₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
I already know there are some artworks called Benin artworks and I know there are some YouTube videos of them such as those above. I also know that scholars found that the Ife artworks are more sophisticated and more antique than any workfrom Benin Kingdom. All these I already knew.


What I didn't know which I just knew, however, is that jealousy led you to make reckless laughable supposition which you're now seriously struggling to dissociate yourself from.

No! Your ineffectual distractions only serve to magnify your disgrace further. The issues remain those found in these links. Cheers!

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/44#88731083

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/45#88733590

While you know what you know in your little enclave, the world is daily learning about Benin empire and history in their museums, they are having seminals, debates and lectures arguing about Benin.

Good to know it is not only on Nairaland that the history of Benin is daily being debated. It is happening across the world. Such is the importance of Benin to the world.

Now that I am almost through with my amala with ewedu and gbegiri, I need to step it down with isiewu and change the music from Ebenezer Obey to Osita Osadebe. Others can be prisoners of their little enclaves while I enjoy whatever goodies every culture have to offer.


Meanwhile, see the link to the photo of late Ooni using the Benin traditional sword/sceptre, Ada. I guess it will be shameful for any Ooni to use it today because of trying to form superiority.

Late Ooni Sijuade beside him is an ADA hoisted, that clearly prove what we have been saying. Ooni carrying the royal emblem invented by Ogiso Ere in about 107AD. Make una commot shame for face una be our children.
N.B: They will never make this picture public because of its implications but thank God say we dey burst their bubble all the time.

Oba gha tokpere. Ise

https://www.facebook.com/100003470195379/posts/2837851166340529/

TAO11:
YouTube videos confirming the super-advanced marauding ancient Ife military with the ability of looting memories and arts?? ?? ?? ?? /s

When they can't defend their own jealousy-induced jokes, they move to invoke poorly thought-out boomeranging diversionary tactics, just to to save face and give an impression of response.

My Request: "Give me proof that Ife once had such a military genius with the ability of en masse looting of both the artworks and the collective memories of an anonymous leading black African civilization".


Response: "Well, Binis till date can still remember how the British looted many non-naturalistic artworks from Benin Kingdom in the year 1897, and took them to Europe. There are YouTube videos to prove this".


Me: May be the British Empire is the modern reappearance of ancient Ife afterall. May be, who knows? /s


I am fairly certain that both Bovi and BasketMouth combined can not produce funnier jokes than those I'm reading from Benin Nairalanders today.


A Final Note:
It has never occurred anywhere (whether in videos, journal articles, books, essays, ... anywhere) where any scholar ever ranked Benin artworks over Ife artworks using any criteria whatsoever. Never! Abomination! It has never happened. It is always the other way round.

Cheers to sane Nairalanders.

I was willing to pay any amount just to see your face when those video clips popped up on your screen, I hope you didn't break your screen in anger.

While the children of hate continue to hate in Nigeria, the world is daily learning about Benin empire and history. They don't even have to travel to Nigeria for those history lessons.

Benin doesn't even have to teach their history anymore, people of the world now teaches Benin history to themselves and their children because it's world heritage and Benin's contributions to the world.

Abeg let me go and look for a cool spot to eat my amala and ewedu/gbegiri soup while listening to Ebenezer Obey for a change.

TAO11:
Hahahahhahaha ...

Once upon a time, the art historian and archaeologist, Frank Willet wrote as follows about the Ita-Yemo, Ife artworks:

"Here unquestionably were art works of first importance ... They were so very different from any works of negro art, and so very sophisticated in a European manner that they stood apart from the rest of African sculpture."

Frank Willett, "Bronze and Terra-Cotta Sculptures from Ita Yemo, Ife", The South African Archaeological Bulletin, Vol. 14, No. 56 (Dec., 1959), p.135.

The foregoing laughable, jealousy-induced Nairaland comments finally come to prove my argument that Ife had a super-advanced military ascendancy which overshadows even the leading black African civilization that must have produce such "art works of first importance". /s

It takes a super excellent military ascendancy to successfully clash with a leading black African civilization and despoil some of its most treasured national assets. /s

These national assets were so despoiled by the invading Ife military to the extreme extent that almost no trace of such specific "eloquent [art] of a symmetry, a vitality, a delicacy of form directly reminiscent of ancient Greece" were left remaining on the foreign African soil of its "original" producers. /s

This implied imagery of ancient Ife's military ascendancy over black Africa reminds me of a sad incident which took place in Benin kingdom in the year 1897 when some invading devilishly powerful foreign military grounded and despoiled Benin. The dark memories of this ugly incident is not quick to escape the minds of the Binis even till date.

How come, then, that those anonymous people whom Ife conquered and despoiled from are quick to forget absolutely everything of such an ugly historical incident, to the extent that nothing of such ugly incident is recollected in their traditions, or in the traditions of their conqueror (i.e. Ife)?? /s

The simple explanation for this is that: alongside their artworks, the invading Ife army also looted their collective memory and their collective sense of history. /s

The latest:
When I say: "Britain is Ife", you say "Benin is Anonymous".

Jealosy-induced jokes will always remain what they are anyways!


Cheers to sane Nairalanders!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8flCwvoAU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IlUMUGUorw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duy5bhrRkqs

TAO11:
Hahahahhahaha ...

Once upon a time, the art historian and archaeologist, Frank Willet wrote as follows about the Ita-Yemo, Ife artworks:

"Here unquestionably were art works of first importance ... They were so very different from any works of negro art, and so very sophisticated in a European manner that they stood apart from the rest of African sculpture."

Frank Willett, "Bronze and Terra-Cotta Sculptures from Ita Yemo, Ife", The South African Archaeological Bulletin, Vol. 14, No. 56 (Dec., 1959), p.135.

The foregoing laughable, jealousy-induced Nairaland comments finally come to prove my argument that Ife had a super-advanced military ascendancy which overshadows even the leading black African civilization that must have produce such "art works of first importance". /s

It takes a super excellent military ascendancy to successfully clash with a leading black African civilization and despoil some of its most treasured national assets. /s

These national assets were so despoiled by the invading Ife military to the extreme extent that almost no trace of such specific "eloquent [art] of a symmetry, a vitality, a delicacy of form directly reminiscent of ancient Greece" were left remaining on the foreign African soil of its "original" producers. /s

This implied imagery of ancient Ife's military ascendancy over black Africa reminds me of a sad incident which took place in Benin kingdom in the year 1897 when some invading devilishly powerful foreign military grounded and despoiled Benin. The dark memories of this ugly incident is not quick to escape the minds of the Binis even till date.

How come, then, that those anonymous people whom Ife conquered and despoiled from are quick to forget absolutely everything of such an ugly historical incident, to the extent that nothing of such ugly incident is recollected in their traditions, or in the traditions of their conqueror (i.e. Ife)?? /s

The simple explanation for this is that: alongside their artworks, the invading Ife army also looted their collective memory and their collective sense of history. /s

The latest:
When I say: "Britain is Ife", you say "Benin is Anonymous".

Jealosy-induced jokes will always remain what they are anyways!

Cheers to sane Nairalanders!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8flCwvoAU

gregyboy:
Yea you got a point there thought like this had crossed my mind,
What if ife art was not made in ife they probably found it somewhere and they began worshiping the artwork as gods and even began practicing the facial scarification on the artworks taking a look at the artworks non of this artwork really describes the dressing of a Yoruba man
Because they were dound in ife doesn't make them ife artworks

In the past fossils of animals that were met to be native to Africa were found in different continents and because the scientists at the time couldn't explain how such animals could have crossed the vast oceans and seas to get to where they were found in prehistoric times before humans were able to make canoes and ships, they assumed that those animals must have evolved in those continents.

It was when it was discovered in 20th century that the entire landmass of the earth used to be one unbroken piece, that it became clear to scientists that those animals must have crossed from Africa to those continents before the continent broke away from each other and the spaces between them filled with oceans and seas.

The continent is still drifting apart, albeit in centimetres every year.

The fact that some artworks were dug up in Ife doesn't mean that those artworks were originally made in Ife.

TerraCotta:
I’ll try to keep this short so it’s not an intimidating read but hopefully this will help dispel some of the falsehoods and misunderstandings I’m seeing on this thread.

There seems to be some confusion about what constitutes “history” and why archaeology and anthropology are key to our understanding of the African and global past, even with cultures that have thousands of years of “written” history.

The word “archaeology” quite literally means “ancient history” in Greek (from arkhaios = “old, ancient”; logos = “words, study”) but is defined as “the study of human history and prehistory through the excavation of sites and the analysis of artifacts and other physical remains.”

It’s quite acceptable as evidence of past events and is often the sole means of determining the events of evolution of “prehistory”. In some cases, archaeology may supersede or be trustworthy evidence than written chronicles, which can obviously be incomplete. This is obvious from examples in European or Asian history, where archaeologists recovered the sites of ancient Troy and Crete or the Chinese “Terracotta Army” of China’s first emperor on the basis of oral traditions, despite not being fully identified by written records alone. Obviously we have no written records for the period of human evolution or when dinosaurs roamed the earth, so archaeology is the key discipline in investigating those eras.

I don’t know of any serious historian in the world that would discount archaeology or anthropology and their value in helping us fill in the (very large) gaps in the written record anywhere in the world, in any period and for any group. Two short examples should demonstrate this clearly:

A) A few weeks ago, an archaeological report added significant new information to what we know about London’s past, suggesting it’s 3000 years older than previously believed : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/london-history-prehistoric-ceremony-site-archaeology-a9455621.html

B) Last year, other archaeologists look at material evidence from the Woodstock concert in 1968, and found contradictions with the eyewitness recollections of an event that happened just 50 years ago, with living attendees: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/archaeologists-find-woodstock-really-did-take-life-its-own-180972504/

These disciplines are even more important in places like the vast majority of Africa, where there are very few indigenous written languages and records (although more are still being identified) and only slightly more written observations from foreign visitors.

Archaeology is actually just one branch of the larger science of anthropology. This field includes the disciplines of /biological/ or /physical/ anthropology—the basis of current human DNA analyses and migration, fossil records of dinosaurs and so on; /cultural/ or /social/ anthropology, which analyzes past and current societies and the economic, religious etc. changes they have undergone; /linguistic/ anthropology, clearly focused on the evolution of languages; and archaeology, which has been defined above.

I genuinely hope this helps some people understand why we need all these disciplines (along with specialists in art history, chemical analysis and other fields) to get a full picture of the human past.

No doubt archaeology is important in studying and telling ancient histories but those archeological histories could be misrepresentation of the facts without a collaborative eyewitness accounts.

Now let me give few examples to buttress my point.

1. During WW11, between 1940 to 1945 the German Nazi looted artworks, currencies, gold, silver, diamond, etc, across Europe and from their victims especially the Jews. The estimated value of their loot at that time was €450 million, which is an equivalent of billions of dollars in today's value.

These items were stored and hidden in Wintershal AG's Kaiseroda potassium mine at Merkers. The America soldiers discovered this location by accident.

If this incident had happened thousands of years ago, during the ancient period of no written records, and these items were discovered today, would it be right for any archeologists to conclude that this items were made or manufactured in the location they were found.

What if the items found in Ife were also stolen from somewhere else and hidden in what would have been a forest centuries ago, what if there was a market in that location for the sales of such items.

How do you come to the conclusion that those artworks were actually made in Ife and that they were not brought down there. What happened to the ancient craft men that would have made them.

Archeologists may be able to tell few things about the items they are studying but not necessarily the true stories of how the items go to that locations.

2. Even after the German Nazi loot were discovered, some soldier who were transporting the loot back to headquarters stole some gold bars and other items which they hide in the forest to be retrieved later, but years later when they returned, they couldn't locate the location because the landscape had changed due to vegetation. These golds and other items remained buried till now. When they are found in the future, it will be wrong to say they were made in their current hidden locations.

Are there any collaborative eyewitness accounts of Bronze casting in Ife before few items were dug up from the ground.

If there were Bronze casters, what happened to them and why did they go into extinction.

Nicely written, you make the Edo people proud by speaking with wisdom, logics and facts. Well done.

Thanks, at times you just have to break it down in the language they can understand and can hardly argue with without ridiculing and making themselves look stupid.

They run into the thread with insults and when you break it down to them, the sensible ones leave without a fight.

The guy argued that what Zik wrote was a fabrication from his uneducated grandmother.

What about Olaudah that was an eyewitness to the events he wrote about in the 1700s.

What did Zik stands to gain to fabricate his history in retirement after achieving everything achievable in life.

Some of them are just too ignorant.

davidnazee:
Here’s a screenshot from his book. You can read about him and his work on jstor.

In today Nigeria, the Westerners and easterners equate population size to great historical achievements, which is the reason they keep referring to the size of Benin in their arguments and those amongst them that should know better are blinded by bigotry.

Most Yoruba can not tell you their real/Ife history ealier than 1930, if you push them further, you may be lucky to get as far back as 1850, anything beyond that, they will need the aids of archeologists and anthropologists to start explaining myths as history.

Most Igbo are even worse than the Yoruba, majority of them don't know their history beyond 1966, you push them further, you may get to 1914 and anything earlier, they start to call on archeologists and anthropologists.

The Yoruba started their Oduduwa republic with the Ife myth while the Igbo are using Nri for their Biafra. Yoruba wants to erase every town and city in Yoruba land that had Benin influence and replace them with Ife, everybody in Yoruba land are suddenly now from Ife including those whose history predates Ife by centuries.

The Igbo who would also like to replace all Benin influenced kingdoms in south south and south east with their Biafra project are having even tougher times than the Yoruba. How would you expect the Obi of Agbor to recognise any Eze in south east as his superior.

Unfortunately for both east and west, Benin history is written, not just oral, legends and myths. They can be referenced.

You have just referenced Olaudah Equiano book that was written in late 1700s and it puts the heart of Igbo land firmly under the control of Benin kingdom.

They would like to rubbish Zik for his autobiography, what about Olaudah. These guys think history are made up stuffs, history is created.

You don't just wake up and pronounce greatness on your self, you create it.

The Yoruba and Igbo are having same problems, they want to tell all sorts of stories as history, when you challenge them to produce concrete eyewitness written accounts as evidence, they start calling on the works of archeologists and anthropologists for interpretations, which are merely opinions of those individual experts.

IDENNAA:
Obi of Onicha will never break kola before Eze Nri , Igwe Orizu, or even Eze Uzu. However, he is the most politically disposed traditional ruler. Obi Achebe knows this. When Anambra people gather Onicha men keep low profile....I am sure you don't know this. You must think Onicha people had some elevated status...lol


Onicha people lived in the area known Midwest and researchers could prove the location. However, they have tonns of relatives in Anioma and we can use them as historical markers.

Nothing ever suggested Onicha people were speaking Bini at some point in their existence....nothing. They and Aboh people were the first Igbo encountered by the White explorers....lol

Okay, I get it, you are saying that Onitsha people are mid Westerners who migrated into Anambra state and keep a low profile when the real indigines are gathered and their Obi will never break kola when some Ezes are present and Zik and his grandmother didn't know what they were saying when they claimed to have come from Benin.

Who can argue with a man of knowledge like you that is more smarter, cleverer and knowledgeable than Zik and his grandmother put together.

Case closed then, we can all go and rest now.

IDENNAA:
Like I told you , people who share borders have a high rate to exchange cultural ideas. If your people were so numerous and influential we would have seen that in your region. All we see are borrowed traditions.

You want to believe Zik's story so quickly but you conveniently ignored the accounts of appointed anthropologists who documented the what they observed and were told when they arrived the Niger.

Didn't your Oba borrow cassock from the Portuguese?

Another archeological and anthropological kind of history, did you guys planned it. I beg, make I find something better to do.

IDENNAA:
If you were any smarter than I thought then I would have you know that Bini once used the ancient Igbo days of week before they created one after the arrival of the whites. Uhrobo , Igala etc also practice some ideas they learned from the Igbo yet we knew better not to base that on common ancestry. Before who share bother exchange ideas but that is never a pointer to shared ancestry.

Have you ever wondering why in spite of all the story about Onicha Bini ancestry nobody has ever presented facts ? Its because they don't exist. Onicha has no single factor we could use to verify the purported Bini ancestry. The eben could be borrowed, so was the Iyasele title , Esogba etc but these were very dismissive materials holds no weight for scrutiny.

In Anambra , we have a variant of Agbogidi, Ogalagidi of Aguleri. I told you Bini is very young. You actually borrowed many things from Nri. Many traditional rulers in SE carries eben. Not a big deal....Bini were not the first to make swords

And yet you accused Osagyefo98 of writing gibberish.

The truth is the highest ranking Igbo traditional ruler is the Obi of Onitsha, whether you admit that he is a Benin descendant or a returnee refugee from Benin as you would like to believe, he is still your highest ranking traditional ruler.

IDENNAA:
Holler when you can present facts that proves Zik was correct.

Are you sure you will be able to handle the facts.

The truth starts from the Benin meaning of the title, Agboghidi/agbogidi of Obi of Onitsha himself. Then the Benin Eben, traditional sword of authority he carrys, I am not sure any other traditional rulers use it in Igbo land.

You only need to follow Zik autobiography and the traditional sword back into Anioma to know those with Benin kingship.

Anyway, we are not going to turn this thread into Benin/Igbo relationship thread. You guys can create another thread for that purpose.

IDENNAA:
I , personally, don't agree the Owelle Osowa-Anya believed that Bini ancestry. Rather , I have a big problem with Bini revisionists masturbating on the lame story because you want Onicha so badly because of our culture , commerce and strategic position. It ' d be much easier for you to claim Igbanke and Agbor than Onicha. But , again , Agbor has been heavily Igbonized and their Obi is pissed...lmao

What is this? Damaged control? After insulting the great Zik, his grandmother and the entire people of Onitsha.

If Zik didn't believe what he wrote, why did he write and publish it. Whether you guys like it or not, it's now part of Zik's history.

The question still remains, why would Zik fabricate his history in retirement after achieving every thing possible in life, after getting to the level majority of you and members of your families that are insulting him, will never attain.

IDENNAA:
They prey on gullible and inferior minded western peripheral Igbo to grow their little chiefdom and rack up some political influence to their own selfish interest. Egypt will never rise again !!

You guys are very funny, your brother, Osagyefo98 came here and wanted to use the Name of Zik to gloat and raise his shudders over Benin because of the role Zik played in the actualization of the Mid West region.

He even accused the Benin of hating Zik and that Zik will be regretting in his grave.

Your brother was told that no one hate Zik in the entire mid west and he was reminded not to raise his shudders and gloat too much because we see Zik as one of our own and I provided prove in Zik's own voice.

You are now angry that I have wiped the shine off your faces, because you wanted us to celebrate Zik's help as Igbo help to mid west, Zik's Benin ancestral lineage just spoil everything.

Zik's role in the actualization of mid west is seen as help from a son of the soil and son of the Oba of Benin. So deal with it.

IDENNAA:
Bini will never grow bigger than it is today , rather it will keep reducing. You lot need to understand that time changes and this influence so many factors that might favour you or not. If I were you I would be very nice to the Igbos because your unimaginable will happen , eventually.

Rome, Athens, Istanbul are all smaller than they used to be, why should Benin be different. Assuming you even get the gist.

IDENNAA:
Not so fast. You believe an obvious fabrication because it makes you feel good but when they Yoruba boys pull the same card you cry blue murder. You are a disgusting hypocrite...Bini my a.ss. You people are mischievous as a devil.

Bleep Zik and his unlettered grand parents...Bring a historian forth! Zik story is a mockery to students of history and anybody that believes it is a miserable and pitiful. You Bini people are shameless including your little god, Oba Akhenzua II. Onicha Ado has absolutely nothing to suggest a Bini ancestry

If you are accusing Zik of fabrication, the question any sane person would like to know is, why would the great Zik of Africa, first president of Nigeria fabricate his history and what did he stand to gain after attaining the highest pinnacle of governance in Nigeria.

What does this great man stand to gain to fabricate his history in retirement after he had achieved everything achievable and possible in life and in Nigeria.

IDENNAA:
These Bini delusionists act like Zik's story is the holy grail of unwritten history. Zik is not a historian, just an uninformed observer regurgitating what he was taught

Zik story has been presented the way it was written, why shot the messager.

IDENNAA:
During the Ofala, the youths of Onicha came out in traditional regalia representing all major Nigerian ethnic groups including Yorubas, Igala , Efik, Hausa etc.

Stop harping on a research loss story told by a people w/o a documented history...a history that can't be proved by facts on grounds. No historian ever attributed Onicha ancestry to Bini.

According to HRH Agbogidi Obi Achebe " the case of Onicha is a reverse migration " , " we are Igbos"....deal with this

Your argument and displeasure should rather be with Zik and his grandmother, or don't you think so.

Osagyefo98:
Nri rather@ strike.

Now this is one of the problems you guys are having here. You are trying to refute a logic and propaganda and you are also trying to create new one here with azikiwe.

Calm down and let all logic be neutral and independent. That's what I want this argument to achieve.

You think Zik and his grandmother didn't know about Nri when Zik wrote his autobiography.

Did any Benin person force Zik to write what he wrote, did Zik even say he went to Benin to do his research.

Zik quoted his grandmother, how old do you think Zik's grandmother would have been considering that Zik was born in 1904.

If you decided to look the history back logically, Zik grandmother would have certainly be born in the late 1700s or sometimes in the 1800s, few generations from when Oba Esigie that Zik grandmother mentioned ruled Benin.

Do you even realised that during the 2019 Onitsha Ofala festival, the Onitsha youths, both men and women came out in Benin traditional attire, I guess you are not even from Onitsha.

Benin culture was fully represented.

What makes you guys think you know the history of Zik's lineage and Onitsha people more than Zik.

Like I said before we shouldn't start discussing Benin relationship with various Igbo tribes on this thread.

Benin empire interacted with almost every tribes in southern and middle belt Nigeria.

https://www.nairaland.com/5466682/onitsha-ofala-festival-obi-onitsha#83046283

valirex:
Can I have this PDF?

Another way to make the read easy is only to read the replies from the Benin contributors only. You can scroll through each page reading replies and posts from:

Samuk
Areafather
Gregyboy
Davinazee
Ghoswon
Silversniper

valirex:
You still haven't answered my question, I need your view of what I asked

There are more than enough on this thread to answer any questions you have. You just need to go back and read from the beginning. I know it's hard work but it will give you better understanding rather than repeating from the start what has already been explained.

Osagyefo98:
Not interfering in the historical paths just I decided to give you the name of the man that made Mid-west possible. Same man you guys hate so much.

I think by now he will be regretting his actions in his grave and should allowed you all to be in Western region and become fully yorubanised...at least by now you all will be full blown Yorubas.

How can any sane Midwesterner or Bendelite or Edo/Delta person hate their own son Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe. A very proud Benin descendant that wrote a whole book to celebrate his Benin ancestral lineage.

It's the Igbo that hate Zik for telling the truth in his autobiography.

You are just desperately looking for how to start another ethnic tribal war on Nairaland between Benin and Igbo and hopes the Benin lectured you along the way about various Igbo tribes, the way Yorubas were schooled and they finally run away.

Hope nobody will have your time. Go and read Zik autobiography and come back and tell us why will any Edo/Delta person hate him.

Zik was very much loved and we will continue to love, cherished and see him as one of our own. It's some Igbo people that hate him for his truth.

If Zik have any regrets, it will be against ignorant Igbo like yourself who are calling him stupid for writing about his Benin root.

If you guys have any issues about what he wrote, you wait until you meet him to confront him and ask him for further explanations, those of you that can't wait, reserve the right to immediately go and meet him wherever he his to confront him and leave Benin out of it.

Find yourself a copy of Nnamdi Azikiwe autobiography and history of Onitsha people to read.
Below is an extract.

Nnamdi Azikiwe: My Genealogy and Nativity

"Thus, in tracing my paternal lineage, I could say that both parents of my father are direct descendants of Eze Chima. As for me, I can trace my paternal ancestry in this wise: I am the first son of Chukwuemeka, who was the third child and first son of Azikiwe, who was the second son of Molokwu, who was the third son of Ozomaocha, who was the second son of Inosi Onira, who was the fourth son of Dei, the second son of Eze Chima, the founder of Onitsha." SOURCE - Nnamdi A zikiwe: My Odyssey, Chapter I (Spectrum Books, 1970) "My Genealogy and Nativity" p4 "I can trace my maternal ancestry thus: I am the first son of Nwanonaku Rachel Chinwe Ogbenyeanu (Aghadiuno)Azikiwe, who was third daughter of Aghadiuno Ajie, the fifth son of Onowu Agbani, first daughter of Obi Udokwu, the son who descended from five Kings of Onitsha. Five of these rulers of Onitsha were direct lineal descendants of Eze Chima, who led his warrior adventurers when they left Benin to establish the Onitsha city state in about 1748 AD." SOURCE - Nnamdi Azikiwe: My Odyssey, Chapter I (Spectrum Books, 1970) "My Genealogy and Nativity" p5 "One day I asked her (grandmother) the meaning of the word 'Onitsha'. She explained that it had historical significance. The terminology meant one who despised another. It is a contraction of two words, Onini to despise, and Ncha meaning others. So that the two words when joined together mean one who despises others. Then I asked her why we despised others. She patted me on the back and told me that it was due to our aristocratic background and tradition. I insisted that she should explain to me the basis of this supercilious social attitude. She told me that we despised others because we descended from the Royal House of Benin and so regarded ourselves as the superiors of other tribes who had no royal blood in their veins....." "I continued to belabor my grandmother to tell me more of the history and origins of the Onitsha people. She narrated that many many years ago, there lived at Idu (Benin) a great Oba who had many children. Due to a power struggle regarding the right of precedence among princes of the blood and other altercations, there was a civil war in Benin. One day, the supporters of one of the princes insulted and assaulted Queen Asije, the mother of of the Oba of Benin, who was accused of having trespassed on their farmland. Enraged at this evidence of indiscipline and lawlessness, the Oba ordered his war chief and brother, Gbunwala Asije to apprehend and punish the insurgents. In the attempt to penalise them, Chima, the ultimate founder of the Onitsha city-state, a prince of the blood in his own right, led the recalcitrants against his Uncle, Gbunwala. This intensified the civil war which rent the kingdom of Benin in two and led to the founding of Onitsha Ado N'Idu....... ..." "As the great trek from Benin progressed, some did not have the stout heart of the pioneer-warrior, and decided to settle at different places, known today as Onitsha -Ugbo, Onitsha-Olona, Onitsha-Mili, Obior, Issele Ukwu, Ossomari, Aboh, etc..." SOURCE - Nnamdi Azikiwe: My Odyssey, Chapter I (Spectrum Books, 1970) "My Genealogy and Nativity"

ghostwon:
I really have to focus on my work now, I will soon deactivate my account.

I can be reached at ghostwonwon@gmail.com

Sure

ghostwon:
The misconceptions of many Yoruba is that the Edo will believe anything so long it is said by a white man.
This is how the yoruba misread the meaning of the word history itself.
Indeed, the Edo are attached to actual history: documents written by eyewitnesses !
It is only coincidental that most of the eye witnesses who could write were white.
If they had been blue, or yellow or black. It wouldn't make a difference ! So long it was written by an eyewitness.

While the Yoruba believe that if they have managed to hoodwink a white man and have him parrot a Yoruba-centric tale, then they have successfully rewritten history and the Edo would have to swallow the yoruba lies.
I believe this very strategy comes from the yoruba slave returnees who sought to take advantage of colonisation by their those they called the colonial masters and whom they previously just called masters.

Their European supporters are usually those they feed their lies and just regurgitating what they were told in the titles of archeologists and anthropologists.

The Yoruba will now say there is an archeological and anthropological links. This is all there is to their history.

No physical documented eyewitness accounts to the event they are linking.

ghostwon:
Don't you find it amazing that any sort of talk about ife heads must involve Benin bronze and a claim that Benin oral tradition states Benin learnt it's art from ife ? You don't realize that the guys in that so called documentary are fooling you ?
First of all, the so called oral tradition which is being quoted is unknown to us the Edo whom are supposed to be the ones who told about that same oral tradition. Basically the charlatans on your so called documentary are putting words into our mouths.

Basically, to give ife art any sort of importance, which would be a necessity for anybody whom is involved in any sort of excavation in ife ( because you need funds, don't you ?), you must attach Benin to it. You must attach the magnificent bronzes of Benin to ife.

Out of a sudden, artefacts plundered from the palace of the Oba and which had not been seen in centuries by commoners are interpreted by some unnamed ghosts. Only the Oba of Benin and few nobles and palace guards and a few visitors actually had the privilege of seeing these artefacts.

Charlatanism doesn't have a nationality.
Why won't you focus on actual historical documents.
Documents produced by eye witnesses. And forget the charlatans ?

Why must these people always wrap Ife history around Metaphysical, mystical, archeological and anthropological interpretations.

You are required to consults the gods to understand Ife history.

They provide no physical eyewitness evidence to support their Ife story.

If Benin says they owned and ruled Lagos as far back as 1600s.

They will provide you with an independent eyewitness accounts of European who visited Lagos in 1603 and documented what he saw, that the place was filled with no one else but Benin armies with their commanders, four of whom come together every morning to form a court and their reports are despatched to their ruler in Benin daily by two messagers.

This is simple and direct verifiable history. No mysticism, archeology and anthropology involve.

ghostwon:
I got curious about Benin history when I first settled in Paris, you see I had studied in several French universities spread all over France. When I got to Paris, I often studied in the "Bibliothèque nationale de France" (BnF), one day I was passing by one of the ancient globes which were being exposed in the BnF, and I saw (for the first time in my life) what Africa looked like before colonisation. I looked at West Africa and I saw a huge country named Benin whose capital is Benin city.

When I first visited the British museum in early 1990s , I was amazed to see that a whole section was dedicated to Benin artworks, of all the artworks in the black African section, Benin artworks were the most impressive and most significant.

Few years back, the city of Liverpool was adored with different photos of Benin artworks to celebrate the museum collections.

During the centenary of the fall of Benin in 1997, countless newspapers articles and editorials most by black African descendants in the UK were written to celebrate and remember great Benin. The tube stations and underground were covered in photos of different Benin artworks.

Recently when the auction house sothebys put up a small idia mask pendant which was from a private collection for sale for £2.5 million, countless petition and protests were made by Africans, and it resulted in the sale being withdrawn.

Those back home have no idea about the sort of respect old Benin have abroad.

davidnazee:
Right now she is desperately looking for another nonsense myths and assumptions she want to use to support her foolish argument lol

Hopefully she has finally realised her foolery and run away, unless she wants to continue to entertain us and other readers of this thread with more fairytales.

These Yoruba people are terrible when it comes to history.

The Benin will tell you real history and provide you easy to understand evidences.

For example, when Benin tell the history of Benin/Idah or Igala war,

1. They will tell you the year because there was a Portuguese that was resident in Benin at that time, that documented the war and sent a letter about the war back to his king in Portugal in 1515.

2. Benin can point to the Emue-mue statue at Ikpoba hill which was erected to commemorate the war.

3. They point to the Queen Idia mask now referred to as FESTAC mask which was created to commemorate queen Idia, the mother of Oba Esigie who fought in the war and being remembered as the first Benin woman to command and lead an army into war.

4. Benin can point to the same queen Idia mask being worn by every Atta of Igala around their necks, including the current Attah.

In telling this piece of history, the Benin doesn't have to employ the service of foreign professors of archeologists, anthropologists, geologists, geographers and hermaphrodites to come to Benin to start digging the ground for soil samples to test and experiment on, just to confirm that the war really happened.

This is the reason Benin history is different from Yoruba myths.

davidnazee:
Nothing you say makes any sense even if it was a dot

The problems with these Yoruba people is that they don't read through their sources and thoroughly understand and comprehend what their sources are saying before they present them as evidences to support their arguments, living rooms for exposure of their lies and serious bashing by the Benin.

1. The four hundred years arguments of Benin not having any relationship with Ife came from Ryder's documents presented by TAO11 herself.

2. The evidences of Ogane being east of Benin, in a distance of 900 miles with travelling time of 20 moons or 20 months or 1 year 8 months was from a document presented by Metaphysical.

3. Again TAO11 has referenced another document that have shown her Ufi to be in southern Africa.

Not only are their arguments lame and indefensible but they continue to add to the ammunitions of the Benin that are already well armed by presenting these references that work against their arguments.

I don't know if I should just laugh or feel sorry for their stupidity.

You must be clever enough to know when you lost the argument and throw in the towel, every account you are submitting are being used against you and you are continuing and not see any problem with that.

Those that were formerly applauding you have all run away in shame.

TAO11 is carrying on as if there is a medal to be won.

She has tried her best, no one will say she didn't put up a good fight, even her Male Yoruba counterparts have all since run away.

Hope she and other of her likes would have learnt a vital lesson that real history is different from myths.

If you try to steal other people's history, you should be ready to face the consequences.

TAO11:
Provide only one --- just one --- shred of evidence (academic, expert submission, scholarly statement, or archaeological result, etc.) to back up any single one of the many clams in your comment above, I challenge you.

Wake up me up only when you're able to help yourself, otherwise your comments (I mean your lies) amount to nothing but your usual audio rants.

I battered your image here on Nairaland so much that everyone is now beyond convinced that you are a Janus-faced fatuous deluded liar.

You are only struggling to salvage whatever pieces is left of your shattered image.

Well, people's mind have been made up on you --- including pusyiter who, on the basis of how badly I exposed you yesterday, forsook you and fled.

For some reasons, you think all these insults will undo and repair the colossal damages you have caused and continue to cause the Ife/Yoruba historical myth by continuing to debate the Benin people who are armed to the teeth with real eye witness historical accounts, written, recorded and documented not opinions of archeologists and anthropologists that can easily be disputed and refuted.

If you want to continue to cause more damages to the Yorubas/Ife brand by allowing the Benin to be exposing your lies for all to see, it's your call, you can continue, but be reminded, you are not doing the Yoruba history any good with your lies that are being exposed daily on this thread.

Pusyiter:
I think we should be more scholastical in our approach rather than playing to the gallery of smear criticism
Your references are valid but am still trying to see the gap in literature viz-a-viz your findings?
Lets make more references pls.....

Ibn Battuta in the early and mid1300s documented on "Yufi" just like the Portuguese in the late 1400s documented on "Benin"

Except the Ufi in reference was in Zimbabwe, southern Africa. The description of the place on the referenced document presented as evidence shows the place to be southern Africa. River Nile doesn't runs through Nigeria.

If there was another Ufi in Nigeria, it was a myth not the one referenced.

This only lends further credence to Ife/Ogane/Ufi as being myth.

davidnazee:
You are still a learner.. I don't know what your understanding of a sane person is.
The document you posted is just an assumption (with no credible evidence) of a Yufi in Nupe/Ife, it doesn't say Ibn Battuta had any discussion with anybody about Yufi in Nupe/Ife or trade with them.
Ibn Battuta in his own testimonies describes interactions with sailors and traders about Yufi and trade in gold he had with Yufi located in Southeastern Africa as you can see in the documents below.

Your document's argument about Yufi being Ife is based on myths about Ife's artwork, which doesn't add up when comparing it to Ibn Battuta's own testimonies about Yufi to determine which Yufi he was talking about. wether is 2 Yufi is not my argurment but which one Ibn Battuta was referring to and that is the Yufi in Southeastern Africa.
So stop using Ibn Battuta to support your argument about Ife being Yufi because Ibn Battuta didn't even know if Ife existed. The only place Ibn Battuta mentioned in Nigeria area was central nigeria and Ife is not located around there.

If the Yorubas don't want their recently created Ife historical myth to die a natural death and be destroyed by the Benin who are armed with real, authentic and credible history and logic, the Yorubas must avoid debating history with the Benins.

The Benin have repeatedly shown with logic and evidences that Yoruba have no history but myths.

Almost all Yoruba debaters have thrown in the towel and run away but TAO11 has stubbornly remained, allowing the Benin to be doing incalculable damages to the Ife/Yoruba project.

There was nothing concrete about Ife on ground by way of a thriving village let alone town not to talk of a city before 1930.

The Yoruba have tried to link Ife to Benin through one mythical Ogane, who lived in a town east of Benin, at a distance of 900 miles that took 20 moons or 20 months or 1 year 8 months to travel.

This was dismissed as nonsense because Ife is not east but west of Benin and Ife is only 171 miles from Benin and not 900 miles.

Haven't failed to convince anyone with Ife being Ogane, the Yoruba came up with another place called Ufi and produced a document that have now placed the said Ufi in Zimbabwe and not even in Nigeria. If there was any Ufi in Nigeria it was nothing but myths.

The Yoruba have not been able to answered the simple question of whether there:

1. Were the names, Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, Ooni and Ife in existence between 1475 to 1897.

2. If these names were in existence, why were they not recorded in the history of Benin that was
documented by the European at this period.

3. How would the Yoruba explain the fact that, every people that had any form of relationship with Benin during this period of Benin history was documented, referenced and mentioned in the thousands of pages of Benin history except these names, of Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, Ooni and Ife.

4. It's inconceivable and implausible that Ife would have been in existence and a thriving town and not have been mentioned in the first four hundred years of Benin history.

5. Every thriving towns, rulers and people that was worth their names, were mentioned in the first four hundred years of Benin history...towns, people and rulers in western, eastern, south south and middle belt were all recorded and documented in Benin history but Ife, Ooni and Oduduwa are missing from the history books.

Everything being said about Ife now are stories wrapped around archeological discoveries, this is not history.

There are no written documentation of an Ooni saying something between 1475 to 1897.

There are no documented eye witness accounts of people living in Ife between 1475 to 1897.

Yorubas are only relying on archeological and anthropological interpretations of remains of some dug up dirt and materials to explain the lack of history of Ife.

If they don't stop debating the Benin, their Ife myth is going to be destroyed beyond repair. They can carry on deceiving other tribes and themselves but not the Benin.

Benin is the home of the oldest, most comprehensive and authentic eye witness written accounts and documentation of history in Nigeria.

The Benin people are very much at home with real history and they can easily spot and recognise any fabricated myth being presented as history and destroy it, so it's for the good of the Yoruba to avoid the Benin at all cost when it comes to debating history.

1. Ife have been discredited as not being Ogane with evidence and logic.

2. Ife have been discredited as not being Yufi in Zimbabwe with evidence.

3. Ife as been shown as not having any physical relationship with Benin between 1475 and 1897

4. Ife have been shown not to have been mentioned as a thriving village or town between 1475 and 1897.

5. It has been shown that the names Ife, Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ooni didn't enter Benin history and lexicon until 1930.

Ife is nothing but a recently created myth that archeologists and anthropologists are trying to find evidence to solve and support.

TAO11 is undoing and destroying the works of countless Yoruba professors of history and their foreign archeologist and anthropologists by continuing to debate the Benin.

These debates is only showing Ife history to be a myth.

Pusyiter:
Ok
Good research question
Also, was there any trace to Ife relations with the international communities (Whitemen)

No, Ife history was created in 1930/40

The white man has been writing about Benin history for almost 600 years, since about 1475.