₦airaland Forum

5solas:
This post is pitiable to say the least. Why don't you just argue that there is no such thing as God's choice.

It's okay.

5solas:
Don't miss the point! The point is, to whom is the verse below addressed to?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Why don't you attend to the simple verses I quoted? You requested for them didn't you? Give your views on them and let's move on to yours.

i will explain using Revelations 17:14,'... those with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful' considering this in the light of the parable in Luke 14:16-24, it is clear that the call is to all, he who responds joins the camp of the chosen; it's not some kind of arrangement that subtly sidelines our free moral agency! And even after that, Revelations talks of faithful after we have responded to the call and become one of the chosen.

5solas:
Completely false.


It is at least safe to say that before the fall, God had made a provision to save some persons.
If you pay heed to scripture you will understand that He calls them His elects.

You sound as though God planned/predetermined the fall and made provision to save some. As regards that which you claim is false, does it therefore mean that all God gives to those who are saved are after-thoughts because of the fall? Does redemption not mean a restoration (and in this case continuation of that which was delayed by the fall and could only have been stalled if adam had taken from the Tree of Life after the fall)? Beginning,to you, only retains its normal meaning when you want to support your position but it changes when it's clearly used to show that God did not get the 'idea' of Sonship through Christ because man fell, but it was His Purpose from the Beginning and though man fell, He immediately prevented man from missing out eternally.

And just as Adam had his choice to enter therein but fell, we all today have a choice, to enter therein by faith or not!

An2elect2:
Did i just read, " We decide if we'll be among the
chosen or not" hahahahahahahahhhaha common!

Scholar8200 you still have not gotten it because you still think this whole thing is about man. God has a purpose and everything before Him is working in line with it. Nothing, no man can thwart God's divine will.

Maybe you should look at this hard truth

[b] 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come,
and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this ; but when Rebecca also had
conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but of
him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the
younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I
hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with
God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I
will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom
I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this
same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might
shew my power in thee, and that my name might be
declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it ,
Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same
lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory
on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared
unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only,
but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people; and her beloved, which
was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it
was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall
they be called the children of the living God.[/b]

Rom 9. There is no getting away from this!

An2elect2:
Did i just read, " We decide if we'll be among the
chosen or not" hahahahahahahahhhaha common!

Scholar8200 you still have not gotten it because you still think this whole thing is about man. God has a purpose and everything before Him is working in line with it. Nothing, no man can thwart God's divine will.

Maybe you should look at this hard truth

[b] 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come,
and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this ; but when Rebecca also had
conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but of
him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the
younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I
hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with
God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I
will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom
I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this
same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might
shew my power in thee, and that my name might be
declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it ,
Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same
lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory
on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared
unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only,
but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people; and her beloved, which
was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it
was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall
they be called the children of the living God.[/b]

Rom 9. There is no getting away from this!

If I had quoted this, you would be quick to say it is out of context and it is because vs 1 - 5 shows the chapter concerned Israel not the gentiles! Let me ask, since God's Eternal purpose was before the fall, if Adam had not fell, would it have been applicable to a 'chosen' set or all Adam's descendants? If all, did the fall change God's eternal purpose for man? My misunderstood statement actually meant that now, like Adam, we choose if we'll partake of that purpose by our reaction to the Gospel.

5solas:
You don't seem to understand that verse! It is not addressed to ALL. It is addressed to believers! To those in faith! That their believing was of Him.

But He died for all didnt He? And the command to preach the Gospel is that all men may hear and have the opportunity to believe or reject His Provision, isnt it? From your logic, the whosoever in John 3:16 is not sincere sins it has nothing to do with their choice, this is wrong. How about John 1:12?

oluFELAxy:
Thanks. God bless.

We thank God.

5solas:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Still explaining that the blessings of the Gospel was not God's response to man's fall but God's plan which He still executed though man fell. Adam after his creation was not meant to die (sin that brought death had not come); however, Adam was to be allowed to choose what state he would live forever. The fact that God did not forbid eating from the Tree of life proves this. In fact God warned Adam just as HE said to Israel," behold I set before you life and death...choose life that you... may live".

It was God's original purpose:
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Meaning apart from sharing His Image and Likeness and having dominion, God had other higher plans for man but man's free will was not to be dispensed with hence there was a time lag between the fulfilment and even after he fell,God's love found a way to avoid our missing His best because Adam fell. When I talk of other plans, remember Adam was never described as an heir of God or one to be seated together with Him! These were God's plan: that man will be adopted sons and joint heirs with Jesus His Only Begotten.

I see it this way, after creating everything, GOD Who Is Essentially Love (and Love always gives) desired a creature that He could continually give of His Inexhaustible Fullness to. That is why God's Fullness only identifies with our faith: expression of our emptiness and nothingness.

5solas:
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Eph. 1
1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


2 Thessalonians 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Gal. 4: 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

This does not mean they were marked for salvation from the beginning! We decide if we'll be among the chosen or not;

The highlighted were God's original plan for Adam and his before the fall! These were no knee jerk reactions of an angry God whose creatures were enticed. That Adam fell did not mean God's plan for man had been permanently truncated! The only means this would have been achieved is if satan had succeeded in making them take of the Tree of Life then, that original plan would have been forever forfeited. The delay of the state in which Adam was to live forever shows that God still had plans for him and that is one of the reasons why the severe but beneficial action of chasing him out of the garden had to be taken Genesis 3:22.




Else the two quotes below needs be explained:

1 Timothy 1:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

and
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

sportsmaster:
i clearly understand your point bro,
did you know that Christ took your place on the Cross.?
He went to hell for you.?
All the punishment for Sin was poured on Jesus.
This is why John said "Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away all the Sin of the world"
he also said "Jesus is the propritation of the Sins of the whole world"
The wrath of God was poured on Jesus Christ.
So that you and I can live in Christ.
This is the exact reason why Paul majored on the Redemptive realities in Christ and Identification with Christ.

I believe these! In fact when we believe, the Holy Spirit moves in and makes it real in our lives! When we by faith set our minds and affections on these, we walk in Heaven's light! But I must be rooted and grounded and be not moved away from this faith if I will make it in the end. Jesus said so," that which you have already hold fast... hold fast that no man take your crown"

sportsmaster:
How do you explain ?
Rom8:1:-
when i get home tonite i will use e-sword and i will post over 100 translations of this Verse.

I cant type it all. Its Too much.
I will be the original greek manuscript too.
One translation says
"there is now no punishment for Sin for those that are in Christ Jesus"

Because his past (Roman 3:25) sins have been dealt with; and being rooted and grounded in the faith of Christ, in Whom sin has no power, he is enabled to walk even as Christ walked (blamelessness of heart and life)1 John 2:6.

All this will hold as long as he reckons himself dead unto the power of sin hence he does not yield himself to the motions of sin rather, he yields himself to righteousness unto holiness realising that:
... if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that be to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness (right doing and right standing with God)? Roman 6:16.

When there is an occasional/inadvertent slip, he mourns and by faith realises that he has an Advocate with the Father, but he also realises that steps must be taken to avert continual recurrence lest he holds the truth in unrighteousness Romans 1:18b or become a reprobate 2 Corinth 13:5.

Kindly include the translations for Romans 8:4,13.

sportsmaster:
you take too many things,vs23 clearly answers it.

Establishing that there is a condition of believing and continuing therein with the necessary fruits of our faith being manifested. Glad we've settled this.

another failed observation.
What paul emphasized all through his Epistles was the redemptive realities in Christ for us.Facts of Identification with Christ.
You will see Phrases like "IN CHRIST"'"in whom,by whom,through him," "FOR US"

Acts 20:21 was what I had in mind. Indeed, he presented these blessed realities but always ended his Epistles showing how our being in Christ manifests by an upright and blameless life. Hold fast to such faith to the end and you are safe.

Nope he dint,it was talking about the Man that knows that Christ is the truth and yet choose to reject him,just like Atheists.

Consider," the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified". He was sanctified meaning he was once saved and set apart
just as the one Peter said had initially escaped the corruptions in the world but turned back thereto.

I encourage the fact that good Christian conduct and moral values must be preached ,so that Christ can be seen in our lives.
We do good works so that men will see us and Glorify God.
Good works can never earn you or guarantee your standing with God.it ison the basis of the finished work of Christ.

The finished work of Christ is the basis of our faith; the faith that works by love and holiness of life!

5solas:
Excellent question! Please consider it in the light of the fact that those in Christ are said to have been chosen.

Which passage are you alluding to here?

sportsmaster:
according to exodus3:5
Peter,and every writer of the Epistles admonishes Believers to be Holy in Conduct and manner of living so that Christ may be Seen in Us.Matt5:16,
Rom12:2,col3,eph3,4 and eph5.he was talking about the Christian conduct.you can term it "Personal Holiness"

Notice the fact that these are instructions not Laws[b],Not fufilling any of these or all of these cannot take you to hell.[/b]

Yes because if Christ is not seen in us, we are reprobates 2 Corinth 13:5 (none of such gets to Heaven). They are evidences of the grace we received through faith; their absence means our faith is self-deception, no matter what is affirmed.

I can point out several instructions from the Epistles and the Four Gospels that many of Us (believers) do not take heed to.but that does not mean we will end in hell.
E.g2thess3:1-3:you are to pray for ministers of the Gospel in danger.
eph6:18:- Pray for all Saints
and many others like that,the list is endless.

You can only speak for yourself here bro.

holiness is from the greek word "haggios" which means sacred,separate unto a Higher Divinity.
Check several dictionaries and lexicons.

When God calls us Holy,it means we are separate unto Him,we are sacred before God.

The ground in exodus 3:5 was called Holy because it was separate unto the Lord.

Key Word study Bible agrees with your greek rendition but points out that the context of 1 Peter 1:16 uses the word to mean:, 'morally pure, upright,blameless in heart and life'. Fully agreeing with:
1 Peter 1:16 ....be holy in all your conduct and manner of living

Bro, my point is the need to be balanced; Paul speaks of the goodness and severity of God, you sound like Redemption took away the latter which is not true. Israel too made the same mistake,
'we have Abraham to our father' they thought the Everlasting oath made to Abraham meant they could not be plucked out and laid aside but the contrary is right before our eyes!

johnydon22:
And this just buttresses my point, your speculations are just based on your assumptions of what you feel should be in order to reconcile it, no more need me saying on this...

Speculations! kindly confirm those and their usage in the Bible. (I quoted from the KJV)

sportsmaster:
its like an INFINITE LOOP in C++.
No matter how many times you prove the Wrong,they will come up with several babblings and stuffs like that.
It is a never ending arguement.

But the fire at the tip of the arrow that should overthrow the faith of some would have been quenched!

sportsmaster:
I can see the word "IF" everywhere in this Post.

That's because it is in the Bible!
Romans 11:20-23
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 for [size=14pt]if[/size] God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, [size=14pt]if[/size] thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

But did you read that God's Gift is Unconditional,No man does anything to merit the Gift of God.

All we do to receive a Promise is to believe.
God's promises came without conditions,it was unconditional.

Oh yes there is a condition of faith and repentance else why did Paul emphasize both? And after we have believed there is the condition of continuance in Him through faith the fruit of which is holiness of life and growth therein!

Those Israelites could not enter because of UNBELIEF
They clearly doubted God promise.read Exodus or Deuteronomy 19-22.
Rejecting God's promise and Sinful conducts are two different things,

And those who made it in were thrust out when they failed to continue in the faith. They went back to captivity.

Another account hebrews 10:26-29.
You have taken this text out of contect several times,
Reading the preceeding and suceeding texts explains,
it explains rejection/despising of the work of Christ,the writer of Hebrews compared the consequences of rejecting/despising the Law Of Moses and that of Christ.

Yes but notice that the person thus mentioned was once sanctified and knew the Spirit as the Spirit of grace!

Eph1 clearly explains that you have Forgiveness of Sins in Christ,it is not until you ask of it,you already have it.

Then why must we preach since people have it already? Then why did Paul emphasize repentance and faith in Christ? Indeed, the provision is for the whole world, but did everybody bidden to the supper taste of it? NO. And after others came in, was not somebody thrust out for lack of the right garment?

sportsmaster:
did you bother to find out what righteousness and holiness means.

None of them is a function of conduct.
See Exodus 3:5:- the first time the word "Holy" was used.
It was used for a ground.(study deeper),did you bother to find out why the ground was called HOLY.

Secondly Righteousness,Read entire Romans again.
Righteousness came by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's see this:
1 Peter 1:14-16
[Live] as children of obedience [to God]; do not conform yourselves to the evil desires [that governed you] in your former ignorance [when you did not know the requirements of the Gospel].
15 But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living.
16 For it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holy.
This is the holiness referred to in Scripture.
Also see:
1 John 2:6
Whoever says he abides in Him ought [as [d]a personal debt] to walk and conduct himself in the same way in which He walked and conducted Himself
Or why will Paul, in endeavouring to challenge his converts write this to them if they did not see it themselves:
1 Thessalonians 2:10
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how[b] holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves[/b] among you that believe:

Not by struggling or trying or thinking to get salvation/reconciliation thereby; BUT as an outward testimony of an inward faith and transformation by the Power of the Spirit (grace defined); a proof of the faith which once manifested we are enjoined to continue in if we'll be Eternally secure.

johnydon22:
We don't have Mary's genealogy too, the only place Mary's parents are mentioned are in the Oral traditions of the church that makes her parents Annah and Joachim.

The Luke genealogy was not in anyway referring to Mary's genealogy, you are only assuming of which someone can also assume the matthew version is about Mary too....

following your analogy one can as well assume that Jacob as mentioned in Matthew was Mary's father and is used in Joseph's genealogy because he is Joseph's father in-law..

Matthew: Jacob begat Joseph (biological links clearly established hence he cannot be Mary's father) ; Luke: Joseph was the son of Heli (could be legal or biological)

It doesn't work that way. . . it is either you show where the verses mentioned to be listing Mary's linage or you agree you only assuming it to be because the verses still remains clear.. "Heli father of joseph" "Jacob father of joseph" [/b]

Luke: Joseph was the son of Heli (could be legal or biological). But since his father (Jacob) who begot him was from Solomon son of David; and Heli was from Nathan son of David, then his links to Heli cannot also be biological.
Note that Luke was not an unlearned fisherman neither was his addressee, Theophilus, a fisherman but they were what you will call elites today hence the practices of those days which were not hidden was not a strange thing to be included.

sportsmaster:
Never argue with these Guys,i told you several times

I am not arguing. Remember Acts 15:1,2, Jude 3 shows the need to earnestly contend for the faith especially when the need arises lest the simple come, read and feel our silence means we are actually advocates of "close your eyes and open your mouth" faith; thus their faith gets overthrown (2 Timothy 2:18)

sportsmaster:
read the Psalms of David,david also talked abt the blessedness of this New covenant,he talked about how that Sin will not be imputed,but righteousness will be imputed to your account.

many folks do not understand the book of revelations,
Many things in that book was figurative,to study revelations,you need to have a clear understanding of the Four Gospels,and the Epistles.

Remember Paul himself said,Where Sin did abound,Grace did Much more Abound.
Grace has dominion over Sin,
No amount of Sin will exhaust Grace.

You know what bro(scholar8200),
read Romans and Hebrews again.

Define Grace from the context of your post (herein quoted).

Sin enslaved to unrighteousness; Grace empowers for righteousness and holiness! Romans 6:21,22
Believest thou this?

sportsmaster:
In essence what you are saying indirectly that the Work of Christ in complete.

Specify what gives you this impression from my post.

Because if Christ paid for your Sins?
1Why would go to hell if Christ paid for your Sins?

If we are faithful to the end and we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast, overcoming to the end, Heaven is sure. But if we fail to do so, remember there are not two Heavens; one for he that overcomes, the other for he that does not overcomes but still ,'believed'.

2the prophet Jeremiah said ahead of time that "In this New Covenant,God will not take account of Your Sins and iniquities,what he will impute against you is righteousness"
Heb8:6-the end,Jeremiah 33,Rom4,Rom5, 2cor3:4-18.Rom 8,otherwise can you say that God lied in nis Promises.

God cannot lie; my position is we still need to be steadfast in faith and holiness of life if these things will continually be ours! Did God not promise Israel the land? Did they not fail to enter by their unbelief? did that mean they were not Abraham's biological seed? Why then did Paul remind the Corinthians of these when he wrote to them if they did not stand the same risk of losing out of God's covenant?

2cor1:19-22 clearly explains that all the Promises of God were fufilled in Christ.

YES! And we stand by faith and are commanded to take heed lest we fall. (Not because if we fell it means we were never standing but because," we are made partakers of Christ (in Whom the promises are fulfilled) IF we hold fast...steadfast to the end."

all those scriptures you quoted,i Urge to get your facts right and study deeper.
When Jesus said he came to fufil the law,what he meant is that he came to fufil the demands of the law,because with the law,the whole world was found guilty.
Jesus is the propritation of the Sins of the whole world.
Jesus is the Lamb of the God that takes away all the Sin of the world,
all you need to do receive all God has done for you in Christ is just to believe and thats all.

Vouchsafe me some of your exegesis as per the highlighted!
But remember Paul said these by the Inspiration of the Spirit:
Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, [size=13pt]repentance[/size] toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And even after we have done the above, we are still warned to:
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5

johnydon22:
I have never read a genealogy were Jacob is referred to as the Son of Laban (his wife's father) and his ancestry traced from there.

Instead of son of Isaac. . . . This is merely your assumptions because there is no way that verse in luke mentioned Heli as Mary's father, you are just assuming bros...its was clear Joseph the son of Heli

Can you produce Rebecca's genealogy (Just as we have Mary's)? That is the acid-test! Why will the genealogy of Jacob be traced from Isaac and Laban will be mentioned?! There is no need since the tribe being mentioned is the father's!

Matthew picks up Joseph's descent from Solomon, son of David; Luke (writing to an elite who may be curious) picks up Mary's descent from Nathan,son of David and mentions Joseph being a legal son of Mary's father by virtue of marriage, according to genealogical practices. (You hardly find names of Jewish women in genealogies except for women who initially were not Jews).

menesheh:
Is this a scam bait

No it isn't.

@ sportsmaster, consider this:

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and[b] I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelations 3:4,5

Since this message was sent to a church (not gathering of sinners) does this not reveal that:
1. Eternal security is conditioned on the fact that after we have believed, we, depending on the Spirit, give all diligence to walk in righteousness and holiness.
2. Eternal security is only guaranteed if we overcome and hold fast to the end.
3. Failure to ensure 1 & 2 will mean that our names will be removed from the Book of life as only those who overcome are guaranteed security.
4. Redemption serves to transform man, not God and Exodus 32:33 & Exodus 34:6-7 are not laws to be abolished but the unchanging nature of an Unchanging God revealed.
Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Since 4 is true, I submit that our Eternal security is dependent on ,"if we hold the beginning of our faith/confidence steadfast unto the end!

@babs787, as per your reply to the first question, I agree that every system of beliefs has its own sects of extremists. However, can we say those who kill a person that insults Mohammed are extremists too?

Op, kindly answer the following:

1. Define the term Inspiration.
2. Succinctly differentiate between Inspiration and Dictation.

If life is not a bed of roses and vicissitudes are a fact of life, I wonder what might be wrong for the minister to place this reality before the couple from the start to prepare their minds. Should we also remove till death do you part?! God never said there will be no fire but He promised to be with us when it comes. In fact, unlike today, new converts were exhorted thus:
Acts 14:22
confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
(Tribulation=persecution)

This unwillingness to face reality by people is an asset for today's deceivers and false prophets who know the people will flock if you assure them tons of goodies and a life that will be a bed of roses. Now when you give people this impression and time and chance proves you wrong, they become skeptics! Others are forced to live a fake life that will be maintained by crime and dishonesty if need be.

Op, indeed God's purposes are Eternal; however is believing (man's part in appropriating God's provision) an act of the will or a spiritual reflex over which we have no control such that once we believe there exists no possibility of loosing the faith?

Op, indeed God does not change; however is believing an act of the will or a spiritual reflex over which we have no control such that once we believe there exists no possibility of loosing the faith ?

Remember that Salvation is in a Person not an experience.

An2elect2:
@bolded. Not true dear. The problem some of us have is that we read the doctrine of insecurity into various passages and if we approach most of them without preconceived ideas, we would see that they have nothing to do with "salvation can be lost".

And of course they ones you cited are interpreted out of context.

Firstly, it will be dishonest of us to take the few obscure portions of the scripture to overthrow the plain. It is a fact that the nature of a believer's salvation is eternal as it has been said clearly in the bible. There are just too many scriptures backing this fact.

And when interpreting, we interpret the obscure portions in the light of those that are crystal clear! Doing the opposite makes you a false teacher! Okay, am not calling you a false teacher yet...no not yet or maybe never. But we have to understand the implication of teaching wrongly!

To interpret any of the passages you mentioned as saying that a born again child of God can lose his
salvation flies in the face of hundreds of clear passages of Scripture.

When the context of a Bible passage is plainly directed to the subject of salvation, there is
never a question about the security of the believer.

2 PETER 2:20-22. Though this passage is often used to prove that eternal security is not true, it actually says nothing about losing ones salvation. The context is false teachers who promote damnable heresies and deny the Lord (v. 1). It should be obvious that it is not saved men who are the focus on this passage, but hypocrites and deceivers . Any interpretation which says these are saved men who lose their salvation flies in the face of the context. The fact that “the latter end is worse with them than the beginning” and “it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness” does not imply that they were saved and now are lost. They were dogs and pigs who were unchanged (v. 22) . The fact that they return to their wickedness proves that they were never regenerate. When the context is taken into account, there really is no problem in this passage in regard to the doctrine of eternal security.


[b] HEBREWS 10:26-29. The willful sin in verse 26 refers not to sin in general, but to one particular sin which is described in the rest of the passage . The Bible plainly teaches us that Christians do sin after they are saved (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1-2). There is no sinless perfection in the Christian life. Our perfection and righteousness is in Jesus Christ positionally (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21). The sin for which there is no forgiveness is the sin of “counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.”

This means to deny that salvation is by Christ’s blood and grace alone. In the immediate context to which the book of Hebrews was addressed, it refers to the
Jews who professed confidence in Christ; but, because of pressure and persecution, returned to their dead religion and thus gave up confidence in Christ. False religion, both then and now, attempts either to replace Christ’s salvation with a manmade system, or to add to Christ’s salvation a manmade system. Catholicism is an example of the latter. It preaches Christ, but it intermingles its own sacraments and priesthood and sainthood with the grace of Christ. This is a false gospel
which robs Christ of His glory as the sole Saviour and Mediator. If Christ is not Saviour wholly and exclusively, He is not Saviour at all. If grace is intermingled in
any sense with works, the Gospel is perverted, and there is no salvation in a perverted gospel (Rom. 11:6; Gal. 1:6-9).[/b]

I hope this helps.

Thanks for your effort and civility. Pls I am not trying to win an argument nor display knowledge;

Salvation is obtained through a Divine-human partnership; Jesus has fulfilled the Divine but we need to repent and believe with the heart before we can be born of the Spirit.
Else we wont need to preach since after God's part, everybody is saved! As to the Divine part, it is Eternal because God cannot change; but the call to watch arises because man can change not because he was not truly saved but because he remains a free moral agent!


I ,however, will still like to draw your attention to 2 Peter 2 that shows the people in question had escaped the pollutions of the world through Christ:they had been saved!

]2 Peter 2:20,21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them

Note that Peter uses the same term for the saints he was writing to
2 Peter 1:4
whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Besides, Peter rounds up the epistle by saying:

2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness


Just as it was God's Eternal purpose to give Israel the land (even backed by the promise to Abraham!.) but they did not get it because they did not continue in the faith, all God's promises in the New Covenant are Eternal but we enjoy them on the basis of our faith (this one is not eternal hence the exhortation to HOLD FAST).

Yes the Holy Spirit seals us till the day of redemption however we are warned not to grieve or quench the Spirit.

Barnabaseloka:
To those who believe in 'once saved ever saved', I need answers to these questions:
1. Was Paul writing to unbelievers or to believers in Gal 5:19-21?
21. Envy, murders and drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who PRACTICE (do, engage in) such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
2. Will believers, such as Ananias and Sapphira, Dermas, Judas Iscariot, etc, who do not hold on to their faith and die going to possess the kingdom of God?
3. Was Jesus serious in warning his followers about hellfire, telling them to take away anything that causes them to sin?
4. What disqualification was Paul talking about in 1 Corinth 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified?

Thank you bro.
I would at least have expected the op who say these are out-of-context, give us his correct ,within context explanations!

It's unfortunate that op who claims to have 'grace' cannot even manifest something as basic as patience/longsuffering in understanding other's views but a quick resort to name calling!

Even the biological descendants of Abraham were denied the land when they did not continue in the faith, will it be logical to say that that means they were never Abraham's biological descendants?!