₦airaland Forum

Maximus69:
I thought we've passed this stage in our chat!

I guess so.. Just reiterating..

Blabbermouth:
Come on, you are smarter than this... After Joshua, were there other prophets? Yes! Many, many, many, many, many, many, prophets....
Amidst these seas of Prophet, the scripture was only referring to Just 1!
If it were Joshua, then there won't be need for a prophet after him.
Context + Truth is key...

LOL.. How funny.. Was that one supposed to be a demi God? Or a sacrifice for sin?

Maximus69:
Please let me know those that you've been able to convince to agree with you on this, their group name, the commandments they are obeying and how their so called obedience has BENEFITTED them even if it's just within them at least they're the adherents!

I don't aim to convince anybody.. But to ecucate.. And draw their attention to what they might have missed.

Blabbermouth:
Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"
From these scripture, it is also meet that the Chosen one MUST be born of a Virgin.

Also, from other Scriptures that have been cited already from some contributors in this post,
"The Messiah must come from the Line of King David"...
Now, here is the first question;
If the scripture is true and cannot be broken, how can a man be born of a Virgin and also at the same time come from the bloodline of King David through his Father (as sonmvayina said, Genealogy is from fatherhood)?"

LOL.. You are smarter than that, start from verse 1 of chapter 7..the sign was for king Ahaz, the woman in question was Isaiah wife.. Isaiah impregnated her.. The son was an assurance for king Ahaz that the two kings plotting to kill him will not succeed because God was with him..

Blabbermouth:
Moses the mediator of the old testament, for prophecy and through hearsay from God himself said to the children of Israel, " I (God) will raise up unto you a prophet from among you, of your brothers, like unto me, I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto you all that I command him and it is him you will listen[b] to.
It shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." - Deut 18:15, 18
This was the first instance in the old testament where the Christ/Messiah was plainly prophesies of....
The first and one of the principal criteria was for the Ha Maschiach to be "A Prophet"!
Down the Scriptures (of Deut 18), it says
"21. If you say in your heart, how shall we know the word which the LORD have not spoken?
22. When a prophet speaks in my name, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously: you shall not be afraid of him."
That verse gave us a reliable yardstick for checking if a prophet really is of/from God or not.

Summary: The Chosen one/Messiah must be a Prophet.
On the Keys...

Come on, you are smarter than that.. Who was Moses addressing.. Was it not people in front of him.. After he left, God raised Joshua for them..

Context is key..

The origin of the idea of christianNT's 'personal messiah' was heightened when the Maccabean family lost political reign, a dynasty more favored by the nation, in comparison with Herodians.

'National Messiah' is the actual principle of the hebrews(as underlined in blue), NOT 'personal messiah'.

Messiah is a very exclusive Jewish affair only, regional, and localized, not international.

From Jewish encyclopedia

HISTORY/FACTS:

The origin of the idea of christianNT's 'personal messiah' was heightened when the Maccabean family lost political reign, a dynasty more favored by the nation, in comparison with Herodians.

'National Messiah' is the actual principle of the hebrews(as underlined in blue), NOT 'personal messiah'.

Messiah is a very exclusive Jewish affair only, regional, and localized, not international.

From Jewish encyclopedia

So if man is made of God's spirit + dust from the earth, what is Jesus coming to save!? He has not changed the nature of man, we still get to make choices.. We still need the laws to guide us.. If we make wrong choices and sin, God says.. If my people(we are all God's people) who are called by my name will humble themselves and confess their sins and forsake their evil ways, I will hear from heaven, forgive their sins and heal their land" 2nd chronicle7:14.
So there was no where God asked or demanded for a human sacrifice.. Why should he when one of his commandment was "thou shall not kill".

Maximus69:
Well do you have such peace now?

Yes oh.. I don't disrespect my parents I don't have sex with another man's wife, I don't steal, I don't bear false witness, I don't desire what is not mine.. I don't kill, I take Saturday off I don't go anywhere, I stay home with my wife and daughter watching Telemundo or any good programme....

So.. It is going smoothly..

I want us to agree on what man is and what God is.. "let us make man in our own image after our likeness, let them have dominion over....... The US in this passage has been a point of controversy for every one. But from my own observations it is the Christians that has interpreted it differently. That is the genesis of the errors in Christianity..

Let us (God the father +God the mother) create man.... Man is made of spirit +body.. God the father provided the spirit and God the mother provided the body.. The body is made of dust and the dust was gotten from the earth.. So it is so easy to infer that God was talking to the earth..

If we read further down the book of genesis it says.. "and the lord God fashioned man from the dust of the earth and blew into his nostrils and man became a living soul"..

Where do Christians see it differently, still overwhelms me..

The psalmist says in psam 104:29-31, send fort your spirit and they are created and replenish the earth, take it and they die and return back to dust. This physical body was created as an abode for God's spirit..it is a pity that man lost the chance for the spirit to remain indefinitely in him..cause of man's wickedness, hence God proclaimed"my spirit shall not dwell with man forever. "

God decreed death for man..
So from birth when the spirit is given and death when the spirit is taken, what do we do?
My answer: enjoy it.

Blabbermouth:
The above points I believe, are your criteria (as written in the Torah) which the Messiah that has been spoken of must meet up with, I will do with these...
Also, I will add more to it, as written to the old testament and see if the person of Jesus and His New testament is valid even under closer look and scrunity.

I am not a jew, it is their criteria... And Jesus did not fulfill any of them..

Blabbermouth:
I am not quoting the new testament to prove the new testament, no! We are strictly building our discussion on the old testament... However it will be paramount to cross check if what we both come to terms with (as regarding the old testament) is consistent with the new.

Fair enough..

Maximus69:
Please let me know those that you've been able to convince to agree with you on this, their group name, the commandments they are obeying and how their so called obedience has BENEFITTED them even if it's just within them at least they're the adherents!

The aim is peace.. Both within and without.. No more no less..

Blabbermouth:
Hey Sonmvayina, I really love this thread you created and the prospective purpose for it... Yea, I will like to engage you while rigidly staying put on the rail of the thread. Yeah, I buy your idea of coming from the old testament perspective but I should note you that I will (where necessary) cite scriptures in the new testament to show you that my points are consistent with the scriptures and the word of God.

That would be circular reasoning.. You can't quote from the new testament to prove the new testament. The purpose of this thread is to find out if Jesus was ever God's plan and the New testament was necessary..

Maximus69:
So who sent you to come chatting with people always on Nairaland?
Well it has to do with your inner sense, and if it's unable to unify thoughts then there is nothing like God involved. The is a supreme being and his ability to bring people together as a family is the only evidence of his godship.
We believe in him that's why we're working together as one, you and i can go our separate ways without having to agree on anything but if we can agree then someone, somewhere is binding us together (GOD).

We are part of the human race... We are all brothers and sisters..God only ask us to obey his commandments so that we can live happily together....

It is God who created us like this with the ability and capacity to make choices.. He won't kill you for behaving like a human being.. Most if what we call sin are abuse of our natural inclination as human being.. God endowed us with the urge to want sex, that why he gave us leviticus 18 to guide our sexual desires... Etc

Maximus69:
Your PERSONAL opinion!

Over 9,000,000 individuals (members of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES) from different races under the heavens are enjoying warm embrace from fellow believers in JESUS, they've formed a global family of peace loving worshipers and it's Jesus' teachings that made this possible!

They are wasting their time, nobody ask them to..

Maximus69:
If we know ourselves then why the killings as in who is killing who?

Death is not a tragedy in God's eyes, it is part of life.. It is a point in life..

Maximus69:
If you believe in God but you don't believe in Religion, then in what way do you expect to canvass others into making a solid agreement on the way forward?

Teach people to obey God's laws and customs..

It is the way, the truth and life.. Psalm 119 is a long love poem about God's laws..

Maximus69:
Whatever concept you are taught anywhere, let it be in your heart that the one who bears that title "GOD" has a purpose and that is to teach us how we can benefit ourselves! Isaiah 48:17-18

Note how Isaiah linked PEACE with BENEFITS derived from what we LEARN from GOD!
[b]
So there must be a GROUP that's TEACHING it's MEMBERS how to derive BENEFITS in their [/b]gathering. If you can't find such an arrangement then there is no use chatting over what your fellowman believes neither coming together for any reason whatsoever!

It is not about teaching. It Is about obeying God's laws to have a better and more fruitful human experience... Death simply means the spirt returning to God and the body back to earth.... Back to default settings. Ecclesiastics12:7

Just to make the time from birth to death, obey his laws and enjoy it..

That is why I keep saying Jesus is useless to both God and man.. A distraction..

Maximus69:
Hmmmmmmmm, spirits are higher intelligent beings, we can't see them unless they want us to and they do that by putting on materialised visible bodies.
These spirits dealt with physical beings so the stories are literal Sir!
We need to study the Bible thoroughly to know why spirit beings don't talk back when we are talking, but they're listening!
God is the one and only spirit to whom all glory and honour belongs, so he speaks to people but on purpose, as for angels they are not permitted to speak with people unless God grant them that permission, that's why people who speak with spirits must have had a covenant with them before the spirits can speak with mortal men.
But note that spirits who makes covenant with humans are doing so on their own, so they will be punished for jumping the protocols!

How come you are not going to God directly rather than reading the Bible... Don't you think it will be much better and we won't be having this conversation.. We would ask God directly..


Well, trust me.. God is a spirit.. And nobody can communicate with God the way we communicate with humans. The only way to communicate with God is through an oracle... Any other way is a waste of time..

God is the universal spirit, personified. We are in it and he is in us... What you call angels are just aspect of God. The Bible refers to them as the sons of God.. The yoruba refers to them as the Orishas.. Some people go through them to God, but God forbids it.. "do not have any other God before me"..

We have having this conversation because we are both human beings.. We can understand the language we are speaking.. Do you think you can have this king of communication with God?.. If not why do you think Bible stories are literal stories..

I think that is where you lost it..

God is not a man or a human being. Number 23:19.

Maximus69:
Jesus is angel Michael in the spirit realms, he is the perfect replacement for Adam.
There's nothing like TRINITY, God is one and only the grand Creator who has all the say.
Michael (Jesus) only participated in during the works of creation, this might sound preposterous but think of this: God created Adam and there were no like skyscrapers, bridges, electricity, cars, trains, aeroplane, internet and so on. Who created all of these? Well it's Adam's descendants who keeps on working to improve on the things they found on earth!
I remember my cousin's son who argued profusely when i told him that electricity is not natural but generated, of course the little boy felt it has always been there because Adam's imperfect descendants worked really hard to maintain and sustain electricity!
So when God's word tell us that Michael (Jesus) worked with God in the beginning to set all things both in heaven and on earth in place we need not doubt it! Genesis 1:26; Proverbs 8:22-34; John 1:1; Colossians 1:15-16
God's word referred to Michael (Jesus) as a god not because he is part of God in anyway but because he took part during creation, just as the man Moses played a vitat role in the deliverance of Israelites from Egypt, no wonder God said about Moses "I have made you like a God before Pharaoh" {Exodus 7:1} Moses supposed to be scared while standing before Pharaoh who happens to be the most powerful King of that time but NO Moses stood before Pharaoh like a GOD having authority over all the gods of Egypt including Pharaoh their King who was also viewed as a god on his own!
So Jesus (Michael) served as God just like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15-19} but he is no part of JEHOVAH the one and only TRUE God! Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 42:8

You said God is spirit, which I agree... So why do you think the Bible stories are literal?.. Have you spoken to a spirit before?..

TATIME:
Wow! I've missed a lot! love this and wish to follow the thread but please can i also join in the chat as in contribute? It's really interesting.

You can join, but please stay on discussion..

What or who is he?.. Do you subscribe to the trinity?

Maximus69:
Sir, the account by one of his followers named Luke stated that their rulers were fighting with everything within their reach to bury Jesus' story and erase him in their history! Act 4:18; 5:28

So Flavius Josephus whose story mentioned part of what happened regarding John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth never did so with the intention of establishing their historicity but somehow the truth about this two men was found in his story!

OK, let me oblige you.. Let us assume he was a real person.. Of what importance is his story to God or to man?

Maximus69:
Sir, the account by one of his followers named Luke stated that their rulers were fighting with everything within their reach to bury Jesus' story and erase him in their history! Act 4:18; 5:28

So Flavius Josephus whose story mentioned part of what happened regarding John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth never did so with the intention of establishing their historicity but somehow the truth about this two men was found in his story!

Josephus came too late, to be of any importance.. Philo of Alexander lived during that period.. What did he say about him... Zero.. Nothing at all..

Maximus69:
Hmmmmmmmm so there was no Jewish carpenter who lived in the first century in the name of Jesus from Nazareth?

Well i think the Jews themselves have something to say about this!

Flavius Josephus who lived during the time of Jesus Christ acknowledged that a man actually lived amongst the Jews who claimed he was the Christ, though not a Christian himself Flavius never denied the existence of Jesus of Nazareth!

Not at all Josephus NEVER made any mention of Jesus in any of his works at least 4 have come down to us.. The so called testimonion flavanium has been discovered to be a fraud..

Maximus69:
Both of us are saying what we were fed Sir.
Neither you nor myself lived in the first century to say whether Jesus was real or not, what we're both saying now is as we were told!

But I have read about the history of the first century from credible historians, all of them are silent about him.. Why..

Somebody that fed 5000+ people, don't you think that would be difficult to miss.

Maximus69:
The so called Jewish credible scholar of our time are fighting for their tradition not the truth!

So those who acknowledge the existence of Jesus and his miracles will be spoken of as infidels!

It's by carefully considering other events that happened down through the centuries that we can figure out facts!

OK, present them..

Or better still give me what you think are the messianic prophesies and when he fulfilled them.. You can start by telling me the Jewish idea of a Messiah from a credible Jewish scholar.. Or site.

Maximus69:
Well if you must know, the prophecies about the Messiah wasn't from just one Prophet, it ran through the Old Testament, meaning those hoping for such fulfilments shouldn't expect all to take place the same period, an intellectual would expect the fulfilment to run through a long period just as the prophecies kept coming from prophets that lived in different periods!

Jesus of Nazareth proved to be the Messiah but as we know from the history of the Israelites that this nation is a stiff-necked race, there has never been a time they wholeheartedly exercise faith in a true Prophet of God, even Moses who brought them out from under Egyptian bondage has serious issues with them.
So their crooked and greedy religious leaders of the first century can't bury the truth about Jesus Christ!
You must have had a dealing with fanatic Jews, trust me they know how to discard everything about Jesus' life and ministry, but we don't need to be biased, if Jesus is not Hausa, Igbo or Yoruba, we must thoroughly scrutinize both side, i mean if we agree to study the Old Testament, we must consider the New Testament as well, both were written thousands of years ago. So since we're not present to talk with the writers, there is no reason to be biased or one sided!

©Jesus' foster father and biological mother were both from the linage of King David!
© During the first century when Jesus walked the earth, the Jews (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) were the inhabitants of Judea while Samaritans (the remaining ten tribes of Israel) occupied the northern kingdom of Samaria.
©The third Temple is no physical Temple but spiritual Temple, and this was erected when Jesus was resurrected, the will Jews crookedly debunk anything having to do with spirituality when they're against any Prophet, but ask them if their God sent Elijah who was taken up in a chariot of fire, then they'll start telling you how marvelous their God was.
©There will be worldwide PEACE when the Messiah begin his reign in earth, the churches of Christendom complicated the whole thing by saying Jesus is now ruling, whereas Jesus is only directing the affairs of his imperfect followers who are less than 9 Million today!
©There is LOVE, JOY and PEACE amongst Jehovah's Witnesses (Jesus' true followers) this must be so because JEHOVAH can't destroy the rest of mankind without giving them a sign, they must see the evidence of what Jesus (the Messiah) spoke about in the midst of those adhering to his teachings before JEHOVAH comes to wipe unbelievers all away!
©The Jews mentioned here aren't physical Jews anymore because the last set of Jews God took serious were the first century Christians who faithfully followed Jesus. After them, all those who joined the group back then were taken in as Jews by the God who is not partial.
© Today there is no part of the earth where you won't find Jehovah's Witnesses, this are the true worshipers of Jehovah today, that's why all what God said concerning his people in the end time is fulfilling amongst JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!

This is just what you have been fed with, I want you to prove he was a real person.. Or that he was the promised Messiah.. I want to see what people that saw him said about him. Not stories written centuries later.. There were historians and scholars leaving at the supposed time he lived, what did they say about him?.

How did he fulfill the messianic prophesies?. I gave the prophesies in my second post.. Show me how he fulfill them.. I don't need your opinion.. I want facts I can check out..