₦airaland Forum

butterflylion:
I am truly perplexed whenever I come across this particular argument that "atheists must talk about a non existent being" why should this be so going by the import of the God in question ".

It takes some kind of delusion (purposeful or otherwise) to make such an apparent nuisance of ones self.

It's absolute stupidity to always fall back to movies or novels and saying people criticise such even though the characters do not exist.

FYI to EVERYONE in the world the movie or novel characters do not exist because we all know it's make believe.

However to billions of people all over the world God exists so comparing that to movies or novels is at best bordering on insanity and delusion.

With all due respect, do you hate having a reasonable discussion or do you just like posting whatever verbose epistle you can just to deviate from the topic at hand?

I see no relation between your post and the earlier point I made. The simple fact is that people can use abstract concepts to point out the logic in an argument or even the flaws in an argument.


Secondly you should please stop using "ad populum" arguments. The merit of an argument cannot be based on how many people believe in it

butterflylion:
FYI to EVERYONE in the world the movie or novel characters do not exist because we all know it's make believe.

However to billions of people all over the world God exists so comparing that to movies or novels is at best bordering on insanity and delusion.

hopefulLandlord:
Himanistme, I've read the OP, Fundamentalist Christians cannot be a humanist but nominal and other types can be

Sir, please put more effort. I am not Humanistme (which you even misspelled). I am superhumanist.

ifenes:
You are naturally a humanist,biased towards your own kind first before anything. It's pure instincts before a bit of religious brainwash that may or may not last long.

It is quite sad but true. I had a friend who joined one of these fundamentalist pentecostal churches. He changed from an extrovert to a paranoid preacher. He cut off most of his friends and now lives in company of his fellow church members.

See how religion turned a nice guy into a hate-filled paranoid lunatic.


It is not that I'm saying that religion always has negative outcomes. The issue is that typically, religion divides people into the "us VS them" narrative. Believers and non-believers.

butterflylion:
You are not smart are you?

Since you believe God does not exist "to you" why initiate a talk about a non existent God "to you " with one who says God exists? Are you having doubts about his non existence?

It should be me who says God exists that should be the initiator of talking about him with you.

Why do you wish to talk about what does not exist? Are you being delusional?

Yes in fact you are being terribly delusional

For something not to exist it means IT WAS NEVER EVER THERE AND CAN NEVER EVER BE THERE. So why are you so bothered about something that was never ever there to begin with and can never ever be there?

Do you need a psychiatrist?

Hello there.

I am truly perplexed whenever I come across this particular argument that "if god doesn't exist, why do atheists talk about him".

It takes some kind of ignorance (purposeful or otherwise) to make such an argument. Any student of philosophy or debate knows that we use concepts (imaginary concepts, in this case) to point out logic in an argument.


For instance, when criticising a vampire movie, one can state such;
"IF VAMPIRES ARE AFFECTED BY THE SUN DUE TO ITS RAYS, THEN THE VAMPIRES SHOULD ALSO BE AFFECTED BY HIGH POWERED ULTRA-VIOLET LIGHTS AS WELL"

Now, this does not mean that the movie critic believes in vampires. Just as the atheist or deist who does not believe in your god can make arguments with him (your god) without believing in him(your god).

hopefulLandlord:
can a Christian be a humanist? yes

Sir, did you read the op? The answer is far more than "yes"

Humanistme:
anyone can be a humanist.

Anyone?

Can the KKK christians be humanists?
What about ultra conservative muslims who believe that infidels are inferior?

There is even a form of christianity called "christian humanism". However, one must be careful as "christian humanism" has many varying definitions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism

dalaman:
If God is Self-sufficient, why would money always be solicited on his behalf?

Why will a God request for things from humans if he is all sufficient? Only the needy request for things, no?

Why does the all sufficient sound and behave in such a very needy manner?

The easy answer is that many pastors use this as a pretext to collect money from the sheep in church.

As a deist, I refuse to believe in a personal god that demands money from his or her followers.

It is only a useless parent that will impose tax on the children.

This also applies to islam. There is a good example of Maajid Nawaz, who is a muslim that is very secular and believes in human rights before religion.

https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-no-idea-is-above-scrutiny-no-idea-whatsoever-to-criticize-to-scrutinize-and-to-satirize-maajid-nawaz-107-83-13.jpg

CAN A CHRISTIAN BE A HUMANIST?

This is a tricky question because there are many kinds of christians and the answer depends on the "type" of christian a person is. Simply put, the answer is "yes"- a christian can be a humanist but he or she must be a certain type of christian.

The type of christian that can be a humanist would have to have the following traits

*Accepting that christianity and other religions should be treated equally under the law
*Accepting that religion should not be a factor guiding government policy (Secularism)
*When dealing with others, the cost to human life supersedes any religious dogma or decree from "higher powers"

In short, the christian humanist knows to keep religion as a personal thing when dealing with others. He or she does not force christianity on others and uses logic to make decisions that affect others.

Unfortunately, very few christians are like this. Many cannot separate their religious life from their relationship with others. This especially describes many Nigerians who see life only through a religious lens.


By Superhumanist.

GoodMuyis:
You are confused,

Confused with Natural tendency with Religion.

Religion (Christianity) only add values to people's moral stance. Naturally people can good or bad be it atheist or not.

Religion (christianity) adds nothing of value to people's moral stance. A wicked person is a wicked person, be he/she a christian or not. christianity can also make a person do evil and feel good about it eg the witch killers, homophobic abusers etc

9jakohai:
(In making fun of someone mode)

Wonders shall never end!

Once upon a time, atheists used to tell everyone that they were 'not a religion'

Now....we have atheist churches, atheist youth camp, and now someone is saying that atheists should evangelize for their 'belief'

Coming up next.....ATHEIST CRUSADE.....theme 'Believe in thyself' with ministrations from the Reason Choir. Come and be freed from your religious bondage!

And coming to a bookstore near you....How I became a born again atheist!

(Atheism is now a religion, who would have thought! )

Look....one reason why I admire atheists is because they do not go for that thing of 'converting people to atheism'. That is what we deluded Christians , Muslims, etc are supposed to be doing!

Atheism is not a religious belief or a belief period. Don't make it one (See me, a religious born again Christian is the one saying it!).

Atheist church (in case you think I made it up): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Assembly

Sir/Ma, I have an important lesson for you;

Atheism is not a religion. But atheists can be religious.
Companies and organisations advertise their goods/ethos and it doesn't mean that they are evangelising.

Bolaji21:
Yes, prophecy. Our God knew it will happen that's why He informed us ahead so we can be prepared for it. It could have been avoided, but that lies with we men, not God.

I can't guess how it sounds to you, and I'm not sure if you read my post or reading something else into it. By we, do you mean atheists or Christians? Cos we Christians are doing something about it as it's a family affair.
At no point did I say nothing should be done about it. I'm curious, what do you intend to do about it?

"We" as in, all of us. Honest people.

Bolaji21:
You misunderstood me. I didn't deny that Christians can do those crazy things. In fact, I said it's not surprising cos it's been prophecied.

And as for empathy, your post wasn't about the members, but the pastors.

Prophecy? Then what is the point if even your God could see that your religion is doomed with false preachers? It sounds self defeating.

It also sounds as a lazy excuse to avoid dealing with this issue. Because it is prophesied, we shoud not do anything about these crazy pastors?

Auki:
These are signs from your Lord for those that observe and thinks.

Central message to all God revealed religion is:

Mankind were only commanded to worship Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give Zakah (Charity). And that is the correct religion.

Worshiping Jesus, creating sects, false miracles, apparent scam by men of God is not what God ordained to mankind.

Sir, preaching islam here is not the answer. It is not like there arent hate preachers, murderous clerics and bad imams in islam.

Agimor:
Like the first two commenters has said already nothing is wrong can be wrong with Christianity. The Bible prefigured all these to take place so aren't surprised. Just that Christians are ought to be wise like the serpent to discern God sent, but unfortunately they aren't they choose to remain dumb.

Read my replies to the two commenters. Christians can do wrong.

Bolaji21:
Dear Superhumanist,
Nothing is wrong with Christianity: God has not changed and he won't. The Bible doesn't have a second edition yet.

But as for the mortals you mentioned, they're obviously not representing the God of the Christians in this matter.
But we as Christians are not ashamed, neither are really surprised because it has been recorded centuries before now that such events will occur.
This further strengthens rather than weaken our faith in the omniscient God whom we believe and serve.

I feel that your view on these crazy pastor is both nonchalant and dangerous. It is like you are denying that christians (the crazy pastors) can do bad things and also, it is like you have no empathy for the members of those churches who are being abused and deceived.

Jacksonville:
First, you should define the term 'Christianity'
..

Secondly, nothing is wrong with it but the people who call themselves Christians n prophets who have been hi jacked by a different spirit that is not of GOD. A good tree can't bear bad fruits. The spirit of God has its fruits, which is evident in the works of the true believers n ministers of GOD.

Excuse me, but are you saying that real christians cannot do bad things?

Bolaji21:
Help me check yours and provide the definitions.
Or let me help: RELIGION IS BELIEF IN SOMETHING (OR SOMEONE). Ask yourself why your most active section on nairaland is religion section, of all sections on nairaland. And ask yourself why you felt the need to defend and agitate for this belief of yours.

If I believe in Cristiano Ronaldo to win the world best every year till he retires, is that religion? Or is your definition of religion too vague.

shadeyinka:
It doesn't concern you since you do not believe any religion. Most religion give hope, but yours (atheism) doesn't.

That is the point

There is hope without religion.

Atheism is not a religion

Bolaji21:
That's what the deceiver has made you believe. Define RELIGION and see for yourself.

It seems like you do not have a dictionary.

GodsMopol:
Submit your facts and argument.

My personal submission, the universe is so beautiful a place that all those religions had to believe in one deity.

If you ask me which religion, I would say, I don't know

I would say that there is a god but none of the religions understand him. I would say that god does not need religion or books to communicate with us.

This is madness. This can only happen in a religious country like the USA.

Such a cult would have been exposed in Europe where they frown on such cult like abuse of women and children done in the name of religion. Such people will be thoroughly investigated.

This post even relates to my thread where I feel that pastors are getting madder by the day

https://www.nairaland.com/4007133/it-me-pastors-getting-madder

I truly wonder what is happening nowadays inside churches. First, we heard a pastor brainwashing members to eat grass. Another pastor sprayed insecticide on members as "anointment". Another pastor said that his semen is "holy milk". Another pastor impregnated a woman that was looking for cure for a sickness.

And today, I am hearing that a pastor said that he wrestled God in heaven- WWE style like John Cena with suplex and submission moves.


Dear friends, is something wrong with christianity nowadays?

Bolaji21:
The atheist obviously did an incomplete job on you, cos he succeeded in turning you to deist, and not an atheist. You may sound better if you put points forward to establish the validity and soundness of your religion, deism.

Deism is not a religion

shadeyinka:
How can I?
Over the Truth!?

Which is Better, to
1. Exchange Hope for Hopelessness!
OR
2. Exchange Hopelessness for Hope!

Its so simple.

You see your religion as truth and hope. There are hundreds of other religions that also see themselves as "truth".

It is not as simple as you say it is.

darknez:
Hehehehehe....

Don't get ahead of yourself. You assume too much in your first paragraph. Remember, I am yet to make any assertions of my own. I am yet to tell you if I have a God I worship or not. You on the other hand have made quite a number of assertions, hence my curiosity.

Interesting stuff you have there but a Christian would argue that you try to equate God with mere mortals which can be assumed to be ignorant from the viewpoint of a Christian. Let me give you an example...

Let's assume I make toys...and by some unexpected know-how, I manage to infuse in each toy the ability to think for itself and reproduce. These toys I made for a specific purpose e.g to make my children happy.

If I later decide that I no longer like the toys I made and I decide to do away with them just like I do away with my old clothes. Would it be logical for someone to accuse me of cruelty?

Let's bring it a bit closer home. I bought this set of pots a year ago. At the time I bought them, they were sparkling and I loved them. Yesterday, the same pots I professed to love, I did away with all of them via the trash bin. Does that make me cruel and wicked?

Again, I love to eat chickens. I kill them for food without batting an eye lid. I have also destroyed a whole family of roaches and mosquitoes without flinching or having a second thought. Does doing those make me a mass murderer? Not in the very least.

There is something you need to understand. If a lion kills a human being, by definition, that lion cannot be accused of murder. Only a human being can legally commit murder. The Christians, posit that the God you speak of is not human, hence cannot commit murder.

Secondly, Christians posit that the relationship, in terms of superiority and value, between a human and a grain of sand, cannot be compared with the relationship between God and man. If a human can kill a roach and not be bothered about it, then God can equally do what he pleases to man without any considerations.

You may not agree to it but to a Christian, you argue about the mass murder thingy because you have no clue of the nature of God...that a Christian would call ignorant.

A cockroach is not sentient with intelligence. A toy is not sentient with intelligence. You are a christian- that is the only reason why you would put such a ridiculous defense of the atrocities of Yahweh.

Bolaji21:
And what are atheists supposed to be preaching? That God doesn't exist and all religions are false, right? That in itself, is RELIGION.
Some people BELIEVE there's God, and some BELIEVE there's God. Both categories BELIEVE some thing.

When PDP does adverts are they preaching? When cocacola does adverts, are they preaching?

"Preaching" is used for lack of a better word. Atheists, humanists, deists can all talk about the ills of religion in a constructive way

darknez:
Hmmmm....

If I understand you correctly, though you weren't very explicit, you left Christianity because you are upset with what you perceive to be the God of the old testament and your perceived notion that the Bible contradicts itself in some way.

To be frank with you, I don't really give two hoots about your decision to embrace Deism, but I am very curious about your motivation. Like I said before, you may not have gone past the era where you make decisions out of ignorance. I am sure you know I do not mean this as an insult.

If you left Christianity for what you perceive to be a liberation from the bondage of ignorance, don't you think that embracing some other 'religion'...pardon my language here, I choose to tag Atheism too as a religion for want of a better term...when you aren't very sure where you stand with such 'religion' nor why you left the former in the first place, could still be tagged as ignorant?

Yeah, you may want to argue that you are very sure of your reasons for leaving Christianity but to show you how wrong you are, I would ask you these two questions:

1) Defend you belief that God, as depicted in the Old testament was a monster.
2) Show me at least one area in the Bible that is contradictory to you.

I would be glad if you would humor me with some form of evidence, if you have any.


Thankus.

1) Go and read your bible. Just look at how many unnecessary wars that were ordered by God. Women who were raped were forced to marry their rapist. Slavery of non-isrealites was allowed. Why does your God kill innocent children to punish their fathers instead of just punishing the fathers?

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 25:44-46: As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.



So many things to say but I'll let you digest this first