₦airaland Forum

omo.olomo,

Your life story in a way reflects mine. I am a Cameroonian who now lives in the UK but lost my faith at the age of about 15. I have very close family ties and friends with Nigeria/Nigerians and have witnessed both countries slowly metamorphosize into a de facto civil theocracy, almost blindfoldedly. In my immediate community of family and friends I know of but two people who are not religious. I can relate with your fears of "coming-out" for fear of being ostracised. It is up to you what you decide to do, but have courage. I have been self-declaring as a non-believer now for 20 years, with some small strain with my relationship with my friends/family. So you are going to have to be very tactful and diplomatic with your relationships if/when you make you lack of belief public. Have courage.

There are great resources on the internet for atheist, freethinkers,agnostics. I encourage you to check them out. Here are some of them;

http://www.richarddawkins.net/
http://www.samharris.org/
http://www.buildupthatwall.com/
http://www.pointofinquiry.org/
http://rationalrevolution.net/
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/
http://ffrf.org/radio/
http://www.infidelguy.com/
http://midwestatheist..com/
http://newhumanist.org.uk/1637
http://www.atheistnation.net/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y
http://www.youtube.com/user/
http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH
http://www.youtube.com/user/AronRa
http://www.youtube.com/user/JohnLArmstrong
http://www.youtube.com/user/Netwriter
http://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t

The Youtude videos are GREAT. I cannot urge you enough to watch them. You will be amazed by the depth of feeling and knowledge out there.

Now, my two great freethinking heros are Thomas Paine and Ingersoll. Listen to these podcast by Ingersoll. That are magnificient.

http://www.podcast.net/show/64460

Enjoy.

What do forum members think about this aphorism from Epicurus (341BC - 270 BC)?

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

This is usually formally stated as the problem of evil.

Basically, how can the existence of evil be reconcile with a good God?

Stimulus,

Thanks. It's been fun

Stimulus,

Thanks for your responses, But try as I might I just could not link them up together well enough in my head to understand them. No fault of yours, of course. My mind is just not wired up understand scriptures the way you do.

I was expecting you would deal with Matt 16: 28 but that was not forthcoming, alas. I shall modified the subject of my mail as promised to reflect the complicated nature of the subject.

How about this one?

Beware of any simplistic interpretation of jesus 2nd coming passages

Stimulus,

Waiting for your response with bated breath.

And why are there so many instances implying the same understanding (return in the generation) with little explanation to caution about a non-literal meaning (I can only thing of the "one day meaning a thousand/thousand meaning one day" as a commentary to the expectation of Jesus's followers)

This is what I mean;

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Does the above verse mean anything other than that Jesus would return before his listeners were dead?.

The literal interpretation means He would return before the all died out. Is there any other non-literal interpretation?

well I will retract my assertion if you can show me that the literal interpretation is not the correct one.

Ok, I seek enlightenment from the bible experts. Go on then. What do these passages mean?

Can you pull me up specifically where I have been lacking in consistency? I would like to know.

(popping out for 30 minutes, will be back soon)

Stimulus,

Thanks for your sensible response. Yes, again, I plead quilty for "jumping to conclusions" like you say. Unfortunately, the standard bible not contain the subtext of its passages. If this is what is required to really understand these complicates passages, then I do not have that knowledge. Enlighten me if you may.

Funny how you are in the habit of missing the centrality of my questions. It matters NOT whether I believe in the bible to discuss it.

I AM SURE YOU DO REFUTE THE KORAN WITHOUT BELIEVING IN IT.

I am simply looking for the facts, internal consistency and how they correspond with the evidence before us.

I used "WE" to refer to our generation. That should not detract from the main thrust of my question, should it. Why are there passages suggesting that Jesus expected his return in the lifetime of his listeners?

Jesus in his own lifetime said he was going to come back IN THE LIFETIME of his listeners. There at least 4 passages in the bible were Jesus is quoted as emphasising that he was going to come back while his listeners were still alive. Here they are;

Matthew 16: 24 -28;

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.



Mark 8: 34 - 38

34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in THIS adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.



Luke 9: 23 - 26

23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, t[b]here be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God[/b].

--
--

etc

In fact, I will let Netwriter explain (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD43LYjf4sY).

SO WHAT ARE WE DOING WAITING FOR HIM WHEN HE MAY HAVE BEEN AND GONE?

I would encourage you guys to examine the work of the biblical textual scholar Bart Erhman. Here are some links to his lecture on YT.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUfSuninCn0&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6m07nmLe60&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZnIJoY3ZY&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDjZK8SMBxE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogG38VaSG3I&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YKMsJvBLag&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QSmdtgehQE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWJdq7MysUk&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TffAToyojg&feature=related



These are attempts to refute Erhman


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stPOVmBscGc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c61WwsZjyU4&feature=related

Stimulus,

Thanks for the summaries and point well made. I also do understand you distinction. I call it church administration Vs spiritual guidance/leadership.

If I read you correctly (feel free to correct me, please), you are in favour of women in one role but not in another.

I agree that women played an important role in the new church in 1st century Israel and it was a shame that leadership roles were not readily open to them given the cultural biases of the time.

I personally think there is a huge problem of interpretation in the NT. How do you deal with the verses where Paul called upon women not to speak in churches?

By the way, I am in favour of re-interpretation of doctrine to fit a new world order, personally I would open all roles to any one who merits them irrespective of sex/race/etc.

The political and civil arena in the UK has been secular for many years now, and for good reason. But Anglican archbishop of Cantebury is now advocating the introduction of Sharia into the arena. Has he not heard of the consequences of Sharia in Nigeria?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM2dC1iWzww

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7237249.stm

C'mon brother,

That thread has 15 pages. Can you summarise the main issues here, please? I can hardly be expected to trawl thru it now to pick out the points you are making.

I have mademy case by drawing from your bible and am prepare to defend my ground anytime and anywhere. What are the questions you want me to respond to?