubinu --- where they displaced a group of original settlers, Ivbirinwineko ("dwarfs from the spirit world" ). Memories of these original settlers are preserved in Edo songs and folklore."
Reference: Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs: Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, pp.312-313.
Below is the story of Ogane mentioned in Benin history that TAO11 is claiming as Ooni/Ife.
For those that doesn't know the geographical location of Ife from Benin. Please be kindly informed that Ife is situated West of Benin.
1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7
Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.
Culture › Re: Th by samuk: 12:12am On Aug 27, 2021*. Modified: 1:20am On Aug 27, 2021
Below is the story of Ogane mentioned in Benin history that TAO11 is claiming as Ooni/Ife.
For those that doesn't know the geographical location of Ife from Benin. Please be kindly informed that Ife is situated West of Benin.
1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7
Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.
RedboneSmith: Huh? I wasn't even suggesting professional historians are always right. Historians amend their positions regularly as they gain more data. Which is why a history book written in 1950 will probably be out of date in 2021.
I only talked about separating the opinion of random people from the opinion of trained professionals, in reaction to your post about random Igbos claiming the Obas are Igbo.
I thought I was the one who was supposed to have comprehension problems.
I went elaborate not to give room for anyone to capitalise on your statement as supporting their position and even if you were tacitly, you were supposed to see the flaws in your argument.
I am sure you know I don't believe the Igbo version more than the Yoruba version. I only referenced the Igbo version for emphasis. Yoruba and later day western writers can't be believed completely.
The British have been honest enough to admit that most of what they wrote about Benin starting from the 1860s were grossly exaggerated and sometimes lies, it was to convince the British government and people for the need to depose the Oba of Benin they saw as a stumbling block and barrier to their trade interests in the region.
Most of what the British wrote about Benin starting from the 1860 was to give a dog a bad name in order to hang it. This is what their official government archives says.
Culture › Re: Th by samuk: 11:26pm On Aug 26, 2021*. Modified: 11:48pm On Aug 26, 2021
TAO12: You must be really dead-scared to quote and address all my comment. Address my comment point for point. Go toe to toe with me.
Again, here are some of the scholars of African history (among all others who also reach the same conclusion anyways) who have reached the conclusion that IFE was suzerain over Benin kingdoms (as shown in the attachment below) and that the kings of Benin a pateilineally Yorubas.
A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.
Name me one [b]scholar of African histor[/b]y who have reached the conclusion that Nri (or any Igbo state) was suzerain over Benin or that your obas are patrilineally Igbos. You have this one job. Just one. So do it.
If you can’t, then stop comparing the conclusion of historical scholarship with the opinion of laypersons.
Peace!
I don't address lies. The Organe you continue to point to as your evidence of Benin/Ife relationship in the 1500s was said to be situated in a location east of Benin. Ife/Ooni domain is west of Benin.
You want me to believe east is west when the document clearly stated east, sorry I am not dumb and stupid. God gave some of us brains and common sense.
Your Organe evidence says east not west, this completely ruled Ife out, no so called experts can tell me east is west.
Organe in it's other forms is what you want me to believe as evidence of Benin/Ife relationship for almost 800 years.
RedboneSmith: By the way, no serious Igbo historian has ever claimed the Obas are of Igbo origin.
We should learn to separate what lay people and trolls say/write on the internet from what scholars actually say. The Ooni of Ife has lent his voice to the claims that the aboriginal Igbo (Ugbo) of the Ife area were the same as the ethnic group of that name. I'm not going to go around saying that is the Yoruba postion on the Igbo/Ugbo because I saw a video of the Ooni saying it. No professional historian of Yoruba extraction has ever written that.
I beg to disagree. I always insist on eyewitness historical accounts wherever it's available, anything less than this are assumptions of the writers who were not present to the events they write about.
These so called professional gather their primary materials from oral sources and it's very difficult to separate humans biases from the finished products or written works. If you read a story of a war from the Victor's perspective, you are more likely to be misled.
Are you aware that most of the movies produced by Hollywood as real life stories are usually less than 40 percent truthful. I am talking of events that happened in our life time not some 900 year ago as the Benin/Ife relationship fallacy.
There are several theories out there by experts on how the world began, they all have their possibilities. How many of what we taught years back as truth turned out to be lies.
Don't forget that experts once told us the world was flat. German scientists once conducted a study that says black people were less human compared to white people.
In any situation of conflicts such as the Benin/Ife relationship, the sensible thing is to demand eyewitness historical evidence. I bet the Benin/Ife relationship doesn't have such evidence supporting it.
You can't tell me the Oba of Benin is Yoruba when you can't show me a single Oba of Benin with a Yoruba name, no Benin prince/princess with Yoruba names. No oral or written accounts of Benin having any interaction with Ife for almost 800 years, 1100s to 1897.
Two Obas of Benin have come out to say they are not Yoruba. All I see with the Benin/Ife connection is superiority contest which have no historical evidence to back it up. I particularly don't see the evidence that supports it either from the Benin or the Yoruba side.
RedboneSmith: Yes. I did. And I will carry out that threat if you ever lie against me again. I detest lies. Other than that, we are good. What happens here is just bants.
You come from Benin, but Illah man juju scared you so badly, you ran away from his mentions.
You are now contradicting yourself, you agreed earlier that nothing scares Benin guys.
TAO12: No serious knowledge-seeking person would forsake the conclusion of the world’s historical scholarship on African history for the opinions of laypersons as in the videos you posted.
The conclusion of historical scholarship on the topic in question is as submitted in my comment below, and as summarized in the first attachment below.
I am not aware of any Igbo who have read this and yet not agree that your Oba of Benin is a Yoruba man. See the second attachment for a testimony.
Peace!
What nonsense did you just write. Is this not how your own Benin/Ife relationship started?
Since you haven't see an Igbo man that doesn't think Oba of Benin is Yoruba, go to Agueleri and Nri to go and talk that trash. I just showed you two videos of Igbo version of Benin/Nri relationship, you are still saying you haven't see any Igbo who doesn't think Oba of Benin is not Yoruba, are those men in that video not Igbos.
You can only deceive gullible Igbo on nairaland.
Your Benin/Ife fallacy was developed from oral history, none of your so called experts were witnesses to it. Infact there wasn't Benin/Ife relationship before 1897. The Organe which was mentioned in Benin history in the 15th century was said to be east of Benin. If there is any plausibility with the story of Organe (which I doubt) I would say it sounds more Igbo than your western Ooni.
RedboneSmith: Mai fren, mention me with your chest! What are you afraid of? Benin boys I know don't fear anybody. Must be an Urhue thing.
And don't be sleek. You know what you wrote. You know you were not implying that Benin and Igbo languages shared 'udo' in common; you were implying that Onitsha took Udo from Udo town in Edo. Don't change mouth now because someone who actually knows the history of Udo deity has called you out.
Are you not the one that made the comment in this screenshot below? Were you also talking of words shared in common there?
Guy, the last time I mentioned you, you threatened to unleash all the juju in your village. I laughed and asked if any black man or Nigeria can threaten a Benin person with juju, I thought you guys said we are the headquarters of those things
Culture › Re: Th by samuk: 8:42pm On Aug 26, 2021*. Modified: 10:25pm On Aug 26, 2021
Below is the Igbo version of Benin/Ife relationship. Only this time it's called Benin/Nri relationship.
Invasion and attack on Benin history is from both east and west. Benin people are left defending their history all year round from ethnic revisionists from both east and west who often collaborate and lend each others support.
This is what Benin have to suffer for being a great and powerful kingdom/empire sandwiched between east, north and west. I understand the Igalas also have their own version of Benin/Igala relationship where the Oba of Benin was said to be an Igala man.
The eastern and western revisionist see Benin who are defending their history as the enemies and aggressors. Igbo and Yoruba liars collaborate to call Benin people who they are trying to steal their history liars.
Looking at both revisionist Benin/Ife and Benin/Nri relationships, the Benin/Nri sounds more plausible on several fronts which are not limited to shared common words and traditions. Even the eastern Organe TAO11 has been trying to move west sounds more Igbo than Ooni, Oduduwa, Ife or Oranmiyan . I am sure TAO11 have heard of the Igbo traditional Ogene dance.
I must admit the Igbos put more efforts in their version than the Yorubas. The Yorubas have to go back to the drawing board to be taken seriously.
If the Igbos want to stretch their claims further, they could even twist some Oba of Benin names to sound Igbos.
Unfortunately the Yoruba doesn't have this advantage because those Benin Obas names bear no semblance to Yoruba names and no amount of linguistic acrobatics will make them sound Yoruba .
PS: The guy above me has problems with English comprehension. Sharing common words or common words appearing in both Benin and Igbo language does not mean or translate into a town being deified.
(1) The period of the Europeans’ interaction with the southern “Nigeria” area relates to the period when the Portuguese, the Dutch, the French, et al. came as traders, travelers, explores, etc.
The period under consideration is thus somewhere in between the late-1400s up to around the mid-1800s.
These European explorers, traders, and travelers did not visit for the purpose of colonial conquest.
(2) In contrast, the period of colonial interest began in the very early-1800s. And the actual colonization first began in the mid-1800s.
So, there is a clear and sharp distinction between the periods of interaction (from explores, traders, etc. who clearly didn’t attempt a colonial government) and the period of conquest (from the British who initiated the actual conquest of in the mid-1800s).
As such, you’ve been asked to show us just one name of your oba which was documented during the period of European interaction with the southern “Nigeria” area.
You must realize, in your best interest, that my words are always chosen with utmost care and precision. I don’t type just to be seen typing as you do.
Show me any of these names in any contemporary pre-1897 writing of Benin history (or any pre-1897 writing of Benin history for that matter).
[Mind you, these are your supposed obas who are said to have ruled between the late-1200s and circa 1816 — i.e. not extending into the start of British imperialism in the “southern” Nigeria area.]
(1) The period of the Europeans’ interaction with the southern “Nigeria” area relates to the period when the Portuguese, the Dutch, the French, et al. came as traders, travelers, explores, etc.
The period under consideration is thus somewhere in between the late-1400s up to around the mid-1800s.
These European explorers, traders, and travelers did not visit for the purpose of colonial conquest.
(2) In contrast, the period of colonial interest began in the very early-1800s. And the actual colonization first began in the mid-1800s.
So, there is a clear and sharp distinction between the periods of interaction (from explores, traders, etc. who clearly didn’t attempt a colonial government) and the period of conquest (from the British who initiated the actual conquest of in the mid-1800s).
As such, you’ve been asked to show us just one name of your oba which was documented during the period of European interaction with the southern “Nigeria” area.
You must realize, in your best interest, that my words are always chosen with utmost care and precision. I don’t type just to be seen typing as you do.
Show me any of these names in any contemporary pre-1897 writing of Benin history (or any pre-1897 writing of Benin history for that matter).
[Mind you, these are your supposed obas who are said to have ruled between the late-1200s and circa 1816 — i.e. not extending into the start of British imperialism in the “southern” Nigeria area.]
TAO12: I stand by it 100% because to a Yoruba free-born, [the latter] periods of conquest of “Nigeria” is not one and the same as [the prior] periods of interaction.
You must be a natural slave if “interaction” means one and the same thing as “conquest” to you.
I’m not surprised. You’re an Edo. So, conquering you may be one and the same as interacting with you.
As such, your attempt at being my secretary turns out to be a misery for you. So, CRAP!
Show me any of these names in any contemporary pre-1897 writing of Benin history (or in any pre-1897 writing of Benin history whatsoever).
What nonsense are you saying. You boldly said no Nigeria or Benin king was named by Europeans during the years of interactions.
TAO12: PS: Throughout the centuries of interaction between the Europeans and the southern “Nigeria” area, including Benin kingdom, there is no single record of a name of any Benin king.
Shall we then be foolish like you to pretend to reach the inane conclusion that Benin began to have kings on recently — or that Benin kings (if they exist) never had names?
Peace!
Cc: nisai
I say you are a big liar because the Europeans were in Benin Palace to interact with the Oba of Benin. The name of Oba of Benin was recorded down and this was decades before Benin was conquered by the British in 1897.
All you need to do is admit that your initial statement was wrong and let me lecture you. You can't con and wiggle your way out of this. Name of Benin oba was written down by Europeans during the years of interactions.
Admit your flaws and allow me to lecture you. Numerous of your supporters are waiting to learn real history not your lies.
TAO12: I stand by it 100% because to a Yoruba free-born, [the latter] periods of conquest of “Nigeria” is not one and the same as [the prior] periods of interaction.
You must be a natural slave if “interaction” means one and the same thing as “conquest” to you.
I’m not surprised. You’re an Edo. So, conquering you may be one and the same as interacting with you.
As such, your attempt at being my secretary turns out to be a misery for you. So, CRAP!
Show me any of these names in any contemporary pre-1897 writing of Benin history (or in any pre-1897 writing of Benin history whatsoever).
What nonsense are you saying. You boldly said no Nigeria or Benin king was named by Europeans during the years of interactions.
TAO12: PS: Throughout the centuries of interaction between the Europeans and the southern “Nigeria” area, including Benin kingdom, there is no single record of a name of any Benin king.
Shall we then be foolish like you to pretend to reach the inane conclusion that Benin began to have kings on recently — or that Benin kings (if they exist) never had names?
Peace!
Cc: nisai
I say you are a big liar because the Europeans were in Benin Palace to interact with the Oba of Benin. The name of Oba of Benin was recorded down and this was decades before Benin was conquered by the British in 1897.
All you need to do is admit that your initial statement was wrong and let me lecture you.
TAO12: I stand by it 100% because to a Yoruba free-born, [the latter] periods of conquest of “Nigeria” is not one and the same as [the prior] periods of interaction.
You must be a natural slave if “interaction” means one and the same thing as “conquest” to you.
I’m not surprised. You’re an Edo. So, conquering you may be one and the same as interacting with you.
As such, your attempt at being my secretary turns out to be a misery for you. So, CRAP!
Show me any of these names in any contemporary pre-1897 writing of Benin history (or in any pre-1897 writing of Benin history whatsoever).
What nonsense are you saying. You boldly said no Nigeria or Benin king was named by Europeans during the year of interactions.
I say you are a big liar because the Europeans were in Benin Palace to interact with the Oba of Benin. The name of Oba of Benin was recorded down and this was decades before Benin was conquered by the British in 1897.
All you need to do is admit that your initial statement was wrong and let me lecture you.
Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.
NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.
This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.
In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].
The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.
This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.
In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.
For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:
(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.
(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).
This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.
Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).
Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”
Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.
There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.
These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.
In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.
Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.
These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.
The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.
The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.
What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.
Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].
~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.
For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:
(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc
(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.
(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.
In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.
In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.
Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:
A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.
A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.
Peace!
Cc: nisai
You are only clever by half, are you the one to provide me with a list you drawn up and asked me to show you the names within your list.
Below is your claim:
TAO12: PS: Throughout the centuries of interaction between the Europeans and the southern “Nigeria” area, including Benin kingdom, there is no single record of a name of any Benin king.
Peace!
Cc: nisai
Do you still stand by your above claim.
I must warn you that name of Benin Oba was recorded by Europeans before the fall of Benin in 1897.
Show me any of these name in any contemporary pre-1897 writing of Benin history (or in any pre-1897 writing of Benin history whatsoever). Your time starts now:
You are only clever by half, are you the one to provide me with a list you drawn up and asked me to show you the names within your list.
Below is your claim:
TAO12: PS: Throughout the centuries of interaction between the Europeans and the southern “Nigeria” area, including Benin kingdom, there is no single record of a name of any Benin king.
Peace!
Cc: nisai
Do you still stand by your above claim.
I must warn you that name of Benin Oba was recorded by Europeans before the fall of Benin in 1897.
TAO12: PS: Throughout the centuries of interaction between the Europeans and the southern “Nigeria” area, including Benin kingdom, there is no single record of a name of any Benin king.
Shall we then be foolish like you to pretend to reach the inane conclusion that Benin began to have kings on recently — or that Benin kings (if they exist) never had names?
Peace!
Cc: nisai
Does the lady of fraud still stand by the above lies and misinformation? You almost got away with this.
You copy and paste junks knowing too well that most guys here on nairaland lacks common sense to interrogate your write ups.
Most guys are below average in their thinking abilities and you capitalise on this by overwhelming them with copy and paste that most of them can't read, even some that can read them hardly understand the long gibberish. Even when a location says east and you told them the text actually means west, some of these guys are so dense that they believe you.
You chum out garbage and lies with such authority that the less informed and ignorant are easily misled, misinformed and deceived.
What do you have to say for yourself now that you have been caught pants down.
I repeat names of Benin Obas were documented by Europeans before oba Ovonramwen in 1897 and none of the Oba had Yoruba names.
You pretend to know Benin history, but you don't. Your knowledge of Benin history doesn't go beyond the fairytales that were told between 1897 to 1960. Your knowledge of Benin history begins and ends in this 66 years difficult period in Benin history.
Culture › Re: Th by samuk: 9:23am On Aug 26, 2021*. Modified: 11:30am On Aug 26, 2021
TAO12: PS: Throughout the centuries of interaction between the Europeans and the southern “Nigeria” area, including Benin kingdom, there is no single record of a name of any Benin king.
Shall we then be foolish like you to pretend to reach the inane conclusion that Benin began to have kings on recently — or that Benin kings (if they exist) never had names?
Peace!
Cc: nisai
Does the lady of fraud still stand by the above lies and misinformation? You almost got away with this.
You copy and paste junks knowing too well that most guys here on nairaland lacks common sense to interrogate your write ups.
Most guys are below average in their thinking abilities and you capitalise on this by overwhelming them with copy and paste that most of them can't read, even some that can read them hardly understand the long gibberish. Even when a location says east and you told them the text actually means west, some of these guys are so dense that they believe you.
You chum out garbage and lies with such authority that the less informed and ignorant are easily misled, misinformed and deceived.
What do you have to say for yourself now that you have been caught pants down.
I repeat names of Benin Obas were documented by Europeans before oba Ovonramwen in 1897 and none of the Oba had Yoruba names.
You pretend to know Benin history, but you don't. Your knowledge of Benin history doesn't go beyond the fairytales that were told between 1897 to 1960. Your knowledge of Benin history begins and ends in this 66 years difficult period in Benin history.
TAO12: The Devastating Refutation: Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.
NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.
This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.
In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].
The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.
This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.
In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.
For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:
(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.
(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).
This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.
Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).
Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”
Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.
There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.
These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.
In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.
Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.
These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.
The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.
The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.
What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.
Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].
~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.
For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:
(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc
(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.
(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.
In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.
In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.
Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:
A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.
A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.
Peace!
No need for all these long epistle, oba Erediawa is the custodian of the source your so called story tellers relied upon, if he said they were wrong, then they were wrong, it's as simple as that.
What name did Oranmiyan name his supposed Benin prince who became Oba Eweka.
You can now see how difficult it is to defend lies. Hiding behind long copy and paste gibberish can't save you.
Culture › Re: The Power The Oba Of Benin Wield In The Past by samuk: 10:57pm On Aug 28, 2021
and Idu ("Edo "