₦airaland Forum

cornelboy:
Alright i think I'm understanding you now.
What about these 144000 that God chose from every part of the world and bought with Christ blood to be kings and priests in God's kingdom, when will they be in the kingdom?

It's clearly written, they are Christ's entourage to follow him everywhere he goes.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Again, Revelations 14 did not say these men were with Christ in heaven. They stood with him on mount Sion. Up till now you have not pointed me to where the bible says only these men would be in heaven

Janosky:
Isaiah 57:3-13, James 4:4, adultery, prostitution is NOT related to sleeping with women, in the same manner that Virginity @ 2 Corinthians 11:2 & Revelation 14:4 is not literal.
James 4:4 "Friendship with the world is adultery" not in a literal, sexual way.
2 Corinthians 11:2, believers are virgins to Christ", does it mean virginity in the literal way?

No !
Most of the believers were married.
Therefore, Revelation 14:4 & 2 Corinthians 11:2 is not virginity in a literal way.
Virginity is spiritual purity "spotless from the world", John 17:16

Wrong again. First just because the bible did not speak literally in Isaiah does not mean that every verse in the bible isn't literal. That obviously makes no sense.

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This is not figurative.

cornelboy:
He meant they were worshipping other gods instead of YHWH. That makes them prostitutes.

Thats clear enough. See our aim here isn't to point out every time the bible does not mean something literally. They are millions of verses like that and no one would argue about that. But this isn't. Jonh took the pains to explain why they were virgins. It was clearly stated they had not had sex with women

cornelboy:
Are you saying all the righteous will be in the kingdom of God?
Are they in the kingdom presently, like did they go to inherit it after death or they will inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back and they are resurrected from the dead?

When they are resurrected and judged.

Janosky:
Oga, in the old testament, Isaiah 57:3-13, JEHOVAH accused Israel of prostitution, were they fornicating with women?
No !!!

Revelation 14 :1-3 & James 4:4 have proven that it's not virginity in the literal sense.

All the ones listed in your post ,'born again", "pure in heart" etc form the "144000 redeemed from the earth to rule with Christ."

2 Peter 3:13, your Bible & Jesus Christ @ Matthew 5:5 proven that all good people will NOT go to heaven.
The righteous ones not going to heaven will inherit the earth forever in peace and longevity, Revelation 21:3-5.

First, the scriptures make it clear that the righteous would inherit the earth and heaven. It never said those that inherit the earth cant inherit heaven and those that inherit heaven cant inherit the earth. Everything that God has would be given to the righteous both in heaven and earth.
Please show where it says those that inherit the earth wouldn't inherit heaven.

All the ones listed in your post ,'born again", "pure in heart" etc form the "144000 redeemed from the earth to rule with Christ.
To rule DOESNT MEAN THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES IN HEAVEN. again they would rule on this earth, not heaven.

Janosky:
Oga, in the old testament, Isaiah 57:3-13, JEHOVAH accused Israel of prostitution, were they fornicating with women?
No !!!

Revelation 14 :1-3 & James 4:4 have proven that it's not virginity in the literal sense.

All the ones listed in your post are the "144000 redeemed from the earth to rule with Christ"

Revelation 14 :1-3 & James 4:4 have proven that it's not virginity in the literal sense & James 4:4 have proven that it's not virginity in the literal sense Lets reAD THESE VERSES TO FIND OUT WHERE IT SAYS THEY ARE NOT LITERAL VIRGINS.

Revelation 14 :1-3
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

James 4:4
4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

NONE OF THESE VERSES SAY THEY ARE NOT LITERAL VIRGINS

Janosky:
Oga, in the old testament, Isaiah 57:3-13, JEHOVAH accused Israel of spiritual immorality, were they fornicating with women?
No !!!

All the ones listed in your post are the "144000 redeemed from the earth to rule with Christ"

Oga, in the old testament, Isaiah 57:3-13, JEHOVAH accused Israel of spiritual immorality, were they fornicating with women?
No !!! I am not getting your point. You just said they were accused of spiritual immorality, not physical immorality. What is your point?

cornelboy:
Matthew 6:10
[10]May your Kingdom come soon.
May your will be done on earth,
    as it is in heaven.
Matthew 3:2
[2]“Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.”
Luke 8:1
[1]Soon afterward Jesus began a tour of the nearby towns and villages, preaching and announcing the Good News about the Kingdom of God. He took his twelve disciples with him,

[color=#000000]What's the kingdom of God to you? Does it mean just heaven or going to heaven after death? Or they have a specific mission to accomplish in the future?[/color]

Luke 13:28-29
[28]“....for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out.
[29]And people will come from all over the world—from east and west, north and south—to take their places in the Kingdom of God.

[color=#000000]You quoted this verse yourself. Why will only Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets be in God's kingdom, what bout the kings and the a the people of Israel?[/color]

Isaiah 9:6
....The government will rest on his shoulders...

Daniel 2:44
[44]“During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed or conquered. It will crush all these kingdoms into nothingness, and it will stand forever.

Revelation 12:10
[10]Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens,
“It has come at last—
    salvation and power
and the Kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters
    has been thrown down to earth—
the one who accuses them
    before our God day and night.

[color=#000000]The kingdom was set up in a particular time which clearly shows that it's heaven itself.
It's was set up after Jesus resurrected to heaven, fought and defeated Satan. Christ was then instated as the king of God's kingdom.[/color]

Revelation 5:9-10
For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation.
[10]And you have caused them to become
    a Kingdom of priests for our God.
    And they will reign on the earth.”
These are the few people chosen to rule with Christ compared to the population of christians.
If every good person goes to heaven or are part of God's kingdom, who will they rule over? The few chosen ones ransomed by blood of Christ are the kings under Jesus the King.
They've already began ruling in heaven but the kingdom will come to rule the earth and fulfill God's will for earth. Dan 2:44, Mathew 6:10.

Revelation 14:1-4
[1]Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
[2]And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of mighty ocean waves or the rolling of loud thunder. It was like the sound of many harpists playing together.
[3]This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
[4]They have kept themselves as pure as virgins, following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb.

Or maybe you can show me where the Bible says [b]every [/b]righteous people will inherit God's kingdom Make we reason.

1st you have failed to show any scripture that says only 144000 men would be in the kingdom.
Secondly, the bible does not need to use your words that every righteous person would be in the kingdom but it says it abundantly.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
'To him who overcomes I will give the privilege of sitting down with Me on My throne, as I also have overcome and have sat down with My Father on His throne
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

How else do you want it to be said

cornelboy:
Yeah i de feel you. This not for argument sake.
Guy nobody fit be virgin forever. Even virgin Mary mother of Jesus was disflowered.
Reason on the revelation verse i gave you bro about hell and death being cast into the lake of fire. It's not literal, it means something else. Figure it out yourself.
Jesus didn't even say na only men go de the kingdom.
I'll post that comment soon

let's claim the virgins are not literal because I would love to hear your argument.
But then you most be more honest than the last guy. You should be able to point out where the bible claimed that only 144000 men would be in heaven.

cornelboy:
Yeah i de feel you. This not for argument sake.
Guy nobody fit be virgin forever. Even virgin Mary mother of Jesus was disflowered.
Reason on the revelation verse i gave you bro about hell and death being cast into the lake of fire. It's not literal, it means something else. Figure it out yourself.
Jesus didn't even say na only men go de the kingdom.
I'll post that comment soon

First there are people that have been virgins forever.
For now, I can agree with you that hell and death being cast into the lake of fire is not literal because I told you I don't know but do you want us to claim that everything in revelations is not literal?

Janosky:
Who are the redeemed in Revelation 14:1-3 & Revelation 5:9-10?
Only 144,000 priests and kings to rule with Jesus Christ over the earth.

Revelation 3:21, do you know that Jesus Christ was appointed a king in heaven?
Revelation 14:1-3 & Revelation 5:9-10, 144000 are his co- rulers.



Oga, 144000 redeemed to rule as "priests and kings with Christ" are not in heaven for music jamboree.

Kingdom meaning Government of a king.
Revelation 3:21, Jesus is the king of his Father's kingdom.
Is there any kingdom with out subjects?
Matthew 5:5 & 2 Peter 3:13, are the righteous subjects of God's kingdom who will never die not fall sick, Revelation 21:4-5.

Let me again quote a verse That I already quoted 100 times here.

Luke 13:28

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

many of these men are married not virgins. example Abraham.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
The kingdom of God is not a boy's club as you feel

Janosky:
Who are the redeemed in Revelation 14:1-3 & Revelation 5:9-10?
Only 144,000 priests and kings to rule with Jesus Christ over the earth.

Revelation 3:21, do you know that Jesus Christ was appointed a king in heaven?
Revelation 14:1-3 & Revelation 5:9-10, 144000 are his co- rulers.



Oga, 144000 redeemed to rule as "priests and kings with Christ" are not in heaven for music jamboree.

Kingdom meaning Government of a king.
Revelation 3:21, Jesus is the king of his Father's kingdom.
Is there any kingdom with out subjects?
Matthew 5:5 & 2 Peter 3:13, are the righteous subjects of God's kingdom who will never die not fall sick, Revelation 21:4-5.

take it easy Revelation 5:9-10 says nothing about your 1440000 people. bro please i need to know what bible you use so we can be using the same bible ok.

cornelboy:
I was trying to show you that "virgin" in the book of revelation and Jesus' parable is figurative. It illustrate righteous people.

My brother, we don't just decide to call stuff figurative for argument's sake. John was very clear, he explained that these guys have never been with women. Secondly, we are never told that these are the only people to go to heaven. That's the major issue here. You need to show why you think John was being figurative.

Janosky:
Who else did your Bible tell you were taken to heaven as priests and kings to rule with Christ?

If you had any verse that indicated that only the number you suggested are going to heaven, we would have taken you seriously. We can stop here for now.
Do I believe that the righteous would dwell on the earth? Yes I do
Do I believe in a new heaven and new earth? Yes, I do. I have always believed this.
Do I believe that heaven is for 144000 virgin boys? Its not taught in your bible simple.

cornelboy:
The response is ready already but before i post it i have some questions? Is the book of revelation mostly literal or symbolic?

Revelation 20:14 NLV
[14]Then death and the grave (or hell) were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.

Is grave hell or death something you can cast into fire literally?

To this question my honest answer is I don't know. But where are you going with this?

I just want us to be honest with each other as we do this. Let's agree with only what the Bible says

Janosky:
Who else did your Bible tell you were taken to heaven as priests and kings to rule with Christ?

The righteous.
The kind, matt 25 remember.
The pure in heart.
Those that overcome.
The 12 disciples.. including the non Virgin's among themy
The born again
And I can go on and on.

Janosky:
Revelation 5:9-10 & Revelation 14:1,3, said so, 144,000 redeemed from the earth to rule with Christ.
Revelation 14:1,144,000 with the Lamb Jesus Christ in heaven.
Revelation 14:3, 144,000 were redeemed from the earth, they sing a special song.
Does tctrills know that song?
[i]Revelation 5:9-10 & Revelation 14:3, says[/i]144,000 were redeemed from the earth to rule in heaven as priests and kings (with Christ) over the earth"

Shikena

Genesis 1:26-28 & Isaiah 45:18 & Matthew 5:5, God's plan for man populate the earth is unchangeable.
2 Peter 3:13 & Matthew 6:9-10 millions of righteous people will dwell on earth forever when God's kingdom comes to rule over the earth heaven

I honestly don't know if we use the same bible
Let's see what Revelation 5:9-10 & Revelation 14:1,3 says in my bible.
Revelation 5:9-10... This is Gods blessing for the righteous nothing about 144000
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 14:1,3
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:3

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Nothing about these 144000 musicians being the only ones to make heaven.

cornelboy:
I've been busy. I don't feel pressured at all.

I guess you are busy but I am having a swell time with another guy who believes in the 14400 thing. He has given me more than 10 verses, none says only 144000 people are going to heaven. Again, the 144,000 must be virgin men. that excludes Peter, he was married.

Can I ask you an honest question?
Is there really any scripture that says only 144000 people are going to heaven?

Janosky:
Pls Note the bolded points in your post & these scriptures in my post:
Revelation 5:9-10,
Revelation 1:5-6.
Revelation 14:1,3.

The 144,000 in heaven with Jesus the Lamb were redeemed from the earth as what?
"Priests and co-rulers with Jesus Christ in God's heavenly kingdom "to rule over the earth"
.
You think say Dem dey go heaven for jamboree?

Genesis 1:26-28 & Isaiah 45:18 & Matthew 5:5, has God ever changed His arrangement for earthly inhabitation?

No , not at all.

2 Peter 3:13 & Matthew 6:9-10, study with understanding.
According to Jesus and his apostle, All good people do NOT go to heaven, Matthew 11:11.

These are clearly Jesus Christ's entourage. It was never indicated that they are the only ones in heaven.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Janosky:
Pls Note the bolded points in your post & these scriptures in my post:
Revelation 5:9-10,
Revelation 1:5-6.
Revelation 14:1,3.

The 144,000 in heaven with Jesus the Lamb were redeemed from the earth as what?
"Priests and co-rulers with Jesus Christ in God's heavenly kingdom "to rule over the earth"
.
You think say Dem dey go heaven for jamboree?

Genesis 1:26-28 & Isaiah 45:18 & Matthew 5:5, has God ever changed His arrangement for earthly inhabitation?

No , not at all.

2 Peter 3:13 & Matthew 6:9-10, study with understanding

The 144,000 in heaven with Jesus the Lamb were redeemed from the earth as what? It never said these where the only people in heaven.
2 Peter 3:13 & Matthew 6:9-10, still nothing about 144,000. Few things here, Mount Sion is in Jerusalem. Again these are all men, no women in heaven. It's just the boy's club. Again they were all virgins. So clearly peter was not one of them, he had a wife.
So correct me if I am wrong, According to you sir, Heaven is a place for 144,000 virgin men who follow Christ everywhere he goes? Is this your doctrine?

You added

Janosky:
Pls Note the bolded points & these scriptures:
Revelation 5:9-10,
Revelation 1:5-6.
Revelation 14:1,3.

The 144,000 in heaven with Jesus the Lamb were redeemed from the earth as what?
"Priests and co-rulers with Jesus Christ in God's heavenly kingdom.

You think say Dem dey go heaven for jamboree?



Genesis 1:26-28 & Isaiah 45:18 & Matthew 5:5, has God ever changed His arrangement for earthly inhabitation?

You added 1 more reading
Revelation 5:9-10,
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

How is this connected you your 144,000. Revelation 5:9-10 never said they were 144,000

Genesis 1:26-28 & Isaiah 45:18 & Matthew 5:5 says nothing about your 144,000. What verse says only 144,000 would be in heaven biko?

Janosky:
Revelation 1:1,5-6 & Revelation 14:1-3.
Do you understand the revelation given to Jesus Christ?

Yes I do but I would love to hear your version. And please stick to the bible and no conspiracy theory ok.
Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 14:1-3
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 14 says John saw Jesus with hundred forty and four thousand on mount Sion, is that it? Like really? How does this tell you that only
these hundred forty and four thousand people are going to heaven?

You are honestly not going to tell me that this was where you got that 144,000 idea from?

Janosky:
144 people is NEVER stated in your Bible as going to heaven.
Do you understand?

No number is stated, whats your point. If you want to take the place of the young man, welcome, this is a forum, you can answer the question

NNTR:
Keeping the context of Matthew 10:28 in mind, what do you, at all know, about Gehenna, that's made you imagined you've seen what I've done with Gehenna? Smh.

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

Gehenna isn't in the English translation. Or are you writing a mixed translation?

cornelboy:
I've been busy. I don't feel pressured at all.

I just got impatient and started messing with you. Don't mind me. I have been loving my discussion with you. You are really smart and fun to discuss with. Thanks for your time so far

Janosky:
Your claim is built on a false premise.

Your own Bible NEVER mentioned 144 people going to heaven..
Cc: Cornelboy

Honestly I don't understand what you mean.

NNTR:
Matthew 10:28
And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul.
Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Matthew 10:28, gives the understanding that immortality isnt a perk souls automatically enjoy

Whats the use of immortality to a soul, that couldn't use, a hour and half well while on earth. No one can be immortal, if they die. There's only one way to be immortal, and thats, not to die.

Now, just because you have no memory of when in the womb or when breaking the amniotic fluid while in the womb, doesnt mean your memory isnt stored in your spirit man aka ruach that upon after drawing the last breath, returns back to God with all that information safely intact and incorruptibly stored.

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

That is your interpretation. And I see what you did with Gehenna. What version of Bible says Gehenna

alphaNomega:
A being powerful enough to be immortal should have no problems with memory no matter its form or function.

You are not immortal.

You need to drop this memory argument. Memory has nothing to do with mortality or immortality. Please bring up another argument and I promise to answer you

alphaNomega:
A being powerful enough to be immortal should have no problems with memory no matter its form or function.

You are not immortal.

first immortality has nothing to do with power. Matter is immortal but most matter is dormant. Immortality is not a measure of power nor is the ability to remember. The most powerful men do not necessarily have greater memory.
If memory is your only argument against immortality then I think you need rethink it

alphaNomega:
Memory is perfectly in line with this immortality argument.

OP said we are immortal beings trapped in our human bodies temporarily.

My questions are simple and straightforward. Why don't you have any memory of your immorality before you were "trapped"?

You even agree that even as newborns, we have no memories of our birth. An immortal being will definitely have total recall of memories no matter how many lifeforms it has adopted over the course of its existence, so why is your own different?

Stop lying to yourselves.
you missed the point, If we don't have memory of our time as babies then it's unrealistic to expect the memory of a more distant time. Do you get it now?

Wake up and smell the coffee.

You are not immortal and you have only this life to live, don't spend your time dreaming of an afterlife that never exists.

First lack of memory of an event does not mean it did not happen. Also, if you understand the loss of memory of our infant experience, then it would be unfair to expect the memory of a much distant period.

I don't remember my last dream. Does that mean that I did not dream?

cornelboy:
Yeah i will soon. Sorry boss.

Now I am putting you under pressure.

Dtruthspeaker:
It was great to see you run out of questions after I had settled them all such that you have nothing left therefore, i am free to depart!

Enjoy the rest of your day brother. One love