₦airaland Forum

GeneralDae:
I know about Marcion, no need to Google him, and Marcion was partly right not totally.

I really dont have any problem with you wanting to follow whoever you choose to follow. But what i am trying to lay before you is the information and facts and history so you can at least make an informed decision.
I still maintain that there was never any need for the jesus character. It is God who created us like this. He did not make any mistake to warrant him sending "his son" as a sin sacrifice to undo his fork up..That is just plain stupiid. He created us with the ability and capacity to make choices. He knows we can make the wrong ones. He just gave us laws to make good ones so that we will all live in peace within ourselves and with our neigbour.

End of it all, when we die, our spirit returns to God and our body back to the earth..

GeneralDae:
Can you give me proof the Torah is special?

What a balanced diet is to our physical bodies is what the Torah is to our spiritual lives...the proof is in the eating..

GeneralDae:
And how do you know the bolded? what is your proof for that?

Real history...study..

GeneralDae:
You are arguing subjectively, can't you see that?

Nah....not at all, not when every woke human holds similar view.

GeneralDae:
So that is what you have now? subjective arguements? The Torah is from God simply because it's the most beautiful master piece you've come across? Why don't you realize that for many the new testament books are the most interesting and beautiful? For Others the Quran is the greatest and no one can write a book like it and for many it's the Hindu scriptures that revers several gods?

But none comes close....the Hindu might be the second because the indians understands that life is a journey..and knows what God is and is not.

The battle/wars/jihad is within..

GeneralDae:
There is nothing so special or different about the laws of Moses. They are very much like ancient middle eastern laws. Ancient middle Eastern laws were both moral and barbaric, some more than others.
The sumerians who existed way before the Moses character already had moral laws forbidding killing, stealing, and the likes. God's inspiration was available to every culture not just to Moses. Besides, in my opinion the laws of Moses that requires stoning people who don't keep sabbath or burning the promiscuous daughters of Levite Priests are outdated and cannot come from thesame God of Jesus.

Now we are getting somewhere....exactely why the Romans invented the jesus character. Because they felt the God of the jews cant be the real God...

Google "Marcion".

Kobojunkie:
YHWH's Old Covenant laws apply ONLY to those who are of the blood of Jacob , and the foreigners living in the land of Canaan. So anyone who does not meet that criteria is thoroughly deceived in much the same way that Christians who live according to the Old Covenant laws are.

My friend Gods laws are universal...There is only one God. You should be grateful the jews wrote it down. He gave all mankind. It is what we igbos call "omenani"...

GeneralDae:
So you are saying the creators of Moses knew God better?

From all indication...The Torah is the most interesting and beautiful master peice i have come accross. If you really understand the layers of meaning. You will easily know jesus is an idol..and immidiately flee from him..

Dtruthspeaker:
Aha! , first this above, then this below?

You cant reconsile both?...you are really caught in the matrix..

Blue pill or red pill??

GeneralDae:
Then the creators did a good job, a better job than the creators of Moses actually.

Then you really dont know what God is and is not...i guess we should start there..

GeneralDae:
But Jesus has done nothing wrong, instead he has made the laws better by his teachings.

If he actually existed....but the creators put those words in his mouth..

GeneralDae:
Whatever the case, the fact still remains that your Yaweh commanded his people to practice sacrifice in a temple for whatever reason and it was about deliverance of sin ( unintentional or intentional). I have told you severally that the method prescribed by Jesus for the forgiveness of sins is that we repent and forgive others who trespass against us.

The creators of the jesus character put those words in jesus's mouth.. Jesus never existed in real life...

He is not the promised messiah, neither is he a prophet.

GeneralDae:
Then why do you still need the entire law? what is in the law that christ has not given us?

Why invent jesus?.
The creators of the jesus figure know those laws, they put those words in jesus mouth. A writter can make his character say anything..
God has already given mankind his laws thousands of years before the supposed time of jesus...

People where already keeping the laws..and God was finding them righteous..like cyrus, nebochadnezzer, and the prophets and kings..

Dtruthspeaker:
And all the teachings of Christ are the Instructions of The Law, if you doubt raise up any Teaching of The Lord and See if I would not raise out its corresponding Law!

There are 613 mitvahs...i guess you are already keeping some of them without even knowing...

Each for the number of bones in our body...

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-613-mitzvot-commandments

God is the universe , the universe is God...you are part of God, God is part of you...

Brag about yourself. You are an enternal being....you are an immortal soul living in a vessel made of dust...

Dtruthspeaker:
You can find The Truth if you want, which is why I Cut Down Anything and All those things which are not True in Natural Living!

Those things are there for a purpose....discover it...

Dtruthspeaker:
You still do not know that so many things in this world have mind controlled you No 1) being your Constitutions, 2) Your Schools 3) your means of livelihood

Which is why the Bible clearly said that the world has deceived all the peoples of the earth.

You remember one of our old nursery school rhyme those times..

Row row row your boat gently down the stream. Merrily merrily merrily...life is but a DREAM


This life is a dream, the real life starts when we join our ancestors...(the spirit world)

Wake up Dtruthspeaker..You are the one who has been lead astray..

Dtruthspeaker:
You still do not know that so many things in this world have mind controlled you No 1)being your Constitutions, 2) Your Schools 3) your means of livelihood

But in those, i define the terms...but christianity..nah...

I laugh each time..

Religion is a scam no doubt...it comes from the root word meaning mind control. Religions like christianity and islam where created with the sole purpose of social engineering, power and money...

It is just for the poor massess..

It is well stated..

McSquishi:
The reason you quoted “the letter kills, the spirit gives life” was to show me there is no need for them and it contradicts God’s commandments


No one is following anyone but Yahweh and the apostles do nothing but constantly point to doing just that? Have you read?

1 Corinthians 3:5-7

5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow

7So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow


Are you aware even in the Old Testament that God chose men to lead and to deliver his message? so the apostles are doing nothing new by continuing to do that.

Those commandments you are referring to are now are now written in our hearts/minds, as Ezekiel 36:26 alludes to:

26...I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws

When God says he will put his spirit in us it means something other than life here because we all have the spirit of Yahweh that gives us breath and that was not enough to encourage the following of decrees and laws... it is referring to the Holy Spirit


That is the new covenant discussed in Jeremiah 31:31-34

...which I previously asked you if the old covenant was such a perfect law as you stated then why in the Old Testament did God say the day will come when he will make a new covenant with us unlike the one he made before?

��Is JESUS//Yeshua/Yahusha the NEW COVENANT foretold in Jeremiah 31?��

Let’s unpack it, shall we?���

�Jeremiah was a prophet whose message was against false piety and insincere worship�. He derided the Jews of his time for failure to trust in G-D. He spoke out against social injustice. This was in a time when many Jews actually were not observing the sabbath, were worshipping other gods, and were giving lip service to the Torah��. Not all, but many.
So after chapter upon chapter of threatening the Jews with what will happen if they do not change their ways, Jeremiah 31 is a message of renewal and hope. Let’s look at what he says is going to happen. ��

Remember, a chapter is an idea, a description of a series of close-knit events, all taking place at a given time. Not thousands of years apart, but within a few years or months of one another.

In Jeremiah 31, G-D says He loves Israel with an everlasting love - in other words��, He has not and will not ever stop loving Israel or abandon them��. They're all going to go up to the mountain and proclaim G-D to the nations. (has this happened yet? The everlasting love has. Have they all gone up to the mountain to proclaim G-D to the nations? Perhaps, if it is meant metaphorically.)

And then G-D says He will bring them from where they have been scattered - from the north country, the other parts of the world, sick and lame, old and young, etc. Did this happen when Jesus/Yeshua/Yahusha was alive or died? � � Hardly. When Jesus/Yeshua/Yahusha was alive, Jews were scattered all over the world�, and within a few decades of his death, almost all Jews remaining in Israel were forced to leave�. But G-D says that when this does happen when He brings the Jews in, they will walk a straight path of Torah☺️��, they will follow the ways of the commandments.

Jeremiah goes on to say that G-D will RANSOM Israel - this is the “salvation” that Christians and Messianics always point to��, but in Hebrew, and all throughout the Tanakh, ransom/salvation means literally to physically pull us out of danger. The jews will be ransomed from EXILE. Did G-D or Jesus/Yeshua/Yahusha ransom them from exile in the first century?��No. The Romans exiled the Jewish people in the first century.����
What will happen when they are ransomed? The language of Jeremiah is gorgeous�: “And they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow unto the goodness of the L-RD, to the corn, and to the wine, and to the oil, and to the young of the flock and of the herd; and their soul shall be as a watered garden, and they shall not pine any more at all.” (Did this happen in the first century?�� No. They wept as they were exiled, some sold into slavery, by Rome�).
And what else will happen? People will sing, and dance��‍♀️, turning grieving into joy�‍♀️, and the priests will be “satiated with fatness”, meaning the sacrificial system will be resumed, and they will have a lot to do and to eat. Did this happen in the first century?��� No, it did not. Within decades of Jesus/Yeshua/Yahusha’s death, the temple and the sacrificial system were destroyed, and people starved.����
So G-D says look, the time is coming when all bad things will turn good��. I will watch over my people��, and I will regenerate them��. AND, and this is important, at this time, everyone will be responsible for their own sins ���������. Children will not suffer because of their parents’ sins����, but everyone will bear his or her own���. Wait, WHAT? But don’t Christians say that Jesus/Yeshua/Yahusha takes on everyone’s sins and bears them for us?��� Then this passage cannot be about Jesus/Yeshua/Yahusha �‍♀️��‍♂️. Simply cannot. God. Does. Not. Lie.��‍♀️
Now we get to the new covenant. G-D is going to make a new covenant, a covenant like the old one except for its format. Now it is going to become ingrained in their hearts ❤️���. What is He talking about? Remember above, I told you what Jeremiah’s mission was�‍♀️. To warn the People of Israel about their false worship, their giving lip service only to the Torah��. Well NOW, they will take on the Torah as more than a document. They will know it, study it, live it. Sincerely and honestly.
Ok, that’s not Jesus?Yahusha/Yeshua�‍♀️��‍♂️�‍♀️��‍♂️. The new covenant is definitely NOT Jesus/Yeshua/Yahusha���‍♀. And there’s more: Because what G-D says at this point is that once the NEW COVENANT is in place, and they are living, breathing, loving the Torah, following the commandments, THEN HE IS GOING TO FORGIVE THEIR SINS AND THEIR SINS WILL BE NO MORE. So once a person repents and assumes responsibility for the commandments, G-D forgives him. Each of us. Responsible for ourselves. No Jesus���‍♀. No requirement of faith, but of action. The action of living the Torah�.

So we’ve established the following:
None of the events in Jeremiah 31 relating to the coming of the New Covenant happened in Jesus/Yahusha/Yeshua's time or in the decades thereafter. Chapter 31 is not about Jesus/Yahusha/Yeshua.���‍♀���‍♀
In the New Covenant, the nation of Israel will return to G-D with sincerity and follow Torah�‍♀️. We will each be responsible for our own actions�. And when we return to Eloh-m, He will forgive our sins�������. That is true. It has always been true. There is no requirement of faith in anyone in order for this to happen. The requirement is of action�, of changing behavior�. Not believing in Jesus, not accepting any messiah. But of changing the way we live.�

(Special thanks to Sara Finegan for her orig awaking post��)

GeneralDae:
Ok so answer me, if you were a priest in those days and your only daughter at once played the LovePeddler, would you burn her?
Also tell me what is so special about the ten commandments or Nohahide laws that Jesus or others ( you call man made) have not given us?

If Gods laws says so....why not...why invent the jesus. If God already gave us petfect laws?

GeneralDae:
Whether unintentional or intentional, sin is sin. You are not usually consistent when you defend the old testament.

The need to burn a lamb for one's sin came from a fabricated concept that the Jewish service of sacrifices to Eloh-m in the Holy Temple brought them forgiveness from sin. This is false, and it is a distortion of the true meaning of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes, blood sacrifices of kosher livestock are commanded by Eloh-m, but exclusively for the Jewish people -- and we're not Jewish. And that commandment applies only when the Jewish Holy Temple is built and functioning in its assigned place in Jerusalem. During times when the Holy Temple is temporarily destroyed, the Jewish service of the blood sacrifices is temporarily suspended, and PRAYERS takes their place, as instructed to the Jews by Eloh-m through Hoshea 14:3 – “We will render the PRAYER OF OUR LIPS IN PLACE OF the sacrifice of bulls.”
The Leviticus chapters 1-3 have NOTHING TO DO WITH “sin” or “guilt” offerings either. Those chapters only speak about “burnt” offerings, which are BROUGHT AS ''WORSHIP OFFERINGS'' to Eloh-m. That also happens to be the only category of sacrifices that Eloh-m accepts from Non-Jews as a form of worship, and for them as well, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SINS AND FORGIVENESS. Kindly see Genesis 8:20, that Noah (a righteous Non-Jew) sacrificed kosher animals in worship to Eloh-m, and he was a righteous man who had no sins, as testified by the Hebrew Scriptures in Genesis 6:9.
Leviticus chapter 4 speaks about the so-called “sin” offering as it is translated in English, but the Hebrew term “hatas” (mistranslated as a generic “sin”) means only an *unintentional* (accidental) sin (see Lev. 4:2), for which the Jewish person is not liable to any punishment from G-d or from a Jewish court on earth, because it happened by accident!
The various categories of so-called “guilt” offerings are also almost exclusively for *unintentional* (accidental) sins (Lev. 4:22,27; 5:15,17,18), for which the Jewish person is not liable to any punishment from a Jewish court on earth or from Eloh-m. Those offerings apply if a Jew doesn’t even know if he sinned accidentally, but he became aware that maybe he sinned accidentally.
Liability to punishment by Eloh-m only applies for sins that are committed deliberately (the literal translation of the Hebrew term is “treacherously”). There are no sacrifices (neither “burnt” offerings, “sin” offerings or “guilt” offerings) prescribed to obtain G-d’s forgiveness for a sin that was committed deliberately. What is required is PERSONAL SINCERE PRAYERS OF CONFESSION AND REPENTANCE to the One Eloh-m alone. See Numbers 5:6 (where there is no mention of a need for any blood sacrifice because it only talks about a deliberate sin, for which a person is liable for punishment by Eloh-m).
Please carefully study Psalm 51, which is King David’s prayer of confession and repentance for a deliberate error, for which Eloh-m does NOT specify NOR WANTany blood sacrifices. Rather, Eloh-m only looks for the sinner’s PERSONAL REPENTANCE (see Psalms 51:18,19).

GeneralDae:
Whether unintentional or intentional, sin is sin. You are not usually consistent when you defend the old testament.

Your thought and his thought are not the same..
I have always....

Has God at any time asked for a human sacrifice as a sin sacrifice ? Never.
He only approved animal sacrifice for unintentional sins.

GeneralDae:
Hmm, its okay. At least you are honest and now I know you are ready to completely go back to Mosaic Law, but for me I am okay with the golden rule and the teachings of christ. I don't think I need the laws of Moses to serve God.

Hmmm..so you are regecting Gods divine laws for man made laws, hmm who do you think is the judge?.

God laws are the 10 commandments...the rest are just customs and traditions of the jews. They where given to only the jews.

But as we are all children of Noah(contextually speaking) we have the noahide laws for the rest of man kind. They are 7 of them...

DappaD:
OP doesn’t believe that a human could actually “atone” for the sins of other humans but he will gladly accept that the blood of bulls and goats(lower life forms) will serve a similar purpose?

How did you figure that out from the initial write up?

Animal sacrifice where for unintentional sins. For others you must sincerely confess and forsake...and do charity..


The animal has to be a she goat or lamb, without blemish. It must be killed and burnt...the sacrifice must be performed by a preist..NOT ROMAN SOLDIERS..

I got this from a guy who has been following me

I'm still following. It was hard to disagree with anything you have been saying. I grew up in a Christian church, being taught about the Messiah since my earliest memories. He has been the most important thing in my heart for all those years. Your threads and comments are making sense to me intellectually but are hugely difficult emotionally. To lose the messiah makes me feel like I'm losing a part of my own heart. But as you say here, circumcising the heart is cutting away all that makes us defiled and separates us from our creator. I guess the process of heart circumcision is bound to hurt. Worshiping the messiah, praying to him, even ending our prayers to the Father in his name, things we, as former Christians have all done --- idolatry? I NEVER thought of it that way before. And, the whole idea of eternal life in the new testament seems tied to the messiah. YHWH does state over and over in his word that He alone is our Savior...So He is the only one who saves and provides eternal life, not the messiah? That seems to be what His word says when we are looking only at the Tanakh and NOT at the new testament...A lot to think and pray about.


What do you guys think?

tafiya:
So they can't charter a plane for our national team again

For 10 minutes journey by boat...??

GeneralDae:
ok so if I show you people closer than Julian to christianity and yet accepts it, would you accept them? Also he never says Jesus did not exist, he even called Christians the Gallileans to mock them because the religon began with fishermen of Galilee who were illiterate, so he believes in that part of the story. What he doesn't believe is the miracles and the Christians' claim to special morality. He says the morality of the Galilleans are not new.

Also according to scholars, the miracles and some of the stories are most likely formulated, this does not mean there wasn't a Gallilean called Jesus but there are invented fables about him. It's different from saying there wasn't a Jesus at all.

There are always invented fables about ancient heroes, it's nothing new and historians know this, so they apply other criterias to determine if there was a Jesus. I have listed those criterias in my reply to musicwriter.

Your arguement is different, you are saying there was no Jesus at all. We are not talking about the miracles and stories, but whether there was an original Jesus and fishermen Gallilean disciples.

Yes, i hold the opinion that there was no jesus at all. The gospels where all wriiten in Greek.
Come to think of it, the jews where all looking forward to the messiah coming to save them from their enemies, ending oppression of any kind and ushering peace. And all of a sudden somebody is presenting a story about a man who was cruxified , as the messiah...
One thing i am 1000% sure is that the gospels was not written by jews. We can confidently rule them out. They dont have the idea of demi god as part of judaism. It is a Greek/Roman idea.
The idea of miracles is not how the messiah will be recognised. Infact the jews where warned to not follow anyone who does magic.

So there are just many contradiction with the old testament. I think it is just the Greeks/Romans making a mockery about the jewish God. That was why they added it at the back of the jewish Tanakh..

GeneralDae:
is Julian arguing that Jesus did not exist? I don't see that there. However this is not proof of anything.

He calls the story a fabrication....Julian is closer to the beginning of christianity than us. He was a roman emperior. So he must have had a lot of evidence to conclude as such..

I wont pass that up..