₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
Spiritual illiteracy is your problem!

Once you're ready to do all what you said then you're already a disciple of Muhammad who brought those things, so whether you acknowledge him or not you're already his disciples for believing in his teachings!

If only you had read a few post (between the lines) before judging.

Shalom

Lukuluku69:
I like your monologue. It is an indication of what is goes on within the Christian mind.

So, keep the "dialogue" going within you.

The part that I will respond to is the part that says Islam will die. Really really?

That line has been repeated how many times now? Ask the Europeans that came with Christianity, they are in a better position to tell you the State they met Islam, their collective effort to end it, the result they have achieved and the present state of Islam.

So, dream on. It is no crime.

Without lies, Islam dies: is a truth!

Unfortunately, the lies will continue by their sponsors, meaning that Islam will thrive until when the TRUTH takes over the world.

Till then,
When one knows the truth, the person is set FREE!

MaxInDHouse:
Funny misinformed Churchgoers!

If you don't believe in Muhammad then who taught all these things you mentioned?

Well that's what true Christians (Jehovah's Witnesses) are telling you people, don't believe in Jesus but practice what he taught then see if your denial will make any sense when you're obeying all the rules he gave without calling him "Lord" Matthew 7:21-23

You'll be a waste of precious time for my response for my standard in Christ Jesus is much higher than any five pillars of Islam. If you cant read up in context, too bad.

Lukuluku69:
Don't worry. The same people that brought Christianity will soon tell you that Islam is the Truth.

Unfortunately without lies, Islam dies!
Islam has to be sustained with force, lies and deception to hold people in captivity.

Question: How many Qurans do we have?
Muslims Answer: One
Truth: We have seen 34 different Arabic Qurans and still counting

Question: Has the Quran ever been changed?
Muslims Answer: Not at all. Its the same letter by letter, word by word even up to the dialectical marks
Truth: Hundreds of differences Qurans and still counting have been found

Question: Is Mohammed the last Prophet?
Muslims Answer: He is the last and the greatest of them all
Truth: Yet, Jesus is not dead and is coming back to kill the Dajjal, break the crosses and kill the pigs and would be buried beside Mohammed

Question: Did Jesus die on the cross?
Muslims Answer: No, He didn't. But we don't know what happened to him
Truth: Mary the Mother of Jesus witnessed his death, John the disciple witnessed his death. The disciples witnessed his assentation. Jews claimed they killed Him. Roman historians documented the christus that was crucified. Now 700 years after, a new history appeared.

Question: How come the Quran?
Muslims Answer: Angel Gabriel dictated the words of Allah to Mohammed
Truth: If Allah is God, how comes he thought that the sun set inside the murky waters? How come Allah confused Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam sister of Aaron? How come Abraham was delivered from the fire rather than Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego? How come Allah prays for Muhammad? How come Trinity is God, Mary and Jesus?

Unfortunately without lies, Islam dies a natural death!

Lukuluku69:
All the Isaiah you quoted above, why are you quoting just a Verse and not the whole Chapter?

Did Jesus ever sit on David Seat? While he was here, it was Herod that sat on David's Seat o. Which Government was upon his shoulder? The same Jesus that ran away when the people Nain wanted to make him king? The same Jesus that won't judge against two brothers? The same Jesus that had no where to lay his head?

Bros, quoted the whole Chapter and I will show you who that Oracle was meant for.

Why not even read the whole book to show who the writing is about.

You ask if Jesus ever sat on the throne of David: Unfortunately, you did not ask yourself if Mohammed ever sat on the throne of David since the prophecy is fulfilled in Mohammed.

All Christians and Jews see the prophecy of Isaiah happening in the future my dear in the days of the return of the Messiah.

Did Mohammed ever sat on the throne of David?

If he didnt, the prophecy can never be about him.

I asked you a simple question:
Is it possible that you as a Muslim will go to any mosque and lead a prayer to Yahweh!?

Lukuluku69:
You see we can go back and forth on the issue of Book of Isaiah and what it contains. One thing I can tell you for free is the fact that that book came to warn Israel to change their ways or else they will be replaced.

This is a mere assertion and conjecture.
Can you show me just one verse in the whole book of Isaiah which states that Israel would be replaced by another nation.

The Book of Isaiah speaks about
1. God's Judgment on Israel
2. The Advent of the Messiah
3. God's forgiveness and Restoration of Israel
4. The Glory of the New Israel.

Lukuluku69:
The funny thing is in that book mention is made of TEMA, ARABIA, KEDAR, MIDIAN, NEBIAOTH. Which are all names of a Certain Ishmael who God promised to build a NATION for. Or you are telling me God was bluffing?

In what capacity did the book of isaiah mention all the Arabian nations? Is it not to pay tribute to Israel?
Instead, this is what the Lord God said about Kedar
Isaiah 21:16-17
16For this is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a hired worker would count it, all the glory of Kedar will be gone. 17The remaining archers, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.” For the LORD, the God of Israel, has spoken


Isaiah 2:3
And many peoples will come and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways so that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Can you show a specific verse that says that Israel will be replaced by any of the Arabian nations!

Lukuluku69:
Islam never said the whole of your Book is corrupted.

Allah never said that any of the book was corrupted
Mohammed did not say that any of the book was corrupted.

So, where did Islam get its doctrine of partial corruption!?

Lukuluku69:
On the name YAHWEH, that is not the name of God of Israel. It comes from the Ya huwa Elohim. Meaning OH HE ELOHIM. Now to jettisoned ELOHIM and add vowels signs to the OH HE thinking you have a unique name of God is laughable.

Complete conjecture from you my dear. Islamists are struggling desperately to legitimise Allah as a Name and not a Title.

Yahweh is built on the root word "I AM" or "I AM WHO I AM".
The meaning could be interpreted as “He Who Makes That Which Has Been Made” or “He Brings into Existence Whatever Exists” or "One in whom all things consist".

Elohim mean DEITY: it is a title of any divine being or even idol.

Lukuluku69:
I gave you a pointers as to what the name of God sounds like. Ishmael's name means " God heard" in Hebrew. Properly articulated the name is ISHMAELLAH (Hebrew) ISMAILLAH (Arabic) so where do you see Yahweh or Jehovah in that? Or are you saying you know more than the Angel that brought the name?

I wish you took time to study

I guess your ignorance of the language is causing you problems:
Ishma-el: means "God heard" not "Jehovah Heard"
Gen 16:11
You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery.

EL- is the shortened form of Eloha or Elohim (in Arabic Allah). I can be a prefix or suffix to any attribute.

Jews give names that can have either EL or YAH as shorted form of Elohim (Generic: Deity) or Yahweh (Specific Name of the Deity of Abraham)


Like the other titles of God
EL-Shaddai' : God Almighty
EL-ohim: God Supreme
El Elyon: God Yahweh

Names that uses the Name rather than the title of God
YHWH-Yireh (Yahweh-Yireh) — "Yahweh will provide" ( Genesis 22:13, 14).
YHWH-Rapha" — "Yahweh that healeth" ( Exodus 15:26).
YHWH-Niss"i (Yahweh-Nissi) — "Yahweh our Banner" (Exodus 17:8-15).
YHWH-Shalom — "Yahweh our Peace" ( Judges 6:24).
YHWH-Ra-ah — "Yahweh my Shepherd" ( Psalms 23:1).
YHWH-Tsidkenu — "Yahweh our Righteousness" ( Jeremiah 23:6).
YHWH-Shammah — "Yahweh is present" ( Ezekiel 48:35).


In other words, there is difference between Yahweh and Allah.

If Allah/Elohim is the specific name of the Creator, what is the name of Dagon the god of the Phillistines?
1Sam 5:7:
"And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore on us, and on Dagon our god."
You can check the Hebrew of the text.

If you still have a problem with Yahweh as the name of God, I can even use the Quran to expose the ignorance of Gods name in the Quran.

It is amazing that you find that the book of Isaiah has not been compromised enough to see all the prophecies about Mohammed and Mecca in it.

It is in the details that one understands any prophecy but you are avoiding the details because the details show you that your position is completely incorrect.

Lukuluku69:
You raised a lot of points and I would advise that we take them one after the other. Don't load your response or your poser all in a post. We are talking about God here and I believe we should take our time and discuss it fully

1. The whole of Isaiah speaks about the Nation of Israel AND another Nation. Like I said earlier, this other Nation is not mentioned by name but a description was given. The Jews know it but the lying pens of their scribe have deliberately obliterated the mention of that Nation. That Nation is the Ummah of Muhammad ( Ummah simply means Nation in the Semitic Tongue)

The book of Isaiah did not speak about Israel and another nation. The book speaks about Israel and OTHER Nations. The central point is about Israel band the Messiah.

How come both the Jews and Christians agree about Isaiah 42 and Isaiah 60?

Let me help you out by lifting up scripture from Isaiah that speaks about the RESTORATION of Israel.

Isa 2:3:
"And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."

Isa 4:3:
"And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remains in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:"

Isa 4:4:
"When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the middle thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning."

Isa 9:6-7:
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Isa 10:20-21:
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay on him that smote them; but shall stay on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God"


There are literally hundreds of verses in the book of Isaiah that speaks of the specific Nation being Israel (both in judgment and restoration).

My brother read the whole book of Isaiah and tell me it is about Mohammed OR that God is replacing Israel bwith another nation.

Lukuluku69:
2. All the inhabitants of the World following in the Laws that Servant brought simply point to the fact that that Law will be widespread among the "agoyim"(Gentiles) Look around you and the World and see which Law is widespread among the people of faith worldwide. Take a hard look at the Sharia of Muhammad. Now tell me which country of the world follow the Law as STATED in the Bible and which County follow the Law as STATED in the Koran. And Jehovah is not God's name among the Israelites nor in any Semitic tongue which Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic belongs. Jehovah is a new word barely 500 years old. ELOH, ELAH, EL, ALLAH, ALLON are the names of God in the semitic tongue. The variation is down only to dialects. Ask the Yoruba what is the difference between Olodumare and Eledumare. They will tell you it is the same just dialectical differences. You know the Name Ishmael? It means God Heard. Properly articulated the Name is ISHMAELLAH.

Point of correction:
Jehovah is a Latinized form of Yahweh! Yahweh is in Hebrew and Jews out of respect don't call God by His personal name. They will rather address Him by His titles such as ADONAI, ELOHIM, ELOHA, EL-Shaddai etc.

Yahweh had existed in common knowledge from the time of Moses.

Exo 6:3:
"And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

Ps 83:18:
"That men may know that you, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, are the most high over all the earth."

Yahweh is NOT a title of God the Creator and thus it's not about dialectical difference.

ELOH, ELAH, EL, ALLAH are all titles of God which means DEITY!

The title ELOHM is even used for idols
1Sam 5:7:
"And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore on us, and on Dagon our god."

The two words God and God are both ELOHIM in Hebrew.

It is amazing that the God of Islam doesn't seem to be aware that Yahweh is his personal name. There is not one single place where Yahweh is mentioned in the Qur'an.

Is it possible that you as a Muslim will go to any mosque and lead a prayer to Yahweh!?
YAHWEH is a strange name in Islam.

Lukuluku69:
3. Find time and read about the Arabs before Islam was preached among them and you will understand this particular verse better. They call that period " Days/years of Ignorance.

Coming to Isaiah 60, between Israel and Arabia, or if you like Jerusalem and Mecca tell me which of these two Nation/City qualify as been served? Look at Mecca every Day, every month and once in a Year how people from every corner go to Mecca for worship. Can't you see that?

And to tell you what, Nations that refuse to acknowledge the Mission of Prophet Muhammad were all destroyed. Ask the Persian, the Grecian Empire as well as the Roman Empire. Please also read the vision of Daniel about the Four Kingdom of the world when Nebuchadnezzar dreamt that dream. Daniel said a Nation is coming to put an end to them all. Ask your self who ended Persian Kingdom and converted them to Muslims? Who drove the Greeks away with their pollution from Judaea, who halted the Roman March?

His Sun shall no.......... Simply means The Lord will be his guide forever more

Your people shall be righteous and shall inherit the land forever........what this simply means is that once the message is preached, "his" people will not backslide as was the case with Israel. They might fail in the little things but NEVER WILL THEY WORSHIP ANYTHING ASIDE GOD.
Can you say that of Israel? For I know that Moses had not gone a little over 40 Days before some of them start worshipping the golden calf.

You muddle up a lot of things here my friend.

Everywhere in the book of Isaiah if you care to read speak NOT of a total rejection of Israel but a RESTORATION of the kingdom back to Israel.

Daniel spoke of an everlasting kingdom
Here is what Daniel said:



Dan 7:27:
"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."
Daniel spoke about the period as after resurrection.
Dan 12:2:
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


If you are expecting the D'dajjal and the end of the world, how can the kingdom of Mecca be everlasting?

Is everybody in Mecca or Medina righteous!?
Because if the prophecy is already fulfilled, this is what we expect.



[quote author=Lukuluku69 post=114750354]Yes Isaiah was sent to Israel to warn and also let them know that Prophethood will move from the Nation of reprobates to another nation.

Can you spare time to read just chapter 2 of Isaiah (if you are truly sincere about the truth) and tell me if you arrive at the same conclusion.

Lukuluku69:
Mind you Isaiah 42/60 is not the only place the mission of Prophet Muhammad was mentioned. The Pslams mentioned him, Solomon sang about him, Habakkuk prophesied his coming, many of Isaiah Oracles points to his mission as well as major and minor prophets of Israel.

Does this not contradict Muslims claim that the Bible is compromised (if all these prophets spoke about Mohammed)!?

Lukuluku69:
Like I said, you have to deduce and you can only do that with a sound knowledge of world history.

I think I know history better than most Muslims especially of Israel and related facts (past and present).
Muslims are the ones who twist the truth without explanation and expect people to believe them.
Like:
-The Jews claim the crucified Jesus
-The Disciples of Jesus claimed the Jews and the Romans crucified Jesus. Christians even spoke of their interactions with Christ after His resurrection.
- Roman Historians claim they crucified Christus

Islam comes almost 700years to say a different history. Now, they dispute amongst themselves the implications of their claim of what truely happened.

Lukuluku69:
Why do you think many Europeans who are genuinely interested in Faith reverts to Islam?

Europeans are interested in Islam because Christianity has become lukewarm in their country as prophesied by Christ.

Luk 18:8:
" ..... Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?"

Jesus will return when the church is cold in faith.
There is nothing strange about it as it is the signs of the End-time and coming judgement.

As per the Book of Isaiah, it doesn't prophesy Mohammed at all.
However, I am open to other verses you think speaks about Mohammed or Mecca and I will study them to assert it's TRUTH.

DaddyFreeze2020:
These ones are not the common Fulani herdsmen.
They're the educated ones who are exposed but still have the slim frame of all Fulanis

No.
This is how the younger Fulani men dress at Salah. You'll see hundreds of them male dressed and female all dressed up and painted.

haekymbahd:
What is the main message of all the prophets/messengers of God and what was the message of muhammad.

Abraham wasn't given 10 commandments..

Moses taught an eye for an eye

According to the bible Jesus refuted eye for an eye

Muhammad brought an embodiment of all....


So which of the previous prophet message do we as Muslims reject?


Allah SWT said:

"Say, O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah. But if they turn away, then say, Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 64)

But as Muslims, do you obey the law of Moses?
Do you even use the Torah in your worship even though you claim to believe in it?

None of the earlier prophets ABROGATED the scriptures before them. Even Jesus read from the Torah and the book of Isaiah and he did NOT replace them with the Injeel.

Do you read the Torah, Zabur or Injeel in Islam?
No!
Because the contents many times contradict Islamic teachings!


On one side, you want to claim we serve the same God BUT on the other hand, you abrogate the earlier foundation.


By the Way:
Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob are not Prophets but Patriarchs (not prophets).
Not one Jew or Christian call them prophets!

A prophet is one who is a spokesman/mouthpiece for God!

Lukuluku69:
You see the difference between you and I concerning the Oracles of Isaiah (not only Isaiah 42/60) is that you believe Isaiah 42/60 is yet to happen while I believe it happened way back in the past hence our different interpretation to it

You see, Prophesies are word pictures of what the future holds. It is only open to interpretation by the Prophet giving such prophecy. Usually name/s of the personae involved are not given. It is left to the discerning minds to find out, to deduce that in actual fact this is what is intended by this prophecy.

Usually when a Prophecy is not intended for a time, it is useless for a the people of that time to claim such prophecy and often time they mis-apply such.

That Isaiah clearly states that "that Servant and Messenger" will build a Nation, fight idolaters, will set out a Law that will be everlasting among many others.

In that Oracle, it is stated clearly that Kedar, Midian, Nebaioth, Tema will all flock to him and acclaim him thier Leader.

You see all that names belongs to Ishmael's sons.

It is cold hard fact of history that the Arabs as a whole accepted and acclaimed Prophet Muhammad as a Messenger of God.

Thanks for the response. I want us to assume that Mohammed is the servant spoken of and Mecca is the Nation. We can look at Isaiah 42 and 60 in that light and let the truth speak.

1. The Whole book of Isaiah speaks about the Nation of Israel, their rebellious nature, their rejection by God accompanied with judgement, the Return of the Messiah and the Restoration of Israel during the time of the Messiah .

Do you truely think the book Isaiah refers to Mohammed and Mecca as the Nation under God's judgement?

Let's now look at Isaiah 42 and check out if it refers to Mohammed or Mecca!


2. Let's check out Isaiah 42:
Verse 10, 11 and 12 says ALL inhabitants of the earth will come to Israel to praise JEHOVAH.

Do Muslims worship Jehovah?
Exact Hebrew word used as LORD is attached (verse 12)

3. Who do you sincerely think this verse refer to

Isa 42:22:
"But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivers; for a spoil, and none said, Restore."

Is it Mecca!?

4. Who do you sincerely think this verse refer to

Isa 42:24-25:
"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient to his law. Therefore he has poured on him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it has set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

How does this apply to Mohammed?

5. You said:

In that Oracle, it is stated clearly that Kedar, Midian, Nebaioth, Tema will all flock to him and acclaim him thier Leader.

The reference was not even to the chosen servant of God but to Israel as a Nation.

Let's now look at Isaiah 60 and check out if it refers to Mohammed or Mecca!


Isaiah spoke to the Nation of Israel and her children.
1. If you claim that the prophecy is ALREADY fulfilled, is any Nation serving Mecca?
Isa 60:12:
"For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; yes, those nations shall be utterly wasted."

2. Please can you explain how this verse has been fulfilled either with Mohammed or Mecca?
Isa 60:19:
"The sun shall be no more your light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light to you: but the LORD shall be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory."


3. How has this prophecy been fulfilled either with Mohammed or Mecca?

Isa 60:21:
"Your people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified."



A sincere response and answer to each of the questions attached will convince you that even though your Scholars need the validation of the bible, it is impossible except they twist scriptures.

[color=red]Finally, according to Islamic teachings;
1. Isn't Prophet Isaiah sent to HIS people?
2. Chapter 42 and Chapter 60 of the book of Isaiah is NOT in isolation of the whole book of Isaiah.

What do you think?

[/b]

haekymbahd:
Ten commandments wasn't revealed to Abraham but Moses. What happens when one beleives in Abraham but didn't believe in (the 10 commandments) Moses?

The Law of an eye was given to Moses what happens to Jews who disbelieve in Jesus who said otherwise?

As Muslims we beleive in Muhammad as the last prophet what that basically means is that we beleive in all prophet and messengers of God. It is not possible for a Muslim to say he/she beleives in Muhammad but disbelieve in Jesus because the Quran acknowledged him.


To classified and be called a Muslim one has to beleive in all prophets and messengers of God even Muhammad beleived in Jesus as God sent.


Allah SWT said:

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], We make no distinction between any of His messengers. And they say, We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 285)

Brother Hakeem,
You claim you believe in ALL the other earlier prophets YET you don't believe their messages!

The Jews still believe in ALL the prophets except Jesus and Mohammed and they use their books in worship.
The Christians still believe in ALL the prophets except Mohammed and they use their books in worship.

What is the proof that You Muslims believe in ALL the prophets while you discountenance their message and books?


How different is it from Me who claim to believe in Islam while rejecting the Qur'an;and Mohammed ?

mhmsadyq:
LOL!

Very predictable.

No wahala! Continue worshipping your crucifiedgod!

You still have not given me a reason if Mohammed did not preach anything different from the other prophets: or did he!?


So, why should I believe Mohammed if I can fulfill the five pillars of Islam even as a Christian.

mhmsadyq:
Ok.

You highlighted
1. Praying five times a day: As a Christian, I am required to pray without ceasing (always being in an attitude of conversation with God)
2. Fasting during Ramadan: As a Christian, I fast at will and no day or month is more important than another
3. Making pilgrimage to Mecca: As a Christian I am under no obligation to make pilgrimage to anywhere as it doesn't add anything to my faith or spiritual life. I could very well go to Mecca to have a spiritual retreat as the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof.


So, why should I believe Mohammed if I can fulfill the five pillars of Islam as a Christian.


Of course, I cannot join you to kiss the black stone as it is idolatry neither would I go round the Kaaba as it is an instruction from Mohammed.

mhmsadyq:
True!

All the prophets before Mohammed taught each of what you call the five pillars of Islam.

Believe in the Oneness of God
Prayer
Giving the less privileged
Fasting
Making pilgrimages

Please, what is new?
And why must I believe Mohammed as I have great reservations against him.

infini771:
Jesus is the only way to God

He says:
John14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

mhmsadyq:
I know you are lying as characteristic of you.

You believe in the message not the messenger.

How then are you sure of the message?

I don't have any problems with
1. Belief in God
2. praying five times a day;
3. giving zakat, or donating a certain portion of one's wealth;
4. fasting during Ramadan; and
5. making a pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia.


Because none of the five pillars nullify my faith in Christ Jesus.
I only ask if it is possible to become a Muslim WITHOUT believing in Muhammad.

Why?
Mohammed is not the only prophet who taught people to believe in the oneness of God, praying , giving, fasting or making pilgrimage. So, why should I believe Mohammed if I can fulfill the five pillars of Islam.

mhmsadyq:
I know you are lying as characteristic of you.

You believe in the message not the messenger.

How then are you sure of the message?

I don't have any problems with
1. Belief in God
2. praying five times a day;
3. giving zakat, or donating a certain portion of one's wealth;
4. fasting during Ramadan; and
5. making a pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia.


Because none of the five pillars nullify my faith in Christ Jesus.
I only ask if it is possible to become a Muslim WITHOUT believing in Mohammed.

Why?
Mohammed is not the only prophet who taught people to believe in the oneness of God, praying , giving, fasting or making pilgrimage. So, why should I believe Mohammed if I can fulfill the five pillars of Islam.

Lukuluku69:
Read Isaiah 42/60. It is a short commentary on the life of a Certain " Servant and Messenger of God"

That Messenger was mentioned countless times in the Bible (I am assuming you are Christian)

If you really want to know about that Prophet mention me with a reply.

Note: let us be civil. No abuse/s.

Thank you for your response. I believe people can differ and yet be civil. I am not unreasonable.

I have read Isaiah 42 and 60.

Isaiah 42 is speaking about the Messiah who will Restore Gods Kingdom in Israel
Verse 1
introduces the Messiah as the servant of God whose kingdom will extend to rule non Israelites (gentiles).
Verse 2-4
shows that this servant of God will not be violent yet people will obey His laws.
Verse 5-8
God speaks of the mission or assignment of the Messiah as He would be given as a Covenant (legal promise) to the people
Verse 10-12
God instructs all people from every nationality to Rejoice in the reign of the Messiah even to the villages of Kedar.
Verse 13-17
God speaks of the judgement that will He will bring upon the ungodly people of the earth.
Verse 20-25
God addresses Israel as a rebellious stubborn people who is currently (then) under Gods judgment but yet doesn't understand that it is God who is punishing them.

Isaiah 60 is speaking about the nation of Israel when the Messiah Restores their Nation
Verse 1-5
God speaks about the future Glory of Israel as a Nation. In the time when gross darkness cover the earth, Israel's light will shine and people will bring goods as Israel will be the source of their light. All scattered children of Israel will be brought back to Israel . The resources of the gentile will come to Israel.

Verse 6-11
All people from Midian, Sheba and Ephah will bring gold to Israel and flocks from Kedar will be given to Israel. Silver and Gold will be brought from Tarshish by people to worship the God of Israel.
Verse 10
God says, He had punished Israel in His wrath But now Israel would be safe from attacks (no need for walls).
Verse 12:
Any nation that refuse to serve Israel would be punished.
Verse 13-14
The generations of those who have afflicted Israel shall now themselves before Israel And the glory of Lebanon will be used to beautify the Temple of God in Israel.
Verse 15-22
God speaks about the complete restoration of Israel in a country where all of them will be righteous . In a kingdom that is everlasting.


The whole book of Isaiah details about the Return of the Messiah and the promise of Hope to the Children of Israel that though they are suffering under God's wrath but a time is coming when God will forgive them and restore them.

Kedar is just one of the places that will bring Tributes to Israel at that time.

That was whey the disciples of Jesus asked Him

Acts 1:6-7:
"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, will you at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in his own power."

The time of restoration is when Jesus return back to earth.

Acts 1:11:
"Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven."


Thank you

haekymbahd:
God never came directly but he sent his messengers. Anyone who hold upon the 5 pillars of islam is a Muslim.

You observing the 5 pillars of islam which is the commandment of Allah means you belief Muhammad. Allah does not require any human to worship Muhammad but to follow the commandment given to him.

So if you follow the 5 pillars of islam and the commandment of Allah you are indirectly following Muhammad. No Muslim worship Muhammad so no one require you to worship Muhammad but God alone.

Thanks for your response.

If I understand you well, you are saying in another words that all Christians are essentially Muslims because
ALL Christians believe
1. In the Oneness of God. ...
2. In the existence of Angels of God. ...
3. In the Revelations (Books) of God � in fact, they use all except the Qur'an in their worship
4. In the teachings of the Prophets of God as expressed in their books
5. In the Day of Judgment. ...
6. In Resurrection after Death.

There is no Christian that does not believe in ALL items above.

haekymbahd:
On the Hebrew verse I wasn't saying it showed that Jesus was saved but it shows that the author of hebrew also beleives someone else who is not Jesus is capable of saving Jesus whom you call the saviour and that is God.


Allah SWT said:
"Nor did those who were given the Scripture become divided until after there had come to them clear evidence."
(QS. Al-Bayyina 98: Verse 4)

"And they were not commanded except to worship Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah. And that is the correct religion."
(QS. Al-Bayyina 98: Verse 5)

Christians believe in ONE God. They also believe that even though God is One, He is also OMNIPRESENT (meaning that God can be FULLY everywhere at the same time). They also believe that God is OMNIPOTENT (meaning that God is infinitely POWERFUL and NOTHING is impossible for Him to do). Christians believe that God manifests in ways suitable for His creations because,
-who can see God and Live
-who can hear God and not become deaf
-who can know God unless God reveals Himself to such.

Except God reduce the magnitude of His power to man, man will vapourise in His presence.

What God has revealed through His words by His prophets is Him visiting man (as flesh and blood) for the purpose of man's atonement of sin.

Hence God's Omnipotence does not violate God being fully in Heaven and on earth at the same time. Neither does it violate the fact that no man can stand God's presence UNLESS God reduces His Glory perceivable by Man.

Phil 2:5-8:
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross."



Let me ask you a question:
1. Did Allah ever speak directly with Mohammed?
2. How?
3. And How come Mohammed had the power and energy to stand to hear the almighty Allah speak?

haekymbahd:
The concept of belief in Islam and Christianity is slightly different.

When Christians say beleive in Jesus what they meant in essence is to accept Jesus as God meaning christians are equating Jesus to Allah.

When Muslims say beleive in Muhammad what they meant is to beleive Muhammad is nothing more than a messenger, Allah is the one we worship.


As Muslims we do beleive in Jesus but we do not see him as God even Jesus whom you called savior pleaded to God to save him from death...

Hebrew 5
7 In the days of His flesh [Jesus] offered up definite, special petitions [for that which He not only wanted but needed] and supplications with strong crying and tears [b]to Him Who was [always] able to save Him [out] from death, and He was heard because of His reverence toward God [His godly fear, His piety, [c] in that He shrank from the horrors of separation from the bright presence of the Father].


Allah SWT said:

"Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 144)

"He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 80)

This is exactly my point.
Mohammed is just a man.

If all my submission is to God, why do I need Mohammed?

I actually rationalized that one can observe the five pillars without Mohammed, therefore why can't one become a Muslim without him?


You quoted Heb 5:7 which seem to suggest that Jesus was saved from death due to His piety forgetting that in context, it means resurrection from the dead (death could not hold him).

The same writer of Hebrews explained what he meant in Heb 13:20
Heb 13:20:
"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,"


Other verses from the book of Hebrews that clarifies Heb5:7 are
Heb 2:9:
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

In other words Jesus died for every man.

Heb 2:14:
"For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

That Jesus through the death of Jesus, He might destroy the devil (who held the power of death as up to that time)


So then, Why should I follow a man (Mohammed) rather than following God directly?
Why couldn't I follow the teachings of the other prophets rather than him?

Thank you

haekymbahd:
As Muslims we beleive in all of this on if you have issues with any of this I am afraid you are not a Muslim...

Articles of Faith
1 Belief in the Oneness of God. ...
2 Belief in the Angels of God. ...
3 Belief in the Revelations (Books) of God. ...
4 Belief in the Prophets of God. ...
5 Belief in the Day of Judgment. ...
6 Belief in Premeasurement (Qadar) ...
7 Belief in Resurrection after Death.


Allah SWT said:

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], We make no distinction between any of His messengers. And they say, We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 285)

"Say, [O believers], We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 136)



Muslims are not expected to make distinctions among messengers of God we believe in Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad as messengers of God e.t.c and we make no distinctions between any and we worship the one God...

Allah SWT said:

"Say, He is Allah, [who is] One,"
(QS. Al-Ikhlaas 112: Verse 1)



Is it possible to be a Christian without beleiving Jesus was a messenger of God?

Thank you sir.
I truely believe in all the articles of Faith listed
1 Belief in the Oneness of God. ...
2 Belief in the existence of Angels of God. ...
3 Belief in the Revelations (Books) of God. ...
4 Belief in the teachings of the Prophets of God. ...
5 Belief in the Day of Judgment. ...
7 Belief in Resurrection after Death.

But I honestly don't believe that Mohammed is a prophet of God. Does this alone disqualifies me becoming a Muslim?

For Christians, they believe that Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away their sins. It would be impossible being a Christian without the atonement of sin through Christ.

1Pet 1:18-19:
"For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:"

So, it would be impossible to being a Christian without believing in Christ.

But Mohammed is just a man, nothing more. For Christians, no prophet including Moses can save a person from damnation to hell.

advanceDNA:
Theres no explanation for it....its just a copy cat of christianity that confesses that God sent jesus as the way to him...

That of Jesus is understandable! At least Christians see Him as God!

ANTIlSLAM:
But those guys are not responding

I hope they will respond by tomorrow morning!

ANTIlSLAM:
Let me check for the tasfir

I'm waiting and hoping!

ANTIlSLAM:
Smiles.. I was once a Muslim but now a Child of God

Then you think my quest is impossible!?
But sincerely, only true practicing Moslems can answer me convincingly. I will also love if they can give me Tefsirs or hadiths that explains it.

ANTIlSLAM:
They are either on low battery or no data to access nairaland

I no dey dia o!

RingRoadMafia:
Are you blind? YES

Any Tefsir or hadith to back it up?

ANTIlSLAM:
It is not possible, allah only recognized muhammad as his one and only messenger simply because only muhammad understand the language of allah

But you aren't a Moslem: you may be scheming to dissuade me from my quest!
I wish knowledgeable Muslims will answer me!

RingRoadMafia:
Are you blind? YES

Haa!

ANTIlSLAM:
But you have issue with the shahada, you must confess muhammad as the one and only messenger of allah to be a Muslim

That's my problem. Isn't it possible to recite the Shahada without including Mohammed in it?

Since no Muslim have helped me on this question, I hereby humbly and sincerely ask

AntiChristian:
compton11:
haekymbahd:
mhmsadyq:
alfarouq:
ictplotter:

Thank you.