₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
What you don't understand is there are more than 41,000 religious groups claiming followers of Jesus. What each group teaches is the doctrine of their own Jesus!
Before America declared FREEDOM OF SPEECH, EXPRESSION and WORSHIP the Catholic Church and few Protestant Churches won't allow others say anything about Jesus. They feel others will fabricate things in the name of their Jesus so there was no FREEDOM OF WORSHIP, you must adhere to whatever those few Churches agree upon.
Thanks to America! Today you could have called intolerant fanatics to come after JWs for saying what you feel (your) Jesus never said!
Guy, hold unto whatever your own Jesus say and don't bother about what our own say because as i've told you from the onset Our Jesus is not the same as your Jesus so don't expect JWs to hold unto what you think your own Jesus say.
Leave us with our own Jesus!

I understand you very well. What I don't understand is your own Jesus. Does he speak to you from the bible or do you have other records. Because you seem to teach doctrines that are outside the bible.
And thanks to America, today you worship freely as a JW without any persecution

MaxInDHouse:
Go suit yourself my friend, JWs is a unique group that's different from all of you!

Some of your teachings are cool but until Jesus Christ clearly states 'No more war' and yes that day would come. But dont speak for Jesus ok

MaxInDHouse:
Go suit yourself my friend, JWs is a unique group that's different from all of you!

I agree you are unique.
There are thousands of other unique Christian groups.
My only point is, if the bible does not teach something, don't claim it does. I have no problem if you said it was your personal doctrine. Don't just use the bible as your excuse

MaxInDHouse:
Your friend is fighting his own conscience now after seeing how identical the ACT of Christians in the first century and JWs is when it comes to sticking to Jesus' order whether it favours them or not {Matthew 16:25} he felt like calling the whole world to come and join you in condemning Jesus' counsel.
Well it's really pathetic that he's just getting to know the difference between those who are walking by FAITH and those walking by signt through the religious section on Nairaland! 2Corinthians 5:7
I pray that he is able to overcome his doubts and fears and come to join the one and only true Christian Organization JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!

Sorry I did not reply to most of your remarks. I was overburdened with work.
I noticed something with every single scripture you used in backing your point.
No single verse in the bible preaches against war. No single verse declared that it is sinful to partake in war. Every single commandment of God is spelled out. We do not guess. If God is against war, he would have spelled it out
Not one in the old or new testament. Let's look at some of the verses you quoted.
Isaiah 2.4 was a prophecy not a commandment.

He will render judgment among the nations
And set matters straight* respecting many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.+
Nation will not lift up sword against nation.

The day is not yet come.. it speaks of the day where all nations would be at peace.
So this verse was not relevant to the topic.

Matthew 26.52
Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”
Obviously your understanding of this is wrong because at many times in scripture God has commanded his people to lift the sword.
Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Elijah, Abraham. All these men are in heaven. None of them perished by the sword. God does not lie so it's better to agree that you misinterpreted the scripture than to suggest that Christ was wrong.
Jesus Christ was aware that his disciples had swords while with him. He had seen their sword even before Peter cut the man's ear off. So it's obvious that his message was not to discard the sword.

John 17.16
Jesus commanded his disciples not to be part of the world.
Well, you decided that it meant politics. That is your personal interpretation. Anyone could decide it means anything. For I believe Christ was talking about the ways of the world, corruption, immorality, dishonesty and so forth, not politics.

John 13.34,35
Talks about love one another.
I believe if we love another, then fighting for the rights and life's of other's is worth it.
True God so loved the world but at many times, he destroyed the oppressors and freed the captive. Let us follow the example of our God.
Jeremiah 30:8

‘It shall come about on that day,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves
As we follow the example of Jesus Christ, we would fight for the captive.

Now is God against war?
The answer is No.
There was a war in heaven and God has led and declared many wars on earth. He is the mighty man in battle.

Now why didn't Christ defend himself when the enemy came for him?
Ans. He was the lamb slain before the foundations of the world. Before this world was created, it was already concluded that Christ would die for you and I.
You also asked why the Christians never fought the Romans?
We actually don't know if they did or not. There wasn't much record of their lifes. We also remember that God in his wisdom allows his people to suffer for a time. That we follow Christ doesn't mean life on earth would be without its challenges.
Jesus Christ did not come to build a Christian army or a Christian nation.
He repeatedly said my kingdom is not of this world.
As Christians, we belong to a heavenly kingdom while in this world, we all have our different nations.
Christ never rejected Jewish citizenship. He obeyed and honored the laws in his day.
Now instead of bending the verses in the bible, I challenge you to show any verse where Christians were expressly commanded not to partake in wars.

On the lighter side, you give lots of examples with the nigerian army.
We all know that our army are a bunch of corrupt, lazy and cowardly folks not the best example out there. We have many valiant forces out there. Just not in nigeria.

To help those just joining the thread, this is where we currently are.
Some of our JW friends have given us their beliefs about war and citizenship.
Below is my surmary. Please you can correct it or add to it.
. It is better to flee than save a life if doing it may lead to the death of the criminal
2. You can enjoy the best of your country, hold a national passport join the civil service but you really don't give a damn about your country.
3. As children of God you have no business stopping oppression, terror or evil. It's up to the sinners to do all that. But we can enjoy the peace that they bring.
4. Even in self defense and defence of your family the only weapon you are allowed to use is you fist. Any thing stronger than your fist would be a sin.
5. You can't use a rod on your enemy but you can use it on your child. (Spare the rod and spoil the child)
6. All those who have served and participated in making the world and there nitions a better place for us all are sinners if they did it through force. Eg the fight against slave trade

DappaD:
It can be very easy to quote Romans 13:1 when you would like to justify anything that has to do with the government.

Jehovah demands we give complete devotion/allegiance to him alone.
Exodus 34:14, Colossians 3:23
What happens when you try to divide it between God and something else? Would God be pleased? 1Corinthians 10:20-22

That’s why Jesus struck a balance between obeying God and obeying the human authorities. Matthew 22:21

For Jehovah’s sake, we should be submissive to every form of authority and governments[1Peter 2:13, Titus 3:1] but not when their rules run contrary to God’s will and commands.

For instance, in Jerusalem, a decree was passed by the authorities that the Christians should cease their preaching and teaching activity, but what was the response of those Christians to the authorities despite being submissive to them?
Read Acts 5:28-29
Who should they obey now, their Lord & Master Jesus[Matthew 24:14, 28:19-20; Acts 1:8] or the authorities?

Boss I have already gone pass this with one of your members jus read up and connect to the thread so we don't be going back and forth.
Please don't be offended but it's hard for me if I would have to be going up and down to address both old and new issues.

MaxInDHouse:
Controversial shey?
I hear you Sir!

Swearing allegiance to a country means you believe in that certain part of the earth and the people living there as your number one priority!

The scripture is clear on this, when Jesus said FLEE what he meant is your salvation is not tied to any physical nation on a specific location geographically, your salvation is based on what binds you and God's people together as one family! Luke 21:20-24
So Christians don't need swearing allegiance to any country! John 4:21-24
Paul was telling the Roman soldier that he is a law abiding citizen of Rome he has done nothing worth been chained. That's the meaning of what you're quoting Sir!

You're so obsessed with this your killing and rape stuff!
You can choose to do whatever you like but a wise person will call the attention of others to verify if such is permissible, if it's tolerated a Christian will leave such a place but if not then the people will apprehend the culprit and hand him/her over to the authorities! If you kill someone no matter the reason you give, in the court of law you're a murderer either of the first, second or third grade under the human law. But under God's law whatever makes you kill means you're disobedient to Jesus {Matthew 5:43-48} that's why he said "you must be as cunning as Serpent and HARMLESS AS DOVE" {Matthew 10:16}
What you don't know is how much people of the world hate true Christians {Matthew 5:11-12} if the world prefer Barabbas (a notorious armed robber and murderer) to Jesus, then his true followers need to be really really cautious in handling matters. Matthew 10:22-25
Because the world will testify against you that the culprit was a noble gentleman to spite a Christian who has always proved to be different from them. That's when you will realize that what you've done doesn't impress them to change the hatred they have against Christianity!

So guy use your brains as a Christian, the world hates you! John 15:19

Now let's summarize the JW political Manifesto
1. It is better to flee than save a life if doing it may lead to the death of the criminal
2. You can enjoy the best of your country, hold a national passport join the civil service but you really don't give a damn about your country.
3. As children of God you have no business stopping oppression, terror or evil. It's up to the sinners to do all that. But we can enjoy the peace that they bring.
4. Even in self defense and defence of your family the only weapon you are allowed to use is you fist. Any thing stronger than your fist would be a sin.
5. You can't use a rod on your enemy but you can use it on your child. (Spare the rod and spoil the child)
6. All those who have served and participated in making the world and there nitions a better place for us all are sinners if they did it through force. Eg the fight against slave trade.

MaxInDHouse:
Controversial shey?
I hear you Sir!

Swearing allegiance to a country means you believe in that certain part of the earth and the people living there as your number one priority!

The scripture is clear on this, when Jesus said FLEE what he meant is your salvation is not tied to any physical nation on a specific location geographically, your salvation is based on what binds you and God's people together as one family! Luke 21:20-24
So Christians don't need swearing allegiance to any country! John 4:21-24
Paul was telling the Roman soldier that he is a law abiding citizen of Rome he has done nothing worth been chained. That's the meaning of what you're quoting Sir!

You're so obsessed with this your killing and rape stuff!
You can choose to do whatever you like but a wise person will call the attention of others to verify if such is permissible, if it's tolerated a Christian will leave such a place but if not then the people will apprehend the culprit and hand him/her over to the authorities! If you kill someone no matter the reason you give, in the court of law you're a murderer either of the first, second or third grade under the human law. But under God's law whatever makes you kill means you're disobedient to Jesus {Matthew 5:43-48} that's why he said "you must be as cunning as Serpent and HARMLESS AS DOVE" {Matthew 10:16}
What you don't know is how much people of the world hate true Christians {John 15:19} if the world prefer Barabbas (a notorious armed robber and murderer) to Jesus, then his true followers need to be really really cautious in handling matters. Because the world will testify against you that the culprit was a noble gentleman to spite a Christian who has always proved to be different from them. That's when you will realize that what you've done doesn't impress them to change the hatred they have against Christianity!

So guy use your brains as a Christian, the world hates you!

Again, you have chosen to go controversial. What makes you a citizen of a country.
Paul wanted to be treated like a roman so he remained the soliders who he was. He associated with his citizenship for the benefits it brings.
As citizens come benefits and expectations.
Again you are very wrong even in nigerian law if you can argue self defense you are not wrong same with must countries.
And who told you that the world hates you?
Different sects have been persecuted at different times. The Muslims in China are one of the most persecuted groups today.
In facthe thanks to good government, the JW are free of persecution in most parts of the world just like other Christians.

MaxInDHouse:
Of course we claim citizenship in any country we live as law abiding citizens but we don't pledge allegiance to any geographical location on this planet, gone are those days when JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES pledges allegiance to Jerusalem but today we worship JEHOVAH in spirit and truth! John 4:21-24



Continue QUOTING and QUOTING and QUOTING, the Bible belongs to Jehovah's Witnesses if we don't teach you the practical application of what is written in our book, you can never make any impact on those claiming worshipers of your God!

If you pledge allegiance to any geographical location on this planet how do you reconcile such allegiance with the LOVE Jesus commanded you to have for your fellow believers in other geographical location on the same planet? John 13:34-35

Humble yourselves before Jesus' Spiritual brothers (anointed Christians lead by Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses) and be saved otherwise you will deceive yourselves to destruction! Matthew 25:31-46

Boss I believe most of you statements are controversial and they cancel out previous statements you have made.
You claim to be citizens of a country you have zero allegiance to.
You ask how can you love other if you have allegiance to your country. Well I have allegiance to my country still I love and show love to others.
Loving your country does not make you hate the world. Currently I live outside nigeria. I do not go about hating the people here
That would even be un-Nigerian
You say you want to teach me. I am open to your teachings but I can't just accept a controversial teaching.
Paul expected some privileges because of his roman citizenship that means he understood roman allegiance.
And I don't quote scriptures for nothing, I do it so that I am not speaking with my own authority.
Again what does allegiance to your country mean? It simply means to recognize and obey the laws of your country.
Now let someone ask, if you see me killing or raping a woman, would you just flee as you as the bible teaches us, even if you don't know the victim. Or would you do all you can to save the victim even if it means hurting me or killing me?

achorladey:
Perhaps ask him during the initial stage of Corona virus lockdown in the month of May/June 2020 when the threat of some boys filled Lagos and Ogun environs. Were JWs outside as well keeping watch as vigilantes or not? That will tell if they do defend the community they live in. I know in reality they pay money to the community for NIGHT GUARDS or SECURITY. All join

Na person wey no gree open eyes no go no sey they are involved in politics. They don't have to accept though.

No matter how much laws they enact or policies they apply, they can't predict every situation and that is where the problem lies in the policies the organization imposed on its members. Members then fall under the mercy of those leading them in each congregation whom are sometimes not knowledgeable enough to understand and interpret those policies which are subjected to politics and politricks.

A scripture comes to my mind
Acts 15:10
King James Version
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear.
When a religion begins to over burden it's followers with laws and commandments, when we begin to add newas laws that are not required, we miss the mark.
Not one verse on the bible commands the people of God not to be part of an army or not to fight for there nation.
Not one verse commands us not to sing anthems.
I wonder what JW members fill as nationality in bank forms and other documents.
Paul was a Roman citizen and he enjoyed the rights as such. He did not reject his Roman citizenship because he became born again.
Act.22.25-29

. 25 But when they had stretched him out for the whipping, Paul said to the army officer standing there: “Is it lawful for you to scourge a Roman* who has not been condemned?”*+ 26 Well, when the army officer heard this, he went to the military commander and reported it, saying: “What are you intending to do? For this man is a Roman.” 27 So the military commander approached and said to him: “Tell me, are you a Roman?” He said: “Yes.” 28 The military commander responded: “I purchased these rights as a citizen for a large sum of money.” Paul said: “But I have them by birth.”+
29 Immediately, therefore, the men who were about to interrogate him under torture backed away from him; and the military commander became afraid when he realized that he was a Roman and that he had bound him in chains.+

achorladey:
This is at best dishonesty

This is at best if I may add POLITICAL? They won't accept. When one remember what the NYSC OATH FORM entails you will understand the politics they play with the government they RESIDE

According to JWs, Jehovah is not a PACIFIST

Jesus is not a PACIFIST

JWs are no PACIFIST.

The equation becomes simple from your research why they subscribe to self defense up to the extent of making the attacker UNCONSCIOUS or returning to his senses .

So far I believe our JW friends shold demand more answers from their religion
And same with the rest of us.
It's great that they try to defend so of the teaches but at a time it get difficult.
How can I be allowed to defend myself but I can't defend my community.
I am not allowed to to sing the anthem but I can carry a nigerian ID
What amazes me is giving love as an excuse for indifference.
If you truly love the people around you, would you be comfortable having criminals all around? Would you be happy to flee while you community is being ravaged?
They even have laws against self defense with a weapon. You can defend with your hand but not a weapon?
So if I see a rapist attack a lady, I can confront him with my hands but the moment I pick a stick or a knife, I become a sinner.
And a time these commandments get too many that it becomes hard to keeput up.

MaxInDHouse:
There's nothing like strongest army before JEHOVAH of armies the God of Israel!
The command is "FLEE from dominators" i was expecting you to lay emphasis on that topic but you're bent on faulting Jesus' order that's why i kept you where you belong!

For your information the other to FLEE has to do with Politicians who wants to dominate but will not tolerate Christianity, as long as any government doesn't rule against us we are OK with such a government. The truth is some governments will make life easier for their people due to policies and some will make life unbearable for their citizens due to the same factor. But whatever the situation of any country real JWs (born again) will sell their comfort for the sake of those who are living there. Luke 18:18-23

Of all those who ruled this country let me shock you by telling you that the one and only man who saw favour in the eyes of our own God is Ibrahim Badamosi Babangida!

Well that's another topic, he is not a JW neither was he ready to join JWs, but due to being a subscriber of our AWAKE! Magazine IBB fought for God's people in the year 1984/85 when the then military government started persecuting God's people. If you know that time you will recall that both Muhammad Buhari and Babatunde Idiagbon issued an order that any Nigerian who can't recite the national anthem should be sacked from public offices and children that will not recite the national anthem or pledge should be sent out of school.
Well JEHOVAH wasn't against their government but for them to stop God's work going on the world's most populous black nation, NO! JEHOVAH will not allow that so he picked up IBB to overturn that government, and that was the end of the persecution!

JWs will not vote, will not participate in politics yet JEHOVAH our God will raise up one man in the midst of Politicians to fight for the freedom of his people. Isaiah 44:28

So we have no nationality as worshipers of JEHOVAH, it's anywhere we find ourselves that we make our home! Psalms 24:1




You amuse me each time you lay emphasis on self defense!
I was a military officer, i know that there is a great different between self defense and military service. self defense means the struggle to break free and run while military officers fights to conquer the attacking force

Guy this is my own field so you can't misconstrue self defense for military service, it's either you bow to Jesus' order or you reject it!

FAITH is about what we are expecting which our actions provide valid proof that it's rooted in our hearts even when you can't see it yet {Hebrew 11:1} don't worry yourself my guy it's not a possession of all Dick and Harry! 2Thessalonians 3:2

Jesus Christ did not come to remove the reality of human life.
Yes he performs miracle but that is just what they are, miracles

In life's realities, stronger armies win and the command to flee is common sense.
Now as a solider, you very well know that your primary responsibility is to defend your country.
My point remains that thereally is not much difference between someone who can kill in self defense and someone who kills in defence ofor others e.g soliders defending us from Boko haram.
If you religion allows you to defend yourself then the very same argument can be made for one defending his nation.
You gave me many scriptures that talk about love. Defending those you love is an act of love.
Since you religion is content with others fighting your battles for you like IBB did I don't see you problem with war
Again you decision not to fight or be part of any nation are not commandments from God. Not one verse of scripture highlights such.
When Paul was jailed, he remained his jailers of his roman citizenship. He did not disown his citizenship.
And I find it hypocritical that you people attend NYSC meant for nigerian citizens.
You guys seem to be choosing what you can and cannot do.
You can defend yourself but you can't defend your nation. You can serve NYSC but can't sing the national anthem.
You can obtain a national passport yet you are not Nigerians. This is at best dishonesty.

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus object to the highlighted by telling his own followers to FLEE (RUN) instead of fighting back.

Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed decades after Jesus' assenssion to heaven, he never asked his followers to DEFEND THEIR NATION otherwise Romans can't destroy Jerusalem and God's Temple if Christians joins Jewish zealots to defend their Homeland with the support of God's Holy Spirit!

I purposely said it's OK because it's obvious you don't see any sense in Jesus' commad, i was once a soldier and when a soldier is talking about wars, causes of wars and how to lay down weapons for dialogue let people who know NOTHING about wars learn from our experience.

Jesus is the commander in chief of all the heavenly armies, his order as given to his earthly subjects is "drop all weapons and FLEE from oppressors"

But if you feel that's stupid, please suit yourself, JWs will stick to the counsel of the world's most wonderful counselor of all times Jesus of Nazareth

May you have PEACE!

Of course the roman army was the strongest in the world. It's basic advice. You don't need Jesus to teach you how to retreat from a supirior force.
And if you are honest about the command to flee then the idea of self defense or defending a family member under attack lacks merit. You can't do both. Just choose one.
I don't have a problem if you are against war and violence, every sane person hates war but when it comes to self defense and protecting others that's a different things. At least your religion believes in self defense that's why I keep saying that the only difference is your political opinion and nothing spiritual.

SilverNorGold:
Sahara Reporters and its quest to tear Nigeria apart! I will never trust anything that has it as a source! Read the title and the content, you'll notice there's something sinister someone is trying to achieve...

Anyway, Miyetti Allah's call for the arrest of that terrorist shouldn't be tribalised as that's EXACTLY what Nigerians want. Sunday Igboho is a terrorist and should be treated as one... Anyone who supports his action is an enemy of Nigeria and should be dealt with as well!

Shekau, Nnamdi Kanu and Sunday Igboho deserve the Bin Laden's treatment! So I don't understand why the SW media platforms are trying to portray Sunday Igboho as an activist.. That's tribalism taken too far! But that's their business. Cos that bastard will be jailed and NOTHING WILL HAPPEN!

Nonsense!

Chief take it easy. If you truly love nigeria as you claim, how many times have you condemned the fulani herdsmen for the killings the commit.
You are silent when herdsmen kill but now people are beginning to react, you are uncomfortable?
They might arrest Sunday or even kill him but that would solve the fulani problem

MaxInDHouse:
It's OK Sir!

When God's counsel is for us to obey the law of the land. He knows the laws are not perfect. But he also knows that society can't function without these laws.
Overtime, men have learnt, laws have evolved and the world is now a better and safer place than ever before.
We Christians should be subject to the laws in our society.
Also one of the most noble things to do is to fight to defend others lifes. We can't always seat on the fence.
Blessed are the peacemakers, many times, to make peace you have to be strong.
People fought to end slave trade. People have fought to end genocides. People are fighting to end terror.
True we all are waiting for Christ to come and solve all human problems but while some choose to wait and do nothing, others strive to improve the world and make it a better place by putting down oppression and breaking the yokes of wickedness. The fight for freedom is the way of the Lord.
It's all about choice.

weyreypey:
It is rude to take the picture of a dead man like this. It is utterly disrespectful.

It doesn't even matter at death there is no shame. We feel nothing. It is better to respect the living. The dead simply don't care

MaxInDHouse:
We can defend with the intention of escape not to inflict injury on wrongdoers or outrightly kill them, it's worldly thinking that makes you feel they deserve such not Godly wisdom! 1Timothy 2:4

This is actually what most sane people from all religions believe in. The main goal of self defense is safty then if you can you apprehend the criminal so that he does not continue to spread his evil if the bad guy dies in the process, no one would blame you.
You don't need to be JW or even to read the Bible to know this. The world has become a very civilized and wonderful place.
More and more nations are eradicatin capital punishment.
The world is becoming much more peaceful than ever because great men and nations stood up against oppressing nations and people.
War has always been the last option in the civilized world.
So like I said you are no different from almost everybody.

MaxInDHouse:
You have heard JWs side on how to apply Jesus' wonderful counsel, so it's either you join us to continue taking in up to date information on what we are to do or leave and go get a better opinion else where.
You are only on the same page with us if you continue taking up to date counsel with us, not hinging on the few things you've heard about us.
That's why majority hate JWs, they just feel since they've heard few things that pleases them and they're ok with it then they're the same as JWs NO! NO!! NO!!!
Your friend knew all of these but what's making people like him criticize JWs is our up to date directions on how to handle cases. They feel we must not change whatever we concluded on whereas the scene of this world is changing {1Corinthians 7:31} so we are not stagnant in our views on matters.
Whenever the GB brings in new directives all true members of JWs globally work hard to comply, that's what makes us BROTHERS and SISTERS in the same FAITH not just few things and thinking you're on the same page with JWs!

I don't criticize your stands on war but like I said it's actually what most people and nations believe.
From what I read, you guys would only fight for what you deem a good cause same for other people and nations.
The only difference is you wouldn't fight in defence of your country.

MaxInDHouse:
Funny you!

A former military intelligence agent don't know what rapists or serial killer means abi?

Just say Jesus' orders don't make sense to you because i hate rapists much more than you when i was in the army but today JWs have beaten my feeling to the extent that i now feel pity for evildoers. Romans 12:20-21

WHY?
Because they will perish and due to love that's built in my heart for everyone now i'm working hard to help them NOT TO JUDGE THEM! Matthew 7:1-2

Have you ever had sex with a lady to whom you're not married before?
Well according to God's word you should be dead by now you and the lady for having casual sex without marriage in view.

Rapists are to be forced to marry victims according to God's law God never asked Israelites to kill a rapist, it's a killer that God asked them to kill not a rapist.

So Jesus asked us to have pity on everyone as in EVERYONE because even when they kill you for obeying Jesus you will be resurrected {Matthew 16:25} but unbelievers will be forgotten, so we are to help them to gain everlasting life NOT TO JUDGE THEM!

Since you refused to answer me directly, I ran my personal research.
You guys are not at all different from any of us. We all believe in defending what we love and believe.
The only difference is you guys political stands
So I would post a bit of my research.
Please let me know if it is correct ok.
w68 6/1 p. 347-348
The Christian’s View of Self-Defense

IN A world so filled with crime and violence, the protection of one’s life and property is a matter of increasing concern.

This problem confronts everyone, including you. If you are one of Jehovah’s witnesses you also have to contend with an additional problem in this regard: the opposition that comes as a result of your faithfulness to Jehovah God.

To determine how to handle matters connected with self-defense, the Christian, dedicated to do the will of Jehovah, goes to the highest source of wisdom, God’s Word. Through a study of the Bible, he is aided to appreciate the laws and principles by which he is to be guided.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.

Does this mean that the Christian is to pay back wound for wound, blow for blow, as mentioned in the Law that God gave to ancient Israel, since that is in the Bible? (Ex. 21:24, 25) No, for Christians are not under that Law. After Jesus Christ died, that Law arrangement came to an end. It was succeeded by something better, the Christian system of things. The apostle Paul showed that Jesus is “the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, . . . he has made the former one obsolete.” (Heb. 8:6, 13) Paul also said: “You are not under law but under undeserved kindness.” (Rom. 6:14) Of course, where a Christian requirement has the same underlying principle as a requirement of the Law, then it can be helpful to note also how that particular matter was handled then.

“LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”

Jesus said: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matt. 22:39) As a person is to love his neighbor, he is also to love himself. That means he ought to take care of his mind and body. The Christian, therefore, should not needlessly jeopardize his life, for that would bring no honor to God. Since a Christian has dedicated his life to do God’s will, he is to protect it so he can serve his Creator.—Rom. 12:1.

Jesus did not give up his life needlessly. On one occasion, those listening to him “became filled with anger; and they rose up and hurried him outside the city, and they led him to the brow of the mountain . . . in order to throw him down headlong.” Did Jesus try to get away? Yes, he did! The account tells us: “But he went through the midst of them and continued on his way.” In the turmoil, Jesus was able to get away to safety.—Luke 4:28-30.

The apostle Paul likewise loved his life and protected it. He fled from dangerous situations many times. (Acts 9:23-25; 14:5, 6) Even when he was taken into custody by the authorities, he worked for his release by appealing to Caesar.—Acts 25:11.

The principle involved in these examples was given by Jesus when he said: “When they persecute you in one city, flee to another.” (Matt. 10:23) Thus, it is the Christian course to try to avoid difficulty, when possible. Then the problem of how to defend one’s person will not arise.

AVOIDING DIFFICULTY

Even when there is not persecution because of one’s faith, the same general principle applies. For example, you may live in a city that undergoes rioting or other disorders. What are you to do? You can choose to flee the danger. How? It may not always be possible to leave the area, but you can retire to a safe place indoors and stay there until the danger has passed. As Proverbs 26:17 says: “As one grabbing hold of the ears of a dog is anyone passing by that is becoming furious at the quarrel that is not his.” A person who heeds this advice does not get involved in the disturbances of this wicked system of things. He does not get near them even out of curiosity, but avoids them whenever possible. This serves as a protection to him.

Similarly, it is wise to seek to avoid being drawn into a situation where you may have to defend your person. For instance, you may meet a belligerent person on the street, when using public transportation, or perhaps even at your place of work. The principle to follow when confronted by such hostile person is: Do not add fuel to the fire. “Where there is no wood the fire goes out.” (Prov. 26:20) Instead, “an answer, when mild, turns away rage.” (Prov. 15:1) By talking in a kind, mild tone you may be able to turn away the wrath of the aroused person and avoid difficulty.

And if such mild answering does not quell the other person’s antagonism, then what? Proverbs 17:14 answers: “Before the quarrel has burst forth, take your leave.” Thus, as in the case of fleeing persecution when it is possible, the Christian way is to get away from unreasonable persons to avoid difficulty whenever possible.

This avoiding of difficulty also means not taking unnecessary risks when traveling. Be cautious in dangerous neighborhoods, particularly at night. You might even change your secular occupation if it endangers your life by making it necessary to come home late through dangerous areas. Thus application of Christian principles can help you avoid difficulty.

WHEN PERSONALLY CONFRONTED

However, there are times when difficulty cannot be avoided. For example, even in daylight hours you may be accosted by a robber who has a weapon. What can you do? You might try to reason with the robber, perhaps identifying yourself as a Christian minister, if you are one of Jehovah’s witnesses. Many times this has resulted in Christians’ being left alone and safe.

But what if that will not suffice, and the accoster is determined to get some money at all costs? Ask yourself: Which is more important, my money or my life? Can I continue to serve Jehovah without the money I may have in my wallet or purse? Can I continue to serve Jehovah without my life? The answer is obvious. Life is far more valuable. Hence, it is extremely unwise to endanger your life just for money. And since many robbers today will not hesitate to use violence if the victim resists, it is the course of practical wisdom to let them have the money.

This same thought holds true if a thief enters your home. If he has a weapon, you may have no opportunity to call the police for assistance. The thief may be after money or other material items only. Resistance could end up in injury or death for many members of the family, so it would be unwise to resort to what some might consider “heroics” to defend material things. The safety of yourself and your loved ones comes first.

But what if you are accosted by a violent person, one who begins to attack you? Then reasoning and peacefully handing over material possessions may no longer be enough. In this extreme situation the Christian is justified in protecting himself. If unable to get away, or if in his own home, he can ward off blows and defend himself, doing what he can to restrain the attacker. Of course, if there are several, or many attackers, even this defense may prove unsuccessful.

True, a blow struck in self-defense might injure the assailant. But if it resulted in killing the attacker, this should not be intentional. A Christian who might thus accidentally kill his assailant should recognize the seriousness of what has happened. Realizing that he may bear bloodguilt for what has happened, even though it was unintentional, he ought to go humbly to God in prayer to seek his forgiveness through Christ Jesus.

What can be done if your family or spiritual brothers and sisters come under physical attack in your presence? You could undertake resistance as much as possible if there were no other means of assistance available. Such may bring your life in danger, but as Jesus said: “No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends.” (John 15:13) It might prove practical, depending upon the circumstances, to go for help instead of trying to handle the situation alone. If there is a large group attacking one’s family or Christian brothers, the wise course may be to get police help if that is available. So the course to follow depends upon the circumstances. And even the same situation may be handled in different ways by different ones. Each person will have to decide the best course to take depending upon what he knows of the situation at the moment.

ATTEMPTED RAPE

If you are a Christian woman, what should you do if, in spite of all precautions, you are set upon by a rapist? If you cannot deter him by reasoning, or by calling upon the name of Jehovah, then what? As a Christian you are under obligation to resist. This resistance includes screaming and creating as much disturbance as possible to try to frighten off the attacker and attract help. If the attack continues and you cannot break free to flee, then you would be justified even to inflict damage on your assailant if necessary. Resistance is imperative, because the rapist is after, not just money, but your virtue. An issue of integrity to Jehovah’s laws is involved here. So by no means would it be proper quietly to submit to rape, as that would be consenting to fornication.—1 Thess. 4:3.

MaxInDHouse:
Verse two of Romans 13 must be applied with wisdom. The world government is in the hands of Satan the devil {Luke 4:6} Jesus did not object to Satan's claim rather Jesus confirmed it that Satan is in control of the world's government {John 14:30} the same Apostle Paul also said Satan is the God of this world {2Corinthians 4:4} so if we are to apply Romans 13:2 with Godly wisdom we shouldn't conclude that God is the one who chose those in charge of Satan's worldly authorities, instead what Paul meant is those people are there due to permission from God as some people must be there to continue managing the affairs of this system until God's Kingdom come. Note what Daniel 2:44 says God's appointed King (Jesus) is coming to DESTROY all of them of course Jesus Christ can't come to destroy his father's work if it's to be implied the way you're insinuating!

Self defense differs from killing one's enemies!
The best way God's son asked us to handle such issue is FLEE (RUN) away from bullies {Matthew 10:23} and he led by example! Luke 4:29-30; John 8:59, 10:39

A Christian may choose to defend himself against bullies but it's unchristian to think of killing in the course of defence.

I was a soldier, for your information the weapons we carry wasn't meant to kill according to our ethics but to force the opposition to surrender, once an opposition surrenders his weapons it's against the ethics of the army globally to aim at such a person. That's why those who killed the End Sars protesters are under probation by the world's court order. Otherwise the Nigerian Army supposed to be killing Boko Haram members at sight whether they're ready to surrender or not!

Here again, you spoke in favour of self defense. Please where do you stand

MaxInDHouse:
I put in few points that you may not ponder over before thinking of how to respond.

Authority has to do with majority and weapons, so if it's just one or two persons with weapons and you have the opportunity to overpower them (as in you outnumbered them) of course you can stop them and take away the weapons, then hand them over to the appropriate authorities.
But once you're outnumbered and they're with weapons then they've formed another authority on their own so we must obey instructions from them!
Take note of what Jesus told Peter @ Matthew 26:52, they are more than Jesus and his disciples and they're with weapons!

Here it was ok to engage the bad guys but you seemed to be making a u turn in tour arguments.
Are you saying it is ok to engage with a rapist or to leave him to the act. Please can you be a little clear because right now we are not understanding your stand.

MaxInDHouse:
God permitted them to be there just as he did with Pharaoh in Egypt, the statement "God hardened his heart" simply means permission to continue living. If God wants to use his power like humans would do he could just seize the lungs Pharaoh was using to breathe.
So God permitted them doesn't mean he approve useless, hopeless and worthless human government!

I have told you what we believe but if you're not OK with that you can follow your own heart like your friend. Rapists don't go about carrying weapons to scare away people all because they just want to have sex, Use your brains at least the weapons can be used to rob, get enough money and go for prostitutes that will satisfy their sexual urges!

First I believe you know nothing about rapist and that is actually a good thing. You don't have such experience. But you could read to find out how many serial killers were rapist.
And I must say, you have a unique and interesting interpretation of scripture.
The modern Christian is very good at interpretin scriptures to suit him even when those scriptures have already clear meanings.

MaxInDHouse:
If Christians can kill in defense then why all the persecution and killing leading to the death of Christians in the first century?
Do you think God supports them to kill in defense and they were killed on daily basis in Jerusalem back then?

You either take it or leave it my friend, true Christians must not kill that's why Jesus said we must not think of weapons as means of settling differences {Matthew 26:52} otherwise nothing could send the first century Christians away from their Homeland!

But you earlier said killing in self defense is allowed by your church.
And the Christians in the 1st were a weak force and a minority just like 2nd world war jews.
Are you no longer in support of killing in self-defense?
And you would now let you wife to be raped because you don't want to offend the rapist. Or you would possible turn the other cheek?

achorladey:
You begin to wonder why Max keeping using not going to war as something special to JWs alone [/b]whereas in reality there are many other [b]Christian denominations like that as well.

The threat of DISASSOCIATION or DISFELLOWSHIPPING is what makes them avoid politics but by nature they are political only they refused to accept.

I would respect any organization that is totally against violence of all kinds. Personally I believe that wars are justified.
But if you can shed blood in self defense then saying you don't fight was is just being political.
Again I respect people's political views but politics is politics and scripture is scripture.

achorladey:
Now you see the viewpoint of Max correctly.

He was just going round in circles rather than go straight to the point that JWs can equally SELF DEFENSE themselves under certain circumstances and even if such self defense leads to death, it is a justifiable cause.


The reason I cited the material is to cut his circling short and see what they believe about self defense.

If they can also she'd blood in defence then the rest is political.
They are free to hold any political believe they want but that's just what it is , politics

achorladey:
@ Tcwork

This will help you understand them again. The question is are JWs PACIFIST? The images and the links will help you find the answers.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1951080

Please explain or send me a direct link. I am finding it hard to read here

achorladey:
@ Tcwork let me give you a material on their stand on self defense as captured in one of their magazines............

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102008204

The summary of all this is that you are not against self defense or defense of family.
You could shed blood in the process.
You basically are not different from the rest of us. Only that you refuse to be political.
In the light of that was it right for the rest of the world to come in defence of Jews, polish and many others from the evil grasp of Hitlers Germany?
Was it wrong to stop the invading Japanese and bring peace to the world again?

MaxInDHouse:
Verse two of Romans 13 must be applied with wisdom. The world government is in the hands of Satan the devil {Luke 4:6} Jesus did not object to Satan's claim rather Jesus confirmed it that Satan is in control of the world's government {John 14:30} the same Apostle Paul also said Satan is the God of this world {2Corinthians 4:4} so if we are to apply Romans 13:2 with Godly wisdom we shouldn't conclude that God is the one who chose those in charge of Satan's worldly authorities, instead what Paul meant is those people are there due to permission from God as some people must be there to continue managing the affairs of this system until God's Kingdom come. Note what Daniel 2:44 says God's appointed King (Jesus) is coming to DESTROY all of them of course Jesus Christ can't come to destroy his father's work if it's to be implied the way you're insinuating!

Self defense differs from killing one's enemies!
The best way God's son asked us to handle such issue is FLEE (RUN) away from bullies {Matthew 10:23} and he led by example! Luke 4:29-30; John 8:59, 10:39

A Christian may choose to defend himself against bullies but it's unchristian to think of killing in the course of defence.

I was a soldier, for your information the weapons we carry wasn't meant to kill according to our ethics but to force the opposition to surrender, once an opposition surrenders his weapons it's against the ethics of the army globally to aim at such a person. That's why those who killed the End Sars protesters are under probation by the world's court order. Otherwise the Nigerian Army supposed to be killing Boko Haram members at sight whether they're ready to surrender or not!

So if I may get you, you are saying that you are allowed to defend yourself and your family physically as long as you do not she'd blood? So I am a JW member, I come home to find someone raping my wife, he is armed, you are saying that the bible teaches that I should flee so that I don't get to hurt him or she'd his blood right?
Again you are not clear with Romans 13.1
Are you saying that God permits them or not.
The very last statement in Romans 13.1 says
the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.
How do you understand this statement.

MaxInDHouse:
God intervene when those in authority will not allow his people to worship him, as long as they don't disturb pure worship God leave them to continue with their nonsense and ingredients as they await destruction!

Is that your interpretation of the 2 verses? Also let me add, if your son is been bullied by his mates on the street, would you advise him to defend himself if he can? It would be cool if you give us the JW position on self defense and defence of family and loved ones

MaxInDHouse:
I put in few points that you may not ponder over before thinking of how to respond.

Authority has to do with majority and weapons, so if it's just one or two persons with weapons and you have the opportunity to overpower them (as in you outnumbered them) of course you can stop them and take away the weapons, then hand them over to the appropriate authorities.
But once you're outnumbered and they're with weapons then they've formed another authority on their own so we must obey instructions from them!
Take note of what Jesus told Peter @ Matthew 26:52, they are more than Jesus and his disciples and they're with weapons!

So if I may get you, you areally not really against taking arms to defend yourself or family all you are against is government right? And again your interpretation of Christ's words in Matthew 26.52 is to go to war only when you can outnumber the enemy?

MaxInDHouse:
Satan is the brain behind world Politics and Government! Luke 4:6; John 14:30, 18:36; 2Corinthians 4:4; 1John 5:19

So whatever order they give us we must obey with exception of just one we must not take side with any of them! Because taking side will make me kill my Christian brother for the sake of keeping one of Satan's agents in power!

As long as they want to issue orders we must allow them to settle the issue of who is in control within themselves and when they're through with their struggle for dominance Jehovah's servants today are to listen and take instructions from whoever Jehovah allows to dominate amongst Satan's agents! Romans 13:1-2

When thieves comes to you, weapons in their hands is a symbol of authority from Satan but if you're able to call the other carriers of weapons who have established themselves as rulers over you, you're indirectly asking them to settle their differences {Romans 13:3-4} because both the thief and the Politician are after the same thing to dominate you for their own gain {Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9} so don't be carried away with cheap philosophical theories of the world!

Please explain
Daniel 2.21
21 He changes times and seasons,+
Removes kings and sets up kings,+
Gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those with discernment.+
Romans 13.1
Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,+ for there is no authority except by God;+ the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

MaxInDHouse:
I was waiting patiently for you to take the questions from your friend and throw at me, because there are readymade answers in God's word for all questions. Luke 12:12 compared to Isaiah 54:17
Since you seems carried away with his worldly thinking i'll give you our own reasons for dropping all weapons!


Before the Advent of Christianity worshipers of Jehovah takes to instructions regarding warfare as Jehovah issues it, they did just so!
There was a times Jehovah asked them to wait and see what he will do to his enemies, there are times he instructed them to line up and blow trumpet, there are times he said only 300 men is enough for him to destroy more than ten thousand, there was a time he sent just one angel to destroy over 185000 soldiers overnight!

But all that was before the time when his name has not been declared globally has the one and only true God. Today people throughout the globe are claiming worshipers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that's why Jesus told his own followers never to use weapons in the settlement of disputes {Matthew 26:52} because if you do then you're making yourself an instrument in the hand of the destroyer (Satan the devil) he has been the evil genius behind all the disputes throughout the world right from inception, God only stood behind his own true worshipers whenever Satan's agents comes for them.

©But today there's no enemy that deserve to die! Matthew 5:43-48
©Our enemy deserve to be preached to and taught for salvation! 1Timothy 2:4
©God will destroy all those who allowed themselves to be used by Satan! Daniel 2:44
©Jesus is God's only begotten son whose orders we must keep strictly! John 3:16
©Whoever pick up weapons with the intention of protecting his life (save himself) is disobeying Jesus! Matthew 16:25, 26:52; John 11:25
©Satan is controlling people to exterminate one another! Revelations 6:3-4
©Jesus is the Prince of Peace {Isaiah 9:6} all his true followers today have settled their own differences without the use of force or weapons! Micah 4:1-3
©There are no more physical enemies against whom we are to raise up physical weapons now! Ephesians 6:12

May you have PEACE!

Before I go to the scriptures, let me ask you some questions to better understand your war stands.
Are you telling me that if you find an enemy about to destroy your family and you are in position to kill him, you would do nothing?
Is that the stand of JW?
So I read all the scriptures you wrote, the only one that remotely commands against weapons is Matthew 26.52 so that is the only verse I would hold on to as we futter discuss. The rest have not much to do with the present topic.
Now to understand your religion better, are you telling me that if armed robbers and rapist attack your family and you are in position to physically do something, you would let them carry on? Is that the JW teaching.
Because if that is your doctrine it would be very hard for either of us to understand each other and going further wouldn't make much sense. But then if you are allowed to defend your loved ones then I could as more questions and share more bible verses.