₦airaland Forum

Nobody555:
First you have to realize that "making heaven" is not a Bible word. Jesus emphasized on "inheriting the kingdom". Since the revelation is a prophecy of what will happen in the future, we could conclude that the 144k are the people redeemed from the world to be made kings in God's kingdom established in heaven. This is not a personal opinion but what the Bible teaches.
The disciples of Jesus on earth, were they just followers, weren't they working with him?
The 144000 are humans ruling together with Christ.

Which other people did the bible say will be in the kingdom or "make heaven"?

We don't conclude. We wait for God to reveal. Your conclusion's are wrong.
The 144000 will rule with Christ but wouldn't be the only ones in heaven.
Heaven is not decided by a number but by our actions on earth.
The Bible teach that these 144k would be with Christ and sing as a choir. It never says they are the only ones to be in heaven. Unless you have another verse to show me

Nobody555:
Lol I'm following the bible doctrine. You have no verses to counter that there are other people in heaven aside the 144k

So if no verse says only 144k would be in heaven and no verse says more or less would be in heaven. Don't let us act for God. Wait for his revelation before creating your doctrine. Just because no verse says snow does not fall in heaven, I can't start teaching that snow falls in heaven

Nobody555:
Important note!
Pls ensure to make your responses short and precise. Referencing the bible is very essential. No insult on personal level or religion is allowed pls. Let's try to portray Christ in our character and how we interact with others. Don't try to force your opinions on others, it's an open discussion. When proving your point, asking questions is better than making assertions.

Since when i was in my early teens, i have been finding it hard to comprehend and believe the Trinity. I'm often told that I need to believe God as mystery. So i wonder, how can I know or walk with a mystery God?
I also wonder if the the disciples and the early church understand God as three persons in one God or one God in three persons or just one singular God, a person?

John 14:17,26
[17]He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.......
[26]But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

The question here is if the holy spirit taught the apostles and first believers everything and led them into all truth, why are we still left to believe God as mystery?
Another question is those that established the Trinity doctrine years later after the early christians, were they led by the holy spirit?

"Trinitarians believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience".

Now this thread will focus mainly on the "COEQUALNESS" of the Trinity members. Other qualities will be discussed in my subsequent thread.
Is the Father greater than the son?
Are YHWH and Jesus really coequal?

John 14:28
[28]Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am.
1 Corinthians 11:3
[3]But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

First define the trinity. Then define a God. What makes one a God? I don't believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not the same person but all 3 constitute a Godhead. Each plays a special role in the salvation of mankind.
The Father presides over all.
Jesus Christ is the Creator, Savior and the judge on the last day.
And the Holy Ghost is the spirit among the 3.
Man has a body in the Image of the father and son.
The father and Son have Immortal Glorified tangible bodies.
The Holy Ghost is different. He can't be touched and he can take other forms.

Nobody555:
If you still don't know what God's kingdom will do or its purpose, you still have a lot of study to do. They will rule the earth. They are made as priests to God. They will rule and judge the world together with Jesus when the kingdom comes to earth. The kingdom will destroy anything evil from the earth. Daniel 2:44.
They are other verses go and study.

The TRUTH and fact is those that are made kings and priests to be part of God's kingdom are the 144000 chosen from saints all over the world.
So it's possible that some would go to heaven but won't be part of the established kingdom, but i don't think so.
What you should have in mind is that earth was created to be and is the everlasting home of man and other earthly creatures.
Do you really understand that bolded phrase?
The 144000 are not the only righteous people or saints or christians that has ever lived on earth, but they were/are chosen according to God's will. It could be anyone.
So from the beginning of the argument, what makes you think they are other people in God's kingdom?

I understand you must follow your doctrine but I put God's Word above every doctrine.
I understand that both heaven and earth earth would be ruled by God and his people. But at no time did the bible reveal that any particular number would go to heaven or thathe those on earth wouldn't be able to go to heaven.
Those are all man made teachings, not from the Bible. I respect your opinion and doctrine but you should be honest, these teachings are not from the bible

Nobody555:
If you still don't know what God's kingdom will do or its purpose, you still have a lot of study to do. They will rule the earth. They are made as priests to God. They will rule and judge the world together with Jesus when the kingdom comes to earth. The kingdom will destroy anything evil from the earth. Daniel 2:44.
They are other verses go and study.

The TRUTH and fact is those that are made kings and priests to be part of God's kingdom are the 144000 chosen from saints all over the world.
So it's possible that some would go to heaven but won't be part of the established kingdom, but i don't think so.
What you should have in mind is that earth was created to be and is the everlasting home of man and other earthly creatures.
Do you really understand that bolded phrase?
The 144000 are not the only righteous people or saints or christians that has ever lived on earth, but they were/are chosen according to God's will. It could be anyone.
So from the beginning of the argument, what makes you think they are other people in God's kingdom?

I agree with most of what you say the only difference is the bible never state that these 144000 would be the only ones to make heaven. It's your personal opinion not back by scripture. Now where in the bible was a number set for those that would make heaven.
We learn from revelations 14 that these 144k were chosen to be Christ entourage and chior. Not that they would be the only ones to make heaven.
They would be with Christ on mount Zion when Christ comes to rule over the earth

cornelboy:
That's it! Don't say and ask questions bout what you don't want to know or the bible didn't talk about.
It's clear. Jesus said those that will inherit the kingdom must be born and he also said the patriarchs and the prophets will be seen there. Are they born again i.e baptized by the holy spirit? But God still made it possible.
He also said the pure in heart will see God, the persecuted for doing right will inherit the kingdom, the poor in spirit too will inherit the kingdom etc. The book of revelation that reveals events that will happen in the future says those that are or will be in the kingdom are 144k. What else do we need?

But it did not say those that will be in the kingdom are 144k. It says those that would follow Jesus wherever he goes and sing for him are 144k. I am always very careful not to add my own ideas to the bible. That is why when you suggested that Abraham wasn't a prophet, despite the fact that I think he is, I could not honestly carry on with the argument and depend on the bible. If the bible didn't say only these guys would make heaven, I would be afraid to say so.

cornelboy:
Yes I agree that no verse explicitly say that only the 144000 are in heaven. But they are the only ones recorded that we see in the bible to be in heaven. And it's for a purpose.

Well at least now, we have a common ground.
We can continue from here.
And yes I agree we are told about this 144k that would follow Jesus wherever he goes for a purpose only that it is not given to me or you to decide the purpose.
When you start the trinity thread, let me know.

cornelboy:
Which other place in the bible or revelation mention that they are not the only ones?
The 144000 are chosen from all the saints all over the world. It could be you.

We can both agree that no verse said anything about it. No verse said they would be the only ones or not. If we agree on this at least we have some progress

Janosky:
Will be here later later..

Oga, thanks for your time.

Shalom

Thanks man.

cornelboy:
Which other place in the bible or revelation mention that they are not the only ones?
The 144000 are chosen from all the saints all over the world. It could be you.

I never said they are not chosen. I just asked you to show me any verse that indicates these are the only ones meant for heaven and i want you to be honest about it. A verse that makes it clear only 1440000 people can enter heaven.

If your argument is that the bible never said these are not the only ones, I love that. I love the fact that you don't know. we can leave it at that

Janosky:
Oga, Revelation 1:1, was given to John "in signs" not everything is literal.
Says the scriptures.

James 4:4, Adulteresses is tied to Friendship against God.
You know that Adulteresses reference "women", is it not?
Adulteresses at James 4:4 is NOT women !
Revelation 14:4 & James 4:4, the common thread is defilement in a spiritual sense.
2 Corinthians 11:2 virginity of the believers is the same virginity for the 144000 @Rev 14:4.
Revelation 2:10, they were promised the crown of life
Revelation 14:3 & 5:9-10, Oga, Were the Corinthian believers redeemed?
Yes !
2 Corinthians 11:2 = Revelation 14:4.

If we agree it's all figurative, then don't you think the 144000 men could mean something else. Maybe it meant 144000 days or 144000 cities or just about anything?

cornelboy:
The new Jerusalem will come to earth and God will live with his people.
The will of God for earth would have been fufilled.
Why is there's need for people to go to heaven again? Or don't you know earth was created as home for man in the beginning?

I don't know why there would be a need. I don't know things that have not been revealed. I only quoted
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


What has been revealed is enough for me

cornelboy:
Christ himself will be subjected to God. He will give the rule back to GOD his Father.
God will rule everything himself. That's why we warn that Trinity is a false doctrine. Our worship should be purely to God the Father of all. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
The Truth is one no matter what.

If you can point me to any verse in the bible and tell me that honestly from your heart, you believe that verse is saying that only these 144000 would make heaven, I would drop my case. I may not believe you but at least i would know you are being honest.

cornelboy:
Christ himself will be subjected to God. He will give the rule back to GOD his Father.
God will rule everything himself. That's why we warn that Trinity is a false doctrine. Our worship should be purely to God the Father of all. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
The Truth is one no matter what.

We can discuss the trinity at any time. I am sure it would make an interesting discussion. But first, could you honestly tell me from your heart as a true Christian that any verse in the bible stated that only these 144000 would make heaven?

cornelboy:
Christ himself will be subjected to God. He will give the rule back to GOD his Father.
God will rule everything himself. That's why we warn that Trinity is a false doctrine. Our worship should be purely to God the Father of all. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
The Truth is one no matter what.

I have no argument with this. Which scripture says that anyone but these 144000 men cant enter heaven.

[quote author=cornelboy post=109639497][/quote]The city comes out of heaven to where? And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Is it not to earth?
So are we not saying the same thing? Christ would reign on earth. and the 144000 would follow him everywhere he goes. That's all the scripture says about them.
It did not say only them would be in heaven. Oh am I wrong?

Janosky:
Jesus Christ raised from the dead is simple and straightforward.


Revelation 14:1, Where was Jesus Christ going on earth when he gave revelation to John?

Psalms 74:2, mount Zion is heaven, simple and straightforward.

To the church in Hebrew, paul describes Mount Zion as their membership of the church. Hebrew 12.22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

cornelboy:
It's not and i don't think he meant that. But some phrases are clearly figurative.

I agree with you, some phrases are clearly figurative.

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. Now in this phrase what is the figurative meaning of women?

Janosky:
Jesus Christ raised from the dead is simple and straightforward.


Revelation 14:1, Where was Jesus Christ going on earth when he gave revelation to John?

Psalms 74:2, mount Zion is heaven, simple and straightforward.

2 Samuel 5:7 mount zion city of David

Janosky:
Jesus Christ raised from the dead is simple and straightforward.


Revelation 14:1, Where was Jesus Christ going on earth when he gave revelation to John?

Psalms 74:2, mount Zion is heaven, simple and straightforward.

Oh, you only choose to make some verses figurative? Good for you

Janosky:
Friendship with the world" is adultery in the spiritual sense..
Virginity in Rev 14:4 & 2 Corinthians 11:2 is not literal, but in the spiritual sense, that is, "spotless from the world"

Since you believe the entire bible is a figurative book, you can clearly make any verse to be what you want it to be and I can't argue with that. If you tell me Christ's death was figurative, what can I say?

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. not figurative. Please what is the figurative meaning of women here?

cornelboy:
Revelation 14:3
[3]This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Where were the 144000 learning the song, heaven or not?

We already agree that these 144000 would go to heaven. They were clearly in a heavenly choir.

cornelboy:
John 5:28-29
[28]Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son,
[29]and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Daniel 12:2
[2]Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.

Their eternal life will continue on earth.

I need your honesty here, Did the bible in any way set a number for heaven? can you point to any verse that teaches only 1440000 would be in heaven?

Again, why only 144000? Doesn't this make God a super failure?

cornelboy:
John 5:28-29
[28]Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son,
[29]and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Daniel 12:2
[2]Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.

Their eternal life will continue on earth.

Their eternal life will continue on earth. I agree that both heaven and earth would be filled with those living eternal life. This has never been the argument.
It was you that created an arbitrary number for heaven. That is the discussion.
Again we are never told that those on earth would be barred from heaven.

Janosky:
Revelation 1:1, Jesus presented the revelation in signs to John. .

2 Corinthians 11:2 were the Corinthian believers virgins?

Oga, shine your eyes.
2 Corinthians 11:2 & Revelation 14:4, are saying the same thing- virginity is in the spiritual sense.
Oga, is there gender in the spiritual realm where Jesus is dwelling?

You can't convince yourself that every believer in Corinth is a virgin.


@ 12:05am, you already said "the 144000 were not the only people in heaven"

Oga, Mount Zion is a scriptural reference for heaven, Psalms 74:2.

Every event in Revelation chapter 14 took place in heaven.

First, are you saying that every word in the bible is figurative? what is your point?
So when the bible says Jesus was raised from the dead it means something else?

@ 12:05am, you already said "the 144000 were not the only people in heaven" Yes the bible never indicated figuratively or otherwise that these are the only people meant for heaven. the bible did not even mention heaven when talking about them

Janosky:
Revelation 1:1, Jesus presented the revelation in signs to John. .

2 Corinthians 11:2 were the Corinthian believers virgins?

Oga, shine your eyes.
2 Corinthians 11:2 & Revelation 14:4, are saying the same thing- virginity is in the spiritual sense.
Oga, is there gender in the spiritual realm where Jesus is dwelling?

You can't convince yourself that every believer in Corinth is a virgin.


Again, Revelations 14 did not say these men were with Christ in heaven. They stood with him on mount Sion. Up till now you have not pointed me to where the bible says only these men would be in heaven

Oga, Mount Zion is a scriptural reference for heaven, Psalms 74:2.

Every event in Revelation chapter 14 took place in heaven.

I already told you that I agree 2 Corinthians 11:2 is figurative and not literal. I am only saying that revelations 14 is not figurative.

cornelboy:
The point is these people will be resurrected first before the rest and rule with Christ. This the first resurrection.
The others will be resurrected when the kingdom comes to earth to fulfill God's will. But the won't go to heaven but live on earth forever!

But they won't go to heaven but live on earth forever! How do you know that these won't go to heaven. Christ would rule over both heaven and earth. Is it written that those on earth cant go to heaven?

cornelboy:
See it's not about making heaven to enjoy.
These people get work for there. They are kings and priests. And they are coming to earth to restore things.

That they are Kings and Priests, I agree. Everyone that overcomes would be given a crown. I am not reducing the power of these 144000 I am only saying that we are not told they are the only ones to make heaven.
I understand it's your doctrine and you believe this, I am only saying that it's not taught in the bible. If you have other scriptures that teach your doctrine, I would be happy to read them and pray about them. But as long as you have only used the bible It would be wrong for me to claim that such is written in the bible

cornelboy:
What does firstfruits unto God mean?
Revelation 14:3
[3]This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
If i were you i would compare versions of the Bible not stick to KJ versions

Can we both agree on something despite our differences? Can we agree that the bible never said these are the only people going to heaven?

cornelboy:
What does firstfruits unto God mean?
Revelation 14:3
[3]This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
If I were you i would compare version of the Bibles not stick to KJ versions

It means that God has more than one fruit. Being the first doesn't mean the only fruit. Or the only fruit in heaven. As I said, these were clearly men of great importance in the kingdom.
Again, there was no female in this group. They were Jesus's choir.
Note the bible didn't even say they were in heaven but mount Sion.

cornelboy:
Revelation 14:4
[4]They have kept themselves as pure as virgins, following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb.

Do you think the kingdom is just for boys in there late teens or early twenties that haven't had sex?
What bout people like Paul, Peter Mary and the First 120 people that were baptized with holy spirit?
You think Peter is still in the grave now waiting for resurrection while some boys are ruling with Christ?

I would say, you are making my point, These 144000 are only are part of the kingdom, Christ entourage. Were they special? Yes. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Were they the only ones to make heaven? No, the bible never indicated such.

Janosky:
2 Corinthians 11:2
. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him."

Oga, were the Corinthian believers redeemed @ Revelation 14:3 & Virgins @ Revelation 14:4?

2 Corinthians 11:2 very very clearly figurative. I agree no argument. Is your point that every verse in the bible is figurative?
I guess Mary was a figurative virgin