₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
No, you have to prove your own fabrications.

He who makes claims has the burden of proof.

Oh, except that lies and fabrications can't be proven.

Can you provide evidence to substantiate at least one (only one) of your statements??

You've been debunked numerous times on each of all your claims, your delusion is only a strong one.

The problem with you is that you are too emotional and see everything as a fight, this is simple question that shouldn't result to insults and fight.

The fact that you may not know the answer to the question doesn't mean there are no others around here who can provide answer to my simple question.

Please allow those that are up to the challenge to win themselves $1000, one thousand US dollars in this very difficult times of covid-19 lockdown.

Benin is not died, buried non cremated yet, so stop trying to create Ife out of the ashes of old Benin empire.

Benin had no relationship with Ife in the first 400 years of written Benin history.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1987, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

RamessesIV:
How was my comment sly Even when tao11 replies me i always tell her i'll do my own research,meaning I do not necessary agree with everything anyone says here I come to my own conclusion

Bullied?? How?? cause i don't go about insulting people??

As I have repeated I do not have interest in any tribal war or debate

Again I do not believe in whatever anyone write that's why I said "I do not agree per say" that was not to sly you or disprove of your questions or observation but to tell you that I just read and come to my own personal conclusion

Anyways I apologize if my reply might have sounded offensive i did not in any way try to downplay your contribution in favor of tao11,and as I have repeated here I have no beef with anyone and I honestly have no interest in all these debate and quarrels am just interested in some topics and question.

Cool, no problem, I am glad you do not believe anything anybody writes.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

Always read bias motive into any submission and be sceptical, apply your reasoning because it's easy for anyone to copy and paste rubbish to support their tribal narratives.

Apply the same standard of scrutiny to every topic you are interested in.

If an Edo person write and claim that Lagos was an Edo colony as far back as 1600AD , demand for a written records of that time that say so, don't settle for anything written in 1920 or 1985 because the best you could get from all these latter day writers who were not eyewitnesses are conjectures that are hardly the true representation of what happened centuries earlier.

Ordinarily, I will not be concerned about all the fabrications from TAO11 and other Yoruba people on Nairaland, but if we allow all their fabrications to stand without being challenged, the less informed may just believe them as truth because Nigeria schools no longer teaches history and those interested in Nigeria history comes here to read.

The fact is the Yoruba are here to rubbish and claim Benin/Edo history for themselves, they can't answer any questions about Ife without using Benin in some obscure way to validate their answer and claim.

You will never read an Ife history in isolation without Benin being mentioned in a fabricated way.

They can't tell you about Ife Bronzes without infusing their bigotry interpretations of Benin into their narrative.

Benin is the pillar the history of Ife stands on, I am still waiting to read their answers to any questions about Ife without the mention of Benin.

They want the world to know that Benin had some sort of history with Ife until 1920. But this is not the case.

You don't have to take my words for it, you can do your own research on the following.

1. There was nothing recorded between Ife and Benin for the first 400 years of Benin history, between 1475 and 1897.

2. Ife, Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, all entered into Benin history after Benin empire ended in 1897.

3. Benin written history is 400 years older than Ife history.

4. There was nothing written about Ife until about 1920

5. Benin had relationship with other Yoruba tribes such as Owo, Ekiti, Akure much earlier. Benin was already controlling Lagos as far back as 1575 and there are actual written eyewitness accounts of Benin army in Lagos in 1603.

6. They are trying to create Ife out of the ashes of old Benin empire but Benin is not completely died, buried or cremated yet.

You or anyone else who don't believe what I have written can come back with written accounts of Benin/Ife relationship early than 1897 to disprove what I have stated.

Between 1475 and 1897 there were thousands of pages written on Benin history by various Europeans, that is 400 years of written history, in those documents, you will find various tribes from, Agbor, Esan, Urhobos Itsekiri, Izon, Ekiti Lagos, Kogi Afemai and other Edo, Yoruba and Igbo people but you will never find Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan written anywhere.

The Yoruba only started writing about Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife after 1897, people are free to provide a counter prove to prove me wrong.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

TAO11:
Regarding the bird imagery in Yoruba (and allied) iconography, Pemberton and Afolayan writing specifically about the crown of the Orangun-Ila have the following to say citing the studies of Henry and Margaret Drewal:

"Henry and Margaret Drewal have shown in their studies of bird imagery in Yoruba iconography that birds are associated with power ... of women or "our mothers" ... It is their hidden, procreative power, a power that can give birth but can also be used to deny others their creative power. It is woman's power upon which the continuity of a husband's patrilineage depends. And ... "without the mothers" (a king) "could not rule". Furthermore, the large bird at the peak of the crown is attached to a peg the other end of which is bound to a packet of powerful ingredients ... placed in the top of the crown ... The packet touches the top of the Oba's head ... which is thought to contain (his) life force ... It makes the Oba powerful over all kinds of spirits ..."

Reference:
Pemberton and Afolayan: Yoruba Sacred Kingship, pp.89-94.

The foregoing reference to Henry and Margaret Drewal's studies on bird imagery in Yoruba iconography is clearly seen to be in relation to the powers of "àwọn ìyá mi òṣòròngà".

As it has been mentioned above, recognizing and acknowledging "them" in the palace's overall political structure will guarantee a smooth running of the government and vice-versa.

This fact therefore provides some collateral explanation for the presence of such bird imagery on the headdress of the Ife art emissary to Benin, as well as atop the Benin palace itself.

The former being a diplomat representing the Ife-Yoruba government in a foreign land, while the latter is the actual embassy of the Ife-Yoruba government in that land.

Cheers!

cc: OgboAto, macof

You were asked about the bird on the roof of Benin Oba Palace, you went on Yoruba interpretation of the significance of bird and then assumed it's the same in Benin and concluded that the practice went from Ife to Benin.

You must really think the audience on this thread are daft and lack reasoning ability, well some may lack logic but not everybody are stupid.

Learn how to say you don't know the answer to some questions rather than attempting to answer all questions with fabrications.

I am still waiting for the day you guys will write anything about Ife without the mention of Benin.

Ife rises with the mention of Benin and Ife falls with the mention of Benin. Nothing about Ife can be validated without the mention of Benin.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

Chibossboi:
I have no say in biafra.

No one is asking you to have a say in Biafra, rather you are being told Biafra have no say in Anioma, those that wants to be Biafrans can cross over.

RamessesIV:
But sorry to ask how does that involve me?? If tao11 insults you and you do to her I wonder how that involves me,anyways as I said I have no problem with anyone

It didn't concern you, you should have just read my post, take whatever you wish from it or even ignore it without making the sly remark you made about I was not taking his words per say.

You being Edo was questioned because Edo people do not easily give in to bullies and being cowered, you started well with your questions which I told you repeatedly but you carry on like someone that is afraid of being insulted and then settle for less.

Edo people are usually with very sound reasoning and don't settled for less.

How would Benin artworks that were never sold or prohibited from being sold by the Oba deprive Ife of its artworks market, which art markets did Ife sell their artworks to that Benin took over from them.

If you are here on nairaland to believe every copy and paste irrespective of the academic titles of the authors without interrogating what you are being presented, you will hardly learn anything other than what others regurgitated.

TAO11:
Oh, now I get!

Regarding why we see a discontinued production in modern Ife, in contrast to some continued production in modern Benin Kingdom:

The answers to this lies in an interplay of two important factors, namely: timeline and power.


Earlier on, I alluded to the scientific dating techniques which situates the beginning of the casting tradition of Ife to some centuries before Benin's beginnings. To quote the precise words again, R. Horton writes:

"Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescence techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the "classical" terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. A.D. 1420 -- just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*"

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), pp.86-87.

It becomes clear from the foregoing that Benin metal casting tradition begins towards the end-date obtainable for the Ife works in the early 1400s. This relatively newcomer casting tradition of Benin then continues till the arrival of the Portugues in c.1480 and beyond.

It is import to notice that, interestingly, the beginnings of the metal casting tradition Benin almost coincides perfectly with the gradual rise of Benin Kingdom as a power during the reign of Ewuare1.

This intersection of the casting tradition with the rise of Benin Kingdom as a power serves to bolster the tradition till the fall of the kingdom in 1897. Although, some volume of production may have survive in modern times even after the fall in 1897, these volume of production can not possibly be comparable to the volume of production when the kingdom was at its height.

In all, the beginning of the tradition in Benin as well as the rise and fall the Benin Kingdom is closer to our modern times.


In contrast to Benin, Ife emerged as a power in the West Africa region from c.900AD up to c.14550AD when it fell. In relation to this R. Horton writes:

"Phase 2. (900 A.D.-1450 A.D.)
Ife emerged as a power in the region after the main wave of Yoruba expansion and cultural differentiation."

Reference:
Ibid., p.140.

Just like in the latter Benin case, Ife's art tradition spanning (1000AD to 1440AD) coincides almost perfectly with its rise as a power. It becomes obvious then that its fall plays a roll in the gradual decline of its art tradition obviously.

In fact, the factors responsible for its fall, are such peculiar factors as to necessitate the termination of its rich casting tradition. Interestingly and luckily for Benin Kingdom, such are not the same factors that led to Benin's fall.

Some of these factors are discussed under R. Horton's "phase 3 summary" as follows:

"Phase 3. (1450 A.D.-1650 A.D.)
Two outlying Ife provincial centres, Benin and Oyo, developed new trade routes linking seaboard, forest and savanna. These routes by-passed Ife to the east and the west. Early on, they provided alternative avenues for the traditional goods of the old central route. Later, they provided avenues for inland transportation of the important new supplies of cheap copper and iron brought to the coast by European merchants, thus giving Benin and Oyo rather than Ife first access to these vital commodities. In addition, Oyo, apparently borrowing the idea from its northern neighbours, developed a powerful cavalry force which enabled it to dominate the area between the forest and the Niger. These commercial and military developments tipped the balance of wealth and power away from Ife and toward Benin and Oyo. Both of the latter became independent of Ife. And as they started to overshadow the former metropolis, they drew much of its population away from it. Inspired by their example and encouraged by the dwindling power of Ife, other newly prosperous provincial centres followed them into independence ; and they too became magnets for the city's population. Ife was left small, poor, militarily weak and culturally impoverished."

Reference:
Ibid., p.141.

In all, the beginning of the tradition in Ife as well as the rise and fall Ife is father away from our modern times than Benin's.

Are you serious right now or joking?

So Ife declined and stopped producing artworks because of the rise of Benin and later Oyo.

According to your sources, the rise of Oyo and Benin attracted people away from Ife, who probably migrated to new headquarters of commerce, why did the people that left Ife to Oyo not continue with the artistic tradition in Oyo or any of the other Yoruba towns they migrated to.

You also suggested that both Benin and Oyo took trade out of Ife, meaning Ife lost the market for their artworks to Benin.

Who were Ife selling their artworks to before the rise of Benin and Oyo who took over Ife trade routes?

Why are there no more of Ife artworks discovered across Nigeria or other west Africa countries that they would have sold their arts to in commercial quantities.

Why did Benin continue with their artistic skills even after Benin empire ended in 1897, over 100 years ago.

There is no reason for Ife to have stopped producing their artworks because of the rise of Benin and Oyo.

Benin artworks were not originally sold, so there were no art markets that Benin took away from Ife. Benin artworks were the exclusive preserves of the Oba.

The truth is those artworks were not originally made in Ife.

You must really think the audience on this thread are daft and lack reasoning ability, well some may lack logic but not everybody are stupid.

Learn how to say you don't know the answer to some questions rather than attempting to answer all questions with fabrications.

I am still waiting for the day you guys will write anything about Ife without the mention of Benin.

Ife rises with the mention of Benin and Ife falls with the mention of Benin. Nothing about Ife can be validated without the mention of Benin.

RamessesIV:
I complemented her as I complemented you,I only said I didn't "take your words" same way I don't take her words,I tend to come to my own personal conclusion,you guys have been throwing bants since and I have never held it against any of you whatever your problems are I tend not to be involved,when I replied you did I in any way insult you??

So why does that dude feel he can come under my thread questioning me and being rude,I have no bone of contention in you guys ethnic quarrels,just because am Edo doesn't mean I should go around fighting pointless ethnic battles

I doubt if you can point to where I went personal on her. I only pointed to her insults but I never replied her with insults because that would have derailed the debate.

Anyway, keep up the questions, they are interesting.

,

1) I am a maths teacher, not a French teacher, but everything is pretty much the same to brainless youth like you, isn't it ?

2) I didn't say I am here to learn: well your nairaland profile says otherwise.

3) it is quite clear that you are not Edo. Unless you are just the dumbest Edo ever.

4) you are calling me out for insults but I just saw you reply tao11's comment which contained insults against Samuk and you didn't even mention the insult, rather you thanked him for the comment. Double standard ?

5) you are a liar whom is full of poo. You better say your true ethnicity.

Although it remains clear that you are incredibly dumb.




If you are just trying to bone tao11, then just do so and stop making foolish comments out of your sexual frustrations.

I actually noticed the double standard but didn't want to derail the debate. .

All the same, I actually found his questions interesting, that was why I even bordered commenting on them.

Chibossboi:
Am proudly an igbo man,
An anioma man,
An ukwuani man,
From ndokwa west LGA.
No Benin man can beat that.

1. Ibibio denounces inclusion in map of Biafra

Biafra http://sunnewsonline.com/including-ibibio-in-biafra-map-an-affront-group/

2. Urhobo denounces inclusion in map of Biafra

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/11/urhobo-denounces-inclusion-in-map-of-biafra/

3. Efik rejects Biafra

Nnamdi Kanu’s IPOB warned by Efik group to leave them out of Biafra ‘shenanigans’ Read more:

https://www.legit.ng/1113743-nnamdi-kanus-ipob-warned-by-efik-group-leave-biafra-shenanigans.html

https://www.naij.com/1113743-nnamdi-kanus-ipob-warned-by-efik-group-leave-biafra-shenanigans.html

4. Anioma rejects Biafra. Stop dragging us into Biafra, Anioma people of Delta tell agitators

http://sunnewsonline.com/stop-dragging-us-into-biafra-anioma-people-of-delta-tell-agitators

5. Ogoni rejects Biafra. Stop associating Ogoni with Biafra agitation, group warns Asari Dokubo.

https://www.naij.com/1109544-stop-associating-ogoni-biafra-agitation-group-warns-asari-dokubo.html

6. Annangs rejection of Biafra. We are not ready to be slaves in Biafra ―Annang

http://tribuneonlineng.com/not-ready-slaves-biafra-%E2%80%95annang

TAO11:
I decide when to stop flogging you, so stop begging me to stop.

I know you're rattled by the fact that I exposed your illiteracy, as well as your hopelesness as regards substantiating your lies with evidence.

Just like every other statements you've made before, the above too are unsubstantiable.

And the reason is simple, lies can not be substantiated.

Your rants therefore remain as trashed and debunked in my original answers.

Sweet!

When I write to debunk your trash, I don't have you in mind but the readers.

Besides your insults and photos are becoming stalled, boring and repetitive, you should make some improvements, I am sure you can copy new ones from the internet. It shouldn't be only fabricated history you should be copying and pasting.

TAO11:
Why are you troubled??

You appear to be unconvinced of your own bigotry and you're desperately looking for validation.

Your rants are not in touch with reality, and I have thoroughly debunked all your repetitions already.

It is only unfortunate that you're an illiterate otherwise you will have realized how far ago all your rants have been trashed.

It is my fervent prayer that you do not resort to considering the image below.

If you are convinced that you have debunked all the points I have raised about the origin of artworks that were found in Ife, then rest and stop replying. The reason you are so worked up and still replying is because you know your argument doesn't hold water and our silent readers can see through your lies.

How can people with a flourishing artistic culture, skills and knowledge only produce just a handful of artworks in their entire artistic history.

Those artworks were taken to Ife and they were not made there.

Those looking for the origin of the few artworks that were dug up in Ife should look towards Benin.

TAO11:
Not a single one of your 10 fallacies is left unaddressed in my replies to RemessesIV.

I am not surprised that all your points are at variance with reality.

It is understandable, you don't read. I can also understand why your pained by my answers!

The total artworks that were discovered in Ife is less than what was being produced in Benin daily.

If Ife had a flourishing artistic knowledge and culture over a period of time, more artworks would have been found. This is one of the reasons people believe that they were not made in Ife by Ife people. They were taken to Ife and not made there.

1. If Ife had a thriving artistic culture, more than a handful of of artworks would have been discovered or dug up in Ife.

2. There would have been numerous artworks discovered and not only a handful.

3. The fact that only a handful of artworks were discovered in Ife to date also lead credence to the claim that they were brought into Ife and not made there.

4. In Benin for example, thousands of various artworks from, Bronzes, wood carvings, carvings on elephant tusks, Iron works etc were found in the Palace and they were not buried and forgotten underground.

5. The world is still looking for more than half the artworks that were stolen by Nazi Germany during the second world war. They were buried and hidden in various sites across Europe by German soldiers. When they are discovered in the future, it will be wrong to say they were made in their current hidden locations.

6. If Ife had a flourishing artistic tradition, it would have likely extended to other parts of Yoruba land that claimed Ife Origin and a remnant of it would have survived till date in whatever form.

7. Not only were there no oral tradition of Ife artworks being made in Ife before they were discovered by accident, the Yorubas themselves, originally claimed that they came from Egypt.

8. The so called later day scholarly works are afterthoughts.

9. Benin is the only place with concrete artistic tradition, skills and knowledge, in Benin, various artistic skills and knowledge flourished and still being practiced.

10. The Ife artworks could have been made in Benin and taken down to Ife. No any other Yoruba tribes can account for the presence of the artworks that were dug up in Ife.

RedboneSmith:
The part of this comment that I highlighted is heavy with irony.

The fear of the late Sarduana was eventually justified in the end. Those that don't learn from history are bound to repeat its mistakes.

Those romancing the Igbos from south south are ignorant of history.

Everyone should stick to their borders and not trouble others. We can all live peacefully respecting each others.

Those that were part of the old Benin kingdom would have learned from history that you don't have to lose your cultural independence and everything about you to be part of a larger union.

As advanced as the United kingdom, the four nations that make up the union still maintain their independent identities despite coexisting for hundreds of years.

The Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English are still very proud of their individual heritages and keep their languages and cultures alive even though all speak English as a common language and bear English names. The English don't fabricate the history of others or try to deny the culture and heritage of others.

RamessesIV:
Thanks for your contribution,tao11 gave good points and i am also personally doing my own research

Am still wondering why the skill of such artwork went away but this isn't new
In fact the whole racial debate on egypt is based on the fact that modern egyptians lack cultural links to ancient Egyptians so I think you also make a good point too.

My point is that even if there was no written records of those Bronzes being made in Ife by Ife people because they didn't have written history, what happened to the Oral history, every Africa society that lacks written history have oral history.

If there was an oral history of Ife producing artworks in the past, it wouldn't have come as a surprise when they were discovered.

The fact that the Yorubas themselves were dumbfounded by the discovery and even went on to originally ascribed middle eastern origin to them call into question whether they were originally made in Ife by Ife people.

TAO11:
This one is nursing his bigoted wound here!

Sorry ehn!

It would have been shocking if your mouth was not opened from ear to ear.

What I wrote was not for your consumption but for those genuinely after real history and not fabrications.

You have presented your answer to RamessesIV and others silent readers who would have found the question interesting and was waiting for your reply.

I have produced a counter narrative to what you submitted, it's now left for those that ask the question and seek the answer to examine both points of views. That is the essence of debate. Not insults, when you feel your points and arguments have been defeated with a superior argument.

You will hardly find where I attack you personally from my reply because there was no need for the personal attacks as I believe my point of view was very sound in reasoning.

It's only those that have nothing concrete to say that quickly retort to insults to make up for their deficiencies in logical reasoning. Insults are far quicker from those that have very little thinking ability. Those with sound logical reasoning abilities will first examine what is being said before thinking about insults, in most cases insults hardly comes to mind. This is the difference between intellectuals and paper weights copy and paste people.

RamessesIV:
Thanks i truly appreciate your answer,and how well organized and researched it is,I will take my time to go over it again since am doing a little research of mine

it was on twitter oh on a "Yoruba history" page if I have time I go back to the tweet and provide screenshots so you can see how common this belief is i even forgot one said Iran,one brought egypt arts and was comparing the similarities,i didn't want to sound bias(cause I am very skeptical) that's why I asked you a Yoruba to give your insights,thing is many people claim historian or seem to know history these days,anyways I appreciate the time and effort you put into replying my questions.

1. By the time Ife Bronzes were discovered, there were nothing written before then to say Ife ever engaged in Bronze casting. In fact it was a complete shock to those that discovered them.

2. Academic machinery was put in place to study them and claim them for Ife.

3. There is no evidence to support the claims that those artworks were made in Ife, that's why they were first ascribed to being brought to Ife from Egypt, Mecca or Iran. All these would have been unnecessary if Ife had even had an Oral history that said they once produced Bronzes. There were no oral history that was discounted by white racist or the Yoruba themselves that ascribed the origin of the Bronzes to the Middle east.

4. All the references that were supplied by TAO11 were all written after the Bronzes have be discovered to feel in the gabs in history. A bit like working backwards from the answer to the question. I suggest that all the so called scholarly works supplied by TAO11 are after thoughts by those Yoruba baised writers.

5. Some of Ife Bronze are said to have been dated to as far back as 13th century, if these artworks were made in Ife, how come there was nothing recorded in Yoruba history for almost 600 years before they were discovered by accident.

When you examine the references provided as scholarly work to answer a question, always be sceptical. TAO11 evidence were all written in the 1900s to describe artworks of 500 to 600 years old.

Whilst the best of science can tell you the technique that was used to produce those artworks, they can't be certain if they were made in Ife and if indeed they were made by Ife people.

If Ife had such artistic knowledge, I don't see why it wouldn't have existed till today, there was no earthquake and major pestilence recorded in history of Ife that wiped out the artists. Even war can't wipe out such knowledge and skill from society otherwise Benin would have seized from producing artworks after the British expedition of 1897 that completely burnt down the city.

If Benin could maintain her various artistic skills till today, I don't see why Ife artistic skills and knowledge should have gone into extinction considering the relationship between Benin and Ife according to Yoruba history.

There are no evidence to support those artworks being made by Ife people in Ife.

Juliusmalema:
Anyway Bini is a small place to even argue with Igbos. RULED AND still ruled by Yoruba kings.

Desperation of the highest order.

Nobody will dream about Edo stajte in biafra.

More like witches and wizard in biafra.


Moreover Igbos have no business with you guys to even be discussing biafra with Benin. That's absurd.


Highly unstable. LMAO

You have serious issues that you should see a shrink. Where amongst the south south nationalities listed that rejected Biafra did you see Edo.

Benin doesn't even know if there is such thing as Biafra agitations, it's our south south brothers you guys are trying to steal their land that came out in masses to protest against Biafra in their lands.

Stay out of south south, you have been warned by the ethnic nationalities of south south. Biafra is the 5 states of south east, nothing more. You don't see the middle belt and the west trying to encroach into south south. We all have our regions and we should maintain our borders.

Ghostwon5:
No problem bro, I left a few comments with this account which I started today and will soon delete.
Please check them out.

Davidnazee
Areafada
gregyboy
Samuk

Okay

[quote author=Ghostwon5 post=89134936][/quote]Thanks for the correction.

Stay out of south south, as you can see the nationalities of south south rejects Biafra.

1. Ibibio denounces inclusion in map of Biafra

Biafra http://sunnewsonline.com/including-ibibio-in-biafra-map-an-affront-group/

2. Urhobo denounces inclusion in map of Biafra

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/11/urhobo-denounces-inclusion-in-map-of-biafra/

3. Efik rejects Biafra

Nnamdi Kanu’s IPOB warned by Efik group to leave them out of Biafra ‘shenanigans’ Read more:

https://www.legit.ng/1113743-nnamdi-kanus-ipob-warned-by-efik-group-leave-biafra-shenanigans.html

https://www.naij.com/1113743-nnamdi-kanus-ipob-warned-by-efik-group-leave-biafra-shenanigans.html

4. Anioma rejects Biafra. Stop dragging us into Biafra, Anioma people of Delta tell agitators

http://sunnewsonline.com/stop-dragging-us-into-biafra-anioma-people-of-delta-tell-agitators

5. Ogoni rejects Biafra. Stop associating Ogoni with Biafra agitation, group warns Asari Dokubo.

https://www.naij.com/1109544-stop-associating-ogoni-biafra-agitation-group-warns-asari-dokubo.html

6. Annangs rejection of Biafra. We are not ready to be slaves in Biafra ―Annang

http://tribuneonlineng.com/not-ready-slaves-biafra-%E2%80%95annang

Juliusmalema:
Old video argument, looks like crutching..

Your argument is defeated already.

"Senator Abaribe should not deny me my
igbo heritage" -- Rotimi amaechi

Chibuike Rotimi amaechi not only told the world that he is an igbo
man , he also warned that nobody should deny him his Igboness


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yriYzb61PEM

Anybody in the south south that claims Igbo should be allowed to be Igbo, likewise anyone that refuses to be Igbo.

The Dein of Agbor said he and his Agbor people are not Igbo that should also be respected. If Obi of Asaba comes out tomorrow and claim Igbo, he should be seen and respected as Igbo.

When Zik traces his ancestral lineage to the Benin royal family, was he saying he wasn't Igbo? So what's the problem with the claim of Zik and his grandmother.

The problem with those that lacks history is to diminished and rubbish the history of those that have, this is the reason you guys envy Zik and the Onitsha people so much.

You guys have so much bully and cowered the Onitsha people that they are now afraid to tell their history, haven't finished with Onitsha, you moved into Anioma and south south.

This is exactly what you find with the Yorubas, those that shout the most about Yoruba history were those whose ancestors where once used as sacrifices to the gods.

The biggest opposition to a unified Yoruba at the beginning were the Ijebus which Yoruba history record as being those that were used for sacrifice.

When Yoruba was coined from Oyo r' oba meaning Oyo is king of Yoruba, the Ijebus objected, when they didn't succeed, their son, Awolowo used his political position to make sure that the Ooni of Ife was elevated above the Alaafin of Oyo who actually had an empire and the strongest Yoruba Obas.

Today, the Ijebus are the greatest promoters of Ife supremacy to spite the Oyo and Benin that also once dominated them.

You guys are doing so much to deny people their history and replace it with your Nri fabrications because you are pursuing Biafra agenda.

Anyone in the south south that wants to be Igbo is free to be Igbo and you can't force Igbo on those that don't want to be Igbo.

Juliusmalema:
Zik Zik Zik and still an Igbo woman and igbo man you are still mentioning.

Seriously you Bini guys has lost the remaining credibility to any of these Government.

There is nothing , I mean nothing to link Bini and Igbo tale. The bulk stops at fabrications.

Benin have nothing to do with south east, just let south southerners be who they want to be. You can't come to south south and want to dominate the people.

It was this same altitude of the Igbo trying to greedily appropriate everything for themselves that partly lead to the Nigeria civil way and you guys losing your top position in Nigeria.

After your boys killed the Sarduana and other top Northerners to have their way to every section of Nigeria, Ironsi, changed the regional system of government to the current unitary system and the Igbo quickly moved to the North, asked all the expatriates to leave their jobs and they took the jobs for themselves.

The North had no choice but to fight back, till now the North is still very suspicious of the Igbo man, will anyone really blame them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6coimsqIyw

AreaFada2:
Who says Benin wants anything to do with the general Igbo, but those parts that are now consired part of wider Igbo that trace their origins to Benin, nobody has any right to deny them their history. Not you. Not me.

This was the danger the Dein of Agbor saw and he is doing everything possible to discourage Igbo culture. Imagine someone coming from Abia or Imo to tell the Dein of Agbor that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

The traits of the Igbos is to come to your land and try to dominate everybody. The reason the Sardauna of Sokoto refused them job opportunities in the northern region of early 1960s, he preferred white expatriates and other Nigerians linstead.


You can now see the reason the Anioma opted to be part of mid west region and south south rather than being part of the south east.

This is the same way they are forcing Ikwerre, Ekpeye and others in Rivers state to become Igbo. Both in Anioma and Rivers, the people are fighting back.

Unlike the Yorubas, Igbo unification project seems to be having far more problems from the south southerners they are trying to forcibly annexed.

When look at the attitude of some of these people, you begin to appreciate Sani Abacha for putting the final nail on their expansion in the south by creating the South south. Should Nigeria be restructured in the future, Biafra will not go beyond the current 5 states of south east.

If you guys think, the people you are claiming in Rivers and Delta will foolishly give up their freedom to become second class Igbo in Biafra, you most be dreaming.

The people of south south cherished their independence.

This is how the Sarduana described the Igbos in the first republic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6coimsqIyw

Juliusmalema:
I have heard you. LMAO

He even mentioned Obi isselu uku and still saying people are shoving Igboness to them.

Are you this funny man?

Just asking.lol

I know you are probably thinking Obi is Igbo title, don't forget the popular saying in Igbo is "Igbo enwe eze", which translates to "the Igbo have no king

RedboneSmith:
How is this relevant to the question asked about Ukwuani? Is Issele-Uku in Ukwuaniland?

The relevance is someone said all these including the one about ekwuani were all made up.

Maybe someone can explain why almost every tribes in Anioma up to Onitsha would make up and fabricate their history.

,

Juliusmalema:
LMAO

Bro all these are fairly tales though funny and appealing to read buy Bini and Igbos are way damn two different people.


You just funny on how serious u are writing all this and to me it is just funny and fun..

Igbos and Bini are two different people way apart .


Nothing is similar to be compared at all.

Check tribes that has similar names with you people probably Yorubas and compare all these there will be positive results.

Your advice should be for the people you are trying to shove your igboness down their throat. I repeat, it's not Benin people making these claims but the people themselves and for some reasons best known to you, you will simply not allow the people to be what they want to be.

Maybe you take your advice to the Palace of Dein of Agbor and Obi of Issele-uku and lecture them on their Igboness. It's possible you know something they don't know.

Juliusmalema:
Lol

More and more continue writing then after go and change their names and culture to Obaseki and una oba name


Lol.

Seriously people are funny in this life aswear.

So I have been wasting my time with you, I never knew you were even this ignorant about history, for your information, the Obaseki family are from Anioma.

Chief Agho Obaseki (died September 9, 1920) was a paramount Chief in the Benin Empire from 1898 to 1914, and then Iyase of Benin from 1914 until his death in 1920.[1]

Background Edit
Agho was the last of his father, Ogbeide's children. Ogbeide held the Bini Ine title under Oba Adolo. He was originally from Agbor. The Ine was the head of the palace society of Ibiwe and was responsible for raising the heir apparent and princes.[2] When he was about 25 years old, he got into some trouble in the village of Iguovinyoba, when he was entangled with a married woman. He thereafter left for Benin City to start a new life and there he met Crown Prince Idugbowa, later Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi who took Agho under protection and a friendship between the two men ensued. A young Agho became a trader for Prince Idugbowa.[1]

Juliusmalema:
Is that all.


I am just laughing here.

Any other article so we can read as usual.


LMAO.

You still believe that Benin was terrorising her people and the people are all still very happy to identify with Benin. The Dein of Agbor said his people should stop promoting Igbo culture, Zik traces the history of Onitsha to Benin and Issele uku and numerous other Anioma people traces their root back to Benin. I don't see why the Igbo east should have any problems with this. Mind you it's not Benin that are making all these claims or forcing these people to claim Benin root. But some of you just can't respect and allow people to be who they want to be.

Which other Anioma tribe do you want to know their history.

,