₦airaland Forum

rexben:
This beliefs are culled and gotten from on Jesus' words. Some of the beliefs of the disciple of Jesus include --
-- They believe and continue in the words of Jesus. And you can only find Jesus' words from the gospels i.e MATTHEW,MARK,LUKE AND JOHN ONLY.

What of Revelations? Then since Jesus assured the Apostles that the Spirit will lead them into the Truth He would not reveal then, and Jesus also commanded these to,"Feed My Sheep/Lambs" and that," if they keep My saying, they will keep yours", are you not disobeying the Lord Whom you claim to follow by rejecting those He approved?

31 Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, "If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
John 8:31-32.
--They receives His words like a little child.
I tell you the truth, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will never enter it."
Mark 10:15.
--They don't follow the voice of a stranger. They don't follow any other words apart from Jesus words because He is their shepherd. They don't follow Paul nor his teachings because he is a stranger.

How about Peter (the one specifically commanded to feed His lambs), John etc?

--They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him, because they do not recognize the stranger's voice."
John 10:5
--They don't go to church,neither do they belong to any Christian institutions or denominations. Worship has no location. It is neither in temples,nor camp grounds but in Spirit and in truth.

How then are we to observe the Lord's supper? Remember it was observed not in isolation but in fellowship!

Or do you urge converts to baptise themselves? Again why then did Jesus command that new believers be taught?

20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you people say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem." 21 Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But a time is coming - and now is here - when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:20-24.
--Jesus is their only shepherd (PASTOR),no man is or has any capability of pastoring or shepherding.
They are not pastors and they don't have any pastor. Jesus is the only PASTOR.

And He said ,"Feed My sheep" meaning there are that serve Him in that capacity.

14 "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me - 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that do not come from this sheepfold. I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, so that there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:14-16.
--They are not to be called teachers neither are they to call anyone teacher. For is their teacher which is Christ.
But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers.
Matt 23:8.
--Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one teacher, the Christ.
Matt 23:10.
--They call no man their father on earth. For one is their Father ,who is in heaven. They don't even ascribe the term or authority FATHER to any man on earth not even their biological father,spiritual father,god father.
And call no one your 'father' on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Matt 23:9.

But He commanded thus:"TEACHING them to observe all things..." What then?

--They have a new family not their biological family because they are born of the Spirit. Born again means to be BORN THE SECOND TIME. So your first birth has been done away with. In this second birth,God is now their Father. Your mother,brother and sister are those that do God's will. A new family,God's family.
48 To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, "Who is my mother and who are my brothers?" 49 And pointing toward his disciples he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
Matt 12:48-50.
And whoever has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Matt 19:29.
--They are not from this world. They are not citizens of any country on this earth. Not Nigerians,Americans,Chinese,Ghanaian etc.
They do not belong to the world just as I do not belong to the world.
John 17:16.
--They love their enemies,don't pray nor wish their enemies death. They bless those that curse them.
43 "You have heard that it was said, ' Love your neighbor ' and 'hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 5:43-45.
--They don't resist an evil person,they don't take vengeance at all.
38 "You have heard that it was said, ' An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth .' 39 But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and to take your tunic, give him your coat also. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not reject the one who wants to borrow from you.
Matt 5:38-42.
--They don't swear at all not even in the LAW COURT.
Let your word be 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no.' More than this is from the evil one.
Matt 5:37.
--They don't pray in the open. Not in churches, not in dinning halls.
But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.
Matt 6:6.
--THEY ARE ARE NOT CHRISTIANS, THEY ARE DISCIPLES,STUDENTS AND EVEN FOLLOWERS OF JESUS.
You can get more of this beliefs in the gospels. Matthew,Mark,Luke and John only. And you shall know the truth,and the truth shall set you free. John 8:32o

Some called them the sect of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem, others called them Christians in the Gentile world, these and other names refer to the Disciples/followers of Jesus Christ!

MrPresident1:
He was subject to his own law!

By choice, because of LOVE!

MrPresident1:
God married Israel, Israel committed adultery, Israel was condemned, Israel must die according to the law. In order for Israel not to be eternally damned, God incarnated into Jesus Christ and rather than Israel to be cast off for ever, he had to die. He subjected Himself to the law He made.

The sinless God died so that His wife may live!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

MrPresident1:
The flood story was not literal, what is the meaning of this?

How large was the ark to accommodate all the animals in the world

This is preposterous!

Besides, you are being anachronistic here. The world had not dispersed and were huddled together in Noah's time. And how many species were there?I hope you realise that NO acquatic animal was in the Ark? The rest were in pairs and some in sevens.

MrPresident1:
When he was mortal man, he was fully God and fully man, no?

Yes, He had the right and chose to subject Himself thus far just as He transcends same! Remember in the garden of arrest? He could have ended it there with 12 legions of Angel but He chose to go all the way to the cross for you!

MrPresident1:
Scholar8200 and KingEbukasBlog, please explain to me why Jesus Christ (God) had to come and die.

You guys are just unbelievable!

This is preposterous!

Oh because:
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Corinth 15:21

And we needed a Man who was not under the bondage occasioned by the former but after the order of the former being God's original archetype!

MrPresident1:
Why did Jesus have to come and die? Why did he subject himself to the law

Who is Jesus Christ, isn't he God anymore

That could only take place when He put on mortality and became in the likeness of man.

Empiree:
Barnabas: Originally known as Joseph, he was re-named Barnabas meaning ‘Son of Encouragement, Son of Consolation and Son of Exhortation’ by the twelve disciples. He is the only known member of the seventy-two other disciples of Jesus and was a once friend of Paul of Tarsus. He introduced Paul of Tarsus to the twelve disciples and persuaded them to accept him despite their reservations.

Seen

The Nazarenes

The followers of Jesus after he ascended were called ‘Nazarenes’ by others. [size=15pt]They did not believe Jesus was a divine or supernatural being. They accepted and embraced him as the Messiah, believed in his return to Earth.[/size]GOSH!!!!

The Nazarenes observed the Sabbath, practiced circumcision, did not eat the forbidden foods, fasted, forbade interest, continued the practices of Jesus and strictly observed the Mosaic Law.

After attempting to reach an understanding with Paul, the Nazarenes under Simon Peter and James ‘the brother of Jesus’ and Head of the Jerusalem Church, distanced themselves from him and broke irrevocably with him and disowned him.

1. If Simon Peter was a Nazarene with these beliefs then what went wrong when he wrote 1 & 2 Peter

2. If Peter and the other Apostles disowned Paul then why did Peter say this:

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him
2 Peter 3:15


Here Peter was writing to Gentile believers that Paul had evangelised; the Nazarenes were Jewish believers who held to their judaismic background and were based in Jerusalem. Also they were not the audience of the letter written in Acts 15.

And if they disowned Paul, why was Paul in Jerusalem, of all places, accused as the ringleader:'

"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect
Acts 24:5

Now concerning the Nazarenes, this much is said by wikipedia showing that your source doctored history to suit his/her blog:

Nazarene beliefs[edit]
The beliefs of the Nazarene sect or sects are described through various church fathers and heresiologists.

in Jesus as Messiah:
The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.

— Jerome, On. Is. 8:14
in the Virgin Birth:
They believe that Messiah, the Son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary.
[size=14pt]
— Jerome, Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine
in Jesus as the Son of God:
[/size]Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Cæsarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it. In this it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Saviour quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew. Wherefore these two forms exist “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” and “for he shall be called a Nazarene.”[/quote]Matthew/Levi wrote the Gospel account to these Nazarenes, using the Hebrew language and here you have it black and white:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/matthew/16.html(look out for vs 16-19)
and
http://adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/SDAcomms/Hebrew%20Gospel%20of%20MATTHEW%20by%20George%20Howard%20-%20Part%20One.pdf

So were the hawariyun the disciples known as Nasara commended in the Quran?

Empiree:
You keep mixing stuff to soothe you. Well, underlined, where in the Quran is praises "Peter" and which verse of Quran is that?. Want to know. I am nt here to defend Peter. I dont know him. I am here to defend Hawariyun, disciples, who truthfully grasped Jesus' teaching and taught it.

Here is a quote from the thread you directed me to:

Re: Jesus Disciples by ayenny02(m): 3:56pm On May 29, 2013
The Quran refers to those few people who had brought faith upon Jesus, followed him, supported him and helped him as the Hawa`riyun. These were the disciples of Jesus.

This name, Hawa`riyun is especially employed for those people who followed Jesus and helped him and not for the followers of any other Prophets, although every Prophet has a Hawari (‘sincere companion’) says the Prophet Muhammad in the following Hadith:

"Every Prophet has a Hawari (sincere companion), and my Hawari is Zubair"

The Definition of Hawariyun

Literally, the word Hawariyun is the plural of Hawariyun which means "He who whitens clothes", "He who has been appointed chosen and purified from all kinds of defects", "a companion and a helper

THE NAMES OF THE HAWARIYUN

Imam Qurtubi mentions that, the Hawariyun were twelve in number, but he does not give their names, except the name of the leader of the Hawariyun as Sham’oon (Simon Peter or Cephas) in the miracle of the ascension of the table, saying,

"Sham’oon, the leader of the disciples, asked, "Is this food that of paradise or the food of this world?" Jesus’ reply was, "This is food specially created for you, it is neither from paradise or this world. Allah said to it, "BE," and so it was.

Now I noticed the person quotes an Imam not the Quran. However, Muslim exegesis establishes that the disciple included: Peter, etc

The Qur'anic account of the disciples (Arabic: الحواريون‎ al-ḥawāriyyūn) of Jesus does not include their names, numbers, or any detailed accounts of their lives. Muslim exegesis, however, more-or-less agrees with the New Testament list and says that the disciples included Peter, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, Andrew, James, Jude, John and Simon the Zealot.[1]
Wikipedia


The Hawariyun, disciples, have been praised exceptionally and promised to be given superiority in the following verse of the Quran as well:

‘Remember when Allah said, "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you of the falsehoods and of those who blaspheme. I will make those who follow you, superior to those who reject faith, to the day of resurrection. Then you shall return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein you dispute." (Surah 3, Verse 55)
http://islamicglobalhistory..com.ng/2009/02/hawariyun.html

The foregoing establishes that Peter, among others, was one of the hawariyun recognised, he and the others were promised honour in the Quran, and history/the Bible reveals that he and they believed and taught that which you say is the unforgivable sin.

Do you agree with the Imam, the blog and the authors of the exegesis thus stated?

Empiree:
Still irrelevant to me. You really trying hard to catch. How Peter was killed and why still not relevant to me. Isnt the same Bible recorded Peter's betrayal of Jesus at the time of arrest or crucifixion?

Sure and it also records that he was restored when Jesus ,after resurrection, said to him to take care of His younger followers.

Okay, thankfully, the history of who Peter was and what he stood for is relatively closer than the almost difficult to verify ones of Samiri etc My actual question now is why would the Quran commend Peter and the 11 while also condemning those who believe and teach what Peter believed and taught?
And while you try to hide under claims(Peter did not say that) what about history?

Here you have aramaic translation of Matthew 16 see vs 16
http://biblehub.com/aramaic-english-gospels/matthew/16.htm

Empiree:
"When Jesus sensed their refusal to acknowledge the truth, he asked, "Who are my supporters in God's cause?" The disciples said, "We are God's supporters. We have believed in God, so bear witness that we have submitted".



We can not reply on extant Bible to derive who those disciples are because it is a mix. If Peter's teaching of Jesus in the Bible you have says Jesus is a messanger, prophets, and servant of God, then, we accept him as a true disciple. But if he (according to the bible) says Jesus is son of God, or he is God or art of trinity, then we throw it in the garbage.

Then adjust your Quran accordingly because as long as his name is mentioned as a faithful disciple, you will always meet with this contradiction!

However, we as Muslims have to be careful not to accuse Mr. Peter because it is Bible writers that speak for him. He might as well be a true disciple of Jesus(P).

Interesting! So, what about the Epistles he authored? Besides, aside from the Bible, we have enough in history to determine who Peter was and what he believed and taught! What then?

My point is those whom you regard as true disciples of Jesus in the Bible, if their teachings are in conflict with message Jesus brought, which is "Hear O Isreal, God Is One", then, we reject it.

While your Quran still commends him?
Now, why was Peter killed the way he was killed?

Empiree:
^^ Shallow reply. I knew that was exactly what you tried to do.

Anyways, Muslims have exaplined the so called "son of God" or Sonship many times. Remember I asked you in other thread what sonship means with respect to "begotten son"?. You said begotten was not defined to you. So now, question is according to Mr. Peter, what is his understanding of begotten, and is sonship or son of God literally or metaphorically?

And apart from that, where is the original manuscripts or I should say the exact language spoken by Simon Peter used for "Son Of God". This is English language that only came around centuries after Jesus. Until you can prove that, then, your logic is still baseless.

So explain Peter's 'original understanding of the meaning of sonship'' and back your explanation with references so you dont end up putting your opinions in his mouth. Besides, did Allah speak of explanation or just titles when all that use/believe that were condemned?

Note,

Go back to my post you just quoted, i didnt finish it before. I have added few things


Remind You Again Of The Hadith


The following are Hadith (narrations originating from the words Muhammad), collected by Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj Nishapuri, which indirectly emphasize Islamic beliefs concerning the disciples of Jesus:

It is narrated on the authority 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud that the Messenger of God observed: Never a Prophet had been sent before me by God towards his nation who had not among his people (his) disciples and companions who followed his ways and obeyed his command. [size=15pt]Then there came after them their successors who said whatever they did not practice, and practiced whatever they were not commanded to do.[/size] He who strove against them with his hand was a believer: he who strove against them with his tongue was a believer, and he who strove against them with his heart was a believer and beyond that there is no faith even to the extent of a mustard seed. Abu Rafi' said: I narrated this hadith to 'Abdullah b. 'Umar; he contradicted me. There happened to come 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud who stayed at Qanat, and 'Abdullah b 'Umar wanted me to accompany him for visiting him (as 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud was ailing), so I went along with him and as we sat (before him) I asked Ibn Mas'ud about this hadith. He narrated it in the same way as I narrated it to Ibn 'Umar. The same hadith has been transmitted by another chain of narrators on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud who observed: Never was there one among the prophets who had had not disciples who followed his direction and followed his ways. The remaining part of the hadith is like that as narrated by Salih but the arrival of Ibn Mas'ud and the meeting of Ibn 'Umar with him is not mentioned.

— Sahih Muslim

But Peter did not come after! He was a living witness! hence this does not apply to him.

Empiree:
This is your homework. It's quiet irrelevant when it comes to islam. Quran only sums it up by saying "among Jesus awariyun (disciples) are believers. Amongst them are disbelievers. We not concerned about their names. Not even sahaba (companions) of the prophet muhammad mentioned by name in the Qur'an. If you have Jesus' disciples in the bible recorded to have preached Jesus pure teachings, bring them forward.


I know what you trying to do. This is very simple. I can't categori call mention names because Qur'an does not. All we know is Quran recognizes believers, hypocrites and disbelievers amongst his followers. For example in sura

Alright I did a little bit of the homework thanks to the thread you directed me to;it has this to say:

THE NAMES OF THE HAWARIYUN

Imam Qurtubi mentions that, the Hawariyun were twelve in number, but he does not give their names, except the name of the leader of the Hawariyun as Sham’oon (Simon Peter or Cephas) in the miracle of the ascension of the table, saying,

"Sham’oon, the leader of the disciples, asked, "Is this food that of paradise or the food of this world?" Jesus’ reply was, "This is food specially created for you, it is neither from paradise or this world. Allah said to it, "BE," and so it was.

Let's work with that. Peter said thus in Acts 3:13

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go

He also said in his epistle:
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2Peter 3:18

Furthermore, he said this:

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 16:16

Now since this is the same person credited as one of the faithful hawariyun, meaning he was one of those commended and assured of Paradise, does that not appear contradictory?

Empiree, I await your reply here; that other thread does not allow comments from non-muslims. Meanwhile, if you and_or the Quran accept that Simon Peter was one of the disciples that was among the commended, then I hope you remember that he believed all that you claim was an unforgivable sin! In fact he is the one that all 4 Gospels record that declared,''Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God''.

Any way I await your response.

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws . The argument has been God makes laws for us, but seems to disobey those laws Himself. If this is true, so it is argued, God demands more of us than He does of Himself. Let’s explore this argument to test its validity.

Basic Elements of Law


1. Authority.

Law, by its very nature, requires a few basic elements. First, there must be an established authority to make the law. In the case of federal law, the United States consists of branches of duly elected representatives of the people who pass and enforce laws. When it comes to natural law, there are no written ordinances, but the authority that established the principles that govern nature (i.e. God) put them in place by virtue of the fact that He created nature and so has the right to order it as He pleases (cf. Jer. 33:25). Divine Law that is given by revelation is higher than any human law. It is not set by man although many laws of man derive their authority from divine law—and thus from God Himself. Just as God made the elements of the natural world with the laws that govern them, God made man as a spiritual being and He alone holds the ultimate authority to regulate his behavior (Ps. 119:105).

2. Rules.

A second element common to all law is some type of rules or regulations. All laws mandate certain things that must operate a certain way. A system without rules is said to be lawless. Any system that is governed by law operates within set rules and guidelines. It could be a speed limit. The law mandates “70 miles per hour” as the maximum speed at which a vehicle can travel on a certain road. It could be behavior. It is a crime to steal. Law BooksThe nature of the rules depends upon the nature of the thing regulated. In some cases the authority that enforces the rule is understood to stand outside of the rule. The highway patrolman who exceeds 70 miles per hour is not guilty if he does this to catch a driver who is speeding. The policeman that confiscates stolen property is not a thief. Part of their authority exempts them from some measure of accountability to the very laws they must enforce.

3. Jurisdiction.

A third element of all law is jurisdiction. For law to have meaning there must be some realm over which a given law has dominion. The ancient laws of the Hittite empire may be curious relics of antiquity but they no longer hold any power because there is no longer a Hittite empire. The realm and the region over which these laws once held power no longer exists. In regional governments the issue of jurisdiction is paramount. The authority of one state cannot enforce its laws on the citizens of another because it does not have jurisdiction. By the same token, if I violate a practice that is considered criminal in another jurisdiction, but is permitted within the county, state, or country where I live I am not guilty. A good example of this is the burka worn by Muslim women. A woman in the United States is not a criminal if she refuses to wear a burka even though it is required by law in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

4. Subjects.

Finally, in a very similar way, all law must involve subjects—that is, those who are under obligation to that law. We as Nigerians are obligated to obey the laws of our nation because we are properly subjects of the government which holds authority over us, and thus subject to its laws.


God’s Relationship to His Own Laws

1. Laws of Nature.

As we all know God is the authority who established these laws. There are set rules that define these laws. Laws of gravity demand that a rock falls to the ground—it doesn’t float up into the sky. Is God within the jurisdiction of natural law? A key difference between the picture of the God of the Bible and the concepts of pagan false religions is what is called transcendence. Greek GodsThe God of the Bible exists outside of the natural realm that He created. In other words, while Zeus, or Anubis, or Odin were themselves subject to certain laws of nature, the God of the Bible stands outside of the jurisdiction of natural laws. He is the “unmoved Mover.” He is the First Cause of all things! That means He can make an ax-head float (2 Kings 6:5-6). He can make time stand still (Josh. 10:12-13). He can make the shadow of the sundial go backwards (2 Kings 20:10-11). He is not under the jurisdiction of natural law, but very atom within this present universe, together with every soul made in His image is. They are subjects of the natural laws that God established over His creation. Because God transcends the natural universe, He is not a subject of His own creation, and is therefore not subject to the laws that govern it.

2. Moral or Religious Law.

What about moral or religious laws? There is an interesting example that concerns the Sabbath commandment. The rules required that no ordinary work was to be done on the seventh day (Exod. 20:10). This was a law that was not given until the Law of Moses was revealed (Neh. 9:14). It was a law that was not restated under the Law of Christ (Col. 2:16). That means that those who worked on the seventh day before the Law of Moses, as well as those who now live under Christ, and even those who were not a part of the Mosaic covenant during the time of the Israelite commonwealth were outside of its jurisdiction and were not, therefore, subject to its regulation. What about God? This law was drawn from what was said about God’s creation (Exod. 20:11). The present universe was made in six days, but Scripture tells us that after this was done, God “rested on the seventh day from all the work which He had done” (Gen. 2:2). Even before this was given as a law to the Israelites, God is said to have “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it” (Gen. 2:3). The Hebrew writer, in one sense speaks of God’s works being “finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3-4), but Jesus, when criticized for healing on the Sabbath said, “My Father has been working until now, and I have being working” (John 5:16-17). Did God violate His own Sabbath law? No. He stood outside of its jurisdiction and like those before and after the Law of Moses, He was not subject to its regulation.


3. Genocide.

This may seem reasonable when we are talking about things like the Sabbath law, but what is most frequently criticized is God’s treatment of His creation. That is, He commands us not to murder, but then He has commanded the extermination of the Canaanites, and Amalekites. Or, He commands us not to harm one another but He promises to punish the wicked throughout all eternity. Is He breaking His own laws in these examples? What are the basic elements of law in these examples? God is, once again, the established authority and He has set the rules that govern appropriate behavior. Yet, has God defined all taking of life as wrong? No! It is true that man is not to avenge himself (Rom. 12:19), and God condemns murder (Exod. 20:13), but He grants to the civil authority the right to punish even to the point of death those guilty of certain laws (Rom. 13:4). Is the executioner a murderer? No. Like the policeman who speeds to catch someone speeding, the executioner in his authority to carry out punishment is (to a measure) exempt from accountability to the law he is enforcing (cf. Num. 35:27). God on some specific occasions commanded Israel (in essence) to act as His executioner (Deut. 7:1-5; 25:17-19; 1 Sam. 15:1-5). The Canaanites and Amalekites were among some of the most wicked people that history has every known (Deut. 9:4; Ps. 106:34-37). God bore with their wickedness for a time in order to give them time to repent (cf. Gen. 15:16). When the time came, He used Israel as the vehicle by which He ended their ability to do any more wickedness. Did He violate His own law? No. First, because He was never under the jurisdiction of this law, nor a subject to obey it, but also because the people whom He used to carry out His punishment were not violating any divine law themselves. They were carrying out lawful punishment—in this case in the form of warfare.

4. Eternal Punishment.

What about eternal punishment? The issue of jurisdiction is applicable to this question as well. God is not under the jurisdiction of the laws He has set for His creation. When Judgment Day comes the nature of the present jurisdiction will be changed. What rules will govern the age to come? The jurisdiction of the realm of the saved will not be the same as the jurisdiction of the realm of the condemned. For example, to some measure, in that age the present laws of nature will be changed. In the jurisdiction of the saved there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor pain because for them “the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). On the other hand, some of these things will exist for the lost—“the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” (Rev. 14:11). Is it cruel for God to punish the wicked eternally? Let’s consider this from another angle. If I create something—a piece of pottery, a bird house, a painting, or a machine—what rights do I have over that thing I have created? Am I cruel to the pottery if I reshape it into another vessel? (cf. Jer. 18:5-6). Have I sinned against the bird house if I decide to use it for something else? If the machine turns out to be dangerous, am I a monster if I make certain it is kept away from ever causing any harm to anyone ever again? No.

In our creation it is God that formed the molecules and synaptic responses that form our physical bodies (Ps. 139:13-16). We are His creation—He can do with us as He pleases. God asked Judah, “can I not do to you as this potter?” (Jer. 18:6). Above all other creatures in this universe, He has blessed us by placing within us a spirit that is said to be in His image (Gen. 1:26-27)—we are from this point onward eternal creatures (Eccl. 3:11). That is a blessing! But it is a blessing that demands responsibility. The nature and demands of God are such that all creatures that bear His likeness must conform to His law. For those who fail in this (which is to say all who are morally accountable in age and ability) He has made provision for this failure by the atonement of Christ. What is God to do with those of His creation whom He has made eternal who remain in rebellion to His authority and refuse His regulation? Since He is not a subject of His own law, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of His own authority we cannot even compare any action He takes to punish wrong with committing wrong—remember the executioner is not a murderer. Confiscation is not theft. Those who reject the gospel of Christ establish themselves as a type of eternally dangerous machine that must be forever put where it can never harm the subjects of God’s kingdom ever again—that is essentially what hell is. Is this cruel on God’s part? No, it is His right as Creator and the transcendent authority over His creation.

Reference : http://focusmagazine.org/does-god-violate-his-own-laws.php

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Very nice, we'll understand better when we realise that these laws are for things created. Just as we dont follow the operational manual of our inventions!

Oluwaseytiano:
I remember as a child the story of Noah being the only good man in a world full of evil, being laughed at while his family worked ceaselessly on the ark and warning the world of the impending doom at his spare time. It never occurred to me that in the unknown BC, there would be no TV or internet or radio to pass across his message. And even if he somehow managed to, how would those who lived on the other side of the world have made the journey? Or did the whole world consist of a few hundreds in a community?

Something like that. The flood was before the great dispersion; the fact that one man, after the flood, could mobilise the World to build a tower shows that the population then was rather sparse and huddled up in a part of the earth.

rexben:
Hmmm! My sheep hear my voice,the voice of a stranger they won't follow. I am not cherry picking. Jesus said if you CONTINUE IN MY TEACHINGS. He never said i will speak through someone later. He said i will send the Holy Spirit.

Jesus also said, neither pray I for these alone but for them that will believe THROUGH THEIR(APOSTLES) WORD John 17:20!

It is a personal thing. No one will teach His neighbor that know ye the Lord,for the law will be written in their heart. They will be taught by God not by Paul. I can claim i saw Jesus and i can perform miracles. Paul,epistles are not from the Holy Spirit. Pls get it

Now pls correct Jesus here:

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
John 21:17

AmunRaOlodumare:
Everything you say is ok. I even mentioned earlier Matthew 15:24 where Jesus basically says that he came only for Jewish people. You have the right to your own interpretations of what Jesus said and what Christianity means to you.

But Jesus also said He came for the World in John 3:16? The reference to Israel first is because they are the biological descendants of Abraham!

Everything we know about Jesus comes from what humans, early and later Christians, wrote about him. So you and I can't claim to know historical Jesus more than any of the past people. Even them, those who wrote things in the bible and other early christian works (Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, James, Gospel of Mark, Paul, etc), didn't have full knowledge of the historical Jesus.

Here is Luke's prologue:

3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luke 1:3
This renders that statement of yours as strictly a personal opinion.

People who wrote in the Bible and other early Christians works, wrote what was important to them and their christian communities at the time of their writings. What they wrote was influenced by what they knew about Jesus and their current social situation. After the disappearance and end of influence of the first christian church called the Jerusalem Church. Different branches of Christianity started to develop away from the Jerusalem Church and its Jewish roots. For example, IIRC Mark's gospel seems closer to its Jewish roots while John the least closer iirc. It's influenced by the political situation of their christian communities when "Mark" and "John" wrote their gospels. John's christian community at the time must have faced harsh criticism and opposition from Jewish people in the roman empire practicing Judaism. Paul on the other hand was more concerned in making Christianity as something acceptable to the Romans authority (respecting the law, a slave must obey its master, etc). At the time, Romans view Christians just as another Jewish sect. Every writers in the Bible and other early christian works were influenced by the current situation of their community.

Was Jesus doing same when He said ," If any man compel the to go a mile, go with him two" or "give unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" etc?

After the fall of the Jerusalem Church (which was led by the brother of Jesus, James). The first Christian Church. There was many different branches of Christianity. Different communities. Maybe the Ethiopian Church or the Protestants or the Catholics (with a large influence of paul) or the Gnostics have a message closer to Jesus's message or not. Clearly Jesus didn't write directly anything in the Bible. It doesn't really manner. What is important is what Christianity has become and what it means to you. Personally, since I'm not a christian or followers of any Abrahamic religions I see Christianity as a very influential religions (especially because of the Roman empire in Europe, and later, European colonialism) among many other equally interesting religions in the world (Buddhism, African religions, Chinese and Native Americans religions, Shinto, Islam, different branches of Christianity, Druidism, new religions, etc, etc). I guess I'm a bit more interested in African religions because I'm African.

Wish you wrote factually with verifiable references. These seem to be your own personal surmisings.

In term of history, it seems the 4 Gospels chosen by the Roman Church (and other gospels like the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, etc),

Wrong sir!

beside the influence of the christian community the writers were part of, were also influenced by a collection of Jesus saying called Q source. This Q source must have been similar to the Gospel of Thomas in its form. That is a collection of Jesus sayings. The Q source doesn't exist anymore.

Since Jesus didn't himself leave any writings or recorded messages, what is Christianity (a word Jesus didn't know), is what early Christians writers in the past and what Christians today make out of it.

Not true, consider Jude 3.

Empiree:
I dont think you get it yet. There is nothing like "non-trinitarian". It is a terminology used by later christians. It is your homework to find wh they are. They are actually on NL and they disagree with you. By 'non trinitarian' we mean those christians wh dont believe in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They exist here on NL. As for historical reference, Quran simply recognizes believers amongst Jesus disciples. Those who reject him are simply disbelievers. It's Christians denominations that categorized those terms

Alright name one of such disciples?

And I think i skipped where you asked me to quote ayah of Quran in reference to "clarification". That's your homework because you brought it up. Quote it then we take it from there.



where did i make statement @underlined?. Those who say Jesus is God or son of God or believe in trinity are all condemned by Quran. They commit major sins and there are textual references for them. And these sins are not like committing fornication or adultery (that are forgivable). These are sins that are NOT and cannot be forgiven.

Now, do you have any proof or sample of group of believers or disciples/followers of Christ before Muhammed that did not believe any of those highlighted?

If Allah commended them then not having any sample of such believers or disciples either in history/hadith with obvious proof that they existed between 33AD and 500AD etc calls for questioning. Why not call in your ustadh who may just have an idea?

Empiree:
Since all prophets and messangers came from same One God, Allah, Quran is referring to a Book (revelation), not "book of revelation" given to Jesus son of Mary. It is called Injeel. And those who follow Jesus claimed they have the book as well as you claimed too. You claimed you believe in the same Jesus(p). After doing our research, we found out that what you called the Bible attributed to Jesus is actually about him because you have many writers, known and unknown. Since that's all you have, we can only deduce from it what is in harmony with Islam. We believe 100% that Jesus brought nothing but one message that other prophets and messangers before him brought and it is the same message Muhammad(p) brought which Lailaha ilaAllah i:e There is no deities other than Allah. But the Bible says something else even though it contain of shahada as well. Christian also believe differently from the bible. This become major theological differences


I should ask you why you also have OT?. When i said you concealed his words, let me give you example of that. Is Jesus God? You would say 'yes'. If I ask you how, you would give me bunch of mixed up verses that Jesus did not utter to proof your point. But if I ask rexben if Jesus is God?, he would say no because according to him, Jesus did not make such claim which is very correct and in harmony with Islam. So if both of you claim to read the same Book, why do you have major differences in theology?.

If I ask you is Jesus son of God?. You would say 'yes'. If I ask you how, you would come up with complicated notion which Jesus never approved of. Which means you conceal his true message.



[size=14pt]We are not neccessarily concerned about non-trinitarian becuase they themselves believe in gravious sin like Jesus is son of God. We are only concerned about those who were with Jesus and believed in him and his true message.[/size] Quran says:


"And when Jesus sensed their faithlessness, he said, ‘Who will be my helpers towards Allah?’ The Disciples said, ‘We will be helpers of Allah. We have faith in Allah, and bear witness that we are muslims.'’ S. 3:52

"And when I inspired the Disciples, [saying], ‘Have faith in Me and My apostle,’ they said, ‘We have faith. Bear witness that we are muslims.'' S. 5:111

Underlined, what that Bible version they so preserved . And no Allah did not commend those who tampered with scripture. That's opinion.

Now as regards the highlighted, who were those people? Can you give names or historical reference?

Besides, since you said this:

Therefore, it makes perfect sense for Quran to commend them for holding up the truth. Hence, they are candidates of heaven. They weren't Christians of trinity as prevalent today etc.

Were those people commended by Allah even if they believed Jesus was the Son of God but did not believe in the Trinity? If no, can you give me a proof, name etc of people who saw Jesus as no more than a prophet (thus denying His Deity/Sonship) between the period 33AD-500AD who Allah was commending as candidates of Heaven?

Smartoscope007:
Did yOu think christian is a religion? give me 2reasons why it is................. they will never give you one....... ASK THEM THESE QUESTION, THEY WILL NEVER GIVE U AN ANSWER...... (1)Christians is there any prOve or an evidence in bible that you must go to church..

Read the book of Acts and make Hebrews 10:25 your keynote address. The meetings today is replica of the ones you find in the Gospels where Jesus presided.

(2) christians why are you calling jesus "lord" is there any evidence 4 that or jesus himself said so

Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet
John 13:13,14

(3) christians you're celebrating five days "good friday, easther sunday,easther monday, valantine's day, christmas day,& sabath day" is there any prove or evidence for that also to be continue...

Sweeping generalisation this!

rexben:
Hmmm. Pls do check my new post,SCRIPTURES ARE SIGNPOSTS. You will get to know why. Thanks

Here is another personal opinion sans a shred of scriptural evidence!

Empiree:
It is a waste of time to try to twist anything here. Extant Bible, whatever truth left in it that is in harmony with Quran is what Jesus(p) thought and muslims believe. The verses I quoted mentioned "Book" not Bible. You people chose to call it Bible.

Then why would Allah refer you to a book that wont be there at present? And since that passage referred to Book and not Bible why then did you quote it in application to the Bible?

Hey buddy, dont get it twisted at all. Quran is speaking of the earlier people who followed Jesus' teachings. It says that some amongst them hide true message of Jesus. Quran recognizes some people amongst the people of the book of the time who are upon tahweed which Jesus brought. Therefore, it makes perfect sense for Quran to commend them for holding up the truth. Hence, they are candidates of heaven. They weren't Christians of trinity as prevalent today etc. We can apply it today actually where Christians use OT where it soothes them. They do not preach lots of certain verses from OT to church goers today. That's concealment.

That's NOT concealment! Is the whole OT not in their Bibles? Besides, Jesus ministered in the NT hence I wonder your claim that they concealed His words. And who are these 'true, non-trinitarian christian' people the Quran commends? Sabellanists? Or Gnostics? Or Arians?etc these are sects that fit your description. Besides it means Allah was fiercely against the Vaudois and other custodians who preserved every word of the Syrian Bible handed down to them with their very lives. Why? The Bible they so preserved clearly agrees with the Trinity!
But Allah commends the people who history clearly reveals tampered with the Word!

As for seeking clarification, we have explained this many times. The verse has nothing to do with asking you for guidance. It is speaking of historical event. It is not advising Muslims to seek the right religion, who Jesus was from Christians and Jews. Definitely not.

would you mind quoting that passage here?

Can you tell us those sects at that time before Quran was revealed?. The sects thing was not obvious. It was rather confusion after Jesus had gone. Majority of his (jesus) people simply rejected him in his lifetime.

Since the book embraces both the OT and NT, we had Pharisees, Sadduccees, Essenes, Nicolaitans, Sabellians, Judaisers, Gnostic Philosophers,John Baptist's followers etc and the faithfuls (eg Zachariah, Simon, Anna, and many others who held on to the Word recognising the tenor and the letter) all these were from the late BC to early AD!
They all except the last had varying doctrines.

Besides, if you really are a disciple, you wont cherrypick: the Spirit reminded the disciples of all that Jesus said but did not lead them into all Truth hence you accept the Gospel that pertains to the former and reject the Epistles that pertain to the latter!
In other words Jesus was right regarding one but wrong regarding the other hence you reject it!

rexben:
Illustration
I once read that the publishing house(Zondervan publishers) that published NIV bible also published one occultic or devilish book(the satanic bible). Should we now say that because it published an occultic book(the satanic bible),NIV bible is occultic or satanic,knowing fully well that is just only a publishing house(Zondervan publishers) that can publish any damn book?

A publisher is not always the author so this analogy misses it.

Luke wrote Luke and Acts, John wrote John and also 1,2,3 John and revelation. Mark wrote Mark(the testimony of Peter),Peter wrote 1,2 Peter.
As i will always say,the gospels are clear accounts of Jesus's life only. I believe in the book of Luke not because Luke wrote it but because it contains the words of Jesus(accounts of Jesus life) same goes to other gospels.

Interesting! So, did Jesus do the writing?

I don't believe in revelation because it contradicts Jesus's teachings in the gospels .

Can I have samples of how Acts, 1,2,3 John Colossians etc contradict Jesus' teachings? And how do you recognise those deeper things the Spirit reveals? You claim to be a disciple of Jesus but reject the Ministry of older disciples than yourself! It seems you are rebelling against Him Who you claim to follow because you reject their teachings and their words (inspired) when Jesus clearly said this:

20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also
John 15:20

Test spirits. I don't know about that but i remember Jesus saying
4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. 5 They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him, because they do not recognize the stranger's voice."
John 10:4-5
His sheep will hear only His voice and no other voices not even the voice of those that claim that they saw Him
He also said
26 When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father - the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father - he will testify about me, 27 and you also will testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.
John 15:26-27.
The Holy Spirit will testify of Jesus and take of Jesus and give it unto. How can this same Holy Spirit contradicts Jesus in epistles and revelations.

What contradictions? Bro, this case of yours is that of conceitedness!!! You reject the ministry of older disciples even claiming they contradict the Lord. Now the first audience of Jesus when He said the Spirit will reveal the things which He could not say then, were the disciples. Do you imply that none of them, but you, enjoyed that ministry since you claim it does not reflect in their writings?

Talking about Paul,he is something elsewhere. Paul is a false apostle and also a stranger.
4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. 5 They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him, because they do not recognize the stranger's voice."
John 10:4-5.
Paul never knew Jesus,and does not want to know Him. He laid more emphasis on Jesus's death and resurrection rather His life because he didn't know him. He had opportunity to learn from Peter and James but he did not.

Now by this statement your conceitedness howls! So, all the apostles could not recognise a false apostle! How did Peter discern the error in Simon the sorcerer? When a believer claims to know better than all the first set of Apostles put together what you have is conceitedness redefined!

The Holy men Peter was referring to was the Prophets(contextual reading),he was not referring to Paul and others.

But you appear to close your eyes to the role of the same Inspirer in Acts 15!

Empiree:
The dude is confused But do I blame him? No. You know why?. I have proved it before using Quran, why christian doctrines will always differ. Quran said so in Sura 5:14




"And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience), and Allah will inform them of what they used to do".



^
Covenant talking about in this verse is the belief in Muhammad(Quran) and Jesus(Injeel). Because you rejected Quran, Allah says that you (Christians) will never concord on the same theology till Last Day. Isn't Quran correct?. I am going to add the brother, rexben in my list of another lone "christian" who believes in parts of the Book(Bible) but reject other parts. Matter of fact Quran speaks of that as well in Sura Baqarah (2:85)




"...............Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do."




Thats a clear warning and admonishment for you rexben. You will NEVER see any Muslims to reject part of Quran. Rejection of any verse of Quran take you outside te fold of Islam. Islam makes sense right?

But muslims claim that the Book mentioned there is not the Bible! Why the reverse in opinion here?


And why is it that the Quran has no certain position on the people of the Book? In one part it claims they hold on to a 'damnable'(by islamic standards) teaching, in another place it claims they are candidates for heaven yet else where it says muslims are to seek clarifications from them, then some NL muslims claim the Book referred to is elusive! Which do you choose?!

Besides, the existence of sects predates the Quran, has always been there in the Inter-testament periods down to the AD early centuries (centuries before Muhammed came on the scene) but the Church universal is preserved hence those quotes appear to be a rather historical, not prophetical statement.

rexben:
Yes sir

By what criteria do you accept Gospel according to Luke but reject Acts of the Apostles written by the same author? Or by which do you accept Gospel according to John and reject 1,2,3 John and Revelations by the same author? Or by what do you accept Mark and jettison 1 & 2 Peter?Your claims suggest the apostles were inspired only when they wrote the Gospels and this you neither can prove nor could it ever be so!

And since Jesus said there are many things which the Spirit will teach but whish He would not say it means they were not to be found in any of the Gospels.
Besides, if we claim the Spirit came to make us islands of knowledge, by what do we test the spirits?
In John 15, Jesus specifically gave a criteria that NO ONE can ever fulfil but the 12 viz being with Him in His earthly ministry from the beginning! And He linked their witness with that which will be revealed by the Spirit!
15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,eventhe Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
15:27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
John 15:26,27

rexben:
Firstly,the reason why the gospels was recorded and documented was because of Matthew 28:20. Jesus said teach all that I HAVE COMMANDED,TAUGHT,SHEW YOU. So that was why the life of Jesus was recorded.
Peter was the only one that recommended Paul. Peter was actually intimidated by Paul. You know Paul was an instinctive writer and preacher,he was also educated. Pls do check want Paul meant when He said the scriptures are inspired by God

So was Peter the only one at the Council in Acts 15?
And where did you get that from? Afterall you dont accept the Epistles!
Peter described inspiration thus,''...holy men of God spake as they were moved of the Holy Ghost''
Sometimes what was said was historical, or for the present or the future.

Let's stay with Scripture there are no ranks nor division of labour in the Godhead. Hence GOD was fully involved in The Incarnation of Christ, and is fully involved in our salvation! To establish ranks is to shift perilously toward Gnosticism (the sort that Paul sought to refute when he wrote Epistle to the Colossians by Inspiration).

Any reference to the Father being greater than the Son etc is usually against the backdrop, and within the context of His incarnation and the purpose thereof.

Ordinarily, the use of Father and Son was clearly understood to mean equality:

[size=14pt]18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God
John 5:18
[/size]

(It was this Equality that He gave up temporarily in His Incarnation as Phil 2:6 shows.)


Now they realised Christ used the Father-Son reference with a different/distinct connotation because they did not level the same accusation against themselves when they said thus:


Ye do the deeds of your father.

Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God
John 8:41



IT IS A ONENESS THAT WAS SEPARATED ONCE: WHEN JESUS BORE OUR SINS ON THE CROSS. (This was the real purpose of the agony in Gethesmane)
The Word was God and was with the Father In the Beginning; and the Word became Flesh. The Spirit came upon the Word after He became Flesh and thus was Indwelt by the Father Who did The Works but By The Son being made Flesh in the Power of the Spirit! Now, The Father Indwelt The Son Who came Not in His Own Name but in The Name of The Father! And The Son testified that He cast out devils by the Spirit! All through, the Son's Divinity NEVER featured! Why? He came shorn of ALL His Distinctiveness and manifested ALL that the Father was pleased to manifest,of Himself, by Him hence the saying,"I can do nothing of Myself". Did the Father live His Throne then? NO! After the baptism of Jesus and on the mount of transfiguration, The Father spoke from Heaven(He is Omnipresent).

Jusmudi:
1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.
3. The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat
heresies.
4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
5. The soul which recommend itself to me by the recitation of the rosary shall not perish.
6. Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries, shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not die by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
10. The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
15. Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.
In addition, the person has a special entrustment of themselves to Mary for their salvation.

Pls, who said these words?

rexben:
I love your comments,they are accurate. The truth still remains that the bible is not the word of God. You can attest to it that many people spoke even demons,devil,humans out of lusts and pleasures of life,prophets spoke etc. Why do we call it the word of God? Are you calling this people words the word of God. God is not the one speaking when e demon is speaking etc. I am not a muslim,i a disciple of Jesus that believes on His word. John 8:31-32

So do i assume you also reject Revelations?

rexben:
I love your comments,they are accurate. The truth still remains that the bible is not the word of God. You can attest to it that many people spoke even demons,devil,humans out of lusts and pleasures of life,prophets spoke etc. I am not a muslim,i a disciple of Jesus that believes on His word. John 8:31-32

In the Bible, you have, among others, portions of history, records and direct quotes of men etc all these were included by the Spirit's inspiration for a purpose.

rexben:
Jesus said the Holy Spirit not a man called Paul. Did you know why everyone that is born again has the Holy Spirit? It is because it is written"they will be taught by God","no one will have to tell His neighbor to know the Lord,because the law will be written in their heart.

Paul was not the only apostle. How about the others? Do you reject their writings? And did Jesus not say that there will be those that will believe on Him through their (apostle's) words? And did not these apostles attest and verify Paul's ministry to the gentiles as being from The Lord Himself?
Pls address these questions.

So you can see that Paul should not teach you,the Holy Spirit should teach you

Here you contradict He Whom you claim to follow:

20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
matthew 28:20