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Christianity EtcRe: Can A Clarification Be Made On The Position Of Christianity On Reincarnation? by TenQ: 4:56am On Dec 02, 2023
bobestman:
@TenQ whether you guys believe or not that is una cup of tea. It is biblical. One day you guys will understand


Elijah taken bodily to heaven, he recieved a spiritual/heavenly body. You have become spirits like them and can no longer function on earth unless you take up body/reincarnate/reborn. It is likened to death


Jesus didn't give any explanation on the issue but you quoted Matt 17:11-13 where he clearly said he came already. In Reincarnation it is same path. An evil woman sought to kill him before he was taken up. An evil woman later killed him. He was also reborn as a kid till the time for his ministry same with the messiah

It is a Reincarnation cos it means to take up a new body and be reborn as a child on earth. Those in heaven are spirits and can't truly function on earth without a body/re-incarnating. Same with us. We can only go their with a spiritual body. The earthly body will fall off. That is what happened to Elijah. This is also what Paul talked about by being CHANGED during RAH-P-ture
It is simple to. comprehend sir!
1. Up to the time of Christ, did Elijah die?
2. If he did, where was his body or grave?

If death is the separation of the union between a person's Body and Soul, can one truly say that Elijah died?
3. If there was no death, can their be reincarnation?
Christianity EtcRe: Punishment for not following YHWH in the Old Testament by TenQ:
AntiChristian:
From Deuteronomy
Chapter 28
....

Now let me make it easier for the reader, I will basically post what the Christian God will do as a punishment to those who wouldn't follow him:

[color=#990000]1- God will cause his people to murdered and massacred, and they will flee in all directions.

2- People will beget children but will not be able to enjoy them because they will be sent into slavery.
3- People's children shall be given to other people and the parents will wish they could have them back but they wont.
4- cannibalism, yes cannibalism! 53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee
5- God will send diseases to the people
6- You will get married, and your wife will sleep with other men.

These are some of the punishments that the God of the Bible will do to his people if they don't follow him.
1. Your ignorance of scriptural truths never cease to amaze me as your lack of the understanding of Israel as a nation being the child of God is confusing both to you and your prophet Mohammed.
2. Your Strawman Argument is simply the characteristics of you and your prophet knowing that the same spirit that made him recite the satanic verses in the Qur'an reigns in you
a. Show me a single natiotin the whole world where God made a covenant with any nation on earth.
Exodus 19-24,
God makes a covenant with the Israelites at Mount Sinai through Moses. This covenant includes the Ten Commandments and various laws that would govern the nation.

b. The condition of covenant of God with Israel as a nation include both Blessings and Curses depending on the response of Israel to the rule of God.
c. It is therefore a Strawman Argument to claim
"I will basically post what the Christian God will do as a punishment to those who wouldn't follow him:"

Except you can show me from the Bible how the covenant of God applies to Mecca or Medina or another nation. I am waiting!

The children of perdition will get themselves lost by rejecting the Messiah for a person whose God is his belly, sex and vanities
Christianity EtcRe: Can A Clarification Be Made On The Position Of Christianity On Reincarnation? by TenQ: 11:28pm On Dec 01, 2023
Explore2xmore:
There appears some verses in the Bible that say reincarnation doesn't occur.
Hebrews 9:27 - "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment

Yet Jesus is said to say Elijah had come but wasn't recognised. Matthew 11:10-14.

Where was Elijah said to have come?

Then he is also said to come again at the end of the world.


Attn: Fxmasterz,SirTee15,Malcom1x,Maximdhouse,Mightysparrow,MrPrevailer,Tenq and all who can shed light and knowledge about this.
Christians do NOT believe in reincarnation as it is contrary to the scripture.

1. Elijah did not die but was taken bodily to heaven, therefore this is not a reincarnation
2Kin 2:11:
"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."


2. Jesus said, that John the Baptist was Elijah (without giving any explanation of how it is). Jesus simply said:

Mat 11:14:
"And if you will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come."


Mat 17:11-13:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say to you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."


Since Elijah never died, this cannot be called a reincarnation.

Not withstanding, as Christians, we believe in miracles from God as a suspension of the norm in specific instances such that God reserves the right to resurrect anyone or even cause a person to be reincarnated. However, this would be a miracle of God and stands unchallenged by us as Christians.
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 6:23pm On Nov 28, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Seems you are tired of your usual Copy on and Paste?
And Till today, none of you have shown me where I copy my posts from: aren't you ashamed of your false accusations?



Here is a hadith: is this hadith Daif or Maudu as
It is clear that the question was not about whether Allah has left Mohammed BUT whether satan has left Mohammed.



Sahih al-Bukhari 4983
Narrated Jundub:
Once the Prophet (ﷺ) fell ill and did not offer the night prayer (Tahajjud prayer) for a night or two. A woman (the wife of Abu Lahab) came to him and said, "O Muhammad ! I do not see but that your Satan has left you. "
Then Allah revealed (Surat-Ad-Duha):
'By the fore-noon, and by the night when it darkens (or is still); Your Lord has not forsaken you, nor hated you.' (93)

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو نُعَيْمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنِ الأَسْوَدِ بْنِ قَيْسٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ جُنْدَبًا، يَقُولُ اشْتَكَى النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَلَمْ يَقُمْ لَيْلَةً أَوْ لَيْلَتَيْنِ فَأَتَتْهُ امْرَأَةٌ فَقَالَتْ يَا مُحَمَّدُ مَا أُرَى شَيْطَانَكَ إِلاَّ قَدْ تَرَكَكَ، فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ ‏{‏وَالضُّحَى * وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا سَجَى * مَا وَدَّعَكَ رَبُّكَ وَمَا قَلَى‏}‏
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 4983
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 2:59pm On Nov 28, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Bring the set of Hadiths and let us read/see.

Also, tell us the bad nature of the Ranger Transmitter/s.

QED.
You need to first tell me if there are exceptions
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 1:30pm On Nov 28, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Afraid of what exactly?

Tell us the Lies the Transmitter told or his Bad Nature.
I made a submission followed with a question and you avoided a response as usual

I said:
But there is a set of Hadiths you Muslims hold tenaciously to that is from a certified liar (Muslim scholars by concensus all attest to the bad nature of this particular hadith narrator)

This is confusing!

Are there exceptions to this rule of yours?

Is the question not simple : are there exceptions to the rule?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 1:10pm On Nov 28, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Make sense.

Try....
Are there exceptions to this rule of yours?

Are you afraid of answering simple questions?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 10:24am On Nov 28, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Go and read about the Science of Hadiths Collection.

In Islam generally, once you are caught lying once, your future evidence/s will be Null and Void. At least in Law.
But there is a set of Hadiths you Muslims hold tenaciously to that is from a certified liar (Muslim scholars by concensus all attest to the bad nature of this particular hadith narrator)

This is confusing!

Are there exceptions to this rule of yours?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 4:09pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
You need to learn more.

Those books were removed because some people feel they were not inspired.

That some people sat somewhere and fabricated them.

As for the Hadiths, read some more why they were rejected.
I have an important question as you Muslims seem to use double standard in dealing with a Christian who uses a Hadith you don't like.

Should every Hadith from a person be rejected if just that ONE person in the chain of transmission is a LIAR or a FABRICATOR?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 4:03pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Lol

Intelligence is not only in the ability to string words together. They have to make sense.

God "died".

Then "He" is no God.

And definitely not different from others that died too.
See your foolishness manifest: satan is an expert in Strawman arguments.

If in Islam, death is annihilation, only then you have spoken correctly!

I can understand it's the same reason of lack of Comprehension why your paradise is highly sexualized: you live by the dictate of your earthly nature.
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 3:59pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Only Retar.ds ask such after claiming to have read the Bible and the Quran.
According to your religion :
Are Zachariah, Yahaya, Mary and Jesus not Muslims?

Your lies always catch up with you! For your information, they are all Jews
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 3:48pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Yeah

The way you have the Canonicals and the non canonicals?

The Apocrypha, the Catholic Bible having more books than the Protestants Bible etc
Not the same bro!
Have you heard any Christian claiming that their books is Maudu or Daif? Non canonical does not mean lies or fabrication
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 1:38pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Live your delusions and believe every delusional tendencies that invade your mind, that's non of my business.

Go and ask a Jew/Jewess if he/she is a Muslim. They are in a better position to tell you not me.

The Jews offences? Then and now?

Read the accusations of their own Prophets against them in the old testament. Then read what your lord and savior said about them.

Now, collate your findings then take a critical look at Jewry today.

Do the above, you will find the answer to your questions
The question is to you as a Muslim : are Jews Muslims?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 1:37pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Live your delusions and believe every delusional tendencies that invade your mind, that's non of my business.

Go and ask a Jew/Jewess if he/she is a Muslim. They are in a better position to tell you not me.

The Jews offences? Then and now?

Read the accusations of their own Prophets against them in the old testament. Then read what your lord and savior said about them.

Now, collate your findings then take a critical look at Jewry today.

Do the above, you will find the answer to your questions
Answer the simple question and stop beating about the bush!


Why is it that Muslims would rather dodge having to give answers to questions?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 1:35pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Lol

The Truth or your Fabled Truth?

Keep clowning wink
The haters of truth are easy to find: almost all their OWN religious books and hadiths are Daif of Maudu!
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 1:34pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Yeah same way God died when Jesus was strung up.

No be so?
And only stupidly ignorant religious people think that death is annihilation rather than a translocation!
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 1:32pm On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Olodo read the Text again

The Christians Farmer came to sell in Medina and not a resident.

He was from Sham. Present day Syria, Lebanon.

Olodo want to teach me what he doesn't know.
No Christian in Medina but they can come and sell goods!.
Okay!
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 11:50am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Keep scrutinizing it.

Keep it up. cool
My own is to expose you to the truth!
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 11:49am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Only an Escapee from that place will type as such cheesy
Of course the truth hurts

Is Allah's throne empty or your prophet telling lies?

For if your prophet was correct, Allah is perpetually trapped on the earth. Too bad.!
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 11:48am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
You see why you deserve a bed At YabaLeft?
Sorry ehn!

Islam is a caricature at best. Easy to burst with truth.


Let me ask you a Question :
Are the Jews also Muslims?
What is their offence?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 11:45am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Example of Christians in Medina no?
Sahih Muslim 377
Ibn Umar reported:
When the Muslims came to Medina, they gathered and sought to know the time of prayer but no one summoned them. One day they discussed the matter, and some of them said: Use something like the bell of the Christians and some of them said: Use horn like that of the Jews. Umar said: Why may not a be appointed who should call (people) to prayer? The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: O Bilal, get up and summon (the people) to prayer.




I say Lukuluku69, go learn your religion better



Sahih al-Bukhari 4418
Narrated `Abdullah bin Ka`b bin Malik:
..... "While I was walking in the market of Medina, suddenly I saw a Nabati (i.e. a Christian farmer) from the Nabatis of Sham who came to sell his grains in Medina, saying, 'Who will lead me to Ka`b bin Malik?' The people began to point (me) out for him till he came to me and handed me a letter from the king of Hassan....





Were their Christians in Medina?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 11:00am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Let us suppose that the Throne of Allah is empty, seriously what is that to me?

Do i want to seat on it?

Do i start making a Religion out of that fact?
Is it empty or your prophet telling lies?

For if your prophet was correct, Allah is perpetually trapped on the earth. Too bad.!

Is your prophet correct?
LOL!
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 10:59am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Lol

Always all over the place.

Waraqa was a resident of Makkah and not Medina. He died even before the Prophet commenced preaching and he stayed 13 years in Makkah before migrating to Medina.

On the Christian Community, I repeat non existed Medina at the time of the Prophet. What you read in that Hadith are Companions saying what they noticed the Christian community do to call people for worship.

Yes there are Christian communities in Arabia but no so much in Medina.


The Christians communities are only in Najran.
Waraqa as an example of a Christian in Mecca.

And I gave you Sahih Muslim 377 as an example in Medina.

Learn your religion well.

Of course, you don't ask questions : how can you then know!
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 10:56am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Lol

Allah enters into created beings? To do what exactly?

You see all these suppositions of yours is what is leading you astray.

Quit otherwise you will be forever astray.
You are like one given a document by a 419 who refused to read for scrutiny and comprehension the document in his hand until it is too late.
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 10:52am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
In our Faith, we don't ask such questions.

Once it is not expressly stated in our Books (Quran and the Prophetic Tradition) we don't discuss it nor do we entertain any moroni.c questions regarding them.

Capiche?
This is why you bask in IGNORANCE while claiming knowledge.

You don't ask the questions but a Christian who you claim is wrong: how do you know without questions?



1. Is it untrue that your prophet said that Allah comes down to the nearest heaven to you Muslims in night prayer?

Sahih al-Bukhari 1145
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (p.b.u.h) said, "Our Lord, the Blessed, the Superior, comes every night down on the nearest Heaven to us when the last third of the night remains, saying: "Is there anyone to invoke Me, so that I may respond to invocation? Is there anyone to ask Me, so that I may grant him his request? Is there anyone seeking My forgiveness, so that I may forgive him?"


Unfortunately, if Mohammed is correct, the throne of Allah should be EMPTY now
as the earth is not flat





I have answered question 1 for you. LOL! See how easy it is!

2. When Jibril became a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
As a perfect man, did Jibril have a urinary and excretory tract?

3. When Allah changed into another shape for which you Muslims do not know, what happened to his first shape?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 10:42am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Olodo like you cheesy

In the Quran, Christians are referred to as NASARA while the Jews are YAHUDI and if the Address is to the Whole of Jacobs Sons, it is BANI ISARELA.

The part where you see PEOPLE OF THE BOOK. refers to the Jews living in Medina at the Time of the Prophet.

So, before you start jumping like a Bonobo I need to clarify that.

No Christian Community were ever in Medina at the Prophet time.
See how conflicting your religions is
I. Jews are Yahudi
II. Jews living at the time of Mohammed are people of the book!

Are your scholars who translated the Qur'an into English ignoramus to claim that the people of the Book are Jews and Christians?



Is this new conclusion according to you or your scholars?

Are you saying that the Qur'an is not relevant to the future as it addresses ONLY the Christians and Jews of the time of Mohammed?

Since you mentioned Israel, please who is Israel according to the Qur'an?


Were Christians in Mecca?
Did Mohammed write that Christians, Jews and Sabians will enter Paradise while in Mecca?

Sahih Muslim 377
Ibn Umar reported:
When the Muslims came to Medina, they gathered and sought to know the time of prayer but no one summoned them. One day they discussed the matter, and some of them said: Use something like the bell of the Christians and some of them said: Use horn like that of the Jews. Umar said: Why may not a be appointed who should call (people) to prayer? The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: O Bilal, get up and summon (the people) to prayer.




Can you answer the question how Waraqa used to write the gospel?


Sahih al-Bukhari 3392
[i]Narrated `Aisha:
The Prophet (ﷺ) returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."[/i]


I have shown you that Christians are both in Mecca and Medina from your own hadiths.


Any more lies!?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 10:23am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Lol

Allah enters into created beings? To do what exactly?

You see all these suppositions of yours is what is leading you astray.

Quit otherwise you will be forever astray.
Its a question sir.

According to your religion and Mohammed (Saw).
1. Can Allah enter into his creation or is it impossible?

2. When Jibril became a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
As a perfect man, did Jibril have a urinary and excretory tract?

3. When Allah changed into another shape for which you Muslims do not know, what happened to his first shape?
Foreign AffairsRe: IDF Soldier Escapes Death By Miracle by TenQ: 9:57am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
Jew Worshiper, what I quoted was dictated to Isaiah by the Holy Ghost on the order of Jehovah the father of Jesus and if you are one of those Dotards like TENQ who believes Jesus is Jehovah, then by Jesus himself.
Just admit that you don't understand any spiritual truth.

Allah tells you to ask questions from the Christians and Jews (the people of the book).

When we ask you simple questions from your book, you can't even answer...like


Can Allah enter into his creation or is it impossible?

When Jibril became a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
As a perfect man, did Jibril have a urinary and excretory tract?


When Allah changed into another shape for which you Muslims do not know, what happened to his first shape?
TravelRe: The Shelter Where Some Nigerians Are Living At Mississauga In Canada by TenQ: 9:37am On Nov 27, 2023
Lukuluku69:
You talk too much, not surprised in any way though. That's a sign for confused minds.

You need to go research the true meaning and significance of The word Messiah.

Yes, Jesus was a Messiah sent to the Lost of the House of Israel. To call them back from their erring ways and did they listened?

They turn on him like wolves while he deals with them the manner a Chicken looks after her chicks.

In the end, Curses and damnation ended his Mission and they remain Reprobates till date.

As for you Christians, you believed the Accounts of the Lying Paul over Jesus handpicked Disciples as such, you have been straying ever since.

As for Prophet Muhammad, there are dozens dozens of places he was mentioned in the Bible but just as the Jews are blind to the mentions, the Christians are equally blind to the mentions. Simply because you guys are reading your meanings to clear scriptures. Conjectures, wrong expectations, outright lies.

But a lot are seeing it already and are coming to the fold of islam.

Just open that closed mind of yours.
See the one asking about the Messiah but who doesn't have an inkling of who He is!

Qur'an 4:157
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain


Why would the Jews say they killed their Messiah?
Christianity EtcRe: Mohammed: The ONLY Prophet ever Accused Of STEALING by TenQ(op): 9:32am On Nov 27, 2023
MightySparrow:
This fraudphet is the meanest in the history of prophethood. He made his father -in - law drunk consummate a marriage to Khadija. He became a highway robber to frustrate folks to Islam. He took Zainab from her husband by greed sponsored by Allah.


Little wonder we have true followers in Boko Haram, ISIS, Taliban, HAMAS, etc. All these Nairaland's apologetics are just Islamic sympathizers.

Until they follow the steps of Mohammed, I cannot take them serious.

AK-47 is cheap in Islamic market. Sadly enough, these people have killed more of themselves than the infidels Mohammed commannded them to kill.



CC: Antichristian
The whole of this slam is based on lies through rewriting history. Unfortunately, their own writings of their prophet cast the Religion in a bad light as they are doing everything to either discard events or minimise its implications or outrightly deny and fabricate a new storyline.

Mohammed had a copy of his Qur'an why is it that Uthman had to rewrite another Qur'an? Till today, no one can find a copy of copy of the Uthman Qur'an, they are relying on the recitation of Hafs who lived 200 years after Mohammed: a man attested by them by consensus that he's a liar!

They know why! They need to edit and re-edit the Qur'an so that it can pass as the book of Allah.

It is unthinkable that Moses would be accused of stealing. The man did not even give properties to himself in Israel!
Christianity EtcRe: Mohammed: The ONLY Prophet ever Accused Of STEALING by TenQ(op): 9:10am On Nov 27, 2023
MightySparrow:
You have given him answer already. Thanks for your generosity.

Allah itself is a thief or Mohammed stole the personality of Yahweh of Israel for it. Not only that, Allah stole the historical relationship of Jews or Mohammed did for glorification of a nonexistent Allah.

The evidence is clear. Up till now, I can't understand why Allah's prophecy is thwarted by United Nations and tiny Israel and biblical prophecies are upheld

HAMAS and Israel, return of Jews to their land and many more are clear proofs.
Mohammed is a serious 419 who used the gullibility of the Arabs to craft a religion as a means of livelihood for himself. Allah is just the masquerade clothe Mohammed puts on whenever he wants to decieve his people.

If he was just a tad righteous, no one would insinuate stealing to him. A shameless man that can take the wife of his son!
PoliticsRe: FHA Demolition: Tears, Grief As Abule Ado Landlords Count Losses by TenQ: 3:32am On Nov 27, 2023
Racoon:
Chai! Investments of years of hard labour brought down because of stark disregard to rules and regulations. Although other factors may be responsible, but it is understandable that willfull disobedience caused a lot of them their property.
Please blame the government who made it impossible for citizens to walk into the appropriate government office to buy land.

Blame the government who watched developments taking place on an illegal land but kept quiet until a full city black was built.

If you check carefully, there are some big people close to the government who are to benefit from this newly developed place.

It's the same troubltwith adoption process in Nigeria :government made it difficult and untransparent that private unscrupulous individuals came in to start selling babies

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