₦airaland Forum

Stimulus,

What do you mean by saying "defined the efficacy of prayer narrowly"? I just showed you that everything should be possible by your bible. Is that not what your bible says?

You accuse me of evasion. What am I evading?

Many thanks Bawomolo.

Stimulus,

Is it not said somewhere in the bible that: (I paraphrase)

With HIM everything/anything asked in HIS name is possible?

So it re-growing a limb outside the realm of everything/anything?

BTW, lizards do it without so much as prayer

One of the significant sources of puzzlement to novices of the bible is that the christian religions claims there are two separate laws jurisdictions encoded in the Book; those pertaining to the Old Testament and those of the New Testament. And that with the advent of Jesus, the Old Testament laws are no longer in effective. But is this what Jesus himself is said to have said?

If so, at what point in his lifetime were the old laws wiped away? Was at his birth, teens, puberty, adulthood, death, resurrection, ascension, etc?

For people whose lives spanned the period of Jesus's existence on earth, on what premises would they have based their laws? Say someone was born on the same days as Jesus and lived till he/she was 65 years old (died 65CE). What religious laws would they have observed?

Would Jesus have been an observant of the Jewish dietary laws?

This is what Jesus had to say about the Law. Matthew 5: 14 - 27. The relevant verses are 17 - 24, but I have included some verse before and some verse after to forestall any charges of lifting verses out of context ( a characteristically common accusation)


14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


[b]17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
[/b]
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery



Now, this is Jesus recommending that his followers be even more sticklers for the laws than the Pharisees. What does this mean?

That we should observed the dietary laws as the Pharisees did?
That we should stone adulterer as the Pharisees would have recommended?
That we kill our children if they insult or hit us? (Exodus 21;17)
That we perform human sacrifices as called for in Lev 27:29?
That a woman who is not a virgin on the night of marriage be stoned?

Was Jesus really recommending such behaviour?



=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

KAG,


You beat me to this one. GREAT. I can't remember who it was who said this;

Darwin was the greatest liberator of humankind, bar none.

The italics are mine. Remind me if you know. This great man ought to be celebrated the world over.


To quote Richard Dawkins on Darwin - "Darwin make it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist".

I agree with both sentiments.

Alphazee,

How come you are the only one who actually spotted the REAL question on this thread? Many thankz for re-stating it.

Why are you guys getting hot under-the-colar (pun intended ). I was simply advertising some irreverent books for people interested in finding out the alternatives to god-belief. I was not making any slurs or accusations on anyone. So I think you guys have missed the point.

BTW Stimulus, you posted about Flew earlier, not on this thread, but on my other thread about resources for non-believers.

There has been a lot of talk about the usefulness of a religious fabric for the stability of states and nations. However, since the renaissance in Europe most modern states/nations have been developing constitutional governments that tend to marginalise the roles of the clerics and ecclesiastical authorities. Happily, gone are the days when the Vatican held overwhelming sway over civil life in most of the world. Also gone are the following;

The Inquisition
Burning of witches
Summary executions for blasphemy
Burning of books
Slavery
Censorship of thought and science

These clerical acts essentially usher in the Dark Ages in Europe. Today we are all free from these crimes, in large part thanks to the Enlightenment philosophers (Diderot, David Hume, Voltaire, Paine, Spinoza, etc).

For most of the past 2000 years, the majority of the world populations stagnated in poverty, diseases, illiteracy, subjugation, fiefdom, slavery - all in plain sight the clerical authorities.

The past 200 years have seen tremendous leaps in science and technologies, philosophies and a better understanding of the human conditions. The causes of diseases are better understood now thanks to the development of the germ theory of disease; it is no longer believed that natural disasters were caused by the wraths of god on his sinful children; the origin of diversity of life is better understand; the majesty of the cosmos is better appreciated; human longevity has almost doubled.

So in the light of these advances, who would want a backward march back into the days of clerical hegemony? Apparently there are voices around calling for just this. My questions to them are these;

1. If you were involved in founding a state/nation from scratch, which of the clerical traditions (christian, i-slam, hindu, animist etc) would you adopt and why?

2. Would any of the tenets of these traditions be enshrined into the constitution?

3. Can anyone name a golden age of any of the religious traditions - a period that enjoyed the kinds of freedoms, liberties and advances of the modern world?


4. Can anyone name something for which science provided a good explanation, but that scientific explanation has now become untenable and has been replace by a clerical explanation?

5. As a corollary to 4, can anyone name something for which the good explanation was once religious, but that has now been superseded by a better scientific explanation?


In some religious quarters today, we are hearing calls for a return to the dark old days of yore. For instance, the Vatican is advocating the banning of the use of condoms (even in marriages) as a means of contraception and disease control. Apparently, the devastating consequences of AIDS has not registered in the Vatican yet. Some other religious bodies are also calling for a stop to stem-cell research and many other important bio-genetic researches. So are we yet again on the verge of a relapse into the Dark Ages if these religious voices become loud enough?


PS.

It is usually claimed by the uninformed that the USA was founded on Christian principles. Nothing could be further from the truth. The TREATY OF TRIPOLI clearly states that the USA was NOT founded on Christian principles;

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." Source: http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

Imhotep,

Whilst "Homosexuality" is another subject, I challenge you to tell me which of this books is SPECIFICALLY about homosexuality. The titles are a clue.

Just like ANY books on the market YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE THEM. If you have a free unadulterated mind you should be able to assess them for the merits (or otherwise) they contain. Any more than no one has to believe in the bible (or koran etc)

Hopefully, believe should derive from OBJECTIVE analysis of the books.

Imhotep,

Was homosexuality mentioned anywhere on this thread? We are talking about BOOKS, if you have not got the drift.

No sooner had they founded the country on Christian principles than they started the christian thing and enslave many millions of Africans and Native Americans.

If slavery was not condoned in the bible I wonder where they could have got the moral gusto to run this cruel enterprise.

4HIM,

I think you are mistaken yet again. Some of these books have attracted a huge following not least in the USA.

Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" was in the New York Times bestsellers list for more than 52 weeks - a major record for any book. It was No 1 for many weeks as well.

Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens's books have also done very well on sales and have help galvanized the voices of the irreverent in USA and the world.

The godless are now finding their voices and are no longer prepared to be pushed into a corner by the superstitionists.

The population of the godless in the USA is about 15 - 20 million. This is a minority but still a very large number and rising all the time.


On the questions of books about de-converting from i-slam, I know of a few; here we go;

Ibn Warraq "Why I am not a M-uslim"
http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Great One/dp/1591020115/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202811053&sr=8-1

Ayaan Hirsi Ali "Infidel"
http://www.amazon.com/Infidel-Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali/dp/0743289692/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202811925&sr=1-1

Zandra1,

I am glad for you that your "requests and demands are answered my god". Do you know what might have happened had you NOT prayed?

How about people who have never prayed in their lives? Would you expect them to be less "successful" in life?

Check out the Documentary Hypothesis for a better understanding of the narrative in Genesis. The are some good resource on the internet. The leading scholar is a guy called Richard Friedman.

John Adams' (1735 - 1826) sentiments on religion and Christianity are recorded not least in his exchanges with Jefferson;

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced.

Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion? - May 19 1821.

God is an essence that we know nothing of , Until this awful blasphemy[incarnation] is got rid of, there never will be any science in the world.

The question before the human race is whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priest and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.- June 20 1815.


Are these the statements of a man advocating the marriage statehood/nationhood with christianity? Methink not.

President John Quincy wrote of Jefferson in his diary (Jan 11 1831): " If not an absolute atheist, he had no belief inn a future existence. All his ideas of obligation or retribution were bounded by the present life"

Biographer of Jefferson, Fawn Brodie, concurs: "No other statesman of his time could match Jefferson in his hatred of the established faith , His distruct of clergymen as factionalist, schismatizers, and imprisoners of the human spirit continued to his death."

Today, Jefferson's immortal vow of "eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" is engraved upon jis memorial in Washington.


In a private letter to John Adams
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being of his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fables of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"

Letter to Horatio gates Spafford, march 17 1884
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own."

letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, Feb 10 1814
Christianity neither, is nor ever was a part of common law.

Letter to Dr Wood
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition[Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies"


Are these the sentiments of a man sympathetic to Christianity?

4HIM,

Have you checked out the work of Thomas Paine, one of the leading founders of the US Constitution? Check out the "Age of Reason"

4HIM,

For your information, prayer is common to most (if not all ) religions viz xian, mus-lims, hindus, jewish, sihks etc.

4HIM,

You are mistaken about USA being founded on Christian principles. The founding fathers were nothing like the ordinary christians. If anything, they were deists. Check them out

John Adam
Thomas Paine
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
George Washington

In fact it is clearly state in THE TREATY OF TRIPOLI that

""As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.""



http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/buckner_tripoli.html

Praying is a central tenet of the religious life. However the jury is still out as to its efficacy. Is anyone aware of any instances where amputed limbs have regrown thanks to prayer. In fact I will let this website explain it better than I can.

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/video8.htm

Check this out;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQi96Fd5o8Q

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/video8.htm

Please,

Don't forget the Inquisition, Slavery, burning of Witches Europe and USA, burning of the Library in Alexandrian by a Christian mob, all the crimes of the various Popes. In all the rise of christianity was partly responsible for ushering in the Dark Ages in Europe.

Thank Goodness christianity and religiosity is in decline in western Europe.

I would like to share with those non-believers out there some informations about books I have useful in my research about religions, science, philosophy and freethinking. There are reviews about these books on Amazon, so I will just paste the links to the books here;


Philosophy

Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion"
http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618918248/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202749643&sr=8-1

Sam Harris "The end of Faith"
http://www.amazon.com/End-Faith-Religion-Terror-Future/dp/0393327655/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202749725&sr=1-2

Sam Harris "Letter to a Christian Nation"
http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-Nation-Vintage-Harris/dp/0307278778/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202749725&sr=1-1

Christopher Hitchens "God is not Great"
http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202749816&sr=1-1

Daniel Dennette "Breaking The Spell"
http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Spell-Religion-Natural-Phenomenon/dp/0143038338/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202749877&sr=1-1

Thomas Paine "Age of Reason"
http://www.amazon.com/Age-Reason-Thomas-Paine/dp/1595479104/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750012&sr=1-2

George H. Smith "Atheism The Case Against God"
http://www.amazon.com/Atheism-Case-Against-Skeptics-Bookshelf/dp/087975124X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750138&sr=1-1
Why Atheism
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Atheism-George-H-Smith/dp/1573922684/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750138&sr=1-2


Philosophers Without God
http://www.amazon.com/Philosophers-without-Gods-Meditations-Atheism/dp/0195173074/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750258&sr=1-1


David Eller "Nautural Atheism"
http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Atheism-David-Eller/dp/1578849209/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750337&sr=1-1

Victor Stenger "God The Failed Hypothesis"
http://www.amazon.com/God-Failed-Hypothesis-Science-Shows/dp/1591024811/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750407&sr=1-1

Nicholas Everitt "The Non-existence of God"
http://www.amazon.com/Non-Existence-God-Nicholas-Everitt/dp/0415301076/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750474&sr=1-1

Bertrand Russell "Why I am Not a Christian"
http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Essays-Religion-Related-Subjects/dp/0671203231/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750852&sr=1-1

Moral Philosophy

Michael Martin "Atheism, Morality And Meaning"
http://www.amazon.com/Atheism-Morality-Meaning-Prometheus-Lecture/dp/1573929875/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750659&sr=1-1

Erik J. Wielenberg "Value and Virtue in a Godless Universe"
http://www.amazon.com/Value-Virtue-Godless-Universe-Wielenberg/dp/0521607841/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750729&sr=1-3


On de-converting from Christianity

Dan Barker "Losing Faith in Faith"
http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Faith-Preacher-Atheist/dp/187773313X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202750967&sr=1-1

Charles templeton "Farewell to God"
http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-God-Reasons-Rejecting-Christian/dp/0771085087/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1

John Loftus
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Rejected-Christianity-Apologist-Explains/dp/1412076811/ref=pd_sim_b_title_2

Ed Babinski
http://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Fold-Testimonies-Former-Fundamentalists/dp/1591022177/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b


Bible criticisms


Bart Erhman "Misquoting Jesus"
http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202751238&sr=1-1

Richard Elliott Friedman "Who wrote the Bible"
http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202751321&sr=1-3




That's enough for now; some more to follow later.

Thankx


=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

Gamine,

In my fews days on this forum, I would tend to agree with your sentiments. Topics with more rigorous scholarly contents tend to attract very little feedback than those that pull at the emotional strings. What a shame!!!

This is a great educational thread and would like to draw attention to it. Anyone care to comment?

Stimulus,

Thanks for the apologies which I graciously accept.

Stimulus,

I take offense at your accusations of plagiarism. BTW, you are misrepresenting the meaning of the word. Plagiarism is where one copies someone else's work without the correct credits and in fact claims it it their own.

Nowhere in my posts can I be accused of plagiarism. Where I have been making a point and have known some source where that point is made better I have given links to the source. You do not call that plagiarism.

The arguments for/against theism have been around for a long time. In One of my threads I made a reference to Epicurus who lived in the BCE. In that post, my comments were correctly attributed. Is that plagiarism?

I have read on the subject a great deal, from the likes of Epicurus, Seneca, Cicero, Diderot, Laplace, Baron d'Holbach, Ingersoll, Tom Paine, George Smith, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Hitchens, Victor Stenger etc, etc, etc. So the arguments are not new. So it is inevitable that some of the points I make would not be new to you.

The force of an argument is not diminished by the fact that it has been made before.

My last question was the discrepant generational gap between the genealogies in Luke and Matthew. On a very conservative calculation Luke genealogy is 100 years longer than Matthew's. And christains claim that Luke's is Mary's genealogy.

That would make Mary about 100 years older than Joseph when Jesus was born. The numbers just do not add up. That is my point.

Stimulus,

I am aware of the change of heart by Flew. He is said to know favour deism, as a result of the Argument from Design. Now, there is still a long long way from deism to theism. A deist god is nothing like the theist god.

BTW, I would prefer this thread to be a resource for share information rather that a thread debating atheism/theism.

Thanks for your cooperation

Also a great video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA3i2v6ZuCk

Enjoy.

If you are a non-believer who feels isolated from the multitude of believer around you, take courage. There is a wealth of resources on the internet to edify you mind. I would like this thread to server as a poster board for non-believer to share information about their experience and resources to education themselves about science, freethinking, philosophy, history and religion. So, here I go with the first instance of resource on the net I have found very useful.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/
http://www.samharris.org/
http://www.buildupthatwall.com/
http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/
http://www.pointofinquiry.org/
http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/video8.htm
http://rationalrevolution.net/
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/
http://www.infidels.org/
http://ffrf.org/radio/
http://www.infidelguy.com/
http://midwestatheist..com/
http://newhumanist.org.uk/1637
http://www.atheistnation.net/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y
http://www.youtube.com/user/
http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH
http://www.youtube.com/user/AronRa
http://www.youtube.com/user/JohnLArmstrong
http://www.youtube.com/user/Netwriter
http://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t


Podcast by Robert Ingersoll.
http://www.podcast.net/show/64460


Christopher Hitchens talks/debates;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD0B-X9LJjs&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMYL8sF7bQ


I shall next post a bibliography of some of the most interesting books on non-belief.

Thanks

=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

Also watch this video of a Christopher Hitchens debate. Great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMYL8sF7bQ


There are many video of Hitchens debate on YT. Check them out.