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Now dorox, would you consider it justice if the thief on the cross was granted an eternal bliss? While the other that railed on Jesus ends in eternal destruction?

God gave a condition, how many times did Adam and Eve need to flout it to face the consequences ?

Kindly answer these.

Now dorox, would you consider it justice if the thief on the cross was granted an eternal bliss?

Jozzy4:
thats not her question: , she said


do u believe also that the two hands, two feet s and two eyes of a man go to hell with him ?

she said if thats true, why is it that nobodys hands, feet and eyes have dissapeared in their coffin ? let me add that in most burials , the dead at kept for sometimes before the burial day . so why are these body parts not dissapearing to hell ?

Christ there referred to the temporal and the final. Remember that the rich man lifted his EYES IN HELL AND ASKED FOR WATER TO COOL HIS TONGUE!

Jozzy4:
trash, see the bold , perfect description of an animal . the dragon give this animal or beast his power and authority

how then can a BEAST be MAN of sin ?



the bible said BEAST , with two horns like a lamb.

how then can a BEAST be men ?



whats your point, that the beast SYMBOLIZE men ?

The essence here is that we establish what is a symbol and what is not.
Daniel 7:17
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth

Parallel verses show that the beast so described is a man, a ruler. While parallel verses show that the fire of torment means exactly that.
Indeed the same Revelations describes Jesus as a Lamb as it had been slain found in the midst of the Throne!

goodnews201668:
Take it easy, must you MIX things up?

All these portions you are quoting has been discussed here.
Matthew 10:28 interestingly didn't mention torment as you guys want to interpret it. Jesus rather used the word fear him that can "destroy" both body and soul.
This means once a person is destroyed by God he has no prospect of life anymore!

And what will the never-dying worms be doing? Remember the story of Lazarus that the rich man was tormented in the flame.(not an earthly gehenna).

Your second question shows you are confused or maybe you have to throw more light.

Revelations 20 is talking about a different thing entirely, however that place definitely doesn't support the false doctrine of hellfire.
And not literal fire, devil,hell and death were hurled into that lake of fire and this is not an ordinary or physical event.
What does it signify?
The Bible answered "this means the second death" unless you don't agree with the Bible or you may want to change it to suit your hellfire belief.

second death-eternal torment in a lake of fire- and the devil will be involved!

Simple eternal destruction, clear everything bad including the devil.

While the worms will be kept alive? Dont be preposterous!

It might be hard for you to come to terms with these facts, so many other persons didn't find it easy either, I am an example.
But the by is very clear on this issue only if we take out time to examine it with the aid of the holy spirit.

Jesus clearly said the fire will never be quenched and the worms will not die, Revelations also said they will be tormented and HAVE NO REST day or night fOREVER!!!

WHY WOULD IT TALK OF NO REST IF THEY WOULD BE CONSUMED
Revelation 14:10,11
10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Jozzy4:
interesting, this beast will b tormented

" and I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and SEVEN HEADS, and on its horns ten diadems, but on his head blasphemous names"

" Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a Lions mouth" - Reve 13:1,2

REALLYYYYYYYYYY?

Let's see:

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority
Rev. 13:2

The last sentence reveals that the beast here is the Man of sin Paul mentioned in 2 Thessa 2; same is the prince in Daniel 9 now Rev speaks of 42 months while Daniel says 3.5 years do the maths and see that they are both saying the same thing and referring to the same person whose coming is after the working of satan. That is clear. Now the Lake of fire that torments eternally is the same in all parallel verses from Isaiah to Matthew, Mark, Luke and Revelations!

here is the false prophet another beast too, tell me which zoo am gonna found it

"
Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. [b] It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed.
And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.
It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.
" - Rev 13: 11-13

these beasts are real beasts that can be tormented ? unh ?

they are men that will be tormented afterwards.

same reference said Babylon the great , TWO lion like wild beasts will be tormented, HOW REAL IS THAT TO YOU ?

Besides , read Daniel 7:17 and SEE that Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander the Great, Etc were also symbolized by Beasts!

goodnews201668:
It's a valley and not everything gets to the fire when thrown inside Gehenna, hence the fire doesn't consume everything.

so Jesus was saying God will destroy both body and soul in an earthly Gehenna (Matt 10:,28), is that what you are claiming? And man also destroys the body on earth too??

The worms then consume anything that the fire didn't consume just like a normal refuse dump where you have worms constantly!
Worms are ever present.

Interesting! So the passage in Isaiah still refers to an Earthly Gehenna after we have a New Earth and Heaven? And since we bury the dead when exactly will God re-cast them to an earthly Gehenna?

Again Jesus is not talking about hellfire, that's why he mentioned throwing of our body parts,mind you body parts like eyes,legs and so forth.
Jesus said 'cut it out' and throw into......
Than having a complete body parts and not making the kingdom.

So those in Revelations 20 together with the devil and the beast etc will be cast into an earthly Gehenna with a man made, unquenchable fire?

Tell me, at that time, who will be responsible for keeping the fire burning?

Jozzy4:
despite that you still went ahead to say if that was a visible place, google gehenna ( valley of hinnom) and lets know if its a visible place or not ! cheers .

Google? You explain what technology sustains a worm in a man made fire but consumes the men.

Jozzy4:
all i see there is an insecured man trying to justify a false reasoning , and someone on this thread ask you did Revelation divide the things in the lake of fire to personality and non personality ?

point is the passage definitely says the devil, beast and false prophet will be tormented but since the passage is silent on grave etc, i'll be silent too.

they All are going to the same lake of fire, wht happen to A inside the well applies to B too !

being your opinion.

so come out clean , tell us what happen to ALL in the lake of fire ?

Using which reference? As for the men that will be cast there, we have other parallel passages that shows they would likewise be tormented forever.

goodnews201668:
Gehenna is a place where they burn someone it could be a criminal who doesn't deserve a befitting.
The worm are there to consume anything that the fire didn't consume.
It's outside the city and it also served as a refuse dumb.
The fire is constant always because sulphur and brimstone was added to keep the fire burning.
The Jews knew what Jesus had in mind.

Jesus said cut of eyes, hands or legs etc or anything that will make you not to inherit the kingdom and throw inside the fire. So the fire Jesus was talking about the importance of doing away anything that'll stop us from making the kingdom.
If Jesus talk about throwing some part of body he is being figurative here, not to be understand literally.
In all Jesus using fire here is not supporting the false doctrine of hellfire.

Interesting! Tell me, how do the worms in this physical Gehenna survive such burning!

Jozzy4:
please answer her questions which are based on that chapter you quote from, am interested.

Go read Revelations 20:12-15 and discern how the dead will STAND before God.

Jozzy4:
all this baseless twisting

tell me, what happen to All in the lake of fire ?

Scholar8200:
Where is the quote where I said "Grave will be TORMENTED forever!" Why claim I said something and cannot quote it?
If I would accept that I said anything, this is it:
CANTICLES:
the point is clear, its torment is explained as Destruction
are death and Grave personalities too, so what happen to them in the Lake of fire ?
SCHOLAR8200:
Revelations is silent on that, I will be too. Those that were mentioned as personalities-devil, beast, false prophet, sinners- will be tormented therein.
Now in the same fashion quote where I said the grave will be TORMENTED.

My answer to your question can be gleaned from my response.

Jessicha:
mtcheeew

he asked 'do u mean GRAVE will be burned forever ? what was your response

He claimed I said Grave will be TORMENTED, then let him show it!

Jessicha:
Jesus is describing Gehenna a location visible to his listeners not an imaginary hell.



the worms in Gehenna act on carcasses of dead men thrown there . the very expression of worms and fire represents their destruction .

" and they will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh " Isaiah 66:24


i guess going by your analogy , the carcasses of this men described here is still burning and still eating by worms .

you left out the fire that is not quenched! If that was a visible place, who lit that unquenchable fire?

Per that quote from Isaiah, hope doctoralien is seeing the error of annihilation?

Now ma'am, the worm and the man will die not, period.

MizJanet:

churchianity man, is this not the same quote I gave that made you run from the other thread


didn't the bible Jesus also said in this same chapter that the two feet , the two hands , and two eyes of man also go to hell ?

IF YOU BELIVE THAT, TELL ME WHY NOBODY HAVE DIED and the eyes disapeared from their socket , and his two feets and hands not found in his coffin ?

ok

Jessicha:
dont display idiocy here . the guy showed screenshot of u admiting grave will be burned FOREVER , didnt he ?

you are like a man who was asked : All your children are Abroad ? he said "Yes" . only to deny later that I never said my children are abroad . lol why say Yes in the first place.


gerrarahere.

now that you have resurfaced, care to help your fellows on the meaning of this:


48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48

It says the Fire will not be quenched-Everlasting (Doctoralien take note). And that their worm dieth not (immortality). What then becomes of those cast there? What will the worms be acting on?

Jessicha:
dont display idiocy here . the guy showed screenshot of u admiting grave will be burned FOREVER , didnt he ?

you are like a man who was asked : All your children are Abroad ? he said "Yes" . only to deny later that I never said my children are abroad . lol why say Yes in the first place.


its called ignorance

Where is the quote where I said "Grave will be TORMENTED forever!" Why claim I said something and cannot quote it?

If I would accept that I said anything, this is it:

CANTICLES:

the point is clear, its torment is explained as Destruction

are death and Grave personalities too, so what happen to them in the Lake of fire ?

SCHOLAR8200:
Revelations is silent on that, I will be too. Those that were mentioned as personalities-devil, beast, false prophet, sinners- will be tormented therein.


Now in the same fashion quote where I said the grave will be TORMENTED.

Rexben, can you answer these:
1. We know Paul was a very committed judaiser/pharisee who was against the Church. What changed him to a member of the church?
2. If you say he was a false prophet, whose interest was he serving as such?
3. Why did the jews persecute Paul like they did to the disciples?
4. Since Luke wrote both Luke and Acts, what criteria did you use in selecting the one and rejecting the other?
5. Since John wrote John, Revelations and 1,2&3 John, by what criteria do you choose one and reject the other?
6. Jesus said the Spirit will teach and reveal those things which He did not say then. The audience that were with Him and those that were used recorded theirs in the Epistles. What has been revealed to you by the Spirit (not recorded in the gospels since Jesus did not say it then)?

If you have answered b4, quote it.

[quote author=CANTICLES post=44888455][/quote]Where is the statement: Grave will be TORMENTED made by me?
You twist till you even try to twist this too?

CANTICLES:
provided you can prove angels inherit sin and death ?

nevertheless, none of them have immortality except Jesus ALONE . 1tim 3:16. bible talk am not canticles

Turning the tables under color?
But you made the claim didnt you?

Now and why did Jesus liken the resurrected saints with the angels?

Matthew 22:30

CANTICLES:
dear friend, what if I was able to give concrete evidence of you saying Grave will be burned forever ? will u admit you are the Liar ?

would it prove that you actually dont put your mind in what is been discussed ? to the extent you forget what u said




here is the screenshot , marked with red .

Now show me where I said the Grave will be TORMENTED forever in that picture! At least that was what you claimed I said!

DoctorAlien:
Read Rev.20. Satan himself, the prince of rebellion, will be destroyed completely by the eternal fire.

what makes the fire eternal? Besides, do you agree with your friend that claims the fire is symbolic?

CANTICLES:
no one ask you this gramatical riddles

the point is nephesh is SOUL ? yes

the bible talks about a dead Nephesh / soul/ ? yes





can I know what you understand by being in Gods image ?,

cos if u equate being in God image with been immortal , why then are we not ALSO ALMIGHTY, ALL POWERFUL , like God ? its a serious question


i will show u countless verses refering to man as Mortals . man born of woman is short lived says the bible

I expect my answers first viz, Bible passage that documents the death of an angel.

CANTICLES:
actually, I dont expect you to say YES ! the point is clear , infact am happy u said u know what it suggests .

It seems you missed the meaning of that reply.

this jumbo jumbo style of discussion is not called for , the point I stressed before u quote this is : only Jesus is given immortality .

immortality means cannot die . therefore if only Jesus is given immortality 1 tim 3:16 . all other angelic beings can die

Call it whatever, however, give ONE proof of an 'angelic death' in the bible. (until you do this all posts from you that mentions my name would be ignored).

they start existing by creation .. they dont exist before they were created ! and can be returned to their former non existence state since they are not immortal .

By what means then are they being held now as per the ones that fell still kept in chains of darkness?

even demons know the judgement waiting for them is DESTRUCTION.
- Mark 1:24

And that an everlasting one, quite different from a conclusive one.

Dr. Young in his popular Young's Analytical Concordance, p. 995, defines this word, kolasis, as "a pruning, restraining". And although Strong's Exhaustive Concordance merely tells us kolasis derives from the source words kolazo and kolos (which means "to curtail", The New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance tells us that kolasis comes from kolazo and kolos and that kolos means "docked" ("dock .... 1. to cut off" - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary).


And what does highly respected NT Greek expert W. E. Vine say about the source word (kolazo) for kolasis in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 903 ?: "kolazo primarily denotes to curtail, prune, dock (from kolos, docked)."



An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon says that kolazo is "Properly, to curtail, dock, prune" - p. 441, Liddell & Scott, Oxford, 1994 printing.

This will make sense if the passage in question was the basis of this, not just a picking up of the word possibly from another passage where the usage denotes curtail and presenting it here, be forthright!

lol, the beast SYMBOLIZE that person ryt ? to take it literal is to say an actual beast will be thrown into the Lake of fire

This has been cleared using 2 Thess 2. Pretending not to see it is one of the problems here. PAul there calls him by another name-man of sin!, Jesus in Matthew 24 calls him the abomination of desolation etc he that is ignorant, let him be ignorant still.

since you confess the beast represents someone , wht does the Lake of fire in which the beast is thrown represents ?

Parallel passages quoted before answers this question!
First you said the Fire is symbolic; next,it is a literal Fire but it will annihilate the devil Where do you stand?!

remember a symbolic beast cant be thrown into a literal lake of fire !

There you go!

grave will be tormented forever ? o my God.

Quote where I said that or accept that you have told a barefaced lie!

lols , everyone on the thread could now see your desperation to cover the loop holes in ur false teaching .

And everyone can see your frantic efforts to twist the truth to suit your doctrines!

haba, u are the one dividing personalty nd non personalty . the bible did not bro

Explain Hebrews 4:12.

face the fact, if the lake of fire is a literal place of torment it simply means death and Grave will be tormented forever !

Then by what means will the devil and antichrist be punished forever? Answer!(Live out Fire since you claim it is a symbol of something; a claim that contradicts Matthew 25:46!0

but the bible says instead they will be no more " Rev 21:4 , 1 cor 15:26. very simple and full of sanity

Your meaning read into it.

oga, bossom of the man called Abraham, thats it ! his chest

There lies your insincerity! You flee to Vine, Young, Greek etc for one word (not even in the right context) but cleave to the English here?!

DoctorAlien:
You have not supported your false view that the soul is immortal with Biblical texts.

I have, you have chosen to close your eyes to them!

I used to have a fellow corps member just like you. Show him scriptures that contradicts his claims and when he has nothing to say, he jots it down and continues arguing blindly! The passage jotted down would not be re-visited again!

CANTICLES:
dont defend the indefensible , everyone knows Numbers 6:6 and Leviticus 21:11 was twisted to read body despite the fact that nephesh in the Hebrew scriptures means soul . this is a general knowledge that even strongs admit

twisted because the JW were there since the early centuries? Whose interest was the twisting to serve? Answer!

Strong's >
Hebrew > 5315
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Strong's Concordance
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
Original Word: נָ֫פֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-fesh)
Short Definition: soul

The same strong was quoted before now hence in considering these synonyms, a recourse to the context, parallel passages and the whole revelation of scripture shows which is intended!

every concordance admit this .

living nephesh = livin soul

dead nephesh = dead soul

Where are your references?

lifeless as the dust from which he was formed, he was a moulded dust . it still needs the breath of life to activate its vital organs .

even animals the bible said have the breath of life in their nostrils - Gen 7:21,22 . its essential for life .

But they are not in God's Image hence the aspect of immortality does not concern animals even if a pronoun is used for them.


the day u lost that divine breath is the day the person dies. and will return to the ground from which he or she was taken.
(psalm 104:29,30)

in the case of Adam , the wages sin pays is death . opposite of life . and he eventually dies and return to the ground ( Gen 3:19) , he died that day not end of life but a spiritual death, which eventually leads to his end of life .[/quote]

dorox:
No one is disputing the fact that a teacher has the right to set an exam and to pass or fail his students according to their performance, what is in contention is the penalty for failure. Imagine being asked to write an exam where a failed result means that your eyes will be plucked out of their sockets and your four limbs will be chopped off. Would you say that is a fair exam? Hellfire is much worse than that.

I understand, but remember that the penitentiary here was originally reserved for inveterate fiends, not man. However if knowing this we decide to still go against God, well remember that He is both a God of Love and justice.

DoctorAlien:
Now, do you know that the Bible refers to animals as souls too?

"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea" Rev. 16:3

Now, are the souls of animals immortal too?

I know, however, no where is there any remote allusion to the immortality of animals after all they were not created in God's Image!

Now see the Word thus translated:

◄ 5590. psuché ►
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
soul, life, self

From psucho; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely ([size=14pt]the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma[/size], which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay) -- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Do we blame the translators for using a transliteration here? NO, they were not 21st century linguistic scholars. Besides, it is clear that no one assumed wrongly that the synonym for soul=immortal. That holds only in man, made in the Divine Image.

DoctorAlien:
Psalm 104:29,30 "Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust..."

How can you say the before GOD gave Adam the breath of life, he was alive, since the removal of the breath results in death? If Adam was alive before GOD breathed into his nostrils, was there any need of GOD doing so again?

Before we proceed I suggest you change that passage to one with proper application to man, that one refers to the animals enumerated in vs 25-28!

dorox:
So are you saying that the opportunity of having eternal bliss in heaving justifies eternal torture?

Justifies? A student has the choice to either pass or fail, and if the teacher does his job very well, he(teacher) is not to blame if one chooses not to pass!

point is, there are just two options and we have our free will. Just as it will be unjust to give a pass mark to a student who fails woefully...

DoctorAlien:
Here is another proof of the fact that without the breath of life, man is lifeless:

"Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, and they are created" Psalm 104:29,30

Vs 25-28 was talking of the animals, not man.

DoctorAlien:
You can call him a corpse, yeah. The Bible is very clear that Adam was lifeless after GOD created him. Then GOD breathed into his nostrils, and he became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7)

Are you saying Adam was dead initially at creation? If yes, why did he not return to the same state after he sinned? Or, was satan right after all?