₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
Exactly, because that's what Oduduwa literally is. And that's how names are.

For example "Olawale" means "Ola wa si Ile". There is no way you can stretch "Olawale" to mean for example "Izowale"


"Izoduwa", on the other hand, (which is a joke to begin with according to historians) does not break down to "Oduduwa" no matter how hard you try.

Before the little distractions. I am still waiting for the answers to the below questions. If the guy wants to know more about Benin/Ife relationship there are enough material on the internet for him to read.

Back to where we stop......

In stead of all these grammars and copying and paste of irrelevant documents.

All you should do is to cite just one single instance where the name Oduduwa, Ife and Ooni were specifically mentioned in Benin history between 1480 to 1897.

There are thousands of pages of Benin history mentioning various tribes spanning the first four hundred years and no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Ooni. It's like writing everything about yourself and forget to mention the name of your father, town you or your father comes from, it's even worse if you have do this writing repeatedly for four hundred years without revealing these vital information about yourself.

Don't tell me how historians dug up some stones in Ife and link it to Benin.

My question is why was Ife, Oduduwa and Ooni not mentioned in specific terms or by names in Benin history between 1480 to 1897 the way other places were mentioned, even other Yoruba tribes and towns were mentioned.

TAO11:
Exactly! The bolded is what historians have deemed to be a deliberately unauthentic, apocryphal, pseudo-historical joke.

It that the answer to the question you were asked

TAO11:
Notice that he didn't give thw meaning of the name "Oduduwa".

That's simply because the name "Oduduwa" does not exist in Edo language.

He instead gave a different word "Izoduwa". Don't be deceived. He his very cunning. You ask for "Oduduwa". Lol.

Moreover, The "Izoduwa" character has been debunked by historians as a deliberately unauthentic, pseudohistorical, and apocryphal character.

I can provide you evidence for this debunking by historians.

The meaning you gave was for the name Odu-to-du-wa not Oduduwa. Go back to your post.

Without the to, your Oduduwa will literally mean powercontestglory. Does this make sense to anyone

Like every answer you Yoruba give to simple questions, you go all over the place to gather pieces of information to formulate your answers.

You just can't give a simple answer to a simple question.

Pusyiter:
Well, names can be pronounced differently based on the accent of the people thus, conscripted as such
For instance a yoruba man pronounces 'Champion' as 'sampion' this does not remove the fact that he refers to one thing, but pronounced as another.
Another instance is the spelling of the tribe 'Ibo' by the Whiteman instead of 'Igbo'
Same can be said of Oduduwa to be Izoduwa, Idoduwa etc.....
Lets go to the next research question which is: Oduduwa's origin and Children?

The most famous of all Oduduwa children was Oranmiyan, who according to Benin royal history was sent for, to return back to Benin after the last Ogiso died without a son.

The story was, the Benin actually wanted the banished prince, now Oduduwa to return himself, but he was too old and couldn't make the long journey back to Benin, so he sent his son, Oranmiyan that was born and brought up in Ife.

gregyboy:
The truth is our oba is not helping out particularly the new one, he feels so very comfortable with edo been like this, i know he is working on Gelegele before the completion of the project edo people would have lost hope
After the completion of the sea port it will be another political struggle to get approval to get clarification of goods at the seapirt

I want him to call all the wealthy men in benin to see how to invest in edo state and see how to raise the standard of life of the benin people


As big as edo no industries all we see are storey buildings built by edos oversee....


You our people are lazy, they want fast money if we can make job available to them, i think the lazinesd will wear off

There is very little the Oba can do these day, most of the decisions rest with the politicians and governor, all the oba can do now is to advice.

Benin was much better when the Oba and his chiefs were governing but that era is long gone.

Pusyiter:
No doubt man comes from Heaven and assembled on earth by God
If that is the understanding to depict the origin of Oduduwa, it only shows their level of understanding.
However, we all know there are more fables attached to the personality of Oduduwa hence, let us know the origin of his name in the closest relationship to the languages of the yorubas and benins. Then, we can debate with facts and logic

To answer your question more specifically, the Benin royal family and institutions account is that after he was banished from Benin and fled with his supporters to found Ife, he decided to call himself izoduwa/idoduwa both meaning, I have chosen the path of peace and progress. This the Yorubas corrupted to Oduduwa.

Notice I have given the meaning of the name in Benin and the Benin royal institution account.

But some of us are questioning why we were only told about this Oduduwa by both the Benin and Ife royal household/institutions in the 1930-40.

Why were we not told this before considering the fact that they have been recording Benin history in writing since about 1475. Why are they just telling us about Oduduwa in 1930/40.

TAO11:
I have debunked your "400 years gap" delusion twice but you probably won't notice since you don't read what you reply to.

Or you strategically shyed away from my foregoing comment to you, just to give off the false impression that you're unaware that you've been debunked??

Again in case you missed it. See again:

"Historically, ethnographic sources and EUROPEAN WRITINGS of the early and mid-sixteenth century [i.e. early/mid 1500s] (based on relations from Benin of the late fifteenth century) and of the early seventeenth century, also testify to the Second Benin Dynasty's links with Ife."

Reference:
Dmitri M. Bondarenko; "Advent of the Second (Oba) Dynasty: Another Assessment of a Benin History Key Point", History in Africa, Vol. 30, Cambridge University Press, (2003), p.71.


Note: It makes you look very m0r0nic when you take your time to type up comments in reply to something you didn't read.

Think about that!

In stead of all these grammars and copying and paste of irrelevant documents.

All you should do is to cite just one single instance where the name Oduduwa, Ife and Ooni were specifically mentioned in Benin history between 1480 to 1897.

There are thousands of pages of Benin history mentioning various tribes spanning the first four hundred years and no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Ooni. It's like writing everything about yourself and forget to mention the name of your father, town you or your father comes from, it's even worse if you have do this writing repeatedly for four hundred years without revealing these vital information about yourself.

Don't tell me how historians dug up some stones in Ife and link it to Benin.

My question is why was Ife, Oduduwa and Ooni not mentioned in specific terms in Benin history between 1480 to 1897 the way other places were mentioned, even other Yoruba tribes and towns were mentioned.

Pusyiter:
Sorry, if I may ask
what is the meaning of Oduduwa in Ife yoruba?
...and same applies, to the Benins, what is the meaning of Oduduwa?
This to me, would give us a clue of his origin..Thereafter, I can make my cent

Why limits your question to just the meaning in Benin and Yoruba alone, are you not also aware that the Yorubas said he came from Mecca, Saudi Arabia and that he also climbed down from the sky with chains.

Do you also want to know the meaning of Oduduwa in Saudi Arabia Arabic language and the meaning in heavenly language since he was also said to have climbed down directly from heaven or are you suggesting that he didn't have a name before he got to Ife.

So if his name was Oduduwa before he appeared in Ife, the meaning of his name is going to be numerous.

TAO11:
And that's exactly the point.

But do you read??


I am simply glad that sane people read my posts from all over the globe.

They see the disturbing truth. Sweet!

No doubt you are a great ambassador of your Yoruba culture but common, do you think you can fill the four hundred years gap that Ife was not mentioned, documented, written about in Benin history.

Owo, Ekiti, Eko, Oyo, Ida/Igala, Urhobos, Ijaw, Anioma etc were all mentioned in specific terms and by the names they were known. We don't need a Maradona or ronaldinho to tell us who these people are in Benin history.

We don't need scholars upon scholars to link these people and places to Benin.

If Ife was really that relevant and important to Benin between 1475 to 1897, it wouldn't need professors and emeritus of history both local and foreign to be conducting historical experiments to link Benin to Ife.

Like I said before, it was over ambitious of those that created the Benin/Ife myth. If they wanted to link Benin to Yoruba they should have chosen more plausible places in Yoruba land that shared numerous relationships with Benin.

Imagine if they have said Oduduwa was from Owo, Akure, Ekiti or Idare, this four hundred years gap dilemma would have been closed, but in their over ambition, they decided to choose Ife that has nothing to do with Benin for centuries until 1930-40.

They are now struggling to fill in the gaps of four hundred years with article upon article both written by local and international writers. Benin artworks are being studied to see which to ascribed to Ife.

Meanwhile Benin relationship with other places such as Lagos is very straightforward.

gregyboy:
Nice.... Our edo Brothers, benin don empty youth nor they town again ooh, you can hardly speak to on or two edo person who is a youth that have not left shores of nigeria....
But the issue here is they return empty with no investment or ideas to help edo


Edo is currently experiencing rapid depopulation of its youth and no advantage to it, more of the disadvantage of loosing our culture and our economic power


All am saying is that its nice to be out there, but when you are out there you guys should always think of how to help edo state,

Edo used to be the number one transport service center in nigeria nowadays they are left with ruins..... We need to return the knowledge over there back here to make edo great again

Am still schooling in uniben, and i hope to join you guys someday.....


If there is a charity bank were every edo in diaspora drop a dollar every months or weeks to help the less privileged edo people back home it will be nice.......

You are right. But don't forget that having so many of us outside the country have also contributed to some of our youths becoming lazy due to the monthly remittances.

I agree that those that have better Ideas on how to improve the social economy situation of our people should contribute their bits.

The population of Edo in diaspora is more than enough to turn things around for the better if the political class and rulers knows how to tap this valuable human resources.

I have few ideas of how to tap this human resources I am developing, I intend to send them to the governor when completed, hopefully he will see the benefits in them.

gregyboy:
You spoke well.....

I guess more threads should be created to tackle this myth

Are you in benin?

Would also want everyone one of us to visit the palace to get first hand information on benin history and thier ways of life in the past it will help in the location of ogene and were we binis migrated frim

No, I am not based in Nigeria.

[quote author=ghostwon post=88540083][/quote]Thanks for the update/correction.

TAO11:
Well ... except that long, long before the creation of the country called Nigeria and the regions called Western region, etc.; Oba Eweka II was already documented by H.L. Ward-Price to be praying in the 1920s to the Oòni of Ife. Thank God for that historical fact.


Moreover you may also want tl check out the page below from one of D. M. Bondarenko's works. I think it should make an interesting read.

Cheers!

If you most connect the Benin dynasty to the Ife dynasty, it's important that you make the connection properly by stating what both history of Benin and Ife/Yoruba says about the relationship.

When you select which of the story to tell, you are not giving your audience the full story and that is disingenuous.

After telling the audience about Oba Eweka 11, you should have also let the audience know that Oba Erediawa told Ooni that he is Ooni's father.

Please always present a balance narratives and allow the readers to have all the information to make an informed conclusion.

Next time you make reference to Benin/Ife connection, tell it properly and not one sided.

The Benin and Yoruba people don't agree to be one people.

The Benin royalty and Yoruba royalty don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa who they claim to be their father.

Anyway you look at it there are disagreements on all sides. Don't make it look like it's only the people that disagree and the royal fathers agree, that will be lie because the royal fathers themselves also don't agree.

This disagreements on all sides begs the question of whether there were any relationship in the first place.

It would've been best for everyone to stay on their lanes but the Yorubas are not letting go because that would continue to put their history at a disadvantage because Benin history is four hundred years ahead. The only way to close this gap is to link both royal household/institutions together.

For those that care:

1. Both Benin and Ife royal dynasty believe they are related

2. Benin royal dynasty believe they started the Ife royal dynasty through their banished prince who fled to Ife with his supporters and became Oduduwa/Ooni.

3. Ife/Yoruba believe that Oduduwa was from, mecca, from the sky, an indigine of Ife. Even the Yorubas themselves don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa.

From the above, the Benin and Ife Royal household/institutions don't agree on the identity of Oduduwa.

In addition to the aforementioned, are people, mostly Benin that don't believe any of the accounts of Oduduwa.

It's up to the readers to decide what they believe but what I have presented above is the true picture of things as they currently stand.

For those of us who question Oduduwa, we based our question on the simple fact that for the first four hundred years of Benin history, nothing was recorded or said about Benin having any relationship with Ife. Such connections and relationships is too important to be missing from Benin history. How could they have missed out the Ife relationship from Benin history for four hundred years if really it existed.

In the same period numerous accounts of Benin/Lagos, Benin/Akure, Benin/Ekiti, Benin/Oyo, were written but Benin/Ife is missing.

Benin/Ife only came into Benin history in the 1800s.

Every tribes Benin had relationship with in the first four hundred years were all recorded in Benin history. The Igalas/Idah, Ijaws, Anioma, Itsekiri, Urhobos and many more in south/middle belt were all recorded in Benin history but Ife is missing.

In the periods between 1475 to 1897 there were frequent European visitors to Benin, the Portuguese, Dutch, French and Italian all wrote about Benin for the first four hundred years, nothing was written or said about Ife in their written records.

In the same period of 1475 to 1897, there were countless Europeans who were resident in Benin, sometimes for years and there is no account of any of them visiting Ife.

All other cities Benin had relationship with were visited, cities like Lagos 1603, etc. But the European didn't find it curious enough to visit Ife that some people are now shoving down our throats by fire by forces as the source of Benin greatness.

The European visited, resided in Benin repeatedly for four hundred years and didn't for once go to Ife that was supposed to have the closest relationship with Benin. If anyone doesn't smell a rat, they need to examine their noses.

Before I forget, it was claimed that about 1480, a Benin informant did mention one Ogavna to a Portuguese visitor. This Ogavna lived in a place that was 20 moons or 20 month or 1 year and 8 months journey from Benin city, this place was to the east of Benin and about 900 miles in distance.

gregyboy:
Definitely ogene is not ife by all documents and even the artwork

I guess oghene really existed as proven by ryder if it was a myth artworks wont depicit it,probably when the Portuguese ask the benins about oghene, oghene had lost is glories and major towns under it had become autonomous there was no need of visiting the areas by the Portuguese....

I guess that sculpture holding a cross with an helmet was depicting the benin oba holding the scared items and not necessarily a messager as we thought

If only we can gather information from the palace concerning this issue we can gather intel on how past benin society works and relate them to the other data

Have you read the works of

John K. Thornton
History in Africa


On the other hand can you relate this sculpture

No I haven't. I believe the Benin artworks need to be studied closely.

ghostwon:
A part of it is their wish to establish the ooni of ife as a southern equivalent to the sultan of Sokoto.
Therefor they must crush truth and establish their alternate "history"/"truth" as fact.

If that is the plan, it will run into problems because unlike the Ooni, the Sultan of Sokoto have historical conquest to back up his position in the North and I have not heard about any of the monarchs in the North openly disrespecting and challenging his supremacy. The same cannot be said about the Ooni in the west let alone the entire south.

AreaFada2:
Lol. Don't be surprised if she's married to, dating or like Edo men.

I guess she enjoys it. I quite the fact that a lady has interest in culture and history, not just eye-lashes, wigs, bags and shoes.

We need more ladies to take part like this.

Instead of people to accept that each tribe had their strengths, that one way or another influences flowed both ways, how exactly things were, we cannot be 100% certain today, they want to change history.

Many of our neighbours had no empire. They were small homogeneous chiefdoms/kingdoms. Aside Oyo that had an Empire from about 1608 to 1800 or 192 years.

Benin on the other hand had an Empire from 1440 to 1897 or 457 years.

Yes, Benin's success was due to many people we brought into the fold. Bringing their talents along. From the East , South and West. Ours was a multi-ethnic success. Something we proudly acknowledge.

Our cousins do not have that openness despite claiming to be "accommodators". Tolerating people is different from allowing them be full part of your culture despite their own sub-culture, different dialect, etc.

I am even beginning to like her for her tenacity, zeal and energy. I personally like to look at things logically.

We should be able to separate myths, legends and fictions from real history. Every civilisation have their myths and legends and should be seen as such.

I don't know why the Yorubas like to desperately link Ife to Benin in what I am beginning to see as a disingenuous way.

Benin and Yoruba, especially eastern Yoruba already have enough link for Yoruba to share from the past glories and successes of old Benin empire.

Infact almost all tribes in southern Nigeria can legitimately claim to being part of the success of Benin empire and share it as one common heritage rather than this unhealthy rivalry here on Nairaland.

People of Anioma/Igbo, Yoruba, Urhobos, Ijaw, etc have all served in the highest levels of old Benin administration, some of these people were only second to some Obas.

I don't see why historical accounts should be falsified in this way when there are already well established links.

AreaFada2:
Kikikikikiki!

If this was in court the judge would be outraged. Mutilation of evidence. This kind of Mike Tyson upper-cut nor be here o.

Change East to West because the European must have drank ogogoro and got it wrong.

The Benin man & oyinbo who had the chat were wrong. Those who came later, maybe after 100 years now think they know what was said better.
Talking from both sides of the mouth is normal to some people.

Oga sir, what do you expect me to say, sometimes I think this TAO11 lady is just trying to pull my legs or she enjoys running circles around me.

I hope others are enjoying themselves from these exchanges.

gregyboy:
The 20moon journey could it be going and coming

Irrespective of whether it's going and coming, the evidences doesn't support Ife as being the location. I believe it's going only.

TAO12:
And regarding the "east" dilema, I have already discussed that where I wrote the following:

Regarding dilema (2) which says that the Kingdom of the Ogane is to the "east" of Benin kingdom.

This is about the most puzzling for historians. But it turns out in the end to be the most obvious and the simplest of all.

Ile-Ife is famous and well known in ancient times (and in present times as well) by the epithet --- "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá".

This is the simple and straightforward solution to the "east" dilema in the Portuguese account.

This is especially considering the fact that every other detail in the account regarding the Ogane checks out perfectly only with the Ooni of Ife.

Also, every attempt to find this Ogane in the actual geographical east have proven futile and absurd.

Now what then does this epithet of Ife actually translate to, and how does it resolve the "east" dilema??

In its baisic literal sense, this epithet of Ife namely: "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá" simply describes Ife as: "The place from where daylight shines forth."

Put differently, it translates as: The place from where the sun rises.

Every Yoruba kingdom whether to the eastern side or to the western side of Ife knows Ife by this epithet.

And to be sure that this was not merely made up in recent times --- by historians --- in the course of resolving the "east" dilema, the following piece of historcal informatiom sheds some light:

The first Christian missionary to visit Ife in the 1850s, David Hinderer alludes to this epithet of Ife in his account. He wrote:

"Ife is famous as being the seat of idolatry; all the multiple idols of this part of the country are said to emanate from this town; from there the sun and moon rises where they are buried in the ground, and all people of this country and even white men spring from thks town."

Reference:
David Hinderer, "Diaries," Ibadan, Christian Missionary Society (CMS), quoted in I. A. Akinjogbin, ed., The Cradle of a Race: Ile-Ife from the Beginning to 1980, PortHarcourt, Sunray Publications, 1992, xi.

Although this epithet of Ife is not necessarily scientifically and geographically accurate from all geographical sides of Ife, the local people have a strong and firm belief in it nevertheless.

In fact, I. A. Akinjogbin and others have opined that this unanimous strong belief in an epithet of Ife which is obviously scientifically inaccurate, must have --- in the earliest times --- originally had a functional meaning which is simply to the effect that Ife is the place from where culture and civilization spread to other lands.

The fact that this literal epithet of Ife (as the place from where the sun rises) is also known in ancient Benin kingdom, is quite evident in the earlier cited documentation by Ward-Price.

Oba Eweka II notes that he must wait for the first rays of the sun to shine forth before he proceeds to begin his sacred devotion which he obviously connects back to the "Oghene of Ife."

His consistent daily connection of the first rays of the sun with Ife/Yorubaland (despite the geography being opposite) is obviously not unintentional.

It clearly relates to the ancient epithet of Ife as the place from where sunlight shines forth. See the attachment again for a reminder.

In light of the foregoing, it becomes clear where the "east" in d'Aveiros account sprang from in relation to the kingdom of the Oghene or Ogane.

João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".

To be fair to him, there is almost no way he could have escaped the misunderstanding.


The attachment also shows how the brass cross were connected back to Ife by Oba Eweka II.

I have discussed all these in details earlier on this same thread.

Cheers!

João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".


The quote above is what someone like myself in search of the truth have problems with.

This conversation was said to have happened around 1480 between a Benin informant and a European. It was documented.

Centuries later, people tried to link Ife to the said Ogane and realised that there are problems, and in their efforts to address this problems, those that were not there or witnesses to the conversation are now speculating that the European must have got it wrong and reported the opposite of what he was told.

No matter how we try to shift the goalposts to fit Ife into Ogane, the fact remains that the recorded historical evidence does not support this hypothesis.

I personally don't care where the Ogane was located or if it ever existed, I am only interested in the truth.

You don't just wake up and start changing the goalposts by altering documented historical accounts to fit a narrative. The changes you guys are making to the original documents amounts to mutilation of the evidence.

1. You start by saying the 20 moon journey is mystical journey, not physical because it doesn't support your argument.

2. You said the 250 league or 900 miles reported is the opinion of the European and should be discarded because it doesn't support your argument.

3. You said the eastern location reported by the European should be discarded, disregarded and changed to west because it doesn't support your argument.

Why not just disregard the entire report as a work of fiction. Ogane may not have existed.

TerraCotta:
Hi TAO—I’ve really enjoyed reading many of your earlier posts on this issue (won’t pass judgement on some of the interactions but suffice to say it’s not my style—to each her own). This issue of the distance and direction of Ife from Benin has been so thoroughly discussed in some of the articles referenced in this discussion that I often wonder if people have actually read what they’re citing. Suffice to say that your point on the “twenty moons journey” as a consequence of “the slow pace in which they travel,” and the comparative example of the journey between Uromi and Benin City provided by Ryder, shows that the journey was not intended to break any land speed records.

Even more pertinently, Ryder made the point that “the twenty moons’ journey” was a mystical, rather than merely physical, trip:
“Moreover, the visit of a new Oba’s emissary to the Ogane was a ritual one...”

That last sentence is key, since it seems to me that we are forgetting that the logic of our African forebears living seven hundred years ago would be diametrically opposite to the measurement of traveling distances through Google. In fact, the twenty moons is the key phrase in understanding this journey, not the postulated 250 leagues, which is clearly D’Aveiros’s estimate. The initial informant told him that the journey took “twenty moons” likely because there was a ritual logic to that time (likely to reflect the lunar calendar certainly in use in Ife at that time), not any gauge of how quickly the journey could be accomplished by foot, horse, canoe or whatever means.

Significantly, Ryder points out the same need to examine the question of direction through the emic (“internal indigenous”) lens rather than what the compass would tell us “east” and “west” mean in late-20th or early 21st-century times:

“However, it must be borne in mind that the category of direction, like those of distance, [b]have to be referred to the Benin context from which these items of information were gathered. East and West are nowadays indicated at Benin with reference to the morning and evening sun, and in the Benin view of the world the sun goes down into the sea.” The sun going down into the sea suggests to us that what the European compass might describe as the south (the coastal area of Nigeria bordering the Atlantic) is traditionally “West” in Benin (where the sun sets). By the same logic, the place where the sun rises (“ibi ti oju ti mo wa”, as is traditionally said in Ife, as a matter of coincidence or fact) would be described on a compass point as “north” and traditionally as “East”. This is not my conjecture—it is in the same Alan Ryder article so lovingly cited here, but apparently so infrequently read. This is actually the point I was referencing in my previous post to Silver Sniper on Robin Law’s wonderful essay on “Eastern Wangara”, which makes this same exact point from the perspective of diplomats and traders in Asanteland in the 19th century. Their orientation of east, west, north and south is completely different than a Europeans, much like China has for thousands of years considered itself “the Middle Kingdom” because from their perspective, China is the center of the world.

During the coronation of most traditional figureheads etc. in our part of the world, they are often required to tour their town, sleep in sacred groves and temples etc for prescribed periods of time. They are not marathons and would likely involve different ritual reasoning for the time required than just quickly the trip can be accomplished.

Of course, Ryder believes that the Ogane / Oghene is certainly a preserved tradition of a very real place or personage but not necessarily found in the modern-day location of Ile-Ife. As said repeatedly on here in years past, it’s quite possible that he is right in locating the original (or perhaps twin) site of an Ife / Ogane polity in the area of the Niger-Benue confluence (see above for the long and elaborate evidence).

What Ryder may not have known (and that we do now more clearly, with the additional benefit of decades of archaeological, anthropological and historical research) is that this exact area is also inextricably tied by economic, cultural, ritual, artistic etc evidence to the Ife cultural field, as I have referenced in my earlier posts and which other scholars much more experienced and dedicated than I (amongst them Ade Obayemi, Suzanne Blier, Robin Horton, Robin Law, S.F. Nadel etc etc ad nauseam) have demonstrated to most sane and unbiased readers.

I have carefully gone through your submission and highlighted 5 areas.

1. You suggested that the 20 moon is a mystical journey, this will only lead credence to the arguments by some that Ogane is a mythical kingdom that wasn't real.

2. You have played down Ryder's 250 league distance because you would have realised by now from Silversniper conversion that 250 league is about 900 miles which is more than 5 times the distance from Benin city to Ife which is about 171 miles.

3. You speculated that the 20 moons must have certainly be calculated using Ife lunar calendar, there is no evidence that Benin was using Ife lunar calendar at this time, besides, the informant that told the European this story was a Benin informant, not Ife informant.

4. You indicated that Ryder himself dismissed Ife as being the location of the Ogane and rather pointed to the direction of the Niger Benue confluence.

5. You seems to be trying to link the Niger Benue confluence to Ife. To be honest I don't see how this will be relevant to the fact that non of the actual evidences support Ife to be Ogane.

TAO12:
The Portuguese account says that the Ogane's is "some 20 moons" walking distance away from Benin kingdom because of "slow pace" travel.

Is Ife actually some 20 moons' walking distance away from Benin kingdom at some olden days "slow pace" ??

Here, there is a natural temptation to attempt determining the walking duration between Benin and Ife using Google maps.

The consequent error from this temptation would result from the fact that walking durations on Google maps are based on assumptions that become less realistic the longer distances get.

For example, Google maps will not factor-in the "slow-pace" which the Portuguese account clearly acknowledges.

It will not consider how many stops were made, and how many days were spent camping or resting for each stop.

It simply assumes a quite rapid constant pace of continous, no pause, non-stop movement, come rain-come shine, come day-come night, without sleep, without rest, through out the entire lenght of the trip.

This is obviously very impracticable. In fact, Google maps always warn, even for very short distances saying: "Use caution --- walking directions may not always reflect real-world conditions."

The blatant error inherent in an attempt to use Google maps to answer the earlier raised question thus becomes very obvious.

To then answer the earlier raised question quite correctly, it is important that one first determines what may have been the pace of long walking trip traditionally in this part of the world.

A piece of data which I find very useful to find this traditional pace is seen in C. Okojie cited in Ryder (1965), p.27.

He noted that it traditionally took from 4months to 6months to complete a walking trip from Uromi (Ishan) to Benin-City --- a distance of some 50miles.

Based on the foregoing highly invaluable piece of data given by Okojie, alongside the well-known distance betwen Benin and Ife (i.e. about 171miles); we can therefore estimate the duration it must have traditionally taken (in months) to journey from Benin to Ife.

Calculation:
--------------------
(a) IF Ishan and Benin which are
about 50miles apart took about 5months long traditionally.

(b) THEN Benin and Ife which are about 171miles apart would have taken about (171÷50)×5months long traditionally.

When evaluated, this walking duration from Benin to Ife, based on the available traditional data came to more than 17 months.

In fact, strictly speaking, 17 months is the equivalence of 19 moons. I am happy to demonstrate this Math as well.


This (i.e. more than 19 moons) therefore comes to be reasonably equal to the "some 20 moons" of the Portuguese document, in contrast to an irrational and unrealistic result of 2 days from Google maps.

Cheers!

I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

SilverSniper4:
With regard to traveling from Lagos to Benin City, those envoys that went to Benin City to deliver the news about what was done each day could have gone by boat/canoe, which may have sped things up considerably for much of the journey. Additionally, it is not clear from the original description by Ulsheimer that the two envoys that were dispatched each day were actually reaching Benin City within a day and then returning to Lagos the next day. It could have taken longer than that. They probably used several pairs of alternating envoys, so that it wasn't always the same two people traveling back and forth between Benin City and Lagos the whole year (which would have been tiring/exhausting and possibly also a liability/vulnerability). There probably would have been several pairs of envoys available at Lagos, with only two leaving at a given time to go to Benin City on one day, and with the expectation that they should return to Lagos in a certain number of days. Meanwhile, there would still be other pairs of envoys available to send to Benin City the next day after those two had left, and so on.

I agree there would have been a more organised and efficient system in place to avoid the Lagos messages being delay too much before reaching Benin.

But what I can't reconcile is equating a 20 moon journey to 250 league or about 900 miles.

It has also been suggested that the Ogane was a mythical kingdom that didn't exist.

ghostwon:
ghostwon:


This ogane story, have you seen any proof to back it ?
I mean, don't just take the existence and the claim "Benin spoke about oghene" as true without proof.
I have debunked this oghene story many times. If you show me the document which you are referring to I will hand you it's proper debunking.
Oghane or Orgvene is a mythical Kingdom. Associated with the quest of prester John, an other mythical figure. It is not a real place, and as you have rightly pointed out, the location attributed to it is not that of ife. But it still remains an imaginary place.

Debunking Ogana as not being or couldn't have been Ife with available evidence and logic is to win half of the battle, at least those that would want to use it as evidence to support their fabrications will be careful next time.

You raised an important point of it being a mythical place. It's better it remains a mythical place than someone trying to ascribed another place to it to hoodwink the less informed.

I bet that those who hurriedly presented it to back up their fabrications of Ife having some preeminence over Benin in the past didn't thought of the problems the content of the report will cause.

How will they now be able to reconcile the various discrepancies in the report.

You must realise that we are also creating our own history by these submissions and interventions, it may not seem so now, but don't be surprised that these write ups may some day became references themselves. The more important reasons, you shouldn't allow any lie or fabrication to go unchallenged.

ghostwon:
This ogane story, have you seen any proof to back it ?

No I haven't, but simply just waving it off without applying logic based on available evidences to your objection will allow the other side to continue to repeat the fabrication.

Too many lies being told without objections may begin to sound as truth to those telling the lies and those listening or reading it.

SilverSniper4:
Yes, I understand your point, however it might be more important to focus on the 250 leagues part of the description. When traveling people have to make stops to rest, eat, etc. And in an era before the prevalence of easily usable roads (there were some roads - by which I don't mean modern roads of course - between towns and cities within kingdoms and there were roads between some kingdoms for trade of course, but probably not everywhere along a long journey would have had roads back then), and with no restaurants or convenience stores or hotels along the way, and with no specific requirement that the journey has to be done quickly (i.e. one is not necessarily in a rush to get there) a journey of several hundred miles could take a long time. I agree with your overall logic though, about the 20 months. Even taking into account the factors that I have listed, it does seem like it should not take 20 months to go from Benin City by foot to the very borders of Nigeria in any direction. But we can't know exactly at what pace people liked to travel back then.

250 leagues could be about 700 to 900 standard English miles depending on the standard used for "league", and that might still be within the borders of Nigeria if one takes Benin City as the starting point. The "Portuguese maritime league" unit of measurement was about 3.2 nautical miles, which is about 3.68 standard English miles.

Multiplying 250 by 3.68 gives 920 miles. But "920 miles" is probably not going to be exactly what was meant. It could be a bit less, and of course the standard for "league" might not have been strictly adhered to back then (although on the other hand the Portuguese explorers, being experienced sailors would most likely have used standard and well established measurements for distance). From Benin City to Maiduguri is about 820 miles, so it is conceivable to still end up within the borders of modern day Nigeria or just at the borders, if one travels "about 250 leagues" from Benin City, if "250 leagues" is not taken as literally meaning exactly 250 leagues.

Thanks for the conversion from league to miles and estimating the journey from Benin city to Maiduguri to be 850 miles.

I believe the report of the European who visited Lagos a little over a century later in 1603 said daily messages were being sent to Benin from the Benin military garrison in Lagos.

Considering that the journey from Benin city to Lagos is 201 miles and a daily frequency of messages were being sent to Benin city makes the 20 moons journey seems out of this world unless the 250 league is not a true reflection of the 20 moon journey.

Even the very best estimates of the journey and the other evidences of it's location relative to Benin and the reference to cross gifts still completely rules Ife out as being the location of the Ogane (Oghene).

We have to really start examining our history using all available evidences and start producing reports to correct any misrepresentations.

SilverSniper4:
Well no, that was not really what I meant to convey by citing that article. The "Ogane" ruler the Benin informants mentioned to the Portuguese most likely was situated in what is now Nigeria, or at least somewhere else in west Africa,. I am saying in that post that the view of historians (especially those who are specialists on medieval history) is that the "Organa" on 14th, 15th, and 16th century European maps is actually a reference to the North African city of Ouargla, in the Sahara desert, very far from Nigeria and nearer to the coasts of North Africa. In other words, the "Saracen" ruler designated "Rey de Organa" on the European maps is not a reference to the "Ogane/Hooguanee" ruler that the Benin informants later told the Portuguese about.

I was just noting that the evidence points to the "Ogane/Hooguanee/Oghene" ruler being someone else entirely different from the ruler described and depicted on the maps. Ouargla is a Berber or Arabic name, that was most likely corrupted into Organa on medieval European maps.

The Oghene/Ogane/Hooguanee ruler was most likely someone else.

Thanks for the clarification, you probably missed the modified part of my earlier submission.

I am examining the actual report of the Portuguese which I reproduced.

It says that the location was east of Benin and a journey of 20 moons, 20 months or 1 year and 8 months.

My contention from all these evidences is that there is hardly a journey within Nigeria that will take 1 year and 8 months and certainly not from Benin to Ife.

No evidence of Ife producing bronze crosses as of 1480 has been produced.

Ife is not east of Benin.

With the aforementioned, it becomes very difficult to understand how anyone will reach the conclusion that the Ogane Benin spoke about in 1480 is Ife.

SilverSniper4:
TerraCotta, I've included what I attempted to post here earlier as attachments.

If I understood the article correctly, the Ogane (Oghene) Benin told the Portuguese about around 1480 is not even situation in modern day Nigeria.

And according to the Portuguese, the journey from Benin to this place was about 20 moons which roughly translates to 20 months or 1 year and 8 months.

This can only point to the reach of Benin in ancient times.

These sort of evidences completely rubbishes the notion that the Ogane Benin spoke about in 1480 was Ife.

Firstly, the Ogane Benin told Portuguese was said to be east/north of Benin and Ife is not.

Secondly, the journey from Benin to Ife wouldn't have lasted 1 year and 8 months in ancient times.

How long did it take a guy who walked from Lagos to Abuja to celebrate Buhari's first term victory against Jonathan.

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that [b]to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.

ghostwon:
The thing is Benin has a real history while the Yoruba don't.
The Yoruba compensate their lack of history by peddling myths all the time and claiming Benin for authenticity.
The weird thing is that the Edo, instead of relying on their history and logics, you join the history-less Yoruba into fairytale discussion ! While you don't need to be discussing fairytale, you actually have a real history ! Don't bring yourself down to their level.
And sorry to say this but you guys need to rethink your knowledge acquisition process. Many times you very easily fall into the traps of the yar.iba and basically take some of their unsubstantiated claims as true. Intelligence, logics are needed. Blind and stupid talk is the tool of the yar.iba, not the Edo. We have actual history, consult it ! Use your brains.

Bruv, I get your gist, but you most also accomodate the fact that even some Benin people may not have read as widely as others due to the fact that history is not currently being taught in our educational institutions.

Few Benin are very well acquainted with the history of Benin and the majority may find it difficult to be able to put things in their proper historical perspectives.

I doubt if anyone can really claim to be an encyclopedia of the documented history of Benin spanning almost 600 years.

There are various aspects that different people will be acquainted with while there are probably still documents from various centuries that still haven't been examined or not in public domain.

Threads such as this, albeit being stated with the so purpose of Benin bashing has actually became a vehicle to showcase little known aspects of Benin history with majority of the silent readers getting educated.

Whilst some people may be put off by the general attitudes of some of the debaters, every now and then, they intervene with superior documented evidences to prevent the debate from derailing completely and help put some of the arguments in their true historcal contexts, thereby exposing those with malicious intent.

Simply writing off the Yorubas as having nothing credible to say without advancing superior evidence could be counter productive and it becomes who's shut is the loudest and the Yorubas may be saying nonsense but they have a collective voices that are very loud.

So, interventions in threads like this from those with superior knowledge and evidence of the topic being discussed are very welcome, it enhances the knowledge of all, both active participants and silent readers.

AreaFada2:
Where was Orhogbua when news of his father's demise go to him? Which river in Africa was he at?
Lagos is far from Benin by those days standards. Why was it not planted by nearby Ijebu or Egba that planted their monarchy and organised Lagos?
Why will Ghana now be the one they reach first?

By your logic some would say Benin were not seafaring people and could not have reached Lagos. But there is clear evidence Benin did.

Yoruba want us to believe Oduduwa came from Egypt or Mesopotamia or Israel yet Benin cannot reach Ghana? Really?

Benin had Ozigue (majorly Ijaw people) at it's disposal.

As for Benin reaching out to Ga and others, I won't reveal more details despite being goaded to. Because it seems many want to double-cross.

I heard of Ooni visit to claim Ga before. But I didn't believe it. I guess the clip upload here is probably it. I still have not watch it. I write in between a busy schedule.

Let everyone do their own reaching out. Let the truth win in the end.

I do not need a map. I have travelled that area: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Togo and Benin is like backyard to me.

I did not study geography. But by class 4 we knew the capitals of all American States, capital of all African states, and much of regional geography. Complete with maps.

Be it ship building in Japan, logging in New Foundland, sheep farming in New Zealand, etc.

So profound was our secondary geography that a geography graduate of nowadays will have to be careful challenging the level of then.

Let me stop not to come across as showing off.

The truth is, even the Benin of this generation will have to expand their own knowledge of ancient Benin.

Who would have thought it possible that:

1. The Oba of Benin once had a standing army of up to 20,000 soldiers and additional 100,000 on standby should the need arises for their deployment, if the Europeans who visited Benin themselves didn't write it down.

2. That by 1603, a European that visited Lagos saw a Benin military garrison with strong fences that houses no one else but Benin soldiers and their commanders, who despatched messages to the Oba of Benin daily. This was over a century before Benin established the current Lagos royal dynasty.

3. That the Benin wall/moat was greater than any human structure ever made at that time in Africa, Europe, Asia, etc. If the Europeans didn't do their independent measurements and investigations who would have known.

4. That Benin was among the very few cities in the world to have the semblance of street lights.

5. I never even knew that Benin was a major supplier of guns especially to the Yorubas, so much so, that the Yoruba kiriji war took it's name from the sound of the Benin guns.

6. Hundreds of years ago Benin was already manufacturing iron poles of 20 feet high to house oil lamps to light strategic locations in the city.

So even the Benins, have to start expanding what they thought was not previously possible achievements by the Benin empire.

It's a shame that we have to start interrogating European archives for recorded eyewitness accounts of our past historical achievements.

If we try to see old Benin with the mediocre standard that the current Nigeria state is, we are going to miss the point. So we must be guided.

AreaFada2:
I made a simple submission. That we should let people define themselves.

I read a few first lines and I did not watch the video clip. I heard Ooni visited Ghana and gave some titles at one time? Is that the video clip? Is that true? I am way to busy to follow every thing everyone comes up with. 9 years of doing so is a long time.

But let people define themselves. That was my message to Meles.

What Benin history is doing to some people on this thread is unbelievable. First, I took the debates/arguments as a friendly banter, but I am now really worried and praying that some people don't end up bursting a vein or an artery.

The rates at which they jump into any historical accounts of Benin to discredit them is shocking, including those that have quoted from history books that contain the accounts they are discrediting.

I noticed someone else has also joined the fray and stoking ethnic fire from the east on the account of what Dr Azikiwe wrote in his autobiography.

You would have thought that these people should have problems with Zik on the book he authored himself but instead they are having issues with Benin that never contributed to the book nor co-authored it.

The reeling out of Benin past glories from European historical books and archives seems to be causing so much heartaches in some people. They don't seem to be taking it well.

Every historical account they try to discredit is replaced with another revelation of great achievement.

From Benin/Ife relationship, the debate moved on to:

1. The Benin military machine
2. Benin/Oyo relationship
3. Benin/eastern Yoruba relationship
4. Benin occupation of Lagos as far back as 1603 5. Benin architecture
6. Street lights
7. The Benin Wall with very few to equal the achievement in the world and certainly incomparable to no man made structure in Africa
8. The Benin artworks that adores museums across the world
9. The very advanced and sophisticated complex administrative system of government.
10. Bight of Benin from which republic of Benin took it's name.

And much more.

As all these historical accounts and achievements are being revealed, all you see are comments and reactions filled with hate and jealousy from those that want to steal the history and facing resistance to those that have nothing to showcase from their past.

History is history, there are nothing these people can do about it. The fact remains that Benin remains the only place in Nigeria with perhaps the oldest and most comprehensive written historical eyewitness accounts.

Europeans have been writing and documenting Benin history for almost 600 years and there are thousands of Benin artworks across the globe showcasing the civilisation that these ignorant bigots are working tirelessly to diminished, downplay and undermined.

Benin have more than enough in European archives and museums for future generations to educate themselves on, so the nonsense here on nairaland hardly count, any efforts made here to distort Benin illustrious history will only amount to exercise in futility because Benin history is a global history

Benin written history is over four hundred years ahead of it's competitors.

People are free to open a thread to glorify and reminisce their past rather than starting threads to exercise their bigotry towards Benin.

SilverSniper:
First of all, great post! My situation is precisely the opposite - I'm not near many of the books I have at all, nor do I have access to some of the things I would like to cite (as I alluded to above with regard to Meek's book) but I'll try to make good with the few I have with me if we have another very lengthy discussion as we've had previously. Also, I'll be responding in parts just because I have some other things to get done even in this quarantine/shelter-in-place situation and I can't spare as much time to make super lengthy posts just right now.

Yes I am aware of this idea of the Niger-Benue confluence as some kind of origin or dispersal point for the larger linguistic group that several of the southern and Middle Belt groups in Nigeria belong to and I have read that article by Obayemi in the past. Ryder's focus in the article is more related to the issue of this thread so I didn't want to get into that broader issue of what the origin point of the so called "Kwa" group is right here (as that seems to be another topic in and of itself).



I did read professor Blier's book on ancient art in Ife years ago so yes, I am aware of this mention of the map from her book. The issue of the depiction of the "king of Organa" and similarly named places/rulers on 14th, 15th and 16th century European maps was actually brought up by Thornton, in his 1988 article on the Ife-Benin relationship, so I was aware of it even earlier (and Blier is well aware of Thornton's article, which she cites at one point in that book). He actually uses that map and others to make his own argument about who he thinks the ruler really is and of course his identification is quite different. (I still disagree with his ultimate conclusion, so my position about the validity of his identification has not changed - I still think that identification is mistaken, just as I did in that other thread where we had a lengthy discussion although some of my reasons have changed slightly.)

So the possible connection between the Ogane/Hooguanee of the Portuguese reports, and the Organa king/kingdom on the late medieval European maps has been more widely known at least since Thornton's article was published, although other scholars (Richmond Palmer may have been one of them, if I recall correctly) had suggested this connection even earlier, prior to Thornton's article. I am also familiar with the Catalan Atlas and what it depicts (I even discussed that map on a thread on that other forum - that one where you made an account but didn't post . By the way, were you too annoyed by some of the ignorance, bias, etc. that exists on there and considered it a waste of time to even bother engaging with it, or was it just too boring and nothing on there caught your interest? I'm still somewhat surprised that you didn't make a single post.)

I would however point out that Cresques' knowledge here must be described as shaky or inadequate if he really did mean to refer to what we might presume that he meant to refer to with that king of Organa figure and kingdom on the map. The Catalan Atlas actually describes the king of Organa in this manner: "a Saracen who waged constant war against the Saracens of the coast and with the other Arabs". The coast he is referring to here seems to be the North African coast. In fact, the way the map is (and where the "Organa" king is positioned) there couldn't be any other coast that he is referring to.

Blier does state in her book that the "Rey de Organa" is "repositioned toward the central Sahara" on the Catalan Atlas (instead of being further south where we would presume he should be if the figure is meant to depict a ruler closer to the part of west Africa we are discussing). It seems that in fact the positioning was not a "repositioning" and the real reason for the position was that Cresques did not really see the "Organa" kingdom as being what we are referring to in this discussion (so I am not sure that he had a real understanding of the polities of the region we are talking about if the Rey de Organa is meant to depict a west African ruler from somewhere in or near Nigeria), hence Cresques' map presenting the idea that the king of Organa was an Arab that fought other Arabs, and hence the ruler's depiction on the map as an Arab/Saracen.

Thornton did of course argue (on p. 356 of his 1988 article) that the positioning of Organa on the "best" maps from the Catalan school of cartographers should be interpreted as implying that the Rey de Organa was really south of the desert and closer to the Niger river (the "Nile" on that part of the map). But he also made an interesting comment, or admission, in note 20 (on pp. 360-361) at the end of the article. He mentioned in that note that the historian Tadeusz Lewicki, in his article "Le Royaume d'Organa des cartes européennes du XIV e au XVIe siècle" (1976) actually "summarizes the existing arguments and provides a strong argument for identifying Organa with the oasis state of Ouargla".

Ouargla is in the Sahara, and given the cultural background that Ouargla would have had at the time the map was made it would be quite understandable why the king of Organa would be depicted and described as a Saracen, if Cresques was indeed referring to Ouargla. Considering that the sounds "l" and "n" often end up being interchanged in words in various languages (this is a very common linguistic phenomenon; I don't recall the word for it), the name Ouargla is actually close to Organa even in sound and appearance.

There's also something else notable about Ouargla besides the fact that the cultural background of a medieval sultan of Ouargla would be a better fit for the depiction and description of the king of Organa given in the Catalan Atlas. It was apparently one of the oldest towns in the Sahara (or at least it is described as such in multiple sources) and it was also a major player in the trans-Saharan trade:

"By 911, the Shi'ite Fatimids ovethrew the kingdom of Tahert as well as established their control over Sijilmasa [southern Morocco] and Ouargla or Wargla. It was the Fatimids who founded the city of Mahdiya as their capital around 915. It was however in 947 under the ruler Fatimid al-Mansur that they established Mansuria, slightly southwest of Kairouan, as a new capital to replace Mahdiya. Associated with these changes, Ouargla emerged as the dominant northern terminus of the major gold-bearing trans-Saharan route that led from Gao. " - Stefan Goodwin, Africa's Legacies Of Urbanization: Unfolding Saga of a Continent, p. 88

This major role in international trade would probably make this city a noteworthy place for a map-maper and that is probably one reason why the the ruler (sultan) of Ouargla might be depicted on a later medieval map.

You also mentioned Cresques' background as part of a Jewish trading family. Interestingly, Ouargla did actually have a significant population of Jews in the Middle Ages:

"M'zab Jewry are apparently the descendants of Jews from Tahert, an ancient metropolis destroyed in 902 C.E., but also from Sedrata and Ouargla in the important region of Ifriqiyya – which in ancient and medieval times contained the territories of present-day Libya and Tunisia. Ouargla was a center of Karaite Jews. Until 1300 the Jewish community of the M'zab was reinforced demographically by Jews from the island of *Djerba (southern Tunisia) and Jebel Nafusa (the region of Tripolitania in modern Libya). Overwhelmingly residing in Ghardaia, the Jews were mainly employed as goldsmiths as well as being suppliers of ostrich feathers whose exports to Europe were monopolized by their coreligionists in parts of the Mediterranean."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/m-x0027-zab

I am familiar with the background of the Portuguese search for "Prester John" (incidentally "Prester John" is actually indicated in the Catalan Atlas, on panel IV), however I think that this depiction of the "Rey de Organa" on the Catalan Atlas is not likely to have been a motivating factor in their search for Prester John in west Africa. Considering that Cresques depicts him as war waging "Saracen" and taking into account the attitudes that probably existed in 15th century Christian Iberia with respect to "Moors", "Saracens", etc. that seems unlikely. Thornton suggests, more plausibly, on p. 356 of his 1988 article, that the maps they used which led them to later identify "Organa" with Prester John were certain later maps, rather than the Catalan Atlas.

I'll try to respond to rest of your post as I get time.


Edit: Upon re-reading your last paragraph above, I realized you were actually alluding to the fact that the Portuguese were later to explore the west coast of Africa in search of the source of the gold that was flowing in the trans-Saharan trade (in addition to seeking Prester John in Africa as a Christian ally against the Muslims; they were carrying out the two objectives simultaneously). So I think I did misinterpret that last paragraph of yours in my initial response and actually I agree that the Catalan Atlas, with its depiction and description of Mansa Musa and his abundant gold and wealth, would have been an impetus for their desire to explore west Africa in the 15th century. Since that is what you seem to be alluding to (their search for the source of the gold in west Africa that was going north in the trans-Saharan trade) then there's no disagreement that the map would have been a major inspiration for them.

All these will burst TAO11 brain. TAO11 no distractions, your elders are now talking, you have had your time, you can now go out and play with the kids and allow serious minded people to learn. I know you will come out now and turn everything upside down with your bigotry.

geosegun:
Well, I appreciate your summary. The Yorubas generally see Benin as ther younger brother by blood. Hence our grandparents will always say, 'okan naa ni wa' meaning we are the same. Hence, some of the reasons the generality of Yorubas will never fig8or engage the Benins in a duel.
Eko in Lagos state is an example. How can the Father fights the son? Hence the continuous growth of Benin Kingdom and was never violently controlled in some of the western axis.
We know they, especially the Benin rulers house, are our long but not lost brothers. The Oyo empire, despite all her powers never engaged Benin as we see it as a taboo.

But you know what, pride has not allow those of recent generations to accept this. They know it's the truth but pride and inferiority complex will not allow them to accept realities and move on. One of the reasons they destroyed the only legacy the had left in 1898. Stubbornness and arrogance are worst than some diseases.

FACT is Benin Kingdom is an extension of Yoruba civilisation and of course they are our brothers. This has been proven over and over again.

@MelesZenawi; thank you for an independent summary.

I rest my case.

When your late Ooni made this same mistake you just made out of excitement, late Oba Erediawa quickly reminded him of his place.

Yoruba as it's currently constituted is less than 200 years old and Benin that is over 1000 years is Yoruba's junior.

Please provide us the evidence when the word Yoruba was first recorded.

Please don't give me some myths of some mythical tribe.

Ooni will not have the gut to say that your crap before the Oba of Lagos let alone Oba of Benin.