₦airaland Forum

Juliusmalema:
Ezechima, Issele uku and that's the defense then Bini.


Lol.

Chaiii.

people can be funny at times and this is one hell of it.

Abeg the Bini dey two or the one down there?

mtcheew.

If the defence is not enough, what about this from Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe.


Excerpt:
“One day I asked her (grandmother) the meaning of the word ‘Onitsha’. She explained that it had historical significance. The terminology meant one who despised another. It is a contraction of two words, Onini to despise, and Ncha meaning others. So that the two words when joined together mean one who despises others. Then I asked her why we despised others. She patted me on the back and told me that it was due to our aristocratic background and tradition. I insisted that she should explain to me the basis of this supercilious social attitude. She told me that we despised others because we descended from the Royal House of Benin and so regarded ourselves as the superiors of other tribes who had no royal blood in their veins, “
“I continued to belabor my grandmother to tell me more of the history and origins of the Onitsha people. She narrated that many many years ago, there lived at Idu (Benin) a great Oba who had many children. Due to a power struggle regarding the right of precedence among princes of the blood and other altercations, there was a civil war in Benin. One day, the supporters of one of the princes insulted and assaulted Queen Asije, the mother of of the Oba of Benin, who was accused of having trespassed on their farmland. Enraged at this evidence of indiscipline and lawlessness, the Oba ordered his war chief and brother, Gbunwala Asije to apprehend and punish the insurgents. In the attempt to penalise them, Chima, the ultimate founder of the Onitsha city-state, a prince of the blood in his own right, led the recalcitrants against his Uncle, Gbunwala. This intensified the civil war which rent the kingdom of Benin in two and led to the founding of Onitsha Ado N’Idu, , ” “As the great trek from Benin progressed, some did not have the stout heart of the pioneer-warrior, and decided to settle at different places, known today as Onitsha -Ugbo, Onitsha-Olona, Onitsha-Mili, Obior, Issele Ukwu, Ossomari, Aboh, etc,
” SOURCE – Nnamdi Azikiwe: My Odyssey, Chapter I (Spectrum Books, 1970) “My
Genealogy and Nativity” p 11 – 12

TAO11:
I am not sure what answer you're referring to as I haven't answered the question he asked me recently ---- At this point, I think you're already drowning in confusion.

The only 500 years gap I see is between you on one hand and sanity on another hand.

João de Barros, Duarte Pacheco Percira, Manuel de Figueirdo, Dierick Ruiters, and Alonso de Sandoval all published in the early1500s and the 1600s about the Ogane who was an overlord to your kings.

All the following scholars, examining those early European writings, conlude unanimously that the Ogane is none other that the Ooni of Ife:

Stoll (1902), Roth (1903), Marquart (1913), Talbot (1926), Schurhammer (1928), P. Marti (1960), Mauny (1961), R. Bradbury (1964), I. Akinjogbin (1967), R. Law (1973), F. Willett (1973), A. Obayemi (1976), R. Horton (1979), R. Thompson, H. Drewal, S. Blier, S. Akintoye, et al.

But somehow for you, they all must be lying.

Name me one indigenous Yoruba tradition/account which says that Oduduwa is from Mecca or Egypt.

Your dumbness is clearly self-inflicted.

You haven't been able to answer the simple question because you are still putting together a lengthy fabrication as answer. That's what you normally do.

It's a well established fact that until recently when it became shameful for some Yoruba, all early Yoruba history traces the origins of various Yoruba tribes to the middle east.. Egypt, Iran, Mecca and even Ethiopia. Ijebu even claimed Jerusalem was Jebu-Salem and that queen of sheba was buried in Ijebu Ode.

Even RamesseslV alluded to the Yoruba middle east origin claim in his question.

You can argue with yourself that Yoruba didn't claim to be from Mecca, Egypt and the middle east.

You guys are still here on various threads arguing with yourselves about your origin.

IDENNAA:
I see you are quick to accept this version. But , I didn’t see you jubilating over the link Redbonesmith posted.

BRIEF HISTORY OF ISSELE-UKU

As chronicled by Prince Chris Afumata Akeh- Osu in The History of Great Isi-Ile-Uku (Issele-Uku) Kingdom

Isi-Ile-Uku, “Issele-Uku” Kingdom was founded by the Binis in about 1230 AD by Oba Eweka 1 of Benin Empire and first Ogie of the kingdom was Prince Uwadiaie who was the second son of Oba Eweka 1.

The original name of the new kingdom carved out of Benin Empire “Isi-Ile-Uku” signifies relationship with the Benis and Oba of Benin-City ‘Uku akpolokpolo Omonoba n’edo’.

When Oba Eweka 1 created the new Benin outpost of Isi-Ile-Uku now pronounced Issele-Uku, his main objectives was to check and stop the influx of the movement of people from East of the River Niger, and people from Igala land into the Edo land West of the River Niger, for farming and fishing operations. Also to use Isi-Ile-Uku, the new outpost and kingdom, as a defensive outpost to the Benin Empire and moreover for expansion purposes.

Prince Uwadiaie, the second son of Oba Eweka 1, was crowned Ogie ‘King’ by his father Oba Eweka1 of Benin Empire about 1230 A.D. and sent to rule the Bini new kingdom of ISI-ILE-UKU in company of a group of Binis, worriors, administrators, chiefs and other princes of the royal family of Benin from Ogbe, Ehaekpen, Idumu Inaleibiwe, idumu Igun, Idumu Iken, Idumu Isama and Idumu Ugboka. Members of the royal family of Benin were settled at Ehaekpen of Issele-Uku.

These Bini quarters – Ogbe and Idumu are now called Isheakpe, Ogbidibo, Idumu-Inele Ebigwe, Idumu Uzu, Idumu Ikem, Idumu Ozoma, Idumu Onishe, Idumu Ihama, Idumu Isama and Idumu Edemoka “Umu edomoka” at Ogboli. The present language of the people of Issele-Uku has changed slightly the original pronounciations.

The Oba of Benin in the days of old had real suzerainty over the kingdom of ISI-ILE-UKU. The new kingdom of ISI-ILE-UKU was gladly hailed in Benin then as an Eastern extension of Benin empire. In fact, the kings of ISI-ILE-UKU have paraphernalia and relics of kingly office as the Oba of Benin and performs the same yearly festival – Ugie ro ‘Oba – “Uje ine Aho Obi” at Issele-Uku.

The kings of ISI-ILE-UKU “ISSELE-UKU” are the true representatives of the Oba of Benin in the area lying to the West of the River Niger and as such the Obi “king” of Issele-Uku has a position of authority as the oba’s authentic representative in the Eastern extremeties of the great Benin Empire

The custom and tradition of Benin is the same at Issele-Uku and the influence of Bini language can be noticed or traced in the Ika-Ibo language of the people of ISI-ILE-UKU “ISSELE-UKU”.

The Oba of Benin continues to crown the Obis of Issele-Uku until presently when he sends Chiefs to officiate for him on the crowning of any new Obi “king” of ISI-ILE-UKU “ISSELE-UKU”. Although the Ika-Ibo Language predominates at Issele-Uku nowadays and it was due mainly to the fact that there were more interactions with the later Ibo founded towns around Issele-Uku than Benin-City which is situated a long distance away

IDENNAA:
Your example of Igbo or people of south south bearing English name doesn’t hold water because English were invaders who literally imposed their culture on these people. On the other hand , the whole Ezechima clan never for one day spoke a word of Bini. You are beginning to sound pathetic with your lame comparisons. We are not invaders or empire builders, you are the one running around and terrorizing and killing Ezechima people. They left the vicinity of Bini because of war and arrived in my fathers land. We took them and cleaned them up and blessed them with our culture.

Agbor , indeed has a sizable Bini migrants but its eternerlly Igbo despite the Bini influence....when two cultures meet we will know who be oga. Ask Dein of Agbor to practice what he preach and change his name to non Igbo. At the end you can never claim Agbor because they are beginning to master Anioma central Igbo.....hahaha

Language and not name is the most important factor used to determine origin. Wouldn’t you agree

Olaudah Equanor left a child in a time the whole southern Nigeria was a thick rain forest. There were many inconsistencies with his book. If Onicha or anybody claim they are Bini then prove it , simply.

You can’t win this: all facts are squarely against you. If you claim you have found a medicine that could cure a certain disease you must prove it. The British anthropologist proved his knowledge with undeniable facts.

you are the one running around and terrorizing and killing Ezechima people

You know what you wrote above couldn't be further from the truth and a big lie you wouldn't be able to back up.

You claimed to be from Anambra or Imo but here to start making spurious claims on behalf of Anioma Ezechima people.

If the Dein of Agbor doesn't like his people promoting Igbo culture, why is that the fault of Benin.

If it was true Benin terrorised Ezechima people, the descendants will not trace their root to Benin, Zik will not claim Ezechima people are from the Benin royal household. Why will Benin terrorise her own people.

Olaudah Equiano never said anything about Benin terrorising his people of Anambra who were not Ezechima. He wrote in 1776 that although his people were under the Benin kingdom but they were allowed to rule themselves from minimum interference from Benin City, the kingdom's capital city.

There are still tribes across Anioma that still claim Benin ancestry, why would they be claiming those that once terrorised them.

The only people Benin used military force on were those rulers and kings that were rebellious, those that fell inline, never had any troubles from Benin.

Even though it's well established that Benin had a military garrison in Lagos as far back as 1603, have you ever read anywhere that there was war between Benin and Lagos.

BRIEF HISTORY OF ISSELE-UKU

As chronicled by Prince Chris Afumata Akeh- Osu in The History of Great Isi-Ile-Uku (Issele-Uku) Kingdom

Isi-Ile-Uku, “Issele-Uku” Kingdom was founded by the Binis in about 1230 AD by Oba Eweka 1 of Benin Empire and first Ogie of the kingdom was Prince Uwadiaie who was the second son of Oba Eweka 1.

The original name of the new kingdom carved out of Benin Empire “Isi-Ile-Uku” signifies relationship with the Benis and Oba of Benin-City ‘Uku akpolokpolo Omonoba n’edo’.

When Oba Eweka 1 created the new Benin outpost of Isi-Ile-Uku now pronounced Issele-Uku, his main objectives was to check and stop the influx of the movement of people from East of the River Niger, and people from Igala land into the Edo land West of the River Niger, for farming and fishing operations. Also to use Isi-Ile-Uku, the new outpost and kingdom, as a defensive outpost to the Benin Empire and moreover for expansion purposes.

Prince Uwadiaie, the second son of Oba Eweka 1, was crowned Ogie ‘King’ by his father Oba Eweka1 of Benin Empire about 1230 A.D. and sent to rule the Bini new kingdom of ISI-ILE-UKU in company of a group of Binis, worriors, administrators, chiefs and other princes of the royal family of Benin from Ogbe, Ehaekpen, Idumu Inaleibiwe, idumu Igun, Idumu Iken, Idumu Isama and Idumu Ugboka. Members of the royal family of Benin were settled at Ehaekpen of Issele-Uku.

These Bini quarters – Ogbe and Idumu are now called Isheakpe, Ogbidibo, Idumu-Inele Ebigwe, Idumu Uzu, Idumu Ikem, Idumu Ozoma, Idumu Onishe, Idumu Ihama, Idumu Isama and Idumu Edemoka “Umu edomoka” at Ogboli. The present language of the people of Issele-Uku has changed slightly the original pronounciations.

The Oba of Benin in the days of old had real suzerainty over the kingdom of ISI-ILE-UKU. The new kingdom of ISI-ILE-UKU was gladly hailed in Benin then as an Eastern extension of Benin empire. In fact, the kings of ISI-ILE-UKU have paraphernalia and relics of kingly office as the Oba of Benin and performs the same yearly festival – Ugie ro ‘Oba – “Uje ine Aho Obi” at Issele-Uku.

The kings of ISI-ILE-UKU “ISSELE-UKU” are the true representatives of the Oba of Benin in the area lying to the West of the River Niger and as such the Obi “king” of Issele-Uku has a position of authority as the oba’s authentic representative in the Eastern extremeties of the great Benin Empire

The custom and tradition of Benin is the same at Issele-Uku and the influence of Bini language can be noticed or traced in the Ika-Ibo language of the people of ISI-ILE-UKU “ISSELE-UKU”.

The Oba of Benin continues to crown the Obis of Issele-Uku until presently when he sends Chiefs to officiate for him on the crowning of any new Obi “king” of ISI-ILE-UKU “ISSELE-UKU”. Although the Ika-Ibo Language predominates at Issele-Uku nowadays and it was due mainly to the fact that there were more interactions with the later Ibo founded towns around Issele-Uku than Benin-City which is situated a long distance away

TAO11:
Does he read?

He has never cited one line --- even from a newspaper --- to 'buttress his bigotry'.

I didn't remeber to add:

S.P. Blier
H.J. Drewal
R.F. Thompson

To that boy, all these scholars are actually involved in some grand conspiracy because their parents are originally from Ife.

It's left for RamessesIV who asked the original question to be satisfied with your answer.

I am not face or convinced by your copy and paste rubbish. I don't read fabrications as history.

The fact remains that there will always be a 500 years gap between Benin written history and Ife written history.

Europeans started documenting Benin history in 1475 while you guys stated fabricating Ife stories in 1920.

Everyone knows how disjointed Yoruba history is, from Oduduwa coming from Egypt/mecca to the recent one of being a native of Ife and him being a Benin prince.

No matter what you write, copy and paste, none of the above will change.

No matter the number of people that repeat a lie, it will still remain a lie.

None of you have refuted that the original document states that Ogane of 1475 was

1. East of Benin

2. 20 moons journey from Benin

3. 900 miles from Benin.

This is what the original document says. No matter the recent manipulation and mutations, these 3 basic fact about the Oghene kingdom will not change and none of the facts above support Ife claim.

OgboAto:
You have not provided any non-material evidences to dispute your Kings have not been facing the East to say prayers for the Ooni.

You have not provided any material evidences to dispute the cross recorded by the Portuguese was not the same excavated in Ile-Ife.

You have not provided any scientific evidence showing any dated artifact to indicate that the periods of Bini arts were not post-Ife arts and as such, further refuting all of the content in the screen shot.

I am not interested in your own conjectures and what you think. You're not that educated and neither have you conducted, written and published any research article in your life - as such, your opinions are inconsequential here. Provide peer reviewed articles to augment each of your itemized claims.

Thank you.

A simple questions was asked about evidence to support the claim that Ife Bronzes were made in Ife and not brought by the people you claimed came from Egypt or Macca to colonised the people and land.

You have failed to produce any credible evidence to support the claims that the Bronzes dug up in Ife were made there by Ife people, you are asking me to provide evidence that Benin written history is 500 years older than Ife history that started in 1920.

Benin tell real history whilst you guys copy and paste stories that were written in 20th century.

If Benin tell you that they produce 20ft iron poles that houses oil lamps to light up the Palace and the square around the Palace 400 years ago, a precursor to modern Street lights and Benin being amongst the first few cities in world with semblance of Street lights, we back it up with an independent eyewitness written accounts that was written in that period, not some 1960 or 1980 fabrications.

OgboAto:
Calm down with the additions. I just needed to know if you agreed and since you've expressly said you do not doubt it, which means you completely believe that a certain Oghane that isn't the Ooni according to you gave the Benin king bass crosses as recorded by the Portuguese then what is your opinion as regards the non-material [Bini King saying prayer for the Ooni], material [excavated brass crosses in Ife] and scientific evidences [thermoluminescence dating] in the screenshot below - now you're going to have to carefully come up with an argument that is way superior to what is contained in the screenshot using the same non-material, material & scientific evidences bro

The book you provided was written in 1970, the page you requested I should read, referenced another book that was written in 1967.

Both your 1970 and 1967 authors are strainously trying to situate the Kingdom of Ogane in Ife.

The Portuguese who recorded the account, said the kingdom was east of Benin City, is Ife east of Benin City, the answer is no because Ife is West of Benin City.

The Portuguese writer stated that the distance of the Ogane kingdom from Benin City is 900 miles, is Ife 900 miles from Benin, the answer is no because Ife is only 171 miles from Benin City.

The Portuguese recorded the travelling time to be 20 months journey, Benin to Ife is not a 20 months journey because Benin was doing daily journeys from Benin to Lagos in 1603.

Others reasons why Ogane couldn't be Ife.

1. There is nothing in Yoruba/Ife history that say Ife used to be called Oghene.

2. Between 1475 to 1897 of recorded and written documentation of Benin history, there is not a single mention of Ife, Ooni, Oduduwa, Oranmiyan in Benin history.

Every other tribes and people encountered between 1475 and 1897 are all recorded in Benin history. People of Lagos, Akure, Ekiti, Owo, Agbor etc were all recorded but not a single thing about Ife.

If Benin had any relationship with Ife, there is no way that it wouldn't have been recorded for over 500 years of constant recording and documentation of Benin history by various Europeans.

You just can't wake up 500 years later, in 1967 or 1970 and claim Ogane is Ife, even though the description of Ogane and other evidences doesn't support the location of Ife. That is not history but wishful thinking of the authors.

What stops someone else from waking up tomorrow and claim the Ogane kingdom to be Kano or Sokoto. I hope you can now see why the need to adhere to credible evidence is very important in making any claim.

The evidences doesn't support Ife to be the kingdom of Ogane that was recorded in Benin around 1475.

You also can't make the spurious claim of Benin Bronze being influenced by Ife when there are no evidence to suggest that those Bronzes dug up in Ife were made in Ife and by Ife people.

The only people that this sort of history will make sense to are the Yorubas who only started recording Ife history from 1920.

Everyday since then, more and more fabrications are being authored and written to cover up for the 500 years gab between Benin history and Ife history.

OgboAto:
I am going to ask you just one Q.
Do you agree to the Portuguese account that a certain Oghene gave crosses to newly installed Bini kings in the time past?

Why should I doubt it, was I there 6oo years ago to know what the practice was?.

The Portuguese gave a detailed account of what he claimed he was told by a Benin informant, and gave a description of the location of the Oghene kingdom.

That kingdom cannot be Ife because of the description and account of the Portuguese. If the evidence points the Oghene kingdom to Asaba, Warri or Kogi and there is concrete prove for it, I will not only accept it, but will equally embrace it as a shared common history between Benin and those places.

Even if it can be proven that Benin accept crosses from another rulers, it doesn't affect the numerous other achievements recorded by the Benin empire.

In Europe, the history of Greece and Rome are celebrated as a shared common history amongst the European, nothing to be ashamed or feel inferior about.

OgboAto:
This is Leo Frobenius' thesis.
At the time Europe was awash with sentiments of the inferiority of the black man, he attempted to disprove his people but upon getting to Ife and seeing well crafted arts superseding an9ything that Europe has ever made [except the Greeks], he quickly attempted to appropriate the works for his people by claiming they were made by Etruscan [an ancient people indigenous to a part of modern day Italy but were annihilated by the Romans] and the mythical Atlantis people of ancient Greece.
Overall, this theory has been shattered, battered, brutalized & brought to its knees when equipment/tools used to make many of these art works were excavated in Ile-Ife between 1950s to 1980s.


P.S: This is the same way the wonders of Egypt has been white-washed. They've claimed & continued to push the narratives that Old Egypt wasn't primarily peopled by blacks but rather, the Kingdom had a population of varying races, including whites LOL! This has played out in how Hollywood rendered many Egypt-esque movies meant to push the narratives [and also to entertain]. However, the Egyptians left wall murals depicting they were mostly black skinned thankfully.

The reason for what you described above was possible was because of the lack of a written and documented history of the period and people that made the Bronze artworks.

If there were written documents of eyewitnesses that record the Bronzes being made in Ife by Ife people, it would have been very difficult for anyone to ascribed them to a different culture.

There is absolutely no doubt about the Benin Bronzes and the people that made them.

Whatever is written by Yoruba biased scholars later to correct whatever was previously written about the Ife Bronze by white racist are still subjective and biased narratives of the writer.

The fact that the Bronzes were dug up in Ife doesn't mean that they were made there and they weren't brought there from somewhere else.

RamessesIV:
Thanks I greatly appreciate your contribution,I did my own personal research but couldn't come to a conclusion that's why I asked it on here

I just wanted to point out that history could be very subjective and biased without concrete eyewitness collaborative evidence from the times and periods in discussion.

Imagine if a Yoruba historian was to write about the Nigeria civil war today, the historian will do everything possible to make the Yoruba and Awolowo look good.

Same way an Igbo historian will absorb the Igbo of any blame and make Ojukwu look good.

So, anyone reading both versions should ask for independent eyewitness accounts, that were written before and during the war. These eyewitness accounts will gives the reader an insight into the events leading to the war and what happened during the war.

Anything outside of these eyewitness accounts could become the subjective and biased opinion of the writer.

RamessesIV:
Thanks

I would love to seek your opinion since you have a vast knowledge and lots of resources on yoruba culture and i can trust you'll provide answer backed by evidence and not bigotry

1.what do you think of the claims that the ife arts are not indigenous to ife,i read somewhere that there is little proof that it was produced in ife rather was brought by Arabs or lost knowledge from egypt linking the semetic/hamitic theory of yoruba civilization,a yoruba-claimed historian on twitter said that the art works were "too sophisticated" to produced by yorubas judging by the level of architecture,metallurgy(whatever that means) hence it must have been gotten from connection probably trade or contact with foreigners hence "Arabs" or Egypt or,some others claim it was the Benin since Benin still have the culture and knowledge on how theirs were produced and ife do not

Am sorry to derail from the thread,but seeing that horse statue I thought i should ask,since you are one of the few here who tries to back up claims with evidence,and I would like the input of others also if they have necessary information. @macof

(And unlike also social medium nairaland has no "Dms',so thread would have to do).

You asked a very good question. I can tell you now that they will not be able to provide an answer that referenced the period in question because there is simply no written records of that period. What you will get as answer is going to be a biased opinion or narrative.

There is no written record of an eyewitness account of Ife society before 1900.

What you will get is a recently written fabrications presented as scholarly work. A modern biased interpretations of what happened centuries ago by those who were not eyewitness.

Apart from the Bronze arts being dug up in Ife, there is simply no record of artistic history that says they were made in Ife or Ife even had the tradition of Bronze casting. Benin could have tailor made those Bronzes for whoever took them there.

Don't be surprised if they come back with a Benin source or reference Benin for their answer.

Another example that they parrot is Ogane being Ife.

In about 1475 a Portuguese that visited Benin recorded that he was told by a Benin resident and informat that there was another great kingdom that had relationship with Benin.

1. This kingdom was to the east of Benin

2. This Ogane kingdom was a distance of 250 leagues or 900 miles

3. The travelling time from Benin to this kingdom of Ogane was 20 moon or 20 months or 1 year 8 months.

Despite the fact that none of the above support Ife as being the location, they still point to some fictitious recent scholars that claim this kingdom is Ife.

For the benefits of doubt.

1. Ife is west of Benin not east as described by the Portuguese who recorded the conversion.

2. Ife is 171 miles from Benin, not 900 miles as recorded by the Portuguese.

3. There was no way the journey from Benin to Ife would have taken 20 months because another European recorded in 1603 that Benin was despatching 2 messagers every day from Benin military camp in Lagos to Benin City. Lagos to Benin is a distance of 201 miles, more than the distance from Benin to Ife.

So, you have to be very wary and mindful when you are given the so called scholarly works that were not written during the period in time as answer to your question.

Anybody can write some nonsense today and tell you that his nonsense opinion is the answer to what happened in 1535AD.

All they often do to disguise their lies and confused the less informed is simply tag their lies and personal opinions as archeological and anthropological findings.

If any Benin person tells you that they colonised Lagos as far back as 1603, demand for a written
independent eyewitness evidence or account that was written in 1603, don't accept or settle for anything written later than 1603. Don't accept historical opinions of some historians written in 1975.

Likewise, if any Yoruba person makes a historical claim, demand a written eyewitness accounts of the time and period in question, don't accept what may be an opinion of someone which is written centuries after the event.

How can someone accurately write about the events of 1600s, 1700s in 1984 and call it the absolute truth.

Anybody can write anything to support their history and put others down, which is why it's very important to demand for eyewitness accounts not opinions of those that were not there masquerading as scholars.

TAO11:
Oh, you were born before 2010 and you exist today is evidence that you exist between 2010 and 2011.

Yet Ife's existence by at least the 4th century BC and its existence today somehow doesn't answer dumb request.

Wait, are you a Bini? Cos only a Bini can be this strongly m0ronic.

What hurts your butt so badly is the attached historical reference which shows that the Ooni of was imperial, divine, and suzerain over your Benin Kingdom.

Ordinary Ibadan raided territories of your Kingdom for slaves and sacked many territories within your Kingdom.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

TAO11:
No, your ancestors were sacrificed to Yoruba gods by the monarchs of the Ife dynasty in Benin kingdom.

Having said that, the Ijebus never had such traditions of themselves, and even your copy & paste agrees that they never had such traditions of themselves.

The fact that a different sub-group makes a degrading claim about another sub-group doesn't make the claim true.

I think you are descended from the the sexual relationship of a particular Edo woman and an ape.

Is this true? Do you agree to this just because this is what I hold about you? 

Furthermore, the historian, Tunde Oduwobi who is also mentioned in your copy & paste also agrees with me that the "insult" is from outside of the sub-group.

And Reverend Johnson (who is not a historian) was simply collecting different traditions floating around regardless of which subgroup is narrating it, and about which subgroup it is being narrated.

cc: babtoundey

Since you want to continue flogging the issue rather than letting it rest, this is the history of Ijebu as written by Yoruba historians, both agreed on the servile nature of the Ijebus, whether it was the Benin that sacrificed them or Owu, it doesn't really matter. Both Yoruba historians agree that they were slaves, not Ife princes like you would like us believe here on Nairaland.

Both Johnson and Oduwobi agreed that the Ijebus were historically slaves. You now struggle to understand simple English.

Even the Ijebus themselves agree to be descendants of Oba-nita, a sacrificial victim of Owu.

Descendants of Yoruba and Benin sacrificial slaves come here daily to be casting aspersions on the princes and princesses of great Benin hiding under the myths of all Yoruba are princes from Ife.

If you are too blinded by bigotry to see and comprehend what was written, I am sure others will not so be blinded.

It will do you and the Ijebus good to leave this history the way it is because you can't spin it and produce Ife princes out of it. The more you engage on it, the more pages of Ijebu history will be created for those that haven't seen it to see.

Your lying condition is so bad, that you don't realise when you are caught in a trap and tight corner to escape quietly without causing yourself and people more embarrassment.

Let me see how you are going to convince me or any sane person that Ijebu history says they were princes from Ife and not the sacrificial slaves Yoruba history recorded them to have been.

You know that henceforth, your ass is literally my when I catch you writing nonsense about Benin.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

babtoundey:
Africa and the culture of human sacrifice goes handinhand. Even your ancestors were once sacrificed at the alter of ogun to placate and please imported gods.

No, my ancestors were not the ones that were sacrificed, according to Yoruba history and historians, it was my ancestors that used to sacrificed your ancestors, the Ijebus to our gods.

Please read it again below.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

babtoundey:
lol.

It is nice seeing you flog him up and down. One thing is just palpable; no matter how hard you try, he will not stop believing his fairytales. He seems to have chosen ignorance and arrogance as his closest pals

Trust me, I will feel the same way as you, if I had grown up to read the history that says my people were once sacrificed to the gods, especially if it was written by historians from my tribe/ethnicity.

You also seem to be saying Yoruba historians write fairytales.

If you are claiming that Yoruba historians write fairytales and Yoruba history is full of fairytales, then no one should believe anything that come from the Yorubas.

babtoundey:
Keep whining.
You would have loved it if it was Benin prince that gave Ife it's first king, ruling system, the gods they worship and amed their kingdom. That is a feat you will never attain and that is the reason why you're jumping up and down to thinker with the truth.

I am not saying anything new or even trying to thinker with the truth, I am only just quoting Yoruba historians that said the Ijebus were the people that were sacrificed to the gods. This history was not written by the Benin or any other people but Yoruba historians themselves. The history is out there for all to see.

Believe me when I say I know how you feel. It's very debasing of a Yoruba sub ethnic group.

babtoundey:
You sound pained, bittered and possessed. That must have been the result of your various fruitless effort to manipulate history and tell it the way you want. Your describing "omoluabis" with many opprobrium terms is nothing to worry about. After all you've called your oba and his ancestors liars, betrayals, deceptors and mordern Judas with faulty sense of dignity. So, why must I be bothered?

So, you now believe Samuel Johnson and other Yoruba historians? Are they not the ones that colluded with the Oba to favor the Yoruba and debase the position of the "Oba"? Once a clown..

Ijebu, Egbas, Awori, Ado, Owu, Ekiti and other groups in the present Yoruba group share common heritage; they all are children of kaaro oojira. There was no point in time when one of those groups existed isolation.

The position of the Oba of Benin is never debased whichever way you look at it. Whether you look at it from the Ife perspective or the Benin royal perspective, it puts the Benin royal stool in an enviable position which is different from people that were sacrificed to the gods by Benin as recorded by Yoruba historians themselves.

babtoundey:
Another annoying thing that is daily paraded here is there was nothing like "Yoruba" until year 2020. Who actually cares to know that? That was was never a term of name that bring all Yoruba together until recently doesn't mean the different people inhabiting the present day Yoruba land were oblivious of one another.

Many things that transcend name bond the Oyos, egbas, ondos, Ekiti, Ijeshas, Owus etc. They related as brothers with common history, ancestor, culture, social, religious and political values.

You mean this sort of common heritage as described below by fellow Yoruba historians.

You guys come here daily trying to use Benin to whitewash your past shameful history to unify yourselves. People that Yoruba history record and remember as former slaves and sacrificial goats to the gods are now all forming princes and Omoluabi from Ife.

The same people that their own Yoruba history record as former slaves that were sacrificed to the gods come here to argue the history of Lagos and Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos himself.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

[quote author=SilverSniper post=89038931]I don't necessarily endorse everything AreaFada2 claimed at all, but this is a bit wide of the truth, not only with respect to Benin, but also with regard to Yorubaland. I won't get into the issue of the slave trade and the Yoruba and Benin areas in any detail here, because these issues have been studied in great detail already by several scholars, and instead I'll just make a brief comment. Although it is true that the slaves that Oyo exported were captured from surrounding groups - this export to the coast (particularly the "Slave Coast" area of west Africa) of slaves (to be later sold to Europeans) taken in wars by Oyo is mentioned in European documents from the mid-1600s onward - it is also true that during the Oyo civil war and the subsequent wars in Yorubaland in the 19th century, there was a significant increase in slaves of Yoruba origin that were being sold to European slave buyers (there were already some Yoruba slaves in the slave trade prior to this, as various European documents from earlier centuries attest to; some of these may have come from Ijebu, which is noted as selling slaves in European sources).

I wouldn't say the Benin kingdom "did not participate" in the slave trade, but it was a very minor player compared to many other African kingdoms. The very strict restrictions on the slave-trade that Benin imposed - after the initial slave trade with the Portuguese that did occur for about three decades in the late 15th to the early 16th century - actually led to two centuries of there being practically no slaves exported from Benin to Europeans. Even after that two centuries, in the 18th century when the slave-trade did reemerge in Benin for some decades, the numbers involved were very small, especially when compared to some other prominent Nigerian and west African states. This is actually discussed and analyzed in detail in Ryder's 1969 book that you asked me about in that other thread, but there other scholars besides Ryder who reached a very similar conclusion independently of Ryder by simply looking at what the sources show.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

Samuk:

Please share the history of the various Yoruba tribes and clans as recorded by Yoruba historian themselves.

TAO11:
There was always a unified Yorubaland with a well defined territory.

They all call themselves Aku or Lukumi.

If beheading people is the evidence of the high status of the beheaded, then offer your head.

The Ijebus never had such traditions of themselves, and even your copy and paste agrees that they never had such traditions.

The fact that a different sub-group makes a degrading claim about another sub-group doesn't make the claim true.

I think you are descended from the the sexual relationship of a particular Edo woman and an ape.

Is this true? Do you agree to this just because this is what I hold about you?

Your insults is coming from you as someone from a rival group not a subgroup.

Johnson and other Yoruba historian that wrote Ijebu history are part of the same subgroup, why will they write such or make up such history if it wasn't true.

You all are trying to whitewash your previous past by attaching yourselves to the Ife myth. People who history catalogued as sacrifices to the gods are now suddenly princes from Ife.

When did Ijebu history change from being sacrificial people to the gods to becoming Ife princes.

Ijebu history was written by fellow Yoruba historians, so you can't claim ulterior motives or bad blood amongst the so called Yoruba.

Today everyone is suddenly from Ife.

Silversniper:

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

TAO11:
Yes, at that point in time in history Oyo considers itself to be the King among their peers. Yes. So?

And the Ijebus or anyone else have a right to any term that would describe all of them.

They preferred already existing umbrella terms which are politically neutral.


Your point here?

There was no such thing as a unified Yoruba land until the recent creation of Oyo r' Oba, Oyo is king of Yoruba.

Why was Benin so important to Ife so much so, that the heads of the Obas were buried in Ife.

Today everyone is suddenly from Ife.

When did the history of Ijebu changed from being the people that were sacrificed to gods to becoming Ife princes.

Silversniper:

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

TAO11:
An abroad-dynasty is not the same thing as colonization. Go back to class.

Moreover, Yorubaland extends beyond the shores of what later came to be Nigeria.

So, nothing is special about exhuming someone's skull. And if you insist othewise, you may offer your skull so that you can be satisfied that you're special.

Again, Igodomigodo is not Yorubaland. We only gave them a dynastic-monarchy.

No, there was always a Yorubaland, with a well defined territory.

You sneaked in the above boldened comment after I had already replied so I won't notice it.

Anyways, I did notice it.

Ijebu was always part of the Yoruba race. What they protested was the use of the term "Yoruba" as an umbrella term.

And the reason is well known. The term was originated by the Oyos as an Oyo supremacist term --- "Oyo r'Oba", that is Oyo is the King among their peers.

They preferred the prior ancient umbrella term such as "Aku" or "Lukumi".

A liar calling others a liar because the truth they utter hurt is butt so bad.

Thanks for letting us know that Ijebu were not cool with the recently politically created Oyo r' Oba. Indeed Oyo is the King among their peers because they are the one that had an empire.

TAO11:
Taking heads back home from abroad means abroad founded home. I actually wasn't expecting an unwarped reasoning from a Bini.

Again, other Yoruba Obas in Yorubaland are home.

What was so special about the Benin heads, you guys told us you also colonised Dahomey/republic of Benin, were heads of the rulers there also brought to Ife or there were/are no rulers of Yoruba descent in Dahomey.

There was no such thing as a unified Yoruba land until recently.

The Ijebus were not even seen as Yorubas because they have their own history which was different from other Yoruba tribes history.

After opening your mouth from ear to ear, I expect you to come back with more illogical lies as answer.

TAO11:
(1) Exhuming someone's head for burial indicate being special to you, right. I wish you will be special in this way.

(2) Because they are already at home in Yorubaland. The ritual practice of bringing 3rd reign Bini Obas' heads back home is to serve as a constant ritual reminder of the fact that Igodomigodo is abroad.

(3) Any Yoruba king buried anywhere within Yorubaland is buried at home. That's the whole point.

cc: Edeyoung

This only leads credence to Oba Erediawa's claim that the first Ooni was a Benin prince and Benin founded Ife, that's why no any other Yoruba Oba is allowed to be buried in the Ife holy land, except the greatest and the holiest of holy, the Oba of Benin.

Edeyoung:
The ooni should be represented as

Ooni of ife olu adeyeye ojaja11



From the comment alone from this thread it seems they are so many word that can be used to replace oba and serves as king names like
Olu (lord)
Kabiyesi(royal highness)

But you guys choosed oba to be a a general term for king

It is true benin never had connections with ife

You asked a very simple question that the Yoruba currently have no answer for but be rest assured that TAO11 will definitely come back with a manufactured lie as a reply, she is very good and efficient when it comes to manufacturing of fallacies.

The question remains.

1. What was so special about the Oba of Benin for their heads to be buried in Ife. Even though research have not found any evidence of this.

2. Why are other Yoruba Oba not taken to Ife for burial, not even the Alaafin was buried in Ife.

3. As it stands and if we are to believe the Yoruba, the must important monarchs in Yoruba history to be buried in Ife, (the cradle of Yoruba civilisation, the most spiritual and holy land of the Yoruba race) are Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, Ooni and Oba of Benin. Not even the Alaafin is granted that privilege.

Hopefully they can begin to see the implication of their by force fire brigade marriage between Benin and Ife.

This only leads credence to Oba Erediawa's claim that the first Ooni was a Benin prince and Benin founded Ife, that's why no any other Yoruba Oba is allowed to be buried in the Ife holy land of the Yoruba except the holiest of holy, the Oba of Benin.

Edeyoung:
Hair means eto and it is just one word for it......


I will give you a better example
Onisan(ass)
Ikebe(ass)
But the environment on this argument is different from the example given again we use both interchanging no one is more used than the other
The word ikebe got out from benin lexicon to nigeria music industry because it is more pleasing while pronouncing and sexy

Again the environment we are arguing this fact has to be considered while you're relating it to another scenario

We are arguing on the fact that benin and ife does not share connections so that is the environment we are arguing on
So you answer in accordance to that environment and not outside it........

They like to confuse issues by parroting the word Yoruba that was created recently.

Which of the tribes that now make up Yoruba introduced the word Oba into Benin lexicon?

If they argue that it came with Oranmiyan from Ife, was Ife using the Oba title for their kings or Ooni.

Do they have Oba in Ife or Ooni.

The used of the Oba title is recorded in Benin history as far back as 1400s AD, can the Yoruba point to an earlier written account of the Yoruba history that shows the title of Oba was used in Yoruba land earlier than Benin.

The Yoruba have to provide a written accounts that was written earlier than 1475 not some 1975 or 1984 fabrications that show that the title was being used in Yoruba land then.

TAO11:
Is this a way of admitting that the story popular among Binis that Ashipa (the first king of the present Eko dynasty) is a Benin indegene is a false story??

Otherwise you have to be clearer with what you're saying here.

The land called Eko that is now populated by various Yoruba tribes due to the close proximity of their various states to Lagos was founded by Benin and the monarchy and traditional institutions are of Benin. The monarchy have it's allegiance to Benin and not Ife the supposed cradle of the Yoruba race.

TAO11:
I have no problem with the Binis taking their kings as historians.

But for us, Akiolu is not a historian. He has only regurgitated one version of a popular story, not history.

And he issued a statement afterwards (having realized his bungle) to control his earlier bungle. He noted that only an idiot (like samuk) will say Lagos is not Yorubaland.

Even his own ancestry does not trace to Ashipa (the Ife).

His ancestry goes back to Ologun-Kutere, and from thence to Ilesha.

But does the Lagos dynasty have a relationship with the Benin dynasty? Yes!

But is the first King of Lagos a Bini indigene in any way shape or form? NO!

I have written that Benin have relationship with various Yoruba groups, I didn't say anything about Lagos being or not being Yoruba. You are the one that have problems with simple comprehension because your brain has been eaten up by bigotry.

I should discard what Omoluabi, the Oba of Lagos said about himself and his people and believe what Omo-ale like yourself who is probably not from Lagos is saying.

Amujale:
I aint claiming nothing.

One is simply following simple logic.

History isnt that hard to ascertain.

Eko predates Lagos.

What is the etymology for the term Eko?

In what language will we find the root word for Eko?

Incase you missed it. Please hear it from the horse's mouth, the Oba of Lagos himself.

History is history as told by the people and not what you wish it to be. Are you the custodian of Lagos history. Are you one of the chiefs of Oba of Lagos, I guess not and as a result, your logic doesn't count.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

TAO11:
There is no escaping your eternal servitude to your ancestral slave-masters.

And regarding Lagos, our first King is unrelated to Benin. Thief!

The current Oba of Lagos doesn't mix words when claiming Benin ancestry and he is a very proud son of Benin.

Lagos monarchy and traditional institutions don't recognise Ife but Benin.

Please remove the clogs from your ears and hear from the horse's mouth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

Amujale:
History is our responsibility, in certain cases we have to compromise for the greater good.

Most of my Binni friends love and respect their Yoruba history, my question to those minority members of the Binni community that think it nice to disrespect Yoruba culture at every given opportunity, who's side are you on?

Yoruba is an ethnicity, we will lose no sleep if we cut ties with you.

A word is enough for the wise.

Benin have relationship in the past with various tribes that are now part of the bigger Yoruba tribe/ethnicity.

The Benin recognise their relationship with the various tribes from western Nigeria at various times in history.

Benin doesn't recognise a general relationship with the recently created larger Yoruba group.

There is very little to write about Benin/Ijebu relationship for example and an Ijebu person hiding under the name Yoruba to claim some relationship with Benin will be a lie.

Benin/Lagos relationship, Benin/Owo, Benin/Ekiti and Benin/Akure relationships are more grounded and have far more historical authenticity to them than Benin/Ife relationship that was fabricated in 1930.

Whilst the Benin acknowledges our various relationships with various Yoruba tribes, we will not accept and tolerate any historical fabrications with any group under the umbrella name of Yoruba.

If you are claiming Benin/Yoruba relationship, you have to be specific and not muddle things up. Benin doesn't and didn't have a general relationship with all Yoruba tribes.

Benin/Lagos relationship is seen as father and son relationship.

Benin/eastern Yoruba was filled with wars and bloodshed.

RedboneSmith:
I was not even talking about whether Anioma should be Igbo or not, but about the variety within oral traditions.

This is a very deflective response. But it's okay.

The variety within Ora tradition should be respected, I have consistently say this.

If a man from Agbor says he is from Nri, it shouldn't be in our place to say he is lying because we don't like what he said. Likewise if a man from Onitsha says his ancestors were from Benin, we should also respect that man's history and not try to rewrite his history for him.

We shouldn't be telling people who they should be. You can't force me to be a Yoruba person when I don't see myself as one, I have to be comfortable with it. Same way I will not force anyone to be Benin or Igbo if they are not comfortable with it.

We must respect and allow people to be what they want to be. If the Dein of Agbor is not comfortable being Igbo we should respect that and allow him to be who he and his people want to be.

Anytime an Anioma or Rivers person say they are not Igbo, you guys equates that to mean they are claiming Benin, even without the people saying so.

The tribes that made up old Benin empire were allowed to maintain near total independence, independence that some of them would like to still maintain if they have to be part of the new kid on the block, the Igbo nation. These tribes are only resisting being called Igbo because of the fear of totaling losing their languages and cultures to the larger Igbo, which didn't happen in the past when Benin was in charged, even with guns blazing.