₦airaland Forum

Skyone, have you given my last post some thought yet?

4HIM,

In fact, here is the statement I made;

Why do the majority of christians and religionists hate learning about science, history and philosophy? When asked to review such material they always shy away. Have they got something to fear in these material?

It says nothing there about christians not making good scientist. I was referring to the habit of only considering one side of the debate when challenge to explain their position.

I don't know if you followed the Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al. case in the US some years ago. Here a classic case of what I am referring to was displayed on the docks for all to see. When Michael Behe, expert for the Intelligent Design side to the stand, he was questioned as to how much recent scholarly material he had read or review. It turned out that he had not read the most important material in the field he was writing about. He so embarrassed himself that he refuse to take the stand again in a subsequent trial. This is the sort of thing I meant. Checkout the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

I am seeing it here on this forum as well.

4HIM, Did you not see the qualifier that I added later? Here it is;

I must admit, my comment was a bit too broad-brush, but the essence is largely true, for the ordinary christian. Admittedly, science is a hard exercise and demands a lot of mental effort to really appreciate it at the intellectual level, not simply at the level of application.

My comments did not mean to say that Christians cannot make good scientist. Far from that. I know some very good Christian scientist that I greatly admire for their work, viz Francis Collins, Kenneth Miller, Simon Conway Morris etc. To use Stephen J Gould phrase, to a lot of people science and religion are Non-overlapping Majestaria (to a degree).



To use the word [b]majority [/b]does not mean ALL.

imhotep:
@therationa
Volumes of documents and critical thinking are both NOT SUFFICIENT to disprove the existence of Christ/God.

Why am I NOT surprised. That when the going gets tough you would resort to your refuge of existence/non-existence argument.

Look at the title, we are not debating that here!!!!!!

skyone:
At first i refuse to answer your unfounded and groundless question but hey i thought it's will be good to expose how far you've been deluded in your fictional world of no proof and evidence.

(1) At first it was proven that there was no such thing as "speed of light" but one mad man came up with 300,000km per second. Now tell me d apparatus he used to come with this rubbish figure.
(2) 1.76days another rubbish
(3) Over a million years ago, only a mad man will believe man talking about million years. Scientist were speculating over this issue, there was no accurate period for this.
(4) 99.9% isn't this madness
(5) Yes and number of times.

Now i hope you will have your meal and stop bugging me.

Well, if you do not have a scientific background, then I commend your efforts for researching this. Well DONE. But why the bitter attitude towards science?

If you were taken ill and rushed to hospital for a scan, would you be calling the scanning machine, nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) "rubbish"? This machine would allow doctors to see the internals of your body to permit a diagnosis.

The NMR machine works on the same principle that you are RUBISHING here. Do you see the flaws in you approach?

I like your response to question 4) viz, 99.9 % of all living things then were wiped out. What then do you think was responsible for re-generating the diversity of life we now have today?

4Him:
therationalist, i think your virulent brand of atheism has blinded you such that you can't see the truth anymore.
There are many christian professors here in my grad school . . . they have not allowed their faith to blind their quest for scientific knowledge even if it means challenging those very biblical theories that they learnt as children.

Where in my comments did I say Christians cannot make good scientist?

4Him:
Now i agree that you are going through a kind of brain freeze.
Isaac Newton was a christian ditto for Charles Darwin. Most of the early scientists were christians.

Lets not go too far . . . the most successful brain surgeon in the world today (Ben Carson) is a christian. My parents have been staunch christians for 30yrs, my mum is a doc and my dad an engineer.

Where are the christians shying away from learning science?

I must admit, my comment was a bit too broad-brush, but the essence is largely true, for the ordinary christian. Admittedly, science is a hard exercise and demands a lot of mental effort to really appreciate it at the intellectual level, not simply at the level of application.

My comments did not mean to say that Christians cannot make good scientist. Far from that. I know some very good Christian scientist that I greatly admire for their work, viz Francis Collins, Kenneth Miller, Simon Conway Morris etc. To use Stephen J Gould phrase, to a lot of people science and religion are Non-overlapping Majestaria (to a degree).

I was speaking about the ordinary christian, of the type you run into daily. I have tried to introduce some of the christian acquintances to popular science literature to no avail. I used to lecture in an Engineering department and had to assess students yearly of their understanding of scientific principles and found those who rejected accepted scientific facts did so on religious grounds.

At the time of Newton and Darwin, dis-belief was not only uncommon, it was punishable by death of imprisonment. Check out what happen to Geordano Bruno. So if they were any unbelievers, it was literally worth their lives to not make their view public. Although Darwn started life as a Christian, he most certainly lost his belief later in life. Newton was not only and Christian, he was also a mystic.

Imhotep,

I understand you are Catholic. What is the Catholic's church position on evolution?


Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are. Source: http://www.catholic.com/library/adam_eve_and_evolution.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

Imhotep,

I understand you are Catholic. What is the Catholic's church position on evolution?


Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are. Source: http://www.catholic.com/library/adam_eve_and_evolution.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

skyone:
@imohep

Honeslty i wasn't interested in evolution until our arguements with Therationa when i read and finally concluded that evolution is completely fictional and has no fact or evidence whatsoever.
It's completely misleading to the likes of Therationa and others and i just shake my head in their deep ignorance they have ended up.

Its a shame.

Skyone, I see you live in Essex. Have you ever visited a museum? What if you go down to the Museum of Natural History in London and see some hard evidence of evolution. Would that change you mind?

Imhotep,

I shall tackle you questions in a subsequent post, but b4 that can you answers these for me pls.

1) Do you know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis, in the scientific sense of the words

2) Have you ever heard of the end-permian extinction?

3) How long ago did dinosaurs become extinct?

Hopefully, that would set the scene about what to discuss.

skyone:
@ Therationa

The site is full of whole bunch of inuendo, No facts and evidence from what i've read so far. Everything was based on theoretical speculation and meaning evolution itself is fictional. i advise you wake up and follow the right way to your salvation.

You said you were a novice of science, right. Do you think you have given the material a fair chance? Do you think you have the expertise to refute evolution? If you have, it pays to read and evaluate the material first.

In which other areas of your life do you rely on the fruits of science? Do you use medicines, transport, satellite phone, TV, etc etc. What make you trust these other products of science but reject so overwhelmingly the theory of evolution?
The method of dating, genetics, geology etc are the same that brings you the medicines, TV images, etc. Don't you think that if this were wrong, it would have been found out by now?

Why do the majority of christians and religionists hate learning about science, history and philosophy? When asked to review such material they always shy away. Have they got something to fear in these material?

skyone:
Ok Therationa

Since i'm a novice to science plz answer this question?
from what creature did you evolved from and why did you suddenly stop evolving?

Skyone, just checkout the site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution for more on human evolution.

imhotep:
@therationa

No living evolutionist is up to 200years old. How come they know so much about things that happened 50,000 years ago.

Showing that creatures are related is neither here nor there. The related-ness of creatures also goes to show the orderliness of God, the Creator.

Lastly, are the evolutionists not also forming the theory of evolution ex eventu

Imhotep, Did dinosaur ever exist on this planet?

Anyone interested in this one?

skyone:
@Therationa
About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.

Please explain the highlighted part of the theory. And does it mean evolution is fictional? and if so does it mean you are created through a process of an illusive form?

Also from what creature did you evolved from and why did you suddenly stop evolving?

I gave you the stages of the "creation" of matter as is currently known to science,, viz;

1- BIG BANG
2- Birth and death of stars
3- Formation of planets
4- Start of live
5- Evolution

Evolution is NOT the Big Bang. Evolution only became effective about 10 billion years AFTER the Big Bang.

What existed before the Big Bang is not known, but it does not invalidate evolution, as they are totally different things.

Pls, do some intellectual work yourself. How about the questions I asked you?

imhotep:
@therationa

- Black Africans have been living in USA for hundreds of years.
- How come their offspring are still as black as you and me, if not blacker??
- How come their offspring have not developed Caucasian features - due to evolution
- Why did evolution stop occurring

Lastly, show us one living creature TODAY that evolved from another creature. Show us before/after pictures of the process.

Imhotep, you do not understand evolution, I take it. Well it occurs at different rate on different organism due to the different selective pressures and mutations they are subjected to. The first homo sapiens to migrate from Africa some 50000 years ago would all have been of darker skin. The genetic evidence for this is VERY VERY strong. Check out the book "A Genetic Odyssey" by Spencer Wells, or the Language of God by Francis Collins.

Black Africans of today in the US live under differring selective pressures than those who first migrated from Africa. BTW, 300 years is not considered long enough for the expression of such macro-features in the human animal.

Evolution has not stopped occurring. Every living thing today is an intermediate between the past and the future. In a million years from now new lifeforms and body plans would have evolved.

For a new organism created by evolution check out the nylon-eating bacteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylonase) whose life became only after 1935, after the synthesis of nylon. It would not have existed before because nylon was not invented until after 1935.

imhotep:
@therationa

Please think about the questions raised below, you might want to add them to you original post ->

1) Grant me, Lord, to know and understand which is first, to call on Thee or to praise Thee?
2) And, again, to know Thee or to call on Thee?
3) For who can call on Thee, not knowing Thee?
4) Or, is it rather, that we call on Thee that we may know Thee?
5) But how shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

- St. Augustine, Confessions, 401AD

With respect, I do not see how these questions relate to spirituality.

skyone:
@Therationa

i asked you a simple question to answer, instead of answering the question you decided to mesmerized your brain, why. Does It mean you are either dumfounded or decided to make fool of yourself.

Now try again and answer my question; who is your creator ( simple and direct plz)

Well, some questions do not admit of a simple answer. If you want a very simple answer, then it is EVOLUTION.

I have got the following questions for you;

1) - What is the speed of light?
2) - How long does it take light to travel from one end of our galaxy (Milky Way) to the other?
3) - How long ago did the dinosaur become extinct?
4) - What proportions of life was wiped out during the end-permian extinction?
5) - Have you ever visited a museum?

In my first post to this forum, I indicated my disgust at the effect religiosity was having at some African universities, particularly Nigeria but also in Cameroon. I was horribly disappointed with the response, in that all the respondents seem to attack me directly or attacked atheism, though I was not making a defense for atheism in that post.

We have witnessed a generation of Africans brought up on a diet of rudimentary education (of the type that enables a barely passable functional literacy), popular and vacuous TV programs and films and hardcore religious dogmatism. At the same time, standards in our institutions of learning have been plummeting thanks to governmental neglect and a cultural detestation of challenging and critical questioning.


Take for instance a thread started by Jen33, titled "Jesus Did Not Exist" https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-39918.0.html. This being a very controversial subject, he post a detail essay on the support from Jim Walker. I have just read the article by Jim Walker and it by and large agrees with mainline scholar opinion on all the fact he presented. Scholar opinion is still divided on some of the interpretations and conclusions. All but one respondents to this post seem to have reviewed the material, as none made a direct refutation of the premise of the article. Here is a flavour of the responses to the post;


[quote author= Nella]I'm realy tired of such arguments!! when will people jus learn 2 believe " Jesus Christ did exist! Jesus Christ has always existed!! Jesus Christ still exists!!
PERIOUD!!!!! END TOPIC, IF You DON'T BELIVE FINE!![/quote][quote author=9ja4eva ]This thread shld be thrown to the bottomless pit.[/quote][quote author=Omo Eko ]what is the use of this thread
This thread should be deleted plz.

ATTENTION SEEKER.
SO WHO DO You WORSHIP? THE DEVIL[/quote][quote author=9ja4eva ]Honestly this thread makes me sick

Am Good[/quote][quote author=star01 ]hell fire awaits yall talkin about CHRIST DOSENT EXIST


Po Deep (m)


This thread deserves no response.[/quote][quote author=mrpataki ]I can't but laugh at such ridiculous topic as this. This goes to show a long way that indeed Christ is Coming!

As to the attention seeker, I suggest you open up your heart to the Love of God, you may be a messenger of the anti-christ today, but you are not yet beyond redemption![/quote]Is this the kind of spirit and attitude education is suppose to impart? Where are we headed as a people? This really is an embarrassment to the Promethean ethos of learning.




=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Danger! Religion May Damage Your Intelligence And Your Mind If Not Your Wealth
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115458.0.html

Does Jesus Know What Causes Sin? Thank Goodness He Doesn't.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115292.0.html

The Dreadful Plight Of Apostasy In The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115114.0.html

Is The European Union Prophesied In The Bible? Is It The Anti-christ?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115053.0.html

Jesus And The Old Laws
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115190.0.html

What Can Be Said To Be Definitely Known About Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114935.0.html

Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html

Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113947.0.html#msg1971669

The Sexual Act And Christian Teaching
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114332.0.html

Scientific Rationalism, Reason And Faith: Which Produces Systematic Knowledge?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114253.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html

On The Historical Reliability Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114215.0.html

When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418

When Was Jesus Born?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529

[b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html

What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html

Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589

God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537

Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343

What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html

Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113871.0.html

What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617

Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

ibksolar:
I Simply don't care what your reasons are:Jen33 and other historians
JESUS IS MY SAVIOUR AND I BLIV THAT>
SE FINI.!!!

The last refuge of the un-thinking; they retreat into the nebula of faith. What is the world coming to?

When and where was the bible written? And by whom?

Why do the majority of mainstream Christians show very little interesting in learning about the source of their foundational beliefs? Is it because they believe that the bible was written by God, ink and parchment in hand, over a period of 2000 years? How could they confidently base their spiritual life on a book whose provenance has little interest to them?

I would like to know what Christians know about the history, socio-political and cultural environment of the region that produced the bible.

=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Danger! Religion May Damage Your Intelligence And Your Mind If Not Your Wealth
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115458.0.html

Does Anyone Not Know What The Permian–triassic Extinction Event Is ?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115553.0.html

Does Jesus Know What Causes Sin? Thank Goodness He Doesn't.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115292.0.html

The Dreadful Plight Of Apostasy In The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115114.0.html

Is The European Union Prophesied In The Bible? Is It The Anti-christ?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115053.0.html

Jesus And The Old Laws
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115190.0.html

What Can Be Said To Be Definitely Known About Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114935.0.html

Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html

Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113947.0.html#msg1971669

The Sexual Act And Christian Teaching
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114332.0.html

Scientific Rationalism, Reason And Faith: Which Produces Systematic Knowledge?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114253.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html

On The Historical Reliability Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114215.0.html

When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418

When Was Jesus Born?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529

[b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html

What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html

Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589

God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537

Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343

What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html

Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113871.0.html

What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617

Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

What lasting Benefits Did Jesus Bring Into The World?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115382.0.html#msg1992157

The Catholic Doctrine, Original Sin And Evolution
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115525.0.html#msg1994039

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

I would like to invite our religious friends to a discussion about the nature of the entity called Spirituality. Spirituality is a word I have seen bandied about a great deal by the religious, but have never ever been able to understand what it really means. I am told for instance that I need spirituality to understand the bible. Does this mean that I have to have become converted first before I could understand? Is spirituality achieved after conversion? Please, help me out.



1- What is Spirituality?
2- Does it exist in the living and does it survive death?
3- Is the universal amongst all humankind? IS the Spirituality of the Hindu the same as that of a Christian?
4- Are there any material benefits of spirituality?

[quote author=Lord_Reed link=topic=114431.msg1992378#msg1992378 date=1203937506]@Gamine
I will agree that there is an unseen realm. I will agree that there is God. Religion however in whatever form seems over elaborate to me.

An All Powerful God that requires tiny pitiful humans to prance around dancing n grovelling at His feet does not seem like a concept I want to take seriously. I mean an All powerful God doesnt need me to validate His power.

All forms of religion seem to me to be only a cover for man to ursup authority over his fellow man using the unseen as an excuse.[/quote]Well said. However, what do you mean by "unseen realm"? Do you mean undetectable? What is the evidence for such a claim? And is the "unseen realm" supernatural, that is, cannot be detected by natural means?

Gfrey:
jst saw your posts and am really amazed "HOW IGNORANT " you're on spiritual issues, d word of God is nt a tool 4 intelluctual foolisheness but a sword for changing mens hearts, no wonder nobody has thot it wise or important enough 2 reply your posts,

if u really want 2 knw who JESUS really is and what he stands for, do this, without any bias in your hart, read the GOSPELS (MATTEW,MARK,LUKE AND JOHN) carefully and patiently that , I guarntee u that before u finish reading it through , u would give up all this arguments of urs that can nt stand the test of time,

"A man with an argument is not at d mercy of a man with an Experience"

i stll lv u any way, bt must let u knw that your thinkn needs 2 b upended cmpltely,

Thankx for your advice, but alas, not needed. I used to be a xian, until I starting thinking for myself. This stuff of "you need spirituality to understand the bible" only sells to the uncritical" Can you try and explain what the passages I quoted mean?

MC Usman:
Jesus was forever a man of peace and humility.

Can you square this up with his own statement, viz "I came not to send peace, but a sword".

Robert G Ingersoll was a prominent freethinker of the 19th century, an ex-soldier and an abolitionist. He produced a great deal of work some of which have been made into podcasts, available on the link below. He present a rich source of material for the aspiring freethinker;

http://www.podcast.net/show/64460

Enjoy

Can anyone believe that a God has walked this earth? If we were visited today by Martians, who are informed that the creator of this world once walked the shores of the sea of Galilee, sojourned with his children about 30 years, then departed without leaving behind a single lasting beneficial legacy, they would certainly be struck by puzzlement as to the nature of this god.

Well, this god, who called himself the Son of God, but also the God, walked this earth at a time of immense ignorance as to the nature of reality, great poverty, debilitating diseases, great social injustices, slavery and wars. But left the scene without dealing with any one of these ills. He claimed to have cured instances of illness such as leprosy, but why did he not eradicate leprosy. That would have been a far better legacy than healing one single isolated case of leprosy.

So, what lasting legacy did Jesus leave behind, a legacy without which the world would be much poorer?

=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Danger! Religion May Damage Your Intelligence And Your Mind If Not Your Wealth
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115458.0.html

Does Anyone Not Know What The Permian–triassic Extinction Event Is ?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115553.0.html

Does Jesus Know What Causes Sin? Thank Goodness He Doesn't.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115292.0.html

The Dreadful Plight Of Apostasy In The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115114.0.html

Is The European Union Prophesied In The Bible? Is It The Anti-christ?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115053.0.html

Jesus And The Old Laws
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115190.0.html

What Can Be Said To Be Definitely Known About Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114935.0.html

Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html

Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113947.0.html#msg1971669

The Sexual Act And Christian Teaching
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114332.0.html

Scientific Rationalism, Reason And Faith: Which Produces Systematic Knowledge?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114253.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html

On The Historical Reliability Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114215.0.html

When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418

When Was Jesus Born?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529

[b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html

What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html

Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589

God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537

Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343

What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html

Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113871.0.html

What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617

Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

The Catholic Doctrine, Original Sin And Evolution
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115525.0.html#msg1994039

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

Reptyle:
Some mothers do have em,

Do you practise Jesus's recommendation? If no, why not?

A salutary lesson in the dangers of unrestrained nationalistic affiliation and religiosity, these being the last refuge of the intellectual cowards. I look forward to the day when being Yoruba, Igbo or Hausa would have absolutely no significance beyond being a name.

Are you still about, skyone?