₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus died for salvation of the entire human race but the chance to benefit must start from among the Jews {Matthew 10:6} before it could extend to other nations {Matthew 15:24 compare to and it's the Jews that will bring it to you. Zechariah 8:23
Only those that believe in Jesus will benefit globally! John 3:16

In those Bible verses and anywhere else in the same Bible, the Jews were never told a Jesus or Messiah would come to die for their sins as part of the any New covenant.

They were also never told that unless they believe in Jesus, they would never benefit from his death.

So, did Jesus come to change God's plan?

Obafavour:
What is stopping the scientist from waking the dead? As long as there are things that are beyond scientific knowledge, atheist have no say in disproving the existence of God. .

Science has its limitations, and It's neither magic, nor does it give superpowers to those who study it, to raise the dead.

Morever, science is not synonymous with atheism. It's neutral or agonistic and not concerned with proving or disproving the existence of God or the supernatural.


Science is for investigating the natural world or what is only observable, through certain methods, in order to provide rational explanation for it.


Anyone can study the sciences and be very good at it. Ben Carson, a theist, is an example you cited.

So there's no need to disparage it or fight it simply because some persons are using it as validation for there non belief .

We even have theist who use science as support for what they belief.

Scientist should tell us how life started and how earth was like this and the beauty of nature, intelligence of man knowing good from bad having conscience. If it wouldn't be a guess work.
And why we evolve to become humans and we still have ape that look like their ancestors.

Scientists have been busy trying to answer some of those. They wouldn't answer all or would want to, especially the ones that has to do with good or bad

The answers they have provided for the ones they have investigated and still investigating, has helped us to understand the world better than our primitive forbears who used myths and other similar stories as explanation for the natural world.

As I already mentioned, there are certain things science would never answer for us, and it's due to its limitations.

But we shouldn't not use that as an excuse to be certain that something exist somewhere, either because someone we respect tells us so, or we read it in a book we regard as divinely inspired.

If you think anything is beyond scientists to investigate, then at least there should be some kind of evidence, not necessarily scientific evidence, for you to be sure that thing is true or real.

HisSplendor:
Whether approximately spherical or otherwise, the earth isn't flat as was previously assumed.

Whether Jonah swallowed the fish or the fish swallowed him, it doesn't matter as long as there was a miracle.

No sense.

HisSplendor:
Whether approximately spherical or otherwise, the earth isn't flat as was previously assumed.

Whether Jonah swallowed the fish or the fish swallowed him, it doesn't matter as long as there vwas a miracle.

No sense.

HisSplendor:
You don't need to believe anything.

All you need to do is to employ the right tools in researching the information.

Scientists didn't believe the world is a sphere until they got the right tools to verify the claim. Did their unbelief stop the world from being a sphere?

Using logic to undertake spiritual research is like using the naked eye to find microbes in the air.

The earth is not a sphere, but approximately spherical.

You don't know the difference .

HisSplendor:
My friend you talk too much without being really on track.

Your interpretations are actually too offpoint. To you having spiritual experiences before dying means visiting heaven before death. And a lot of other misrepresentations that you have makes it very difficult to engage you without stating from the rudiments. One must first try to define different concepts and ideas before putting forward a subject matter in a discussion with you otherwise, that person would end up not communicating.

You're not getting anything I'm saying to you because you have a different understanding of the concepts I'm talking about.

I've been having very smooth discussions with Atheists on this Forum for a long time, and for the first time, I'm meeting someone who thinks about heaven when we talk about spiritual experiences. I can't even remember all the many misconceptions I've encountered with you.

Let it rest brother. I can't start doing any prolonged discussions based on rudiments.

I already passed my message.

Thanks for your time and have a nice day.

Ad hominem from beginning to the end .And the worst part, you're unable put your thoughts down clearly.

You have struggled to discuss fully what you claim to know.

The op you created, you have since abandoned it for "the experiential, individualistic, dieing old men stories , OBEs "and other claims, you were unable to throw further light on.

Next time choose a topic you can freely discuss. This one is not within your range.

No reasonable message has been passed by you. You deceive yourself if you think have.

Have a nice day too.

HisSplendor:
You're wrong from top to bottom.

And infact, your last statement shows you know nothing.

Dirty tricks as usual to make it seem you know something.

Prove that I am wrong from top to bottom and also prove that I know nothing with my last comment.

You have been making similar comments that you refuse to substantiate.

You can't accuse somebody of something and when ask to prove it , you run away. That's what you do each time.

In christianity it's never taught anywhere that you should or can experience heaven before you go there.

Experience of heaven by those who claim to have been there through OBE is what you're banking on.

You don't know anything about OBES. I can assure you of that. If you want to use OBEs as support for your argument that Christians can visit heaven before they die, create another thread and invite me.

HisSplendor:
While I can draw a parrallel, you may not be able to do the same.

That dead people have no experience in the afterlife isn't a statement of fact. That's hypothetical.

The mistake you make is thinking that the universe is made up of only the logical realm. The logical realm is insignificant in the scheme of things. While the unseen realm is the Real Realm. The logical realm is just an illusion.

Logical realm? What you're discussing is beyond you.

You don't possess the right vocabulary to discuss it.

Just drop this and do some further readings and return later when you're well equipped with what to say

HisSplendor:
no

When a discussion is ongoing, it develops as it progresses.

The starting point of a discussion is just the foundation. It could expand and even bring in several unexpected subject matters.

I know what I wrote and why I wrote it. I've been having profitable discussions with those who understand it. The moment a reader among many other readers begins to tell a writer that he doesn't understand what he wrote, it's definitely clear that the reader has refused to comprehend.

So, let it rest brother. I already passed my message.

This man you're very funny.

Who are the people that think you have made any sense if not those who also believe sheepishly like you?

Show me the profitable discussion you have been having with others who think you made any sense on this thread.


You're have been throwing about empty words and statements of me not understanding you just because you have failed to defend your op.

It's not helping you. You can't be a judge in your own case.

If you're so sure I don't understand anything, then why have you failed to let others following ,see clearly what I don't understand.?

The esoteric books I believe you have been reading alongside your Bible has created confusion in your mind.

What experience of heaven have you had that you have been indirectly referring to?

It's only esoteric students and those from some certain religion, like Eckankar, that would tell you that you can have an experience of heaven while still alive.

Christianity doesn't teach that.

AntiChristian:
Of course a scan would capture your human body nowadays! So which camera exists back then to record Angels?

And Qu'ran is a miracle in itself. It can't be recited by a human unlettered in just about 23 years!

Stop the comparison between Islam and Christianity! They ain't similar.

So the reason we should accept the Quran as true, is because no camera to record the event between Muhammad and the Angel?

I hope you are aware you're not talking to the sheepees in your mosque or wherever you usually gather. Those ones don't question anything you tell them.

Can you use this same argument to defend anything in a law Court ?
That the reason a judge should accept your testimony as true , without any witness or evidence to corroborate it, is because no camera to record it ,and expect to receive a favourable judgement?

Muhammad just didn't recite the Quran for straight 23 years on his own. Instead it was believed, an angel kept appearing to him intermittently for 23 years and yet ,not for once was there a single witness to confirm what transpired.

Oh! ,things only a believer can believe.

The comparison I have made of both rellgion is correct. They're from the same source; Abrahamic , but with different set of beliefs the adherents have been indoctrinated to accept as true.

And that's why you ,for instance, believe the Quran is true because you have been made to accept without questioning that an unlettered Muhammad got it from an angel, whereas it wouldn't have made any difference if he was lettered. I believe you have never for once considered this.

Would you have rejected the Quran if Muhammad was lettered? Certainly not.

Muhammad ,from what we are told ,was unable to pen down the Koran because he was unlettered and that it was some scribes who helped him .

But that was a lie. It was Muhammad who probably got inspiration for some parts of the Koran through personal reflections in the cave (that's, if it was true he was in any such cave) in conjunction with the scribes, who borrowed extensively from other sources, that were responsible for your Koran. No angel was involved.

The lie of an angel was to make you accept it as divinely inspired. Every rellgion with a religious text have used the same method of divine inspiration from an angel or God.

Go and investigate them and your eyes would be open.

AntiChristian:
Same way you can't confirm that you have a brain in your skull!

The messages he received then was unprecedented and unknown. He was even unlettered!

In this time and age, you don't even know that with an head CT scan and other devices, you can actually confirm if YOU have any brain to think in your skull!!!

I can now see why you're gullible enough to believe that account.

The messages and the fact that he was unlettered is not enough confirmation an angel spoke to him.

Muhammad was not the only unlettered prophet or religious figure in the past who inspired a religion. So, why was his own special?

The people who created your rellgion have told you that so you can believe what is contained in the Koran.


You have no way of knowing an angel spoke to Muhammad.

You have spoken as a believer and I understand.

AntiChristian:
Of course it actually did happen!

How do we confirm that an angel spoke to Muhammed?

AntiChristian:
And those who don't believe in anything still find something to believe in according to their whims!

How is that same?

This has no bearing on the discussion at hand. You want to deflect.

I said, both you and the Christians you mock are doing the same thing: believing what your rellgion has made you to believe and it doesn't matter what it's. What matters is that you believe something.

Or you want to argue that an angel dictating the Koran to Muhammad actually happened?

AntiChristian:
This is ignorance at it's peak!

There are over a hundred if not thousands differences between Christianity and Islam but you are blind to it due to ignorance!

They are not the same thing under different narratives!

Christians don't believe in Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wasalam) and their beliefs in the son of Mary is much different from ours!

The same in the sense that you believe what your rellgion tells you is the truth.

Why should Christians believe in Muhammad when it's not part of the things they're told to believe?

Both Muslims and Christians are believers.

AntiChristian:
Everything God created are his servants particularly humans, spirits and Angels.

No servant of God came to die.

John 3:16 did not call him a servant!

Jesus is the second God of your Godhead trinity! If he's a servant then Holy spirit is also a servant and only the father is the master.

So why would the father associate two servants with himself in his godhead lordship? This makes no sense!

Christianity should be a mirror for you to see that there a lot of things in your own religion, Islam, that doesn't also makes sense.

Both religion are the same. The only difference is what is contained in the different religious text.

If Muslims were using the Bible, you would be defending what's contained in it and arguing as you're doing now, that God sacrificing his son makes sense.

You wouldn't see anything wrong in it just as wouldn't see anything wrong in an angel dictating the Koran to Muhammad. You accept without any evidence that it actually happened.

Each time you come up with a thread like this, I always ask myself why can't this man see that he his making a mockery of the same thing he is doing.
Christianity and Islam are abrahamic religions: the same thing but different narratives.

JASONjnr:
It's always their hatred for Christianity....


I've always wanted to dare an atheist...A true one..To go to the North, near a mosque and proclaim his disbelieve openly there....Tell the people that there's no God or Allah...

Just try it....I'd love to see something...

Seun, I dare you particularly...

Can you as a Christian go near a mosque in the core Northern part of Nigeria and loudly proclaim that "Jesus is the only way", and tell them all Muslims are going to hell since they're not worshipping the true God?

HisSplendor:
I think the problem here is that you're unable to draw a parralell between the story and the argument.

As I've said before, the journey they took symbolizes death. That's as far as the story goes. Are we limited to just the story even when reality offers more incidences?

Another confusion here. What is the argument?

The one you started at the beginning which I have responded to or the one you're trying to bring in through the backdoor?

As far as the thread is concerned, we are limited to what the op has offered. You have not been able to defend it and been talking out of point.

I said you misapplied the story and I was correct. Your responses have confirmed that.

If you want to discuss your "experiential and individualistic journey to heaven and back, make that clear or create another thread to discuss that

HisSplendor:
Man, from what you type up there, i can see that there are many things you don't understand.

While you're talking about the OP, you do not seem to understand that we started from the OP and have progressed. You're trying to draw the discussion back again to where we started from.

Please, read up again before replying.

You're actually taking to yourself when you say I don't understand.

I have been responding to the conclusion made in the op which you created.

Everything I have replied is with reference to the story and the point you made from it.

So what is it again I don't understand?

You're the one who has refused to defend what you declared at the beginning, and no longer making any reference to it.

If you want to discuss something entirely different, then make that very clear and not using subterfuge to do so, and when I don't respond the way you want, you then accuse me of not understanding

I understand you and clearly. You have failed and woefully and just trying to save face with what you're doing now.

Stick to your op or create another thread if you want to discuss something else.

HisSplendor:
You can't experience a journey before taking the journey.

Only when you're going there for the first time.

Please answer the question I asked. Don't avoid it with this. The men, have they been there before ? Yes or no

Death is a journey. We're not talking about death right now.

You're really confused. The op discussed what we may expect after death, and since nobody knows, buy " a red cap" . Is that not so? Focus on the op please.

We're talking about spiritual experiences of which death is just a part. You can have spiritual experiences before dieing but you can't die before you die. Hope you understand?

My friend just rest. You don't know what you're talking about.

Everything you replied has nothing to do with the op.

And just look at the confusion you typed.

"You can have spiritual experiences before before dieing" what kind of spiritual experiences? Why can't you specify it and let's see if it relates with the op.

And who has said people can die before they die?

Why did you not make all of these submission after narrating the story to see if it would fit.

You're desperately trying to bring in what is extraneous to the op because you have simply lost it.


Does Christianity teaches that people can experience heaven or see God before they go there?

You're delving into esoterism and no longer discussing Christianity.

HisSplendor:
Even if I didn't say it directly, kindly provide evidences of the indirect statement. I personally have a before-death experience. So, how would I now say "it can only be experienced after death.' Again, you don't seem to have a good grasp of this discourse.

Are you now running away from the story you shared and what you made of it.

The 100 men where embarking on a journey to a place they have never been to before, and were advised to buy "a red cap" due a rumored king on the way

What does this tell you ?

Do they have any previous experience of the far distant land there were journeying to?

Yes or no

The correct answer to that is going reveal between me and you who has a thorough grasp of the discourse

I wait.

Maynman:
“I don’t know or believe that the adherents of these thousands of religions have personal experiences.” That’s what they claim, it’s all a CLAIM that they can’t prove to others.

That was also what zeus worshippers thought and they also claimed they had experience, till we found out it was all mythology.

You’re not far from discovering the truth about your religion either.

He's really not far from discovering the truth of his religion.

HisSplendor:
When did I tell you that personal experience is proof?

However, your personal experiences can stand as proof for your own self. Not necessarily for others. Hence, others must find their own proofs.

But at the beginning you used your own personal
experience, which is not objectively proven, to judge others as unwise.


Focus on yourself and let others experience what they may experience or not experience..

You're not even sure of yours to start with.

HisSplendor:
Before I continue with you, first point to me where I said it can only be experienced after death. This shows you don't understand anything we've been discussing.

You have come again. Must you mention it clearly. People can make correct deductions from what you have written.

Your explanation makes us understand it can only happen after death hence the reason you adviced buying "a red. cap" incase..

If there's certainty due to having experienced it personally yourself, you would not speculate for everyone as to what might happen when they experience later. There's no evidence whatsoever from anything you have been explaining that you have had any such experience before now.

Everything you have explained is from the position of a believer of something that you think is true. You have not had that experience you want your followers to accept.
.

Even if you have had it, explain how you were able to validate the experience to be true.

For the umpteenth time, you don't understand your own op.

HisSplendor:
You're not getting it. Everyone can experience it here if they search for it. The experience is personal to those who search. It is a foretaste of what everyone MUST eventually experience after death.

You're the one who's not getting it. What's is it everyone can experience here if they search for it?

You said it can only be experienced after death hence your advice we buy "a red cap" incase.

Why changing the goal post?

I believe you can now see why I said you don't understand your op.

If people can experience it here according to you, then we don't need to buy any "red cap" since we can prove the existence of such a place before we go there.

HisSplendor:
You can't make a point or understand what people write without seeing things from their perspectives.

What you call imaginary is experientially to some people. It's only imaginary to you because you've not experienced it.

The experience is individualistic too. it's you and your life. And of course, death itself is subjective.

If you want to be clear, listen to people who have had a near death experience. Or, go near a dieing old man on his death bed. You'll learn many things by so doing.

If you had made it clear at the beginning that your "experience of heaven " was subjective, nobody would have bothered arguing with you.

But you didn't do that and tried the make it seem everybody is expected to experience exactly the same thing after death, and then further used what's subjective personal experience, not proven, to label every believers as wise and non believers unwise.

What you did was to use what is personal subjective experience to pass judgement on others. That's not reasonable and the sad thing, you want to deny everything.


I still repeat, you don't understand your own op.

HisSplendor:
So, you come to this forum only to sound intelligent and not pass a message?

Let me break it down for you.

It's experiential. You can experience it. It's relational. You can relate with it. It's individualistic, you are the only one who knows what you see or feel.

Now having said that. Can you now prove to me that heaven is an imaginary place? At least, before affirming that to yourself, you must have proved it? Or are you dealing with an unproven affirmation?

It's still meaningless as it concerns the op. Your submission concerns a large group of persons that are expected to act the same way, buy "red cap" because they're going to experience the same thing ; their heads cut off by a certain rumoured king who lives in a certain land "heaven" , and with all of them experiencing it only at death. That's not individualistic or subjective experience in any way.

I keep saying it, you don't even understand your own op.

An imaginary place,"heaven" is a no place because there's no evidence for it. And that's why I affirmed what I have affirmed.its as simple as that.

Why do you find it difficult to understand this simple explanation and keep asking for proof?


Look up a dictionary to learn the meaning of the word, imaginary .You don't seem to know what it means.

What you have been attempting to do is to place the burden of proof on me for what you claimed which I rejected for lack of evidence. This is not smart.

HisSplendor:
We're talking about an abstract and intangible realm that's fully open to research. Meanwhile, it's also an experiential and relational realm very individualistic in nature.

Find your own proofs because I'm not responsible for your life.

And if you can't make the research, then keep on affirming your unverified claims if that's the wisest decision you can make.

You're making me laugh . What's the meaning of "experiential and relational realm and very individualist in nature? You know it's meaningless, but just typed it to sound intelligent.

You don't need to do that. It wouldn't help you,but instead prove you lack the capacity to express yourself intelligently.

I have not made any unverified claims, I only made you understand that your heaven is imaginary as there's no evidence for it. That was a rejection of your imaginary destination..


You say you have evidence for it, then provide it so I can start making arrangements to buy a red cap" to prevent my head from being cut off,.

HisSplendor:
Even in many cases, deductions could be wrong.

I said "if in case, there's a God out there..." Now tell me how you deduced an assertion in that 'If'?

Would you now prove your assertion?

Please show my where I contested" if there's a God out there"?

Is heaven the name of your God? I only said heaven is imaginary and I have explained what I meant to prove you're imagining it, the destination.

HisSplendor:
Why don't you take responsibility like I did, and find proofs for yourself?

Proofs for what?
Why don't you answer that first?

HisSplendor:
You see, I never waited for anyone to prove anything to me. My own life is my own responsibility.

I searched for proofs and I found. It's foolish never to search and yet make unverified assertions.

You don't need to expressly state something before people can conclude that you have declared something. That's called deductive reasoning.

You can't hide behind "I didn't assert anything" when you obviously did.

You have made your readers understand that there's a place people go to after death, which in Christianity is heaven, but what you're not sure of, is what they would find there, and so the advice they buy"a red cap" Is that not so?

If there's no such destination, and you didn't assert it, why already celebrating that believers are wiser and others stupid. You composed something you don't even understand.

The men in the story where set for a journey to distant land, and if there is no such destination in the first, is it not madness to buy a cap? Why should they buy a red cap if they are going nowhere?

Please answer me?

I have not rejected any God represented by the king in your story, but the destination, which in Christianity is heaven. Or where else are they expected to meet the king?

You just made a vague statement of having found evidence for something without mentioning what for. Is it for heaven or God?

Don't confuse yourself. I am not in a position to prove anything to you. You declared something to be true ,but now denying it .Maybe you don't even understand your own op

HisSplendor:
You're not asked to prove the word. You made an assertion with all authority. It's the assertion that needs to be proven.

Don't run away from what you started.

If you think something is real or might exist and have not found any single evidence for it, then what you think only exist as a thought in your head and the heads of those who also think like you.

This is what it means for something to be imaginary, and that was why I asserted confidently that your heaven only exist as imagination.

The key thing here is evidence. Don't ever make the mistake of ignoring that, if not you would accept as truth any nonsense anybody tells you and end up confused .

And evidence doesn't always have to be scientific evidence, but at least something that can help others to validate your claim.


You're the one, not me, who has to prove that your claims are true or worth considering by providing any kind of evidence that can help to convince your followers.

Untill you do that, your heaven only exist as a thought in your head.

Dtruthspeaker:
There is nothing to prove. Like you, by their speech (posts) we know them.

Balderdash