₦airaland Forum

MelesZenawi:
I think at this point, you guys should call it a quit but few points has been established..

1. The history of Bini is not complete without the mention of Yorubas

2. The history of Yorubas aren't complete without the mention of of Binis.

3. Both without further argument has both ancestry more reason the argument draws longer and also points to one thing always

4. Both without bias are just brothers , same people just with different names.

5. Both are just one people , one blood and that's why it is hard to argue the matter.

Finally....Yoruba and binis are just blood brothers with different names due to age long movement.


Let the argument end as these facts has been established.

cc


gregyboy
TAO11
Samuk
geosegun
Hbrid99
davidnazee
AreaFada2
SilverSniper

If you are looking at it from the age long movement point of view, then Benin are brothers to various tribes that cut across southern Nigeria.

SilverSniper:
The historian Elizabeth Isichei is one scholar that did suggest (in A history of Nigeria), when discussing the Beni Nupe confederacy, that Ryder drifted away from his 1965 suggestion in his 1969 book:

"If there was a real dynastic link with Nupe this seems doubtful. It seems more probable that statements about a common heritage rest on the accidental verbal similarity between Benin and Beni. It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans" - Elizabeth Isichei, A history of Nigeria, Volume 2, p. 137

However after re-reading his 1969 book I found that he does not actually do so at all. On page 7 of the 1969 book, Ryder cites his 1965 article, where his position was that the reference to east should perhaps be interpreted as the correct, and literal direction (although allowing for other possibilities about its meaning) that the Benin informants intended to indicate to the Portuguese about where the "Oghene" lived, (Oghene is a word meaning "great lord" in Edo (Bini), but which is used to refer to God in some other Edoid languages in modern times; of course God in Edo (Bini) is Osa, Osanobua, Osanobua Noghodua (God almighty), etc.) without changing his position.

In his 1969 book when discussing the origins of the dynasty of the Obas of Benin, Ryder cites his 1965 article on p. 7 and he does not indicate that his position had changed:

"1. cf. A.F.C. Ryder, 'A reconsideration of the Ife-Benin relationship'. Journal of African History, vol. VI, i (1965). This article examines the evidence for and against the tradition which identifies the Oghene with the Yoruba Oni of Ife, and suggests that many conflicts could be resolved by ascribing a more northerly origin to the dynasty. It is further argued that the origin of the name Benin might be sought in this direction."

I believe Isichei simply misread or did not accurately recall what Ryder's position was in his 1969 book. John Thornton's 1988 article about the Ife-Benin issue, where he cites Ryder's work repeatedly, does not make any note of Ryder changing his position at any point. I think Isichei was simply mistaken about this point.

I found out later on that the idea that the "Oghene" was indeed literally to the east of Benin, as stated twice in two different primary sources - first by Duarte Pacheco Pereira (in Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis) and later by João de Barros (in Décadas da Ásia, First Decade, Book III), was not exclusive to Ryder or Thornton. Decades before either Ryder or Thornton put forward their theories, Charles K. Meek had suggested (in his 1931 book A Sudanese Kingdom: An Ethnographical Study of the Jukun-speaking Peoples of Nigeria) that the "Ogane"/"Hooguanee" mentioned by Pereira and then by de Barros was possibly the ruler of the ancient Kwararafa state, based on the fact that the distance given in the original account (two hundred and fifty leagues east of Benin in de Barros' account) and the direction (east) line up with the location of the ancient Kwararafa state relative to Benin.

Of further interest is that the ancient Kwararafa state was a brass/bronze casting center (exquisite ancient brass or bronze artifacts have been found from there, Leo Frobenius's assistant made some drawings of some of these during one of Frobenius's expeditions to Nigeria in the early 20th century). The Kwararafa "empire" or "confederacy" was supposedly also ruled by a divine "priest king" in the past, according to what both P.A. Talbot and Meek found during their research in the early 20th century, and it had numerous surrounding groups under its authority or influence. Of course there is also supposed to be some sort of significant historical connection between Kwararafa and Igala, or at least Jukun and Igala, according to the thinking of most researchers on precolonial Nigerian history. Also, in his 1965 article, on p. 35, Ryder also proposes a possible Kwararafa connection to Benin as Meek did decades earlier.

Meek also made one surprising comment in his book on the Jukun. He mentions (on p. 50) a certain name and states that "among the Jukun at the present time it is the title of the official who supervises the burial rites of the kings of Wukari". What was surprising - or rather, peculiar - to me is that Meek claims that that name was also found at Benin. I would include the full quote but I do not have the book on me right now.

An interesting article along this line of thought, with regard to the ancient Kwararafa state, before its defeat and destruction by the Bornu empire, is R. Gray - "Christian Traces and a Franciscan Mission in the Central Sudan, 1700–1711" Journal of African History 7 (1967): 383-393. That article might be relevant, if some of the details stated there about crosses are more than just coincidental.

Edit: Upon re-reading Ryder's 1965 article I made a correction above to my original post about his stance on the direction indicated in the sources.

Interesting read.

TAO11:
Oranmiyan of course, why are you afraid??

See attachment below. Make sure you digest it, because I will ask you questions about it.

So Oranmiyan brought a word that no ruler in Yoruba land at that time was using. A word that wasn't indigenous to Ife at that time, because you haven't shown that it was in Ife lexicon almost 1000 years ago.

All you have shown us is that it was used in Oyo 300 years ago.

We all know that Oyo and Ife weren't the same 1000 years ago

How could Oranmiyan had brought it to Benin If the word belongs to Oyo dialect and Oyo is a younger kingdom to Benin in terms of age.

If Oranmiyan brought it to Benin, why was it not used for over 700 years as title of Yoruba kings.

If you argue it was used, which Yoruba king used the title Oba until the 1900s

We know Yoruba have dozens of different dialects which are mutually unintelligible and it's implausible that ba or Oba would have meant the same thing in all these different dialects as you have claimed.

Oba is a word Oyo borrowed from Benin and it went into the wider Yoruba Lexicon due to the adoption of Oyo dialect as the standard Yoruba language less than 200 years.

This also account for the lack of the use of the word for centuries in any of the various Yoruba tribes.

The used of Oba amongst Yoruba Obas begin to gain ground in modern day Yoruba land as the Oyo dialect gained grounds and became the dominant language of the Yorubas.

These captured tribes into the wider Yoruba tribes only started using Oba as title for their kings after 1900s.

AreaFada2:
Lol, Oga Samuk, they say Dr Zik nor sabi book o. They say theyknow better. Current young tribalists know better than a man born in 1904, educated in USA and one of most prominent Africans of the 20th century. :

One thing is sure. When the young men in a street, village or town fight over a girl, it's not over the girl with yam leg, k-leg, 5 naira kpoff kpoff breasts or ikebe like a mirror hanging on the wall. Oh no! It's over the beautiful damsel in town. Benin is the beautiful culture everyone likes to claim or attach to. Never mind childish attempts to sneer when rebuffed.

Benin people are very comfortable with both East and West. From centuries of co-existence, much of it peacefully, Benin understand both sides better than most. Benin has no burning animosity towards East or West. But one thing Benin cannot take is either East or West trying to use current population politics as a yardstick to measure history. History is what it is. It cannot be twisted. History doesn't bring cash like crude oil, but it's a people's heritage none the less.

Benin is not dragging anything with them but just restating what Zik said and I don't see any reason why this should upset any of them.

TAO11:
It's not what I thought the word "Oba" meant in Edo language, it's about the fact that the word "Oba" does not exist at all in the Edo lexicon from an etymological analysis.

The closest sounding words are the ones I have brought up in the etymological analysis (which both you and gregyboy) have also brought up and agreed to their respective meanings.

Etymological analysis shows that those Edo words are a different words from the word "Oba" both in meaning and in strict pronunciation (or spelling).

Edos use the word "Oba" to be mean "King" such that when you say "Oba Gha to Kpe E" what you mean is "King Ghato kpe E" and not "Shine or Red Gha To Kpe E. Lol

The Edo root "Baa", and the Edo nouns Noba and N'Oba have absolutely nothing to do etymologically with "Oba". All the similarity between them and this begins and ends in the quite similar sounds.

Again, my reference to the use of the word "Oba" in an 1897 work was not to demonstrate anything, but to disgrace you for lying that the word "Oba" begins to be used by the Yorubas in the 1900s.

So, that's the beginning and end of the use of that reference. No where did I say that was the Yoruba's earliest use of the word. Stop committing strawman fallacy.

My actual argument is here:

The evidence that the word "Oba" (for "King" is an indigenous Yoruba word lies in the fact that its relevant etymology is found in the Yoruba lexicon.

In contrast, the evidence that the word "Oba" is alien to (but loaned into) the Edo lexicon lies in the absolute absense of same word (and its meaning) from the Edo lexicon.

Q. E. D.


And this exchange has continued up to this point for only one of only two possible reasons, namely:

(1) You have no clue what etymological analysis is and how it works.

(2) You're pretending to be clueless about it while you see the issue.

There is no 3rd alternative.

I understand how you feel about all these. It's quite difficult to let go of what you've been indoctrinated over a long period to beleive is fact sometimes even in the face of incontrovertible contrary evidence.

Don't even pretend to understand Edo language more than the native speakers.

Oba means it's red or it's shining.
Noba means the one that is shining.

Edo language is more complex than you think.

There in no such word as baa. That sounds like sheep's language to me.

You can't just say baa on it's own, it will have no meaning and it will make no sense.

The correct word is Oba. When you say Noba, you are referring to something or someone that is red or shining or luminous.

The word Oba is deeply rooted in Edo language.

I told you it was coined to distinguished the king of kings from a mere king.

But the Yorubas later adopted it and thought it meant the one that rules or a king.

In it's reference to the Oba of Benin, it means the one or star/sun that shines to light the path/direction for Edo.

gregyboy:
There is no documentation that they used the word oba as a collective noun before the advent of the white.......

Instead of them to shut up since they cant prove it, they still sticking thier mouth out in defense

If the benin-ife can be proven it truly existed then there will be a debate for the ownership of oba title

I cant imagine benin cutting off relationship agsinst ife people who happened to help them restore thier monarch


Samuk what do you think about the origin of the benin people

I will like to explore and align myself with the suggestion by Ryder that most people that now occupied southern Nigeria would have once lived in the Niger Benue confluence, that is if they had not always been in their respective domains from the beginning of time.

TAO11:
All Yorubas is what I said, And I busted your lie of less than 100 years with one example of Yoruba --- Oyo.

So tell me another lie about how many years ago the Yorubas started using "Oba". Lol.

Why would Oyo borrow its own language from a a kingdom that speaks another indigenous language?? Lol.

You seem to be unwilling to face what has just hit you, which is that:

The etymological derivation of the word "Oba" for "King", "Ruler", etc. (and the one-word "Oba" itself) is not found in the Edo language; but found in the Yoruba language.

This is the issue right here, and its bold now, so I'm sure you can see it.

Do I have to explain the implication of this??

Your etymological derivation is from your interpretation of what you thought the Benin word Oba meant.

I already told you the literal meaning of the word Oba in Benin.

You said all Yoruba used it without providing evidence.

The only evidence you produce was some kind of oat swearing in the name of the Oba that happened during the end of the Oyo kingdom not more than 300 years ago.

This is the earliest you can show the word Oba being used in Oyo dialect for oat swearing.

But it's a known fact that Benin have been using the word for almost 1000 years, almost 700 years before it appears in Oyo.

So the evidence before us shows that a younger Oyo must have borrowed it from a much older Benin.

TAO11:
Moreover, I told you before that if you dont know anything. It's simple just shut up.

The problem I see here is that you've veen lied to so much. You've read too much of "edoworld", "edoblog," "edo-nation" websites.

If I ask you for evidence now to back up your lie that the Yorubas' use is less than 100 years ago. You will start scratching head.

I showed you hlw the etymology of "Oba" is found in Yoruba labguage but not found in Edo language.

Yet you're still here talking about 100 years. I'm beginning to think you have no clue what etymology means.

It means that even if the word with (obviously with its relevant meaning) is found in your language 2000 years ago, and its etymological derivation is absent as I have shown, then this is proof that it is what linguists call loanword.

And I have shown that its etymology is found --- in a simple, direct, no gymnastic manner --- in the Yoruba language. Proving it to be part and parcel of the lexicon. Thus your less than 100 years assumption (without any evidence as usual) dies a natural death.


To cap it up, the attachment is page from a book comleted in the year 1897.

It discusses the Great Oyo Empire and shows how the people at some point during the reign of Aole (or Awole) stopped swearing in the name of the deities but now in the name in the name of the much feared king himself, saying:

"Ida Oba ni yio jemi:" --- meaning: "May the Kings sword destroy me".

Thjs words were written down in thjs page as you see it below more than 100 years ago, thus destroying your less than 100 years imagination.

But that's actually by the way, the etymological analysis says it all.

We are now getting somewhere.

You said the Oyo dialet used to use the word Oba for their kings.

The only problem with this, if true is that Oyo is younger than Benin. So Oyo would have borrowed the word Oba from a much older Benin.

Can you provide evidence as to when Oyo stated using the word Oba to mean ruler or king because your article said it was a new form of oath swearing.

Your article also said this new oat swearing in the name of the Oba was during the decline of the Oyo kingdom.

I suggests to you that the much feared oba sword the Oyo sworn by was the sword of Oba of Benin otherwise why didn't they swear by the sword of their king Alaafin.

I hope our audiences are carefully following us on this.

TAO11:
The essential connotation of the word "Oba" is "King", "Ruler", etc.

This essential connotation is what js missing in Your language.

Not only that, the one-word "Oba" itself is not found.

Those are the deep etymological problems Im drawing you to know. Learn to always read what you will be responding to.

I am showing you that this is a later interpretation of the word by modern Yoruba.

You have not told me which of the sub dialects of Yoruba that used the word Oba for their kings or rulers 1000 years ago the way Benin did.

If the Benin had borrowed it from a particularly Yoruba dialect 1000 years ago, that dialect would have been using it as title for their rulers or kings at that time.

The fact that there is no such subgroup of Yoruba that used that title 1000 years ago means Benin couldn't have borrowed it, instead, it's the Yoruba that only started using it recently that borrowed it from Benin.

Yoruba language as it is today is less than 200 years old.

Infact Yoruba rulers and kings didn't start using the word for their kings until the 1900s

TAO11:
First of all I noticed that I made 3 request in relation to 3 lies by gregyboy.

However, I got replies for for only 1 of the 3 requests --- a reply which itself turns out to be a glaringly falsehood.

I therefore take it from this response that the deafening silence of your replies in adressing the other two requests is a blatant indication of the falsehood of the two claims they relate to.

Moving on ...

On the question of "Oba" and its etymology, I won't blame you samuk so much for not knowing that I have debunked all these gymnastics before.

I blame gregyboy particularly for giving off the false impression that he hasn't been kept shut on this before.

Now to the crux. If a word and its intended menaning belongs originally to a specific language, its etymological derivation would be found in same language.

To investigate the word "Oba" for "King" from the Edo language, it is only normal and obvious to begin with root-word/s in same language which sound close.

And the closest "Oba-sounding" Edo root-word is "Baa".

(1) "Baa" (or arguably "Ba" ) which means "to Shine" in Edo language.

(2) A derived form from (1) is "O - Baa" which means "it is Shining" in Edo language.

(3) Another derived form from (1) is "N'Oba" which means "that which Shines" in Edo language.

(4) Another derived form from (1) is "Noba" which means "Red"

What becomes very obvious from the foregoing are as follows:

(i) That there are an indigenous Edo rwords which are close in sounds (at least) to the one-word "Oba" used as the equivalence of the word "King"

(ii) That the actual Edo root-word itself from which other similar forms are derived is "Baa" (or "Ba" ).

(iii) That the actual one-word "Oba" used today as the equivalence of the word "King" is itself not seen in any direct link [from (1) to (4)] to the actual Edo root-word "Baa" (or "Ba" ).

More than the fact that the word "Oba" does not have any direct link to the closest Edo root word of similar sound is the fact that the neither the root word "Baa" nor any of its derived forms has the essential meaning that the one-word "Oba" itself connotes in its essence.

The one-word "Oba" in its essence connotes the following words or phrase "King", "Ruler", one who Rules", "Sovereign" or any other idea around these specifics.

We see no such root connotation even in the derived nouns "Noba" --- "Red" or N'Oba --- "that which Shines" (or arguably "one who Shines" if extended to humans).

In sum, it becomes clear from the foregoing etymological inquiry that although a root word which sounds similar to the word "Oba" exists in the Edo language; their similarity ends in the sound. Their essential meanings are not similar let alone identical by any stretch of the imagination.


What about a similar etymological inquiry for "Oba" in the Yoruba language? Let's see.

The closest Oba-sounding Yoruba root word is "Ba"

(1) "Ba" which means "to Preside" in Yoruba language.

(2) The derived form from (1) is "Oba" which means "one who Presides" in Yoruba language --- No "but"s or "if"s.


What becomes very obvious from the foregoing, therefore, is that:

(i) That there is an indigenous Yoruba root-word from which the one-word "Oba" directly derives.

(i) And that this derived word "Oba" is not merely a noun, it also has the same precise essential connotation to the word "King".

In sum, the etymology of the one-word "Oba" for "King" is not found in the Edo language, but is found in the Yoruba language.

The logical explanation for its presence (i.e. the one-word "Oba" for "King") in the Edo language could only be due to cultural borrowings.

And the argument of what about words like "Ooni", "Alaafin", "Olu", etc. These are some of the funniest counter-arguments which emanates simoly from the ignorance of what's going on.

It's as funny as arguing that someone can't be called "Woman" because we know them as "Ijeoma". Lol.

One is only a "proper noun" which differs from one to the other, while the other is a "common noun" which applies to all of them with certain well-known features.

"Oba" in the Yoruba language simply means "King", while the words "Ooni", Alaafin (from: "Olu-Afin" ), "Olu", etc. mean "one who Owns", "Sovereign of the Palace", and "Sovereign", respectively.


D. M. Bondanrenko sums up this distinction beautifuly. See below:

I don't really see where we disagree on the issue or meaning of Oba.

Oba means much more than a king in Benin, I never told you it means a king.

It may mean king in Yoruba but until the 1900s there was no such king in Yoruba land that goes by the title Oba but Benin have been using it for almost 1000 years.

Was there such thing as a common Yoruba language 1000 years ago, no there wasn't.

So which dialects of the various Yoruba tribes did the word originates from.

Everyone who now called themselves Yoruba were previously of different tribes speaking different dialects.

Ekiti dialects can't be understood by Ijebu, same with various other Yoruba tribes before the Oyo dialect was standardised as the common Yoruba language for all.

Even at that, there are still various dialects being spoken by people of eastern Yoruba that Lagos Yoruba will not understand.

How can Benin that have been using the word/title for almost a thousand years be the one that copied it from Yoruba that started using it for their kings in less than 100 years ago.

If it means the one that presides on modern day Yoruba, then the Yorubas must have copied it from the Benin/Edo language which is much older than modern Yoruba.

TAO11:
(1) Tell me the etymology of "Oba" as meaning "King" in Edo language!

(2) Also tell me the broken down meaning of "Orunmila" in Edo language!

(3) Quote from your "Cambridge" and reference in full.

Hahaha

I KNOW HE IS LYING. I HOPE HE CANT SEE THIS

Oba in Benin means something that shines or illuminates, like the shining star or sun.

Omo no ba ne Edo literally means.

The child that shines for Edo or the star/sun that shines for Edo.

That's why the Edo people refers to the Oba of Benin as God's representative on earth, a living god.

Oba in Benin language is not king, he is more than a king.

Kings in Edo language are called Ogie.

The Oba is the king of Kings.

Oba also means red.

The Yorubas recently begin to adopt Oba for their kings thinking it originally meant king.

The Oba of Benin has now been reduced to the status of a king within the Nigeria context, it wasn't always so.

The Benin people still sees the Oba of Benin as a living god.

There was a time, a commoner was forbidden to address the Oba directly, it was done through Palace chiefs.

In the past, Eleko or oba of Lagos, Olu of Warri, Enogie of Uromi and the hundreds of mushroom
Obas in Yoruba land, etc were all kings, but not in the same category as the Oba of Benin, that's why Benin coined the title to separate the Oba of Benin (a living god) from all these other kings.

This was the reason you didn't have another king dear called himself an Oba in the old Benin kingdom, maybe until recently.

The Yoruba think they originate it because they have made it popular recently.

The title of Oba has been in used for almost a thousand years in Benin, first recorded by the Portuguese in late 1400s.

Until recently Yorubas had Ooni, Alaafin, Ewi, Awujale, Osemawe, oluwo and hundreds more titles but not oba.

The Yorubas started attaching Oba to the titles of their kings after the fall of Benin empire.

The word Oba is indigenous to Benin.

You ask the questions, we educate the audience.

geosegun:
I likened their (davidnazee, greyboy, and samuk) case to those of people asking for their rights by taken your own rights away from you. They don't want to be checked, even when they are clearly wrong and they knew it. I just chose to ignore them. We never hated anyone, I've got Benin/edos, as friends, neighbours even channel partners in business. So I don't know what their issues are, regarding historical facts about Benin Kingship and civilization, if not inferiority complex?

Yoruba (Ife) named their city Ibinu now (Benin) - Facts; Yoruba (Ife) gave Benin her Obaship -Fact, Yoruba assisted Benin greatly with civilization and hence her booming economy (Beads and Artistic/Bronze Engraving) - Fact!!! If they don't like it, is not our business, they can go ask their ancestors why?

Sorry they can't change history and destiny. You should know they are naturally stubborn; That's why they lost woefully to the British during the punitive expedition in 1898 and their legacies destroyed shamelessly. We (Yoruba Ife) warned them via our (Knowledge of the Oracle -Ifa) but they never listened. Look at the relics of a once great Kingdom, an offshoot of Yoruba Ife. They almost destroyed some of our ancestors legacies due to their stubbornness, so I am not surprise if their descendants is showing that stubborn attributes as we are witnessing here on NL in recent times. Its in their DNA, Lol!

Please don't kill me with laughter.

TAO11:
Lol. Fighting for life.

Just as you've channelled your energy into what is NOT known from the Portuguese accounts, well before jumping off from there, pause for a moment, and then channel your energy into what is CERTAINLY known from the same Portuguese accounts.

And what is certainly known is that the Portuguese did inquire about "the most powerful monarch" of the region (which is the key reason why they left Europe in the first place --- to find their supposed Prester John).

And the reply they got from the Binis to their specific inquiry is that "the most powerful monarch" of the region is the one whim the Binis regard as Oghene --- rendered in d'Aveiros account as Ogane.

Not only that, the Binis gave further details of the relationship of Benin kingdom with this Ogane --- noting that this Ogane was a ruler whose permission must be sought for the installation of a Benin Oba, etc.

So, if we know anything at this point, then it is the fact that we know that in around the year 1480, d'Aveiro records account from Benin kingdom about this Ogane.

And the next logical question thus becomes: who is this Ogane?

I live that for scholars to answer as seen in the attachment below:



An Important Clarification:
The Portuguese didn't come into Benin with the objective of inquiring about its founding.

No, they had specific inquiries in mind even before leaving Europe:

They were searching for their Prester John who in their early folk-tale was a very very powerful monarch somewhere out there in the world.

In other words, their specific inquiry, wherever the went to, was around the specific question of the most powerful monarch of the region --- a question for which they got an answer from Benin.

Cheers!

The way you are clinging on to Benin and not letting go is amazing.

What else can I say, other than to say that your love with Benin is total.

I doubt if there is anything anyone will be able to do about it

gregyboy:
Desperation

Tell me about it.

Did you notice how she sneaked behind to request for a link to Ryder's book.

The way she was carrying on discrediting the book, I thought she has even read the entire book, not knowing that she haven't even seen it.

Why didn't she made the request public for everyone to have access to it.

She has now ruined Geosegun little Benin/Ife project and Metaphysical Oduduwa Mecca origin.

These guys have now all gone into hiding.

TAO11:
Well, the only conspiracy here are the above lies from you which I'm busting right now.

I will stop exposing your lies (such as the above) only when you stop peddling it.

I KNOW you must be frustrated now.


Anyways:
Sane readers with integrity, please see attachments below for historical reference to the c.1480 Portuguese account of the suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom:

Thanks samuk for helping to make the truths I've been repeating (with evidence) become a popular internet search result, accessible to a wide vareity of readers all over the world.

Cheers!

In 1480 Benin didn't remember the names, Ooni, Oranmiyan and Ife to tell the Portuguese when they said Oghene.

For four hundred years Benin didn't remember Ooni, Oranmiyan and Ife to tell any of the Europeans that visited and documented the history of Benin.

After 1824, Yoruba influenced historians and all those that created the Oduduwa myth decided to link one Benin Oghene, a very strange world in Yoruba to Ooni and uhe, another strange word in Yoruba language to Ife, how convenient.

All these can only make sense to the Yorubas and those that intend to benefit from the Oduduwa myth.

geosegun:
I was just reading your comments and laugh cant stop laughing... both you and an samuk are deceiving yourselves. You can not re-write history no matter how hard you try. Yoruba (Ife) gave you (Benin) your Kingship and and civilization. You cant help it, you cant change it and you cannot re-write history. All you need to do is accept the fact and move on. Even the Romans gave the great British their civilization, the current British royals have Germans bloodline, so what is wrong in the Oba of Benin having a Yoruba Bloodline? Why are you guys allowing inferiority complex to becloud our sense of judgement?

@TAO11; I'll advise you ignore henceforth. Since they are not ready to accept reality. You have given more than enough evidence. It up to them to face reality, accept it an move on or they continue to live in self deceit.

For the first four hundred years of Benin contact with Europeans, Benin never mentioned, Oranmiyan, Oduduwa or Ife.

Nothing in European archives of Benin history said anything about Benin/Ife relationship for the first four hundred years.

Benin was too organised, advanced and sophisticated at that time not to have remembered to mention Benin/Ife relationship to the Europeans or even put the relationship into their thousands of artworks if indeed such relationship existed then.

Nothing was recorded in Benin early oral history and artworks that captured/represents Benin/Ife relationship.

Benin/Ife history started around 1824.

It was nothing but huge conspiracy of the royal elites on both sides.

Benin lost the empire and was happy to write itself at the heart of the expanding Yoruba conglomerate by becoming the first son and heir to Oranmiyan/Ododuwa while the Yorubas were just too happy to share from the glorious past of Benin history.

It was a brilliant entanglement.

There is even Benin/Nri relationship writeup somewhere, another interesting read.

The Benin/Ife history is a big lie and fabrication, get over it and move on.

TAO11:
Well, I like your imagination. It's very sharp.

Now coming back to the real-world, there is no reference for any such thing as I have debunked it, and as SilverSniper have debunked it too.

Good luck imagining.

Every thing I wrote about the description of the lighting system in ancient Benin I presented are contained in the eyewitness account documents presented by Silversniper.

Others have eyes, they can read it for themselves.

gregyboy:
She has read all benin articles than even an average benin historian
And she reads them with tribal bigotry
If she was arguing for the benins against yorubas
It wont take her seconds to rumble them off
But she finds it difficult against the benins because yorubas never even had history

I noticed that too, which is a very big shame, she can hardly see anything without tribal colouration.

Imagine searching for Ryder's book in vain just to learn more about Benin just to twist, downplay and misrepresent what was said about Benin.

But thanks to her tenacity, other tribes are now learning more about ancient Benin.

People look at Benin now and find it had to understand how great it once was.

A city that was once comparable to even European cities of the same era.

The Benin people were by no means inferior to the Europeans.

One English man once described Benin of that era as being a very clean city without crime where people can leave their doors opened and in contrast, London of the same era was crime infested with poor sanitation.

Benin where were people did things with great thoughts and logic not the Nigeria we have today.

TAO11:
Thanks for addressing the two specifics I mentioned, with so much clarifying details that puts things in their proper contexts.

I am particularly glad to see that you didn't mince words in joinimg me to debunk the imaginary idea of "street lights" which is oft-repeated in Benin apologetics, and which as may have been seen is mentioned on this same thread.

My objective with all these is to make some (if not all) of these boys to begin living in the real world and escape the fairytale world of an imaginary Benin kingdom which they have been bombarded with unfairly.

Regarding the "shiny walls", I have always considered this too to be another grandiose idea considering the similar way in which it is often put in Benin apologetics.

The specific imagery they force down is of a city wall made of some "special" materials other than clay.

In other words, they give the deceptive and highly fantastic impression of some kind of different primary component from what is obtainable in any other ancient 'Nigeria' walled-city.

Your clarification in this regards (with reference) puts things in the proper perspective --- thus making it precisely clear that te material is the same --- clay, but that the emphasis is simply on the fact the the structure is thoroughly smotheened out after construction.

Thanks for the clarification and the references.

Anyhow you try to downplay it, iron made poles of about 20 feet with oil lamps where place at strategic locations in the square which were light on special occasions.

Call it square lights or Street lights, it doesn't matter, what matters is, this indigenous idea could be seen as a precursor to street lights or as some put it, Benin was the very first few cities in the world to have a semblance of street lights.

You can read it with your tribal lens the way you like, whilst the audience will see it for what they were.

TAO11:
I thought as much. I've searched everywhere I can in vain.

Thanks!

When I said this lady is deeply in love with Benin history, she denied it.

Everyone can now see for themselves that the love is infectious.

She is a total convert to Benin history, who wouldn't be.

Thanks to her, aspects of Benin history that people do not even know about are being revealed.

Even TAO11 is learning and loving it.

Animosities aside.

Huge thanks to those of you that have made this thread very educative and informative.

I am glad that our audiences, both the Benin, Yoruba and other tribes are getting educated and learning new information about a Nigeria and an African independent civilisation that mesmerised the Europeans as far back as 600 years ago.

It was even stated that the mathematics that was used to construct the Benin wall was not even discovered by Europeans at that time, so they were initially confused by how it was done.

It was after they discovered the mathematics centuries later in Europe that the wall made sense to them.

The Nigeria of today can hardly mesmerised even blacks from Africa countries let alone Europeans.

Where did will get it wrong

TAO11:
He showed how Benin won battles along the axis where it seeks to exercise influence.

And I showed how those individually smaller kingdoms too one some occassion disgraced the bigger Benin.

What's so difficult to get here if there is no strong delusions at work.

Haaa! Oranmiyan, na God go judge you oo /s For almost 1000 years, it's still very potent.

Benin were doing their destruction from the east while the Fulani were doing theirs from the North. Benin were introducing their own gods from the east, Fulani were conquering and introducing Islam from the North.

Believe me, I get all the angers

TAO11:
Gosh!!! No "street light" c'mon.

It was Dapper that said all those nonsense that you all get excited about and which your edo websites regurgitated into your heads.

Guys, it's for you to live in tge real-world.

Dapper never left his home country of Netherlands till he left this world.

What a pity!?

Dapper quoted the works of other European who visited Benin the way you have been quoting your 1969 Ife discovery of some stones and dirt.

TAO11:
A few Benin chiefs that rendered Benin kingdom deaolate, sacked and into a mere village?? Wehdone sir!

Moreover, if you all want to talj about wins:

Then I have shown how Owo dealt gave Benin a bloody nose once in the the 1500s (I think) in the clash when Iken ---- the top most Benin military commander lost his life.

I have shown how Benin was dealt with a second time during the reign of Olowo Osogboye outside the village of Ute.

I have shown how Otun-Ekiti dealt with Benin causing a number of Benin commanders to be slaughtered, which then force Benin to initiate a peace-pact.

In the final analysis in the light of these considerations and others, such imagined absolute control which you all have been deluded with by your edo-websites is only audio.

What seem to be ore realistic in that axis is the picture of a Benin which is powerful no doubt but which still faces some tough time and resistance from those it may seek to dominate in that axis.


It is thjs reality f the real world I have been baptizing you all into out from the world of fantastic delusion that have been painted for i Benin moonlight tales from a very early age.

Your account seems to be the audio here while the submissions of Davidnazee are the accounts of Yoruba writers themselves.

TAO11:
Why are you lying na?

Scholars already documented in the same article you're attaching oo that:

"Towards the end of the seventeenth century, a number of European observers noted that the Edo Kingdom of Benin had been racked for some years by civi war. One of the longest accounts, that of David van Nyendael, reported that as a result of this civil war, Benin City had been sacked and in his day ("1699 -1701" ) was reduced to a 'mere village'. Apparently beginning shortly before 1690, the civil war stretched on well into the eighteenth century."

Paula Ben-Amos Girshick and John Thornton, "Civil War in the Kingdom of Benin, 1689-1721: Continuity or Political Change?", Journal of African History, 42 (2001), pp.353-354.

Your continuous engagement with Davidnazee is causing eastern Yoruba, the Ekiti and Akure people a great disservice, I don't think you are from this area.

How do you want the people from this area to feel with all these revelations.

These are probably part of their history they would have loved to forget and hide from their young ones and other tribes.

Other tribes are also reading all these revelations of decimation of eastern Yoruba.

All you can counter with is the rebellion of few Benin chiefs that were defeated.

TAO11:
Me: Ife dates to at least 4century BC. And cites reference to the 1969 report of the Ife survey.


You: Benin is older oo. And cites .... errrrm .... nothing ... oh... cites his imagination.


Sane Observer: Who be this AreaFada2 abi Ofada?? Abeg go quarantine jor.

Your attitude and mannerism reminds me of Fuke Akindele and Oshodin Oke in the Yoruba movie Omo Ghetto. You are real Omo Ghetto.

AreaFada2:
Lol. Lucky you. Sadly I am one of those working flat out at this period. God help us.

Amen and keep safe while you do your bit for humanity.

AreaFada2:
What she forgets is that new discoveries push the boundaries of knowledge and we know very little about the world still.

A few decades back a molecular biology prof would stride in the auditorium confident about the "Central Dogma of Molecular Biology": DNA makes RNA makes protein. Let this be your take away message if anything, he would say.

Then came retroviruses like HIV and rubbished that dogma.

People interpret the Bible to suggest that humans are only 6,000 years old. But human fossils found in the Afar Region of Ethiopia have rubbished that. Man has been way over 100,000 years earlier.

But here they think they already know it all because of some publications.

I have argued my point for about 9 years here. I have no time to dissipate on "generation after generation" of them.

The truth is most of them can't reason and think at this level, education to them is the ability to write few sentences in English irrespective of how illogical and the use of uncouth and foul languages to compliment it.

Every now and then, their less informed supporters will resurrect from nowhere to applaud them to keep them going.

I am just having a bit of fun to kill some boredom due to the lockdown.

TAO11:
I killed the above lie before, but I just noticed now that you're desperate to ressurect it, although in vain.


In a 1969 report of a preliminary archaeological survey of Ife, Paul Ozanne shows that evidence shows that many settlements have been established in Ife since at least the 4th centuryBC.

Reference: 
Paul Ozanne: "A Preliminary Report of an Archaeological Survey of Ife"; also "A New Archaeological Survey of Ife," Odu, new series, 1, 1969, pp.131-148.


Show me ANYTHING EARLIER from Benin Kingdom. I challenge all Benin LIARS.


Una go hear word by force.

You are smart enough to know that humanity started in Africa and archaeological surveys of most parts of Africa would probably reveal settlement that are old as thousands of years.

So archaeological surveys of any African village means very little compared to the discovery of actual flourishing civilisation and a functioning society with advanced and complex systems of government.

Such civilisation was what was witnessed and recorded in Benin by Europeans 600 years ago not some dirt and stones that were dug out of the ground in Ife in 1969.

TAO11:
I know those dates to help you Benin start living life in the real world.

You all seem to have been caged into some fairy-tale world of Benin delusions.

Thanks to my 'knowledge' of "bEnIn HiStOrY dAtEs" that has been removing chains from your necks.

If not for me you will still be here screaming at the top of your voice: according to Guinness World Records, the largest ancient man-made is bEnIn wAlLs.

As well as screaming: Oba owns the land from Benin to Europe.

If Queen com slap Oba now, una go say she wicked!!!

Irrespective of what you say, most aspects of the history of Benin, especially the classical Benin cannot be fabricated.

I wonder how you feel when you remember this...oh I forgot you actually claim to have more stake in the Benin project than some of us. It must be very soothing to you.

TAO11:
Do you have any sense of dates at all?? ??

I quoted you evidence showing that Benin Kingdom was was RACKED and GROUNDED BY civil war from around 1690 up until well into the 1700s

Yet you are here showing me what happened at the tail end of the 1700s --- 1790 to be precise.

In fact, point out one statement in that your attachment which shows that event described therein was not happening in a mere village.


I actually just realized now that one of your Oba was a fvcking gambler.

Look at the way you are quoting Benin history dates of over 600 years and you tell me you are not mesmerised by Benin.

You are building career around Benin history, reeling out dates and you tell me you are not in love with Benin history.

For over a week now, you have been fixated day and night on Benin history even when other of your supporters have all run away. Benin is like opium that gets you high and turns you on.

I doubt if you even know your history and Yoruba history this way....sorry nothing was really recorded about Ife around the same time when Benin was wining and dining Europeans with lavish bouquets which were complimented with entertainments.

Ife hadn't yet been invented.

One can just imagine our impressive Benin would have been between 1400s to 1897 that make the European keep visiting and writing wonderful stories about the city.

Any city that attaches the appellation city to it's name is fake and counterfeit.

Benin City remains the authentic City. Infact Benin is not complete without city being added to the name.

They called the place city before Nigeria even know the meaning of the word.

Benin was the only place early Europeans visited that was fit to be called a city in West Africa.

Irrespective of how you try to downplay these events, you are unwittingly helping to showcase Benin history to our audience, especially the younger ones that these information are new to.

Davidnazee and Gregyboy, great job for all the lectures you are giving TAO11 and her other comrades who are also silently learning on the background.

Good job guys.

TAO11:
" ... Apparently beginning shortly before 1690, the civil war stretched on WELL into the eighteenth century."

Reference:
Paula Ben-Amos Girshick and John Thornton, "Civil War in the Kingdom of Benin, 1689-1721: Continuity or Political Change?", Journal of African History, 42 (2001), pp.353-354.

The expression above in bold does not look to any stable mind as a very short period of time.

And we are still waiting since last week for the evidence of your "audio dominance"

Also, remember to charge your phone oo

TAO11:


(11) I admitted this but clarified that this could only have happened in the early beginnings or infancy years of Oyo --- a time where it also payed tributes to an historically-inconsequential kingdoms such as Owu-Yoruba in the south, and also to the Bariba in the North-west and Nupe in the North-East.

I argued that there was no evidence or traces of such tribute payment from Oyo to anyone as soon as it attained imperial status when it had been forced (by the Owu, Bariba, Nupe) to learn and perfect the art of war.

Good to know Oyo used to be the weeping boy of all super powers and mediocre powers around.

1. Oyo paid tributes to Benin
2. Oyo paid tributes to Owo
3. Oyo paid tributes to Bariba
4. Oyo paid tributes to Nupe

Fulani permanently took ilorin from Oyo.

No wonder you guys are fixated with Benin to hide all these defeats.

TAO11:
If you will not twist, not lie, and not take my statement out if its intended context (as you you've already done here for bigotry purposes), then why not. ??

While I've been addressing all your contentions in full, there is one simple question that you've been consistently avoiding oo. See below:

Is it true that the gReAt BeNiN kInGdOm was reduced to a MERE VILLAGE ?? ??

Please say No. Don't disappoint gReAt BeNiN kInGdOm.

So it's settled then. According to you, the Fulani ruling elites of Ilorin were initially Yorubas.

So there were Fulani Yorubas.