₦airaland Forum

Truthseeker10:
According to John 6:46, has the Holy Spirit seen the Father?

New King James Version
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

The context does not nclude the holy Spirit.

Truthseeker10:
So do you agree that Jesus is seperate from the God that no man has seen which is the father?

when he said no man has seen God, he is referring to the father. When he said no man has seen the father but the only begotten Son has declared him, there is a 'but' there. Meaning apart from christ revelation nobody has seen the father.

In John 6:46, is the seeing that Jesus talked about literal or figurative?

figuratively although also true literally.

Truthseeker10:
Ahhh....so the father(liquid) manifested In Jesus(steam) and people saw him according to john 14:9 and John 1:18 says that no one has seen God(water) at anytime? Is that not a contradiction?

words have context no man has seen God, is actually referring to the father.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

I believe when he said no man has seen God, he is not just saying to see visually which is true but to know him deeply.
But after the disciples has spent time with Jesus they now knew the father.

AntiChristian:

Samson carry Olosho after killing with holy spirit!

Nobody raped any 9 year old. The marriage of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam was with parental consent. It was even legit than your grandparent's and parent's copulation while dating and out of wedlock births! I don't know how you Holy spirit charged Christians like to lie using the word "rape" as if rape is done with parental consent.

Samson killed people with the Holy spirit and then robbed them.

Samson committed suicide with his enemies!

How is he miles ahead?

What religion did Samson practice?
Is the religion still existing?
What do we learn from Samson's story when he was just sleeping around with harlots and Delilah?

So because parents agree to give their daughter to be raped mean it is justified? By the way since Mohammad is almost equal to Allah in Islam who would refuse him?
Samson did not claim to be a prophet neither do jews claim he is the best amongst mankind but in Islam Mohammad who according to you is the best amongst mankind is a 🐖 pig who raped, robbed, lied and commit all manner of atrocities.
Samson is better than Mohammad even if he carried ashawo he didn't rape anybody. Shame on Mohammad and his allah.

AntiChristian:
In all ways!

Did samson rape a 9yrs old girl like Mohammad did? Did he rob caravans as Mohammad? Samson is miles ahead of Mohammad.

gohf:
you can't find Jesus is God from the apostles but you would have to go to the traditions that nachmonides fails to admit nor answer whenever I mention the gnostics.

The nicea decrea? You have failed using the Bible now to want to venture into another gray area, would you flee again once light is poured there?

you have no excuse.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

DaddyCoool:
Nachmonides, SIRTee15, Steep, gohf

FINAL WORD ON THIS TOPIC

It has been over 2 thousand years. Churches that worship Jesus Christ as God have gone from strength to strength. At Nicea the bishops prayed that God guide their deliberations and help them arrive at the right conclusion - these were people who knew the Bible more than any of us. We must assume that God was in those deliberations and therefore part of the conclusion they arrived at - which would explain why it has sustained and only gotten stronger.
Folks, these things have been debated ad infinitum by people much wiser, holier, and much more knowledgeable than us.
Bottom line:
Since YHWH has been intimately involved from beginning till now, unless we are ready to say that He doesn't exist, or no longer exists, or exists but is powerless, or exists but doesn't care, we must assume that what has triumphed is NOT something that is against His will.

While I may not readily point to the council at nicea, which of course re-emphasized on what has being the church tradition from the apostles themselves, even latest discovery has further nailed the coffin of the argument that the deity of Jesus was a nicea decree.
The word of God the Bible is sufficient proof, anyone not content with what has being written may never be convinced.

gohf:
but you believe God is 3 different persons whileas God doesn't not change, He is YHVH

take away pride from you and learn, repent and cry to God to have mercy on you. Pride goes before a fall.

gohf:
the reasoning is only from your own mind, which you have yet to completely submit to God.

Let's not speak of God being jealous for as simple as it may seem it may well be beyond you.

From whom do you think creation comes from, from where was it "bara" from.


I see it this way that those who see Jesus as equal to God fail to follow the example of Jesus in submission, for until to see Christ for who he is, without a veil, will the true spirit of submission be at work in you. That is the power of the gospel

confused one, God said he is a jealous God.

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Confused gohf,
Paul said the fulness of Godhood dwells in christ.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The Greek interlinear of Godhead in col 2:9 is theotetoes meaning deity or Godhood.
Jesus is literally God, same God with the father.
People have tried to correct you here but you continue in heresy.


Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

Nachmonides:
People like to associate God with threats more than love.

Even Christians, leave that brother alone.
He's zealous. Let him study more.

She is a false teacher and false prophet.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
I pray God brings her out of the darkness she is in.

gohf:
If I did not explain this clearly then let God the Father be displeased with me but if I have and you refused to listen then let God hold you to it.

You will not have an excuse when you are called to account the words you have written

The word of God says try every spirit, on the other God would hold you responsible for turning people away from the truth.

gohf:
If I did not explain this clearly then let God the Father be displeased with me but if I have and you refused to listen then let God hold you to it.

So tell me which other being is worthy of worship apart from God? If you are worshiping what is not God, you are an idolater. May God have mercy on you

You will not have an excuse when you are called to account the words you have written

May the Lord have mercy on you, so you are indirectly saying God made his angels idolaters, to worship someone who is not God?

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Guess what the father has commanded all men to honor the Son as the honor the father, guess what the honor given to the father is worship.
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

gohf:
you speak in error like your father the devil, because if you had known the truth of God's word who the lamb of God is, even without my quoting them merely reading revelations would answer your question.

you make zero sense.

But being blind isn't a reason for you to be proud and look down on others, after all let him that boast, boast that he knows the Lord. But for you to be both blind and deaf, is a shame

Did I not say God who is worshipped commanded them to worship Jesus, who is the lamb of God as revealed in the revelations of Jesus.

see the word salad you are writing down, show it to the person close to you if what you wrote makes sense.
So if the lamb of God who is Jesus is worshipped doesn't that make him God?

But you refuse to listen, no, why because you have been fed lies all your life but also because you are not a sheep of his pasture, if you were you would have known that what I have said is from from myself but from the Holy Spirit who testifies of Jesus the son of God who came in the flesh and rose in his body and is at the right hand of God who exalted him and crowned him with glory and power.

You deny the personhood of the holy Spirit yet claims he testify, can't you see how confused you are?

Yet you read and no life comes into you because you do not believe, so the death at work in doesn't leave you, it remains because you choose to believe a lie rather than the truth God revealed.

For God sent his son that those who believe may have life.

Even if I contradict myself by God's grace I will never contradict God nor His Son.

You are contradicting Jesus the Son of God who said he is one with the father and shared same glory with the father before the world began.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Paul clearly identified Jesus as God and saviour.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Surely the spirit that inspired these men and reveal to them is different from the spirit leading you.
You better ask God to forgive you and show you the truth.

gohf:
When I told you before did you understand?

I will repeat it JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD he is not God the Son or God.

If you can't accept what is revealed as the truth then you accept what is a lie.

Anyone who doesn't understand what I say is because they do not understand God's word, a bunch of bible verses you say, did you read them and study them. Did you invest your time and pray for the Holy Spirit to teach them to you.

The words Jesus gave they are spirit and they are life. Jesus said in John.8.31 - Jesus said to the people who believed in him, "You are truly my disciples if you keep obeying my teachings.
John.8.32 - And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."


If you reject what Jesus said, you are not his disciples and if you are not his disciples then you do not know the truth and if whatever you know is a lie how can you be set free?

So according to you Jesus christ is not God even though it is clearly written that Jesus is God?

You are the one that is rejecting the bible.
According to you God commanded angels to worship another being?

You are wallowing in deception, contradicting yourself all through.

The scripture says Noah took of every kind, the word kind is closest to the word family, so he didn't need to carry every animal just a two or seven of every family and against who said they must be adults? He probably would have taken young ones.

Those were angels that were already fallen.

btoks:
At least I can point to early church tradition and magisterium as evidenced throughout the centuries and within early councils. I gave you a seed form of veneration of Mary within the bible already.

can you point historically were the church where Mary was venerated? It shouldn't be hard give me evidence.
When did this church tradition start before or after the apostles?

Interesting you state deceased saints, when we see in Luke 20: 37 - 38 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him.” - Catholics believe this.

Are you saying the saints are not dead? If they are not dead who is christ coming to raise at his coming?
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In 1 cori 12:52 who did Paul call "the dead"?

It is clear you adhere to sola scriptura but this protestant doctrine was never taught by Paul and other apostles. All apostolic churches before the schism affirm veneration of saints.

There is no evidence that the early church during the apostles venerated saints, it was introduced after the death of the apostles.


The apostles and Jesus himself were very strict in following the scriptures, Jesus even said the scriptures cannot be broken,
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
The scripture takes preeminence above traditions, you cannot set aside scriptures by tradition, which Roman Catholicism does.

I don't quite get your point here - I asked how you determine the scripture but you state that we disagree with the Jews>>. I think you'd find that the the Jews opposed Jesus and his teachings, ultimately leading to crucifixion. Yes, we disagree with the Jews' views on Jesus but not the scripture (OT) already written. Jesus had authority, he gave authority to his apostles who in turn ordained bishops/ priests of the early church. These same guys canonised the books of the bible as we have it today.

So how do you know that Jesus is the christ if not through the old testament written by the jews, without the jews the old testament could have not be written, which means you won't know who Jesus is. Now using your own logic we should agree with the jews even though they contradict the scriptures they put together.

The Catholic Church does not go against the bible, all teachings are implicitly or explicitly found there. The bible does not contain every Christian practice. Would you say the following are false as we know some protestant churches don't believe these - 1. Consecrated bread and wine is the actual body and blood of Christ 2.God is a Trinity.
Another question for you - it is the year 320AD , what church would you have attended with your current sola scriptura views? Mind you, the following books were still disputed even at this stage - James, Jude, Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2,3 John, Revelations, shephard of Hermas etc; a common man would most likely have being unable to read; Bible books wouldn't have been bound together or as easily accessible as today.

I can say same with the jews because according to your own logic Roman Catholicism is unquestionable because they put the bible together, so following your own logic the jews are unquestionable because they wrote the old testament and put it together, can't you see the flaw in that line of thought.
Roman Catholicism contradicts scriptures in almost all doctrinal issues.

I don't need to show you any proof based on your own erroneous standard of sola scriptura. Within Church tradition and the Church magisterium veneration of saints is very clear. Veneration of saints is also implicit within the bible.

you have no proof to show only what has being fed to you without questioning. Roman Catholicism hate questioning, it is like a blasphemy, she is just like Islam.

Church fathers give an idea of what the church tradition is e.g. list of bishops, accepted teachings etc. Historically you had to be part of the one church founded by Jesus or you were considered a heretic. E.g, the Gnostics, Arians, Nestorians who used the same scriptures to give their novel interpretation of who Jesus was and other doctrines.

Are speaking of traditions that were handed down by the apostles? Gnosticsms, Arians, nestorians are heretics because the contradict scripture and the traditions handed down by the apostles and you know what so is veneration of Mary and the saints, and a host of false teachings of the Roman catholic church.

btoks:
The verse quoted does not say scripture alone, also it says all scripture is 'profitable' or useful as per other translations - it doesn't mean that is all that's needed. In fact you'll need to read the verse 14 for further insight:
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,

Paul and the other apostles never taught veneration of Mary, praying through Mary and deceased saints etc they werr ever part of the traditions handed over by the apostles, all these were added.

2ndly, what scripture was Paul referring to here? The pharisee, saducee or Essen OT canon? Surely even the NT hadn't been completed nor deemed scripture at this point. Could hindu scriptures count here?
How do you trust that the church got its determination of scripture right if you believe that it has passed down incorrect tradition?

same can be said of the jews, how could you disagree with them yet they gave you the scripture.
Those other scriptures were not written by the apostles and prophets,historically the books that were canon by the jews were the books of the law and the prophets. While the church followed the teachings of the prophets and apostles anything outside of these were not scriptures.

Sola scriptura was first introduced to Christianity 1500 years after the event by Martin Luther as part of his protestant reformation solas. A full 1100 years after the 431AD Theotokus declaration,but you posit that sola scriptura is the only authority on doctrine! It'll be interesting to see which church council attested to sola scriptura.

Sola scriptural does not mean church tradition is not neccesary provided such traditions truly came from the apostles not fraudulently added which the Roman catholic church is notorious of doing.
Heck the Roman church goes against the bible.

Re Mary- I wonder how you know what the apostles did/didn't teach, especially with no canonical writings from half the apostles.
Are you now going to ignore an entire half chapter on Mary's visit to Elizabeth, would you ignore the verse where Mary said "all generations will call me blessed" ,as no other Apostle taught this? As I stated befor, the bible was not put together as an instruction manual- it stands together with sacred tradition and the magesterium teaching of the church.
Please see the early church father writings from the 2nd century e.g irenaeus, justin martyr for further info. You may also find that there's a prayer to Mary dated to about 250AD

can you show me proof that the apostles venerated Mary, or prayed to Mary not church fathers. By the way you seem to take authority from church fathers, are their writings considered as scripture? Why? What is the difference between scripture and non scripture?

LordReed:
These are your own words:


How can you ever meet such an impossible standard when by your own admission it is impossible?

That is God's standard, sinless perfection because God is holy and will not accept anything short of that.

LordReed:
So basically he wasn't human? Yet you want to be like him? How will that work?

I think if you reason some of these religious teachings you'll see how utterly madness inducing they are.

Jesus is a human but without the human moral short coming. He is human in the sense that he gets hungry, gets tired, sleep, feel thirst, speaks, talks and live as a human he is but with no moral failure at all.

DaddyCoool:
AI instantly searches millions of pages and gives the consensus answer. Any normal person you tell "the same being who robbed me yesterday came back again today" will instantly know you mean the same exact person!

well the say Ai researched this out.

Righthussle:
He knows his son will not die. It's like a magician giving you money that he knows will return to his pocket. Na fake sacrifice.

Jesus did indeed died proven historically.

Uptownerd:
This is like knowing the root cause of a problem but dancing around it. It's like chasing rat when your house is on fire.

even if the devil is killed human beings will remain corrupted. When you lie, fornicate, kill, get drunk, worship idols, commit adultery, steal etc it is you doing it not the devil, killing the devil will not absolve you of your sin, the question is what can absolve you and cleanse you?

DaddyCoool:
This Google below or another one?

That is because Ai is using the the secular definition of being.
However, when it comes to the Trinity the word "being" means essence.
Even Google admits it.

DaddyCoool:
Of course - Google knows you're alluding to Trinity. Quite different from saying same being

🤦‍♂️dude, goggle literally told you what Christians believe about the Trinity.
Jesus and the father are same being but different persons, because I'm describing the Trinity a person is not same as being.

.

@daddycool, oops google seems to agree with me that a person is not the same as a being,

DaddyCoool:
Well, if you say "same being", almost everyone, including Google, understands it to mean same person. Just say "is of same essence" like the Naecene creed does

The same Google also say this below

DaddyCoool:
Yeah, but this is second definition of one source. You've been shown the consensus number one definition of all sources (Google).
Bottom line:
Stop saying Jesus is same being as the Father. Say instead that Jesus is of same essence as the Father

Here is another one, when the word being is used in describing the Trinity it does not mean person.

DaddyCoool:
You can't make up your own English. We've gone to Google and Merriam-webster, the smartest sources we have - and they both say "same being" means same exact person

I didn't make up anything

No 2 definition the definition of a being used in describing the Trinity.
This is Oxford dictionary. You can see that there are atleast four definition of a being.

DaddyCoool:
OK, here's Merriam-Webster:

This is just one definition of what a being is. According to that definition of Merriam,a being is a person, this is a very limited and narrow definition.
A tree is a being but not a person.
The word "being" and "person" as used to describe the Trinity is not the same way it is used in everyday language.
A being is the existence of anything living with set qualities and attributes. While a person is the self awareness a being posseses.
.

DaddyCoool:
I see what the problem is: you don't know what "same being" means. See below

That is very arrogant of you to assume such.
The word "being" can have different meaning.
It can be used to refer to a person which is understandable because humans are mono personal beings so we tend to define a being as a person.