₦airaland Forum

Well in the bible, women are consistently treated as second-class citizens at best, at worse as chattel.

Examples;

Lev 12: A woman is unclean for longer after giving birth to a girl child (66 days) than to a male child (33 days)

The possessions of multiples wives and concubines my the patriachs (Moses, Abraham etc)

Giving away of daughter to be sexually mollested, I think by Lot ( can't remember the chapter/verse, but I am sure you know the story)

Proverbs 21, 25, 27. Where it says that it is better to live in a wilderness than in a house with a contentious woman. No similar complaints is made about men.

Is the New testament any better?

1 Cor 11: 3.
1 Cor 13:5,6
1 Cor 13:7-11
1 Cor 14:34
1 Tim 2:11-15

All the above verse are equally derogatory about women. What I meant by biblical consistent (either you are consistently immoral or consistently moral) was that the same standard of the Old testament is preserved in the New Testament, and should be preserved in our modern era.

I rest my case.

Stimulus,

I forgot to add that you have also reaffirmed by contention that the churches are a discriminatory and sexist institutions.

Can I challenge you to replace "woman" with "Africans" or "Blacks" or "Indians" and see how your reasoning stacks up.

Stimulus,

Thank you plenty. You agree with me and with Paul that it in un-biblical for women to teach in church. That has restored my "faith" in biblical consistency.

Biblical literalists are those who believe in the following doctrines;

Creation about 6000 years ago
Adam, Eve and serpent in the garden of Eden
Original Sin
Exodus out of Egypt
The Flood
etc
etc

I though most christian believe in the literal occurence of these events. If these events did not physically occur, then where is the raison d'etre for fundementalist christianity?

Which of the above events do you accept on a literal basis and which do you accept as metaphors/allegories? And what is the criteria by which you decide?

Is that not very obvious?

Any biblical literalist (Genesis literalists) here ready for take on Dr Collins on the subject of genetics and evolution?

With respect, I think you are asking the wrong question. I think the question should rather be "Why do we need religion?"

Has anybody done any further research on the genealogy of Jesus?

ABSOLUTELY NOT. The Great apostle PAUL warned against women speaking in church. Unless this church is prepared to have a non-speaking female pastor who must always defer to her husband.

Muhammedans are atheist too just like christians.

I have just finished watching the video and am very impressed with Dr Collins. He is an intellectually sophisticated christian who does not find evolution threatening to this christian beliefs. In fact, he is actively promoting the idea of not literally interpreting much of the Old Testament as this leaves one subject to future scientific refutations. In that degree, I wholeheartedly agree with him.

Not all christains are opposed to the idea that humans have evolved from pre-existing humanoid life-forms. Dr Francis Collins, the leader of the Genome project is one such scientist. He is vehemently opposed Intelligent Design arguments and favours a theistic evolution understanding of diversity in nature. Watch this video of Dr Collins.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y

Which jewish king was cursed and prophesided upon by a prophet of God never to have off-springs, but apparently ended up being one of the ancestors of Jesus, according to the genealogies of Matt and/or Luke?

The YT videos about Richard Dawkins being stumped by the questions about mutation are the result of Intelligent Design advocates (ID'iots) doctoring the initial interview. I have got a link to the initial interview but unfortunately I cannot find it at the moment.

For those of you Biology majors, you might find this articles most interesting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/feb/09/darwin.dawkins

http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,2236,Why-Darwin-matters,Richard-Dawkins

Anybody interested?

Anyone would like to comment on the linked video? C'mon guys, the video is most fascinating

4HIM,

The reason I ask these questions is to satisfy my curiousity. If I was reading Soyinka, Achebe or Shakespeare and found a narrative with such discrepant account I would want to know why the story had been written in that fashion. I think it behooves me to apply the same reasoning to the bible. Don't you agree? You would not want me to just believe blindly, would you? I might as well also believe the claims that Rama, or Horus or Zeus were/are gods.

There are still problems with ascribing Luke's genealogy to Mary. Luke's account has 43 generations while Matt's has 28, a difference of 15. If we assume conservatively that on average first children were born to women aged 13 years old (This is very reasonable according to the christain sociologist Rodney Stark - http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Christianity-Marginal-Movement-Religious/dp/0060677015/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202552535&sr=8-2)
that would make Luke's span 195 years longer than Matthews.

Now, I will be even more generous and call this 100 years rather than 195 years. This means that Mary's generation would have to have been 100 years older that Joseph's; or simply Mary was 100 years old when Jesus was born.

This does not accord with the traditional jewish custom of marriage, where grooms were usually much older than the bride. So somehow, this account has to be reconciled, not by appealing to the claim that Luke's accounts for Mary genealogy, because the numbers do not make sense - but by other means.

I shall deal with the issue of extending the genealogy right back to Adam in the next post.

I pity those African who never had the chance to be saved before christianity came to Africa.

Anyone watched this video yet?

4HIM,

Am not insulting anybody, nor Jesus. I am simply questioning the verisimilitude of the accounts. The person of Jesus stands apart from the written stories about him.

4HIM,

Please, could you refrain from ad Hominins. I am making my point without being insulting to you. I thought you were a christian.

Luke's genealogy from Jesus;

Jesus
Joseph
Heli
Matthat
Levi
-
-
-

Matthew's genealogy from Jesus

Jesus
Joseph
Jacob
Matthan
Eleazar
---
---
---

I got this from a KJ bible. They both converge to Joseph, then Jesus. Where is Mary mentioned.

Now, also both of the Luke and Matt accounts converge on King David. Matt does so after 28 generations, but bizarrely Luke account has 43 generation, a difference of 15 generations. If the average life expectancy in 1st century Israel was about 40, then 15 generations amounts to about 600 years.

So for this to work, one of Jesus's parents would havehad to be 600 years older that the other. How BIZARRE.

I really worry about the future of an Africa led and largely populated by the likes of the christian members of this forum. I raised this subject so that we may discuss the decay in our universities, a palpable thread to our civilisation. I was not making an argument for atheism.

I think I have been proven right in that the religious do not care about intellectual honesty and development. None of the 5 points on my post have been addressed. What kind of future are we going to leave our children.

Ecrasez l'infame.

We are doomed

Every christian is an atheist too. Every christian is an atheist with respect to the gods of Hindu, Sikhs, Muhammedans God, Zeus, Mithras, Horus, Dionysus, african gods, etc, etc. When the christian understand why they reject these gods, they will understand why I reject their god(s).

Muhammedans are atheist too just like christians

Nowhere in the genealogies of Luke and Matt is Mary so much as mentioned. I challenge you guys to show me a reference to Mary in Luke and Matthew's genealogies.

Is this a touch of desperation or what? Shouldn't there be some semblance of veracity in the stories of the bible?

The first thing is to combat gullibility, credulity and belief in superstitions with educations in scientific rationalism. That would dry up the pool from which these venal individuals draw.

This is a very educational video(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8edyoZFW-Lg). Please watch and marvel at the beauty of science.

Was jesus's grand-father Jacob (Matt 1:1-16) or Levi (Luke 3: 33-38). Why are the genealogies in Luke and Matt so divergent with little or no correspondence? One has 27 generations to David and another has about 43.

By the way, what is the point of proving that jesus was a descendant of david when he is alleged to not be genetically linked to david (virgin birth)?

If jesus DNA was available today, what would an analysis reveal about his parentage?

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Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

Longman83,

You have just made my case for me; you have just demonstrated just how monstrous you god is. Is this sort of individual worthy of worship and praise?

I lifted Romans 13 verbatim from the bible in which the context is clear obvious. God is responsible for establishing the likes of Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin etc even though he would have known (given his omniscience) that these monsters were going to commit their calamitous acts. WHAT A LOVING GOD TO ALLOW SUCH THINGS.

You say god allows these acts although he is displeased with them. What sort of logic is this? This reminds me of Epicurus (341BC - 270 BC) who said;

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

Imhotep,

Imagine you are charge with a crime and taken to court. Don't you think it is the onus of the prosecuting authorities to prove that you committed the crime. If they cannot prove to the jury that you committed the crime you do not have to say a thing in you defense.

Likewise it is the onus of the theist to prove that a god exist.


Christians claim their god has the following attributes; omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotent and omnibenevolence. It is logically impossible to have all of these attributes.

By the way, how did they know about these attributes from god?