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Food › Re: Titus Sardine Now ₦1,000 Under Tinubu’s Government (picture) by TenQ: 12:20pm On Aug 06, 2024

Philipponzaghi:
Nonsense post.

Titus Sardine price is just a reflection of global trends, not solely Tinubu's doing. Let’s focus on the bigger picture and support our leaders instead of spreading negativity.

No sir!

The prie is the product of the massive devaluation of the Naira against the Dollar and the Euro and GBP and every major currency in the world.

Note:
Even the dollar is getting weaker by the years

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 11:57am On Aug 06, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
I see you don't get the point.

When something burns is it consumed?
Using charcoal, wood or gas stove are these fuels consumed?

The question is was the bush actually burning?

Your question is ridiculously naive.
When someone is thrown into the Fire of Hell, why doesnt he die?

You seem to forget that the Creator of everything can command to forbid the power of consumption of a Fire?
Are you saying that Allah cannot forbid a fire from burning someone?
It seems you have never read Quran 21:69

The Bush wasn't Burning Because God forbid the fire from consuming the bush as He was in the Fire as the one known as "The Angel of the Lord". YHWH often comes down in the Old Testament as a MAN or as an ANGEL known as the Angel of the Lord BECAUSE The Angel SPEAK AS GOD and not FOR GOD as an ordinary Angel.
Did God appear to Abraham as a Man in the Bible?
Exactly like that with the personage of "The Angel of the Lord"

Genesis 16:7–14. The angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. The angel speaks as God himself in the first person, and in verse 13 Hagar identifies "the LORD that spoke to her" as "The God Who sees".
Genesis 22:11–15. The angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and refers to himself as God in the first person.
Exodus 3:2–4. The angel of the Lord appears to Moses in a flame in verse 2, and God speaks to Moses from the flame in verse 4, both instances referring to himself in the first person, the text conflates the two as one.
Numbers 22:22–38. The angel of the Lord meets the prophet Balaam on the road. In verse 38, Balaam identifies the angel who spoke to him as God.
Judges 2:1–3. The angel of the Lord appears to Israel.
Judges 6:11–23. The angel of the Lord appears to Gideon, and in verse 22 Gideon fears for his life because he has seen the angel of the Lord face to face, which is similar to when others in the Tanakh (Old Testament) fear they will die because they have seen God.
Judges 13:3–22. The angel of the Lord appears to Manoah and his wife and, in verse 16, tells them to offer to the LORD if they are to make an offering ("And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah [...] if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.". Later Manoah thought he and his wife will die for they "have seen God"
Zechariah 1:12. The angel of the Lord pleads with the Lord to have mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah.
Zechariah 3:4. The angel of the Lord takes away the sin of the high priest Joshua.

Note: YHWH can enter His Creations without ceasing to be God.

Now will you answer my Questions that you escaped answering (and the same kind of response you give is how I will use to respond to your further question)
Question:
Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?
2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?

Ohyoudidnt:
Then we need some clarity was it God or an angel or God through the angel that spoke to Moses at the burning bush according to the Bible?
Exodus 3:4
When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”

(Also is the lord different from God?)

God was the One in the Fire appearing as a personage called "The Angel of the LORD" by Moses.
LORD in capital letters is literally YHWH
Thus LORD is not different from God

3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?

Ohyoudidnt:
Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now the Angel appears in the flame out of the midst of the bush yet God called to him from within the bush.

Is it the Angel or God in the bush that spoke to Moses?

Who exactly says
Exodus 3:
5 Do not come any closer, God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.

6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Remember Exodus 3:2 says the Angel appears to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush.

Or is this a case of Jacob wrestling with God or an angel in Genesis 32:22-32?

Is Angel equal to God?

Exegesis or Hadith may vary on the elucidation of a Quran verse but does the verse itself vary?

You are repeating the Question.
A normal Angel is NOT God BUT God can take the form of an Angel and He would remain GOD!
The personage called the Angel of the LORD is God appearing in the form of an Angel. The Angel does not speak like a normal Angel but speaks in FIRST PERSON as God.

Question:
According to
Sahih al-Bukhari 7439
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)."
....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.

Question
4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah ?
5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?
6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?

I have answered you questions with enough verses from the Old Testament for you to confirm even though you did not answer mine.
NOW,
I have put my major questions in RED so that you wouldn't claim not to see them!

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 7:41pm On Aug 05, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
Is it a lie that people view Awolowo as the actual winner of the election as Ojukwu is on record to have said Awolowo is the best president Nigeria never had?

I don't dispute that. I only said that one can logically defeat anyone who insists and is repeatedly saying that Obafemi Awolowo was a President of Nigeria at any time by bringing EVIDENCES and using LOGICAL inferences.

This was what I did with you.

Ohyoudidnt:
The absolute truth of the Quran is above the Hadith.

No one disputes that with you Muslims. However, Allah says you should also obey Mohammed.
Moreover, these are your books you claim just like the Qur'an that it has reliable ISNAD and you have selected the Sahih hadits to narrate.

Ohyoudidnt:
- The Quran represents God's final message to humanity without error or contradiction.
- While Hadith enriches understanding and practice within Islam, it remains subordinate to the teachings found in the Quran.

Scholars assess Hadith based on their chains of narration (isnad) and content (matn). Thus, not all Hadith carry equal weight or authority.

Any opinion derived from Hadith must align with what is stated in the Quran. If there is a conflict between a particular Hadith and a clear verse from the Quran, the latter takes priority.

The Quran is useless without the Hadiths and the Tafsirs.
The Qur'an is a bundle of contradictions, errors and Allah gives commands that is unbefitting for YHWH God of Israel: this is why the Qur'an cannot be the word of God.

Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?

Ohyoudidnt:
How can you depend on what is not absolutely correct to arrive at a truthful decision?

In the words of my brother from Syria the hadith is a often a tool of deception derived by the satans and unbelievers to corrupt the actual directive of Allah.

It is a common tool in your hands or are your questions not derived mainly from the hadith?

It seems you are becoming a Qur'an only Muslim.
Don't forget that your religion consists of obeying Allah AND Mohammed.

Ohyoudidnt:
When Moses saw a burning bush was the bush actually burning?
You obviously do not understand the language you think your God communicates with you through.

LOL: According to the Bible, the Fire was Burning but the Bush was not consumed by the fire. This was what attracted Moses to this bush

Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 12:46pm On Aug 05, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
It truly is my undoing to try to discuss with you as the lengths you go to push down your false version of the truth is beyond measure.

Obafemu Awolowo of blessed memory did not win the presidential election however the results were reached.

Awolowo had challenged the declaration of Shagari as president saying although Shagari had the highest votes, winning in 12 states did not meet the requirement of two third of 19 states which ought to have been rounded up to 13 as a state could not be fractionalized.

The Supreme Court however upheld Chief Richard Akinjide’s submission that since Shagari had two third of the votes cast in the 13th state, which was Kano, his 12 two third majority votes was enough for him to be declared the winner.
Shehu Shagari scored 5,688,857 votes to Obafemi Awolowo score of 4,916,651, in total.

In finality whoever had the highest votes was declared winner. This is far different from the case of MKO Abiola where the election was annulled. Was there an official declaration of the results by then NEC?

This exercise you just did shows that one can LOGICALLY arrive at the truth by following REASON and making deductions out of these reasons.

It is irrelevant if I repeat 1000 times that Obafemi Awolowo was the president of Nigeria if I cannot disprove the points you itemized.

Unfortunately, this is what you are doing.
You desperately want the standard islamic narrative to be true that you are willing NOT to apply LOGIC and SENSE to the glaring EVIDENCES presented to you.

Ohyoudidnt:
Mr Falsehood and misleading attributes of Allah. You have now shifted from forcing your concept of the holy spirit attribute of Allah? Why so desperate?

The Quran is not considered an attribute of Allah in the same way His divine attributes are described. The Quran is the literal word of Allah revealed to the Prophet Muhammad through Jibree. It is a manifestation of Allah's speech and wisdom, a guidance for humanity, and a source of light and mercy. Were previous books like the Torah given to Moses not like this?

While the Quran is not an attribute of Allah in the theological sense, it is a divine revelation that reflects the beauty, perfection, and wisdom of Allah. Muslims hold the Quran in the highest esteem and consider it the ultimate source of guidance and truth. The Quran is to be recited, understood, and implemented in the lives of believers to attain closeness to Allah and success in this world and the Hereafter.

You now appear to confuse Al-Lawh al-Mahfuz, often translated as the Preserved Tablet which is a significant concept in Islamic theology. It refers to a celestial tablet that contains the divine decrees and knowledge of all that has happened and will happen until the Day of Judgment.

Is it restricted to recording only things that are termed good that have happened? Was the flood of Noah, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah the community of Lot essentially a good thing? Is it in the record or not?

Is your notion that
1. The Qur'an is not eternal
And
2. The Qur'an is not an attribute of Allah
And
3. The Qur'an is created

This is to help you because it seems you don't know your religion

1. The Qur'an is eternal
Sahih Muslim 2655: “The Qur'an was with Allah before the creation of the heavens and the earth.”

2. Quran is an attribute of Allah
Ibn Qudamah in "al-Mughni": Discusses the Qur'an as an eternal attribute of Allah.
Islamic Creed (Aqidah): Many theological works affirm that the Qur'an is an attribute of Allah, consistent with the belief that Allah’s attributes are eternal.

3. The Qur'an is uncreated

Sahih al-Bukhari 6988: “The Qur'an is the speech of Allah, which is not created.”

Is this Quote untrue?

Ohyoudidnt:
The concept of al-Lawh al-Mahfuz extends beyond just a record of events; it also includes the divine revelations given to prophets throughout history.

Did Jesus permit certain things to the Israelites that were previously forbidden? Something to consider is working on the sabath day, eating with gentiles/sinners, restriction on food. I may not agree with everything stated in your Bible.

When Jesus or any prophet interpret the law, he does not delete the old law. He only updates the law.

Is it untrue that Islamic abrogation involves
1. Deleting verses from the Qur'an but not in ruling (e.g. Stoning of Adulterers)
2. Deleting verses from the Qur'an and in ruling (e.g. Breastfeeding of Adults)
2. Abrogation without deletion (eg. The verse on Mutah)

Ohyoudidnt:
I will not bother with your twisted understanding of the Quran verses as you wriggle and misinterpret too much. Reread the verses you presented perhaps you presented them in error.

Someone insistent in attributes of God not changing should first address the difference in the concept of God from the old to the new testament especially worshipping another instead of him.

The concept of God in the Old Testament is centered around the idea of a single, all-powerful, and all-knowing deity who created the universe and governs it.

While the Old Testament portrays God as a single, all-powerful deity, the New Testament presents a more complex and nuanced understanding of God, with a focus on the person of Jesus Christ. The worship of Jesus as God is a central theme in the New Testament, and has significant implications for Christian theology and practice.

See where significant changes in attributes occur?

I conclude it is all a huge joke to you. Keep laughing.

I presume you are pained just because the LOGIC of Islam has failed you.
FYI:
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH sometimes appeared as a physical Being
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH is a Spirit
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH is the Father in heaven

There is no difference between the Old Testament description of God AND the New Testament for YHWH is ONE except that this nature of God is given a nomenclature by Christians as Trinity.

All these you flee from answering questions that betray the LIES you chose to believe?

If you are pained, I will allow you to escape and nurse your wounds: after all, the TRUTH sometimes hurt.

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 8:05am On Aug 05, 2024

Repeating your preferred narrative doesn't change anything my friend: Fault the logic and arrive at a different conclusion from mine.

If I repeat from now till eternity that Obafemi Awolowo was a President of the Federal republic of Nigeria does not make it true UNLESS I can fault correctly the opposing LOGIC!

It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.

Ohyoudidnt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsrSQeoJdso?si=aCbfhM6IiZ7pFl9T

Obviously you didn't watch 1.10-1.16 or thereabout here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKUWyDrqvQ?si=AYC84NetkeBMk-Tr

It's a new week. Get on with it.

AGAIN HERE IS THE LOGICAL PROOF

If I get you correctly, your claim is that Allah caused some of the verses of the Qur'an to be forgotten by abrogation.

BUT, this is LOGICALLY fallacious: why?
Let me show you!

Premise of Logic:
1. The Qur'an is eternal as an attribute of Allah
2. The Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise
3. Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims
4. Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an. Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45

Is any of these claims of Islam above wrong or false?

Inference from Premise
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, non of the verses can be abrogated from the text.
Note: the principle of abrogation is incompatible with the concept of the Qur'an being eternal.
2. If the Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise AND the Qur'an is eternal, then non of the verses can be abrogated from its text.
3. If Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and it was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims BUT some verses were forgotten , then the Qur'an of Mohammed is not identical to Kitab Allah in paradise.
Note: the preservation of the Qur'an involves both memorization and written texts, and discrepancies between these might impact the claim of exact replication.
4. If Allah guarantees that Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an according to Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45 then no verse of the Qur'an can be forgotten except the Qur'an contradicted itself

Logical Conclusions:
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, and if the Qur'an of Muhammad is indeed an exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise, and if Muhammad could not forget the Qur'an, then it follows that no verses should be lost or abrogated.
2. If some verses are reported as forgotten or abrogated, it would suggest inconsistencies either in the understanding of eternal preservation or in the process of transmission, contradicting the claim of the Qur'an being an exact and eternal copy of the Kitab Allah.

Tell me Truthfully:
Which of the eternal attributes of Allah change with time?

It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 5:35am On Aug 05, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
Quran 2.106-107 Maududi - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an
This is the answer to an objection which the Jews raised to create doubts in the minds of the Muslims. They argued like this: The Qur'an says that the former Scriptures had been sent down by Allah and that it also has been sent down by Him. If it is so, why does the Qur'an then give such commands as differ from those contained in the former Books'? How can the same Allah give different commands at different times? Besides, they said, "The Qur'an asserts that the Jews and the Christians have forgotten a part of the teachings sent down to them. How is it possible that the teachings of Allah could be obliterated from memory?" They did not raise these objections for the sake of arriving at the truth but for the sake of creating mischief. Allah answers their objections thus: "I am the Sovereign and My powers are unlimited. I can repeal any order of Mine or allow it to be forgotten, but I substitute for it something that serves the same purpose better or at least equally well."

Ibn Kathir
.......

Ibn Jarir then said, "Although Allah directed His statement indicating His greatness towards His Prophet, He also rejected the lies of the Jews who denied that the rulings of the Torah could undergo abrogation.

The Jews also denied the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad, because of their dislike for what they brought from Allah, such as changing some rulings of the Torah, as Allah commanded.

Allah thus proclaimed to the Jews that He owns the heavens and earth and also all authority in them. Further, the subjects in Allah's kingdom are His creation, and they are required to hear and obey His commands and prohibitions. Allah has full authority to command the creation as He wills, forbidding them from what He wills, abrogate what He wills, uphold what He wills, and decide whatever commandments and prohibitions He wills.''
Ibn Kathir) say that the Jews' dismissal of the occurrence of the abrogation is only a case of their disbelief and rebellion. The sound mind does not deny that there could be a abrogation in Allah's commandments, for He decides what He wills, just as He does what He wills.

Further, abrogation occurred in previous Books and Law. For instance, Allah allowed Adam to marry his daughters to his sons and then later forbade this practice. Allah also allowed Nuh to eat from all kinds of animals after they left the ark, then prohibited eating some types of foods. Further, marrying two sisters to one man was allowed for Israel and his children, but Allah prohibited this practice later in the Torah. Allah commanded Abraham to slaughter his son, then repealed that command before it was implemented. Also, Allah commanded the Children of Israel to kill those who worshipped the calf and then repealed that command, so that the Children of Israel were not all exterminated (I know your Bible has a horrid difference which appears partial in sparing Aaron though our view of this differs in Islam).

There are many other instances that the Jews admit have occurred, yet they ignore them. Also, it is a well-known fact that their Books foretold about Muhammad and contained the command to follow him. These texts, in their Books, indicate that the Jews were required to follow the Prophet Muhammad and that no good deed would be accepted from them, unless it conformed to Muhammad's Law. The Prophet brought another Book, - the Qur'an -, which is the last revelation from Allah.

You shared something where the Jews tried to hide the punishment of death to the fornicator by covering it until a Jewish companion of Muhammad pbuh exposed them?

Does Quran 24:2 As for female and male fornicators, give each of them one hundred lashes,and do not let pity for them make you lenient in ˹enforcing˺ the law of Allah, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a number of believers witness their punishment.

not abolish what is said in the Torah/Talmud followed by the Jews on stoning to death the fornicator?

In any case it has been another wasteful encounter with you. Hop on to your next thrill

If I get you correctly, your claim is that Allah caused some of the verses of the Qur'an to be forgotten by abrogation.

BUT, this is LOGICALLY fallacious: why?
Let me show you!

Premise of Logic:
1. The Qur'an is eternal as an attribute of Allah
2. The Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise
3. Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims
4. Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an. Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45

Is any of these claims of Islam above wrong or false?

Inference from Premise
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, non of the verses can be abrogated from the text.
Note: the principle of abrogation is incompatible with the concept of the Qur'an being eternal.
2. If the Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise AND the Qur'an is eternal, then non of the verses can be abrogated from its text.
3. If Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and it was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims BUT some verses were forgotten , then the Qur'an of Mohammed is not identical to Kitab Allah in paradise.
Note: the preservation of the Qur'an involves both memorization and written texts, and discrepancies between these might impact the claim of exact replication.
4. If Allah guarantees that Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an according to Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45 then no verse of the Qur'an can be forgotten except the Qur'an contradicted itself

Logical Conclusions:
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, and if the Qur'an of Muhammad is indeed an exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise, and if Muhammad could not forget the Qur'an, then it follows that no verses should be lost or abrogated.
2. If some verses are reported as forgotten or abrogated, it would suggest inconsistencies either in the understanding of eternal preservation or in the process of transmission, contradicting the claim of the Qur'an being an exact and eternal copy of the Kitab Allah.

Tell me Truthfully:
Which of the eternal attributes of Allah change with time?

It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 10:43pm On Aug 04, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
Now you reveal the truth.

In context based on your videos which both fail to show literature backing of the preservation of the Quran to diacritical marks you cannot discern that as was the case that led to the documentation of there are now millions of Muslims all over the world that have memorized the Quran be it Hafs, Warsh or any other depending on the part of the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKUWyDrqvQ?si=QBvca7xm6aPE5NdH

This is unlike when the followers of Islam were relatively few and dying off through conflict before Abu Bakr's and later Uthnan's call for standardisation to unify the recitation.

Is the Quran of Shia different from Sunni or Ahmadiyah? No.

Can you say same for the Catholic and Anglican Bible? Perhaps you will say only the new testament matters.

Did you ever come across Dr Asma Hilali's view that questioned Sana'a manuscript was a school exercise? I don't think so.

Of course you are ignorant of the fact that Ubay taught many students including Abu Bakr and Umar who gathered around him to read the Quran in the best way and to understand it.

He read the Quran and Zayd bin Thabit wrote it. He has an exceptional place in the history of Islam thanks to this service.

Share some of your vast knowledge and clarify if Uthmans standardisation of the Quran occurred before or after the death of Ubay ibn Ka'b?

You already have the answers you choose to agree with. Indeed your intentions are always mischief centered. Glad you come clean now for all to see.

1. Is it a wrong notion that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved, word for word up to the diacritical marks?
Yes or No!
2. If you cannot answer my questions because it betrays the imperfections of the Qur'an, nothing else matters. Evidence abound that the Qur'an is not perfectly preserved. But you don't care. Who is fooling who?

I asked you

Is this hadith fabricated or weak

Sahih al-Bukhari 4481
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)

Verses were left out of the Qur'an yet Muslims say that it is still preserved word for word, up to it's diacritical marks.

Is this not self delusion?

Where is the verse of Rajam in the Qur'an of Hafs you use

Sahih al-Bukhari 6830
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was `Abdur Rahman bin `Auf.....
Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed......

The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and the verse on Rajam was deleted!?
SMH!

Conclusion of Muslims: The Qur'an was perfectly preserved, word for word, up to it's diacritical marks even though evidences around that verses were excluded and verses somehow disappeared from it.
This is the greatest self delusion that could befall a person because the Truth Never Matters.

Are you beyond help?

John 14:6-7:
"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from now on you know him, and have seen him."

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 5:37pm On Aug 04, 2024

Ken4Christ:
If only he knows the doom that awaits those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus, he will speedily come to Jesus. Well, we'll keep preaching the truth and also expose the deceit of false religion. Those who are ordained for eternal life will take warning and receive salvation. But the sons of perdition will continue in the wrong way.

They are hoping that somehow, Islam will lead them to paradise despite the big HOLES in their standard Islamic Narratives.
They think they can bribe God with showing that they pray hard and follow the Sunnah of Mohammed faithfully

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 5:35pm On Aug 04, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
You immediately review your questions? Why?

1. There are seven recognized Ahruf that encompass broader linguistic variations, while there are multiple Riwayat associated with each Qira’at, reflecting individual narrators’ methods.

You can place the 23 claimed different Quran in them.

2. Is all the Sana'a Quran different from the Quran in use? Of 926 just one with erased and corrected text is what you fail to prove different. You fail to acknowledge comments that are observed in it stated in the 17 mins video.

The archaeological findings, particularly the Ṣanaa 1 manuscript, reveal significant insights into the early textual traditions of the Qurʾān. The study suggests that the lower writing of the manuscript represents a non-ʿUt̠mānic textual tradition, distinct from the standardized version established by ʿUt̠mān. This lower text is indicative of the early state of the Qurʾān during the time of the Prophet Muhammad and the Companions, showing variations that likely arose from the aural transmission of the text.

The comparison indicates that the ʿUt̠mānic text type, which is the basis for the Qurʾān as it exists today, is generally more faithful to the original recitations of the Prophet than the C-1 tradition represented in the manuscript. However, the findings also highlight that variations among the different codices—like those in C-1 and the codex of Ibn Masʿūd—were not merely accidental but were likely shaped by the oral traditions of the time.

In conclusion, while the ʿUt̠mānic version is seen as preserving the Prophetic prototype more accurately, the archaeological evidence underscores the existence of multiple, contemporaneous textual traditions that enrich our understanding of the Qurʾān's early history and its transmission.

3. Was the Quran recollected or what had been previously collected unified and standardised?

4. My use or non use of Hafs Quran doesn't invalidate the authenticity of other types or is it said to be ejected anywhere?

5. The extra efforts of Zaid ibn Thabbit to ensure absolute truth in the compilation of the Quran is what you doubt? Was he involved in all the compilations? When and why did he get swayed to uphold falsehood?

6. Indeed Zaid didn't directly work with the said 4 reciters but did Ubay ibn Kab work with him during the Uthmani standardisation?

7. The Quran is preserved however the exaggerated claim you submit is not accurate as the Quran is first oral and the diacritical marks or even alphabets have evolved over time.

Name the scholars who you say talk on preservation to the diacritical marks where, when and pointers to verify this.

You wrote answers 1 through 7 (I assume for my questions) when non of your answers are related to my questions.

I will give you the first three to confirm if you are aware of what you did.

The Question
1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven?

Your response
There are seven recognized Ahruf that encompass broader linguistic variations, while there are multiple Riwayat associated with each Qira’at, reflecting individual narrators’ methods.

You can place the 23 claimed different Quran in them.

We expect that there is just ONE Kalam Allah in paradise. Is this wrong?

If there is one Kalam Allah which one of the seven dialects is the Kalam Allah?

Scholars have found over 36 different Arabic Qur'ans (far much more that the seven dialects you claim). Even then, till now, no Muslim has been able to tell us the name of the Qur'an sent to other tribes other than the Quraysh tribe.

Except what you are claiming is that 26 Kalam Allah are in paradise.

Question
2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses?
Lets assume that you tried your best here except that the logic doesn't add up.
How is any Muslim sure that a STUDENT wrote those verses in the Sana'a Quran?
Leather Patchments are expensive and thus would not be given to a beginner: slates are more appropriate for students.
Speculations is definitely NOT a proof

Your response

2. Is all the Sana'a Quran different from the Quran in use? Of 926 just one with erased and corrected text is what you fail to prove different. You fail to acknowledge comments that are observed in it stated in the 17 mins video.

The archaeological findings, particularly the Ṣanaa 1 manuscript, reveal significant insights into the early textual traditions of the Qurʾān. The study suggests that the lower writing of the manuscript represents a non-ʿUt̠mānic textual tradition, distinct from the standardized version established by ʿUt̠mān. This lower text is indicative of the early state of the Qurʾān during the time of the Prophet Muhammad and the Companions, showing variations that likely arose from the aural transmission of the text.

The comparison indicates that the ʿUt̠mānic text type, which is the basis for the Qurʾān as it exists today, is generally more faithful to the original recitations of the Prophet than the C-1 tradition represented in the manuscript. However, the findings also highlight that variations among the different codices—like those in C-1 and the codex of Ibn Masʿūd—were not merely accidental but were likely shaped by the oral traditions of the time.

In conclusion, while the ʿUt̠mānic version is seen as preserving the Prophetic prototype more accurately, the archaeological evidence underscores the existence of multiple, contemporaneous textual traditions that enrich our understanding of the Qurʾān's early history and its transmission.

Is it UNTRUE that your Youtuber acknowledged that there are differences within the first five minutes of his broadcast.
He then gave excuses that the errors were scribal error of a Qur'anic student.

The Question was: How is any Muslim sure that a STUDENT wrote those verses in the Sana'a Quran?

The Question:
3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran?
One of the LIES is that the Quran of Mohammed is perfectly Preserved word for word up to the diacritical marks!
Is this a true statement?

Your Response:

?

I didn't see anything related

Question 1 Second set
1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed?
2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed?
3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman?
Your response
3. Was the Quran recollected or what had been previously collected unified and standardised?

Question 1, 2 and 3 required just a YES or a NO answer. You response didn't answer any of the three questions.

The Qur'an was collected at least three different times: The first was in the lifetime of Mohammed, the second was the lifetime of Abubaker and the third was the lifetime of Uthman.
Challenge this and I will give you evidence for each

Question
4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman?

Your response
4. My use or non use of Hafs Quran doesn't invalidate the authenticity of other types or is it said to be ejected anywhere?

You seem not to get it. Let's assume that You have the manuscript of Uthman, why use the RECITATION of Hafs rather than the Manuscript of Uthman?

Question
5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid
a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23?
b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23?
Do you need evidence?

Your Response

I am still expecting your response

Question
6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an.
If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?

Your Response
6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an.
If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?

All I needed was anyone of Ibn Mas'ud, Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, and Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifah.

They were alive but we're not part of the committees of both Abubaker and Uthman

Is this hadith Maudi or Daif?
Sahih al-Bukhari 4481
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)

Question
7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks.
a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times?
b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman?
c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman?
d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters?
e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?

Your response

7. The Quran is preserved however the exaggerated claim you submit is not accurate as the Quran is first oral and the diacritical marks or even alphabets have evolved over time.

Name the scholars who you say talk on preservation to the diacritical marks where, when and pointers to verify this.

You will see that you totally escaped answering any of the questions

One of your modern scholars: Qur'an preserved word for word even up to the pronunciation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijGPLHISgho?si=SVcIY39f789R04PV

Here is Mohammed Hijab saying the word for word preservation before the two minutes mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVM5mYOQjIY?si=jLzD9Qo9gMCdcJqH

I could get you more but I wanted videos that are very short.

Of course the Hadith and your Old scholars disagree with you. The word for word Preservation statement is a fabrication by the modern scholars to deceive the modern Muslims.

We can end this about the Qur'an if you choose or properly respond to my specific questions.

Have a nice day

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 8:20am On Aug 04, 2024

AntiChristian:
Hollywood spirit revealed to you that I fled!

I no get your time!

Defender of Falsehood: You gat no shame!

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 8:19am On Aug 04, 2024

AntiChristian:
Almost everything you utter is a lie or close to it. I no get your time!

Okay, what is the TRUTH?

Is it that
The Quran is PERFECTLY Preserved , word for word up to the Diacritical Marks?
OR
The Quran is NOT PERFECTLY Preserved , word for word up to the Diacritical Marks?

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 8:16am On Aug 04, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
Originally when you opened this thread your questions are:

1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven?
2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses?
3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran?

The numerous pictures you attached are comparisons of what you allege to be the Sana'a Quran albeit what is claimed to have been regenerated from the erased and overwritten lower text isn t it?

Is this not what you say you're surprised I hadn't seen on the 22nd of July 2024?

My answers has centered on the Sana'a palimpsest and the Uthmani codec.

You can do research on your other questions
more so when the answers I have shared with you are not satisfactory to you.

If we still narrow down on these three Questions, you will see that you didn't address them

1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven?
We have so many Arabic Quran such as Hafs Qur'an
Warsh Qur'an
Qalun Qur'an
al-Duri Qur'an
al-Bazzi Qur'an
Qunbul Qur'an
al-Suri Qur'an
Ibn `Amir Qur'an
Hisham Qur'an
Ibn Dhakwan Qur'an
Khallad Qur'an
al-Kisa'i Qur'an
al-Duri Qur'an
Abu'l-Harith Qur'an
Ibn Wardan Qur'an
Ibn Jamaz Qur'an
Ya`qub al-Hashimi Qur'an
Ruways Qur'an
Rawh Qur'an
Khalaf al-Bazzar Qur'an
Ishaq Qur'an
Idris al-Haddad Qur'an
Khalaf Qur'an
Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven?

2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses?
Lets assume that you tried your best here except that the logic doesn't add up.
How is any Muslim sure that a STUDENT wrote those verses in the Sana'a Quran?
Leather Patchments are expensive and thus would not be given to a beginner: slates are more appropriate for students.
Speculations is definitely NOT a proof

3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran?
One of the LIES is that the Quran of Mohammed is perfectly Preserved word for word up to the diacritical marks!
Is this a true statement?

Answering the Questions below show us what the TRUTH is:
My Unanswered Questions
1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed?
2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed?
3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman?
4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman?
5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid
a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23?
b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23?
Do you need evidence?
6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an.
If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?
7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks.
a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times?
b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman?
c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman?
d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters?
e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?

So, my friend, Even if we narrow down to the Three Questions, you still have these questions to answer

ARE YOU AFRAID OF THE TRUTH?

Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 7:28am On Aug 04, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Funny churchian!

The word of Christ or the thoughts of your treacherous heart? Jeremiah 17:9

Jesus died for obedient not arrogant self-centered individuals like you that's what the scriptures means at John 3:16.
Jesus commissioned a group to work with him {Matthew 28:20} and taught them:
• What to preach. Matthew 10:7
• How to preach. Matthew 10:11-13
• The manner of approach to preaching. Matthew 10:16
You don't care about either of these three yet claiming Christ died for you.
Instead of discussing with people about what Jesus preached which is the Kingdom of God you focused on another religion always arguing on what is meaningless all the time. Titus 3:9

Ọmọ i've told you if you're not interested in the way Jesus commanded his disciples to go about the work there's no need mentioning me after all you've declared that you have the light so go and make use of your so called "light" while i do what Christ taught his disciples to do in the scriptures! John 15:6

LOL!

Body is Peppering you: LOL!
As a former soldier, you should know that your emotions have betrayed your inadequacy: body is peppering you all because I refuse to be brainwashed as you have been by the JW organisation!?

Abegi, go sleep or beat your drums : I DON'T CARE!

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 7:24am On Aug 04, 2024

Ken4Christ:
I hope AntiChristian is reading this article?

He fled long ago for he saw evidences that proved that the Quran has not been perfectly preserved up to its diacritical marks!

Ask him if it is true that the Quran has been perfectly preserved word for word up top the diacritical marks or not and see how he will dance about to escape

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 7:21am On Aug 04, 2024

AntiChristian:
Nothing to say against your lies!

I dey busy!

What is the LIE sir?

Don't forget that the claim of Islam is that the Quran is PERFECTLY Preserved up to the Diacritical Marks
I didn't make up the claim: are you saying that we should just accept this claim as TRUE?

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 7:18am On Aug 04, 2024

WHY ARE YOU AFRAID TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS:
Your youtube Video did NOT Address ANY of my Questions: do I not have the right to ask questions. Do you expect me to swallow everything you present without asking ANY Questions?

Unfortunately, the sources did NOT answer my questions: if it does, show me!
Except you want to escape, please answer my questions below

My Unanswered Questions
1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed?
2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed?
3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman?
4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman?
5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid
a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23?
b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23?
Do you need evidence?
6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an.
If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?
7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks.
a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times?
b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman?
c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman?
d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters?
e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?

Except All you are doing is to escape answering my questions.
You will admit that these your so-called sources doesn't address my questions.

If they do, kindly point them out to me.
However, if you want to Dodge these have your way.

Ohyoudidnt:
Do you know the difference between Hafs and Mushaf?

Yes I do.

Ohyoudidnt:
Logic employed are
1. Islamic tradition
2. Logic
3. Testimony of researchers.

When you teach a student, is it haram for the students to ask questions?

Ohyoudidnt:
You can find no sense in these methods as they don't align with you.
You now boldly claim or agree to be a non native arabic speaker or You now doubt the efficiency of your translations?
Enjoy your choice.

I have listened carefully to your presentations and I have some questions that should make me understand your position better.
Why are you now angry that I asked you questions.

Don't forget that the claim of Islam is that the Quran is PERFECTLY Preserved up to the Diacritical Marks
I didn't make up the claim: are you saying that we should just accept this claim as TRUE?

My Questions are fundamental!

Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 11:49pm On Aug 03, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Because of the words of Christ but i'm the one working with an organized group in doing what Christ established whereas you are just doing whatever pleases you claiming you are doing it for Christ.
Do you know what LAWLESSNESS means? Matthew 7:23

Sorry: I am speaking of Jesus Christ who died that I may live and not human beings in your headquarters.
The Words of Christ caused you anguish: I understand
SMH!!

It is the same way demons feel about the Words of Christ. Sorry!

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 10:20pm On Aug 03, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
You isolated 2 statements of mine and responded. Was your response to both statements or not?

Of course you didn't pay attention to the video to know where to find the resources used.

https://www.antishubohat.net/2020/12/09/gerdpuin-gregorschoeler

https://www.biblestudytools.com/joshua/24-29.html

Toby Lester, “What is the Koran? Atlantic Monthly, January, 1999

3 of 14 references they used or with your frequent reliance on YouTube you don't know where to find such information if it's listed?

Then watch this to answer your preservation questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pcenpnMVVE?si=57Qx97wtTs2TOtqx

I have gone through the ones I could and they didn't contain anything much different from what he had said. I'm sure you did not read all the sources too otherwise you would have known that I am not a native Arabic speaker.

Now that I've gone through the ones I could, none of them answered my questions.
Unfortunately, I queried the logic and arguments of the Youtuber and found them wanting.

Is it Not strange that the Youtuber admitted differences between the Sana'a Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an (due to student's error) only for two of them to retract their position to say that the Qur'an according to Sana'a is identical to the modern Qur'an?

Where they Threatened or Bribed or their retraction Forged? Were they blind in the first instance? No one external to them will know.

Unfortunately, the sources did NOT answer my questions: if it does, show me!
Except you want to escape, please answer my questions below

My Unanswered Questions
1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed?
2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed?
3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman?

4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman?

5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid
a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23?
b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23?

Do you need evidence?

6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an.
If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?

7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks.
a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times?
b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman?
c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman?
d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters?
e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?

Except All you are doing is to escape answering my questions.
You will admit that these your so-called sources doesn't address my questions.

If they do, kindly point them out to me.

However, if you want to Dodge these have your way.

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 7:25pm On Aug 03, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
In how many hours do you forget what you wrote?

I am unable to grant you response as your bias repeatedly makes you forget

Did you not ask if I Queried the RESOURCES used in making the video?

You must realise that This is impossible to do as I DO NOT have access to the materials or resources your YouTube host used.

This was why I said:
No, I didn't. I queried his logic and arguments and found them wanting.

Do you think it is possible for me to know the resources he used?
Do you know the resources he used?

Do you know the resources I use in conversations with you? No!
This is an impossible thing to do except I give you my library or collection of sources, I'm afraid, you can't

Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 7:18pm On Aug 03, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Continue boasting alone with nothing to show the world!

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ORGANIZATION is that tree planted that's producing the FRUIT of faith that's recorded in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4 and the person leading them is the Prince of Peace {Isaiah 9:6} that's why they are representing him as members of the house of faith under the Prince himself! Act 1:8

So stop deceiving yourself MaxInDhouse is not the one who you should look at but the organization of God.

I never engaged you in the first place so there is no reason greeting you!

You are angry because of the words of Christ!?

Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 6:29pm On Aug 03, 2024

Because you never read except what they force-feed you

John 15:1-11: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you. Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you: continue you in my love. If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken to you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."

This is what you saw:
If ~~a man~~ AN ORGANISATION abide not in me, he IT is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;

MaxInDHouse:
Mumu!
According to Jesus' illustration of the tree {John 15:1} is a single person the one producing the fruit or an organization?

Ọmọ i'm not talking about myself but God's organization is the tree producing the fruit that's mentioned in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4 repeated at Micah 4:1-3 that's why Jesus said the whole world is see the light {Matthew 5:14-16} so it's not MaxInDhouse but the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses!

Mat 5:22:
"But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Of cause, you don't believe there is any hell fire.

Please, go serve your white masters: your contribution for this month is below target and you haven't sold the number of JW magazine you should have this month.
I don't want you to blame TenQ for your failure.

Have a nice day!

Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 6:24pm On Aug 03, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
Good that you watched the video twice.

Did you query the resources used in making the video?

No, I didn't. I queried their logic and arguments and found them wanting

Ohyoudidnt:
1. When did the documented or written form of the Quran come into existence?

From the time of Mohammed.
1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed?
2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed?
3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman?

Ohyoudidnt:
What do you know about the history of written arabic and evolution of diacritical marks?

Yes!
Prior to the 8th century, most languages were written without vowels.
Arabic was initially written using a script that didn't include vowels or diacritical marks. This early script, used from the 4th to 6th centuries, was quite similar to other Semitic scripts. Diacritical marks began to be used from the 7th century

Ohyoudidnt:
Why will what was not in existence be preserved or how do you preserve what doesn't exist yet?

It's not possible to preserve that which doesn't exist

Ohyoudidnt:
a. It would not have been in doubt that there were verses missing if all your research and searches had brought one parchment with a bit of these missing verses. How do you ascertain something is missing without proof of it previously existing?

The normal logical thing is to use the ancient to confirm the recent. We can use the oldest Shakespeare to compare with the latest shakespeare and not the reverse

Ohyoudidnt:
b. Perhaps you should bring forth the missing verses from Uthmani codex that was present in previous codices.

You Muslims are the custodian of the Qur'an and it is you who should bring forth
1. The Qur'an of Mohammed
2. The Qur'an of Abubaker
3. The Qur'an of Uthman

Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans.

Maybe your scholars hid the originals so that they can give you a doctored version

Ohyoudidnt:
Don't say he destroyed all other codices as if he did where then do you get the one Sana'a palimpsest script that differs from this? The
Birmingham Manuscript and The Topkapi manuscripts and others?

Is the few pages of the Birmingham Qur'an identical to the modern Qur'an word for word, diacritical marks for diacritical marks?

Ohyoudidnt:
c. To what degree is Uthmani codex different from Abubakar's compilation?

One of the Differences between the Quran of Abubakr and the Quran of Uthman
Is it untrue that according to Zaid
a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but missing Qur'an 33:23
b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23

Do you need evidence.

Ohyoudidnt:
Uthmani acted to resolve growing differences by encouraging recognition of mutually agreeable style so you don't have cases of various volume and content of the religious book as is seen in the old testament cannon of certain groups.

This was what you were told

Ohyoudidnt:
d. Was the Quran you term that of Prophet Muhammad pbuh a written documented book?

What does this mean that the Qur'an was collected?

Didn't the Goat eat part of the Qur'an of Mohammed?

Ohyoudidnt:
Zaid ibn Thabit’s compilation efforts combined with the teachings from the four great reciters laid a strong foundation for how Muslims engage with the Quran today. Their contributions ensured that both accurate recitation and understanding were prioritized within Islamic education.

In qualifying a reciter of Quran do you think it was just mere ability to recall and vocalist?

No sir.
Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an.
If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?

Ohyoudidnt:
e. Now you push to your post that I deliberately ignore as it is not worthy use of my time. I cannot continue doing something that obviously brings no results.

Closed definition of one language by another fails to take in grammatical essence and nuance of tradition and culture.

Do you still marvel how things can be said differently yet have essentially the same meaning? Providing deeper concepts for reflection or you think words of God are just flippant statements that shouldn't be reflected upon

Get the actual meaning of what is said in the video you shared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSkzcocL1A0?si=l2duWWcx_h6Rw18u

حُسْناً refers broadly to goodness or beauty in various forms—moral character, aesthetic appeal, etc.
إِحْسَانًا, however, focuses on the quality of actions performed with excellence and sincerity.

The former denotes general goodness or beauty appreciated by individuals within their lives or communities, and the latter emphasizes an active pursuit of excellence in one’s deeds towards others as well as towards God. You see the dimensions?

Don't forget that the Old Testament of the Bible was written in Hebrew which is a Semitic language like Arabic. Yet we don't complain or whine about complexity of the language except if you can admit that Allah chose a wrong language for the Qur'an.

Ohyoudidnt:
Then:

Parchment, made from animal skin, is known for its strength and flexibility. It was widely used in medieval times for important documents and manuscripts, as it could withstand frequent handling and folding without tearing.

Papyrus, on the other hand, made from the fibrous inner part of the papyrus plant, is also highly durable and has been found in ancient Egyptian tombs with writing still intact.

Both parchment and papyrus have proven to be more resilient to the elements than wood, which can easily rot or decay over time.

I however am not up to further debate on this.
Enjoy your life and allow God be supreme.

Papyrus are of inferior quality that animal skill. Google would have baled you out of this error.

You can see how Truth doesn't have fear of answering ANY questions.

Will you now answer my questions?
Note:
1. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks.
a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times?
b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman?
c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman?
d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters?
e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?

The problem of Islam is LIES: too many lies that have to be supported by other Lies. On the day you embrace the Truth, you will become FREE!

Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 5:47pm On Aug 03, 2024

achorladey:
That's why everything goes around... Jehovah’s organization = GODS of men housed in USA = Governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses = God.

They don't know that it is just business for these men. The members are slaves that work free of charge for them

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Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 5:37pm On Aug 03, 2024

achorladey:
Wolves on Nairaland and numerous platforms that don't dance to the tune of their lies and manipulations.

Sheep when they go door to door to equally lie and manipulate people with their brand of good news

It's the same demons that work through them all. When you interact with them, you will easily notice it.

They serve their governing body rather than Christ and they have normalised it as equivalent.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 5:35pm On Aug 03, 2024

achorladey:
They were even boastful about having the correct gospel

Let the honest-hearted person compare the kind of preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom done by the religious systems of Christendom during all the centuries with that done by Jehovah's Witnesses since the end of World War I in 1918. They are not one and the same kind. That of Jehovah's Witnesses is really “gospel,” or “good news,” as of God's heavenly kingdom that was established by the enthronement of his Son Jesus Christ at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914. (The Watchtower 5/1/81, p.17)

Here it is again.......

That of Jehovah's Witnesses is really “gospel,” or “good news,” as of God's heavenly kingdom that was established by the enthronement of his Son Jesus Christ at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914. (The Watchtower 5/1/81, p.17)

So, the establishment of the JW organization is the Good News!?

But the prince of this world has blinded their eyes and gave them spiritual stupor on top.

We can only pray for them as most are lost cause!

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Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 5:32pm On Aug 03, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Who is justifying EVIL here?

You're claiming working with the Holy Spirit but against all organization claiming Christians. I am SUBMISSIVE to those taking the lead in the BODY of Christ just as the scriptures said! Hebrews 13:7, 17

Jesus said beware of wolves who comes to you in sheep's covering {Matthew 7:15} but you're leaving out why he said that such wolves "can't produce fine fruit" Matthew 7:16-18

Ọmọ can you present any organization of real Christians producing fine fruit?

Of course you can't because from your own standpoint there is no single organization that is not lead by wolves so each of you should go about doing whatever you like in the name of Jesus without following any organizational directions! 1Corinthians 14:33, 40

I've told you several times that there no way light and darkness can relate and you have asserted that you belong to the light why can't you just dey your dey and leave me nah?

You got no fruit other than to win proselytes for the JW organization.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 3:59pm On Aug 03, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Just as the first century Christians REPLACED the Holy Spirit with the heads of their organization by agreeing to send Barnabas and Paul to the Governing Body in Jerusalem over scriptural topic that could divide the organization! Act 15:1-2
But when the Governing Body in Jerusalem was responding said:

For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things" Act 15:28

Why couldn't the Holy Spirit speak to each individual in the congregation regarding the matter but only to those taking the lead among them so that they are the ones telling the rest of the organization globally what they agreed upon with the Holy Spirit? Hebrews 13:7, 17

Ọmọ i've told you to stop mentioning me since you and i aren't on the same page!

Justifying EVIL in the name of Christ: what do you expect?

Jesus says:
"Beware of Wolves who come to you in sheep skin"!

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Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 3:27pm On Aug 03, 2024

achorladey:
Looool! With same mode of operation for that matter.

achorladey:
His first comment on the resurrected dead thread is...

Of course today Christianity has been restored but it's unfortunate that the true God has given the true Christian organization another group name that made them stand out! Isaiah 65:15

Marketing his Jehovah's Witnesses as usual

Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 3:26pm On Aug 03, 2024

achorladey:
His first comment on the resurrected dead thread is...

Of course today Christianity has been restored but it's unfortunate that the true God has given the true Christian organization another group name that made them stand out! Isaiah 65:15

Marketing his Jehovah's Witnesses as usual

It doesn't dawn on them that they have replaced the Holy Spirit with the heads of their organisation that they lost the basic definition of the Gospel of Christ

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Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by TenQ(op): 3:20pm On Aug 03, 2024

My aim was to show you that your earliest Qur'an differ from your Hafs Qur'an and even your video agreed with me. He only had excuses that it was done by a student.

Ohyoudidnt:
Enjoy and understand that any manuscript variant that conflicts with Uthmanic and isn't corroborated by something found in the literature should be assumed to be a scribal mistake.

In the 1 case of the numerous sheets you should understand this was the work of a student.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZe_qREjNYI?si=CNkW9xaMq7SdosE7

Qasim6:
Thoroughly explained.

Hopefully He will learn and not keep regurgitating his nonsense assertion.

I watched this video two full times so as to get it's main thrust of argument and I was disappointed. Muslims love to lie and to hear lies.

The major argument is that the errors observed was because a STUDENT wrote the lower text of the Sana'a Qur'an.

Is this a factual Truth or a speculation that a student wrote this Qur'an?

For your information, students will write on wooden slates because both papyrus and animal skin parchments were expensive.
Papyrus is far much cheaper than animal skins but less durable. Only the rich could afford skin parchments and this is not what you'd give a student.

Note:
1. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks.
a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times.
b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman
c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman
d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters
e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 6:48am On Aug 03, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
I am well and You? Thanks for asking.

Not to prolong this thread you actually spur to end earlier the following just should be said.

The earth does not possess free will in the same way that mankind does. While humans can make moral choices impacting their lives and surroundings, the earth operates under God’s established laws without conscious decision-making capabilities.

From your scripture the earth operates according to physical laws established by God at creation (Genesis 1:1-31). These laws govern natural phenomena such as gravity, weather patterns, and geological processes.

I was reacting to your notion that the Kunfayakun of Allah is more of a the concept of God’s supreme creative power in Islam and an implied notion that it doesn't apply to creatures after creation .

Before we end this thread, can you please respond to these questions
1. Why is Islam the only divergent religion with respect to the Holy Spirit?
Note:
The Jews and Christians Believe that the Holy Spirit is God's presence that gives Power.
It is blasphemous to call God's Holy Spirit and angel.
2. Do you think Jesus is alluding that the Holy Spirit is Jibril in Mt 12:31-32:

Ohyoudidnt:
From a theological perspective, while humans have been given dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26-28) and are responsible for its stewardship, this does not equate to the earth having free will. Instead, it suggests that humans have a role in caring for creation within the parameters set by God.

Then Qadar (predestination) and free will are both important aspects of belief. Qadar refers to Allah's decree and knowledge of all events, both good and bad, before they happen. It is an essential part of our faith to understand that Allah is the ultimate Planner and Controller of all things.

On the other hand, free will refers to the ability of humans to make choices and decisions. Allah has granted us free will, allowing us to choose our actions and take responsibility for them. We have the freedom to make choices, but Allah, being All-Knowing and All-Powerful, already knows what choices we will make.

When it comes to reconciling Qadar and free will, it is important to recognize that our understanding is limited. Allah's knowledge is beyond our comprehension, and He knows our choices without interfering with our ability to make them. We are accountable for our actions and will be judged based on our intentions and deeds.

Islam teaches us to strive for what is good, make wise choices, and seek guidance.

Al-Qadr is a cardinal belief in Islam but Freewill is NOT because Both of them conflict.
Can you show me how Freewill can exist without Al-Qadr of Allah?
Because if freewill is within the encompass of Al-Qadr, then freewill doesn't exist.

The problem of Al-Qadr and Freewill is like locking a person up in a prison and telling him that he is free to go anywhere he wants in the country.
I can give you several Hadiths that support my claims if you want.

Nevertheless,
I think the discussion on the Al-Qadar and Freewill should be on a new thread!

Christianity Etc › Re: Islam And Christianity: Who Is More Tolerant? by TenQ: 6:20am On Aug 03, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Can you point to the highlighted in any of my posts that's numbering in thousands?

Of course i proved beyond reasonable doubt that only one group is practicing Christianity as they are able to achieve what God promised in the scriptures about the future of pure worship {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3; Zephaniah 3:9} which is to be championed by the Christ (Messiah) who is the Prince of Peace {Isaiah 9:6} he promised that his REAL followers will reflect this title with their activities globally! Act 1:8

Can you refute this?

The group that doesn't know what the Gospel of Salvation is!?
SMH!

All you are repeating is that you are a Christian cult like the Mormon and OOO. They also like you are chest beaters and empty barrels who instead of following Jesus boast about.

Lk 17:10:
"Likewise you also, when you have done all the things that are commanded you, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants, because we have done that which we were obligated to do’."

Tell me:
Why do you think Christadelphians, Bible Students and The Way International are not the only "true Christians" like you?

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