₦airaland Forum

tctrills:
You have a lot to understand
Adam and Eve's fall brought far more blessings than your so-called curse. Their fall brought about Jesus Christ, resurrection, and Immortality for all mankind. We are blessed with the knowledge of Good and evil just like God. We also have the ability to become perfect like God thanks to the fall.
So while both of us can keep making fun of each others logic, ask yourself, wether all these blessings I have outlined do not outweigh your perceived curse.

You're mixing two opposing view points ,gnosticism and Christianity to interpret the Genesis account in order to answer the op. Nothing wrong with that.

But the problem is that you want to make it seem as if the church interprets it the same way. This is deceptionon your part.

Can you preach that Adam and Eve disobedience( that's what church doctrine says) is a blessing in any Sunday school or from any pulpit? You have refused to answer that each time I ask.



I already said the story is an allegory and it has nothing to do with the so called "original sin" that would need a sacrifice to erase.

If you interpret the story as a blessing for humanity, I agree also, then I ask you where is the sense in Jesus coming to die again for what is already a blessing for humanity so that God can forgive what?

Why not just own up to what you're trying to do? You can deceive others but not somebody like me.

If you feel the church well known interpretation of the Genesis account doesn't make sense, why don't you do the needful by accepting you have outgrown the religion instead of looking for a way to rationalise things so you continue to believe.

This is exactly where you are right now.

tctrills:
Your logic is actually twisted. Christians of all ages believe that Christ died for sin yet they strive to do better and improve their lives. The notion that Christ's sacrifice would make Christians irresponsible people is so wrong. There is no evidence that Christians do not take responsibility when compared to other belief systems.

For your other comments, I don't see the need to keep going round in circles with you. If human sacrifice is an abomination to God, he would not have tested Abraham with an evil. God is not the Devil.

You win and congratulations since you believe that it was God's plan to set up Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit so he can accuse them of disobedience and place curses to increase the pain of the woman during childbirth.
Then centuries later to forgive the original sin he set them up for, he sent his son to die so he can forgive the act of disobedience. Very good reasoning.

Talk you of and logic. I laugh.

And yea, still not showing you understand anything about the so called Abraham's sacrifice..

Modified. Do you know what it means to take responsibility for one's action?. No . You don't. You take responsibility by not waiting for somebody to die to forgive you or bear the consequences of what you have done

tctrills:
You have the example of Abraham and the example of Jesus, what more examples do you need to see that you are wrong? And if you are uncomfortable with our discussion, you can end it. The most sacred even in Christianity is the mortal sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Since you are not a Christian, I should be telling you the Christian doctrine but I can understand why you are uncomfortable.

You asked why should anyone worship a God who wants human blood to be spilled before he can forgive anything. This is the best question you have ever asked. He already answered it. The wages of sin are death. Your sins have brought death upon you. Only a kind and loving God would give you his beloved son to save you from death.

Again, for you non-Christians, your view of death is very different from the Christian view of death. So yes, we worship a God who saved us from death by offering his most precious gift to mankind.

Look at you again. I asked where in the Bible was anybody' actually sacrificed for the God of Israel with the people doing the sacrificing saying what it was for . Why is it difficult for you to understand this simple question.

Abraham never really sacrificed Isaac so don't mention that one. An alternative was provided at the last minute. I kept mentioning this so you can understand exactly why the God of Israel instructed him to proceed with it in the first place. It was a test of faith. The action should not be the main focus, but this has continued to fly past your head each time I mentioned it. You can't simply grasp it.

And in case you don't know,Jesus sacrificing himself for your sins is Pauline theology . Jesus in the Bible never said he came to sacrifice himself for the atonement of sin ,neither did God in the new testament said he sent Jesus to come and die for anybody's sin.

It might be comforting to believe that someone else has died for your sins, but in the end it would only lead to not taking responsibility for own life.

Your Bible says what you sow is what you reap . If you want to mock your God, you can reject that and live your life the way you want it believing some has paid the price.

Me uncomfortable? You're just projecting. All of these started with you giving an unchristian interpretation of the Genesis account. You claimed that God set up Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit in the garden so he can later send his son to come and die for what he set them up for. It was God's plan according to you.

Can you teach this kind of thing in any Sunday school or from a pulpit where other Christians are gathered and not be seen as a devil preaching heresy? Answer me.

So, I am not uncomfortable, but no longer interested in the conversation as you're just going round in circles while avoiding dealing with the illogicallity of what you said at first about Adam and Eve.

I have insisted the story is an allegory which you're misinterpreting.

You have avoided discussing that ,but have craftily succeeded steering the conversation away in a different direction and now preaching. Sorry, I am not uncomfortable, but no longer interested . Thank you.

tctrills:
Well, I wouldn't say rude things like you. But clearly, you don't understand. Even though God was testing Abraham's faith, he would never ask you to do something evil. God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son because it was not a sin before him.

As for the detestable thing that did, it was sacrificing humans to other Gods. That's all. He sacrificed his own son in human form so clearly, Human sacrifice could not be the sin here.

I don't think you know the meaning of the word ,rude.I said you have shown that you don't understand the Bible very well. You have been misinterpreting Bible verses because you don't really understand them.

And you have repeated the same thing in your latest reply. It's clearly stated that the God of Israel detest humans sacrificing their sons and daughters to Gods or gods and not that he is not happy if the sacrifice is not made to him. That's exactly what that verse is saying and not what you want it to mean.

It is obvious that you're deliberately misinterpreting it in order to reconcile it with the primitive Christian doctrine of blood for the remission of sin. This is one of the major contradictions in the Bible which Bible scholars over the years have struggled unsuccessfully to explain away; A God that detest human sacrifice but still want such sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. See, you can't reconcile this no matter how you try.

Apart from the example of Abraham, please present any other instances in the Bible where the God of Israel accepted human sacrifice as burnt offering. Mind you, Abraham never really sacrificed Isaac .An alternative was provided at the last minute after Abraham demonstrated he was ready to follow without questioning anything God ask him to do. That's the actual reason for that test of faith and not that God of Israel likes human sacrifice. He detest it. The God of the old and New testament are obviously not the same.

BTW, why should anyone worship a God that wants human blood to be spilled before he can forgive anything? What does a God need blood for?


I think it should end now. You either as a Christian accept by faith church doctrine or you don't. It's not something you can defend with logic or trying to rationalise it . You will fail.There's a reason your religion wants you to accept things without questioning .
That's the only way they can keep you believing and not knowing the truth for yourself.

Arrowss:
That you knw about a thing before it happens doesn't necessarily mean you must stop it from happening or allow it to happen because you have the power to stop it or make it happen. You may now say, God saw evil about to happen yet he did not stop it, my question now is, do you actually know what evil is? What is good? What is bad? You may say, so God can see something good about to happen and wd stop it? Remember, because you kw what is to come doesn't necessarily mean you must stop it or allow it even when you have the power to. Well, I ask you same question, what is Good and what is Bad? If you can be able to answer the question, I have answered your question.

All these so nobody question the Genesis account. Sorry,Nairaland is not your Church or Sunday school where nobody is expected to question anything but jus accept whatever explanation given ,whether it makes sense or not.

You're not even sure of what you explained up there, the reason you're running away from telling us what is good or bad. You're engaged in deceptive argument in defense of the gospel. That's all. You're not the first and won't be the last.

Arrowss:
That you knw about a thing before it happens doesn't necessarily mean you must stop it from happening because you have the power to stop it. You may now say, God saw evil about to happen yet he did not stop it, my question now is, do you actually know what evil actually is? Think about it.

Then tell us what actually is evil since you're Gods spokesman.

tctrills:
Lol, read the verses you referred to again. God was talking about sacrificing humans to other Gods. It has nothing against his sacrificing his son. You are the one out of context
These are the verses you mentioned.
31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

They all talk about sacrificing to other Gods. If God requires his son to sacrifice himself for mankind, it is not against his principles. Please read your bible.

God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son. God would never ask you to do something wrong.

I think comprehension is your problem. Sorry to say this. You read the verse and what you could make of it is that God would prefer that human sacrifice is made to him and not to other gods?
The verse says, they do all kinds all of destable things which God hates. One of these destable things is sacrificing human beings, their sons and daughters to their gods and not that the God of Israel is angry because the people did not offered it to him.

So the God of Israel detest human sacrifice of any kind, his son and anyone else

I hope your fellow Christians would comment on this. You're on your own and just saying anything that comes to your mind.

As for Abraham, he did not sacrifice his son an alternative was provided for him at the last minute showing it was a test of Faith and not that God actually wanted him to sacrifice his son.
I still insist you don't know your Bible very well and because of this you have been putting your God in a very bad light .

And please stop using the word, principle, to cover for something that is very reprehensible; sacrificing a human being to forgive sin.
Modified. Talking of context, it was Isaiah 1. 11 I said you took out of context and not Deuteronomy. Did you quote that before? Why don't you address the one you quoted? You want to confuse me?

tctrills:
Actually, the bible says God does not delight in animal sacrifice not human.
Isiah 1.11

This is very funny. God takes pleasure in human sacrifice but not animal sacrifice.

The Bible has not said so. You're the one saying so by taking Isaih 1.11 out of the context in which it was made. Read from verse 1 till the end and see the reason the God of Israel took no pleasure in the animal sacrifice offered by the children of Israel. It was not only animal sacrifice. He took no pleasure in their offerings and prayers as well.

Deuteronomy ,12.31 and 18. 10 as well as 2 kings. 21.6. shows how the God of Israel detest human sacrifice.
You sure don't know your Bible very well.

tctrills:
Did the bible not say that God gave his son and we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ?

Then how do you solve the confusion of God not also delighting in human sacrifice. Are there two Gods in the Bible? Old testament God and new testament God? It would seem so from the look of things

tctrills:
It does not mean God and satan were working together. God wanted Jesus Christ to be crucified, would you say he was working with Judahs?

Sacrificed for what? Did the same Bible not say God doesn't delight in human sacrifice?

KnownUnknown:
@Triplechoice
Is tctrills a “fundamentalist” or a “moderate”?

I don't know enough of him to judge However religious fundamentalist are known to interpret religious text literally. Moderates are sometimes unwilling to publicly give a literal interpretation in order not to draw the ire of those who do.
So ,it is difficult to answer your question.
The sure way of identifying a fundamentalist is through the way they treat others around them who don't share exactly the same interpretation of scripture. They don't even tolerate fellow believers they consider not following scripture strictly not to talk of outsiders.

Muslims kill other Muslims because of this. Christians shun other Christian groups because of the same thing yet, they all use the same Bible or Koran.

tctrills:
So you see. You have developed your own opinion over God's words but you question other people. The Bible never said the story was an allegory.

And your opinion that God wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit is what?

If you insist God wanted them to eat it, then it means God and Satan are working together because without the later they wouldn't have thought of it.

And when you teach kids Sunday school ,you tell them God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, but however he never really meant they don't eat it.

tctrills:
That's not how to study the bible. It's not a question and answer booklet but from reading, you come to understand much. So the very first blessing that came to Adam and Eve from eating the fruit is that they became more like God.
And the Lord God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad,
The plan of God is that we become like him.
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your. Father which is in heaven is perfect.
God has all Knowledge and when we become like him, we would have all knowledge.

Interesting this. So you're the only one who can read and understand the Bible. When others read, they can only understand it if you interpret for them.

If God really wanted them to be like him ,then why chased them out of the garden so they don't eat what would really make them have immortality ? You skipped that

tctrills:
Good wanted them to work. remember Jesus said, my father works, even so, I work. Work is an internal principle. But God wanted them to make the choice.
As for pain, it's part of the package that comes with earth life. You may choose to see it as a curse but then even Jesus Christ learned and grew from his suffering. Hebrew 5.8.
Also, I never knew that your position is that there is no God. If I knew, there wouldn't have been a need for this discussion.

I am sure you never really read my response. You just glossed over it and then responded. I don't enjoy engaging people who do this.

Where did I mentioned my position about God. I said the story is an allegory. Meaning that the characters are symbolic. The story of Adam and Eve was plagiarized from Judaism where it is rightly treated for what it is; an allegory. It is only Islam and Christianity that has given it literal interpretation ,hence the confusion we have in the world today

tctrills:
I state 2 things here. 1. Knowledge and 2. Overcoming through Christ.
So I can show you 10s of verses where the importance of obtaining knowledge and I can quote many more that speak about overcoming sin through Jesus Christ.

This is not it. You said God wanted them to eat the forbidden fruit in the garden. Quote a verse were it is said God wanted this. If you're quoting any other thing about knowledge from the Bible, then it means God was using deception,a lie, to make Adam and Eve the fruit. He told them they would die the very day they eat the fruit, but this turned out not to be true as they continue to live

Modified. Why do we need Christ to overcome the original sin, if it was for our good

tctrills:
No, he wanted man to have the knowledge of good and evil and to overcome evil through his son.

Can you quote a Bible verse in support of the above?

tctrills:
What are the curses?
The man was given more responsibility. Work is a blessing, not a curse.

. It was God who never wanted them to work in the first place by placing them in a garden where he was spoon feeding them with different fruits everyday and would have continued for eternity if not for Eve that was bold and courageous enough to eat the forbidden fruit .So the blessings of work was theirs to fight for and not God's. God never wanted it.

Look at what the human race has accomplished because we were kicked out of our comfort zone and made to work. We have transformed the work and created civilizations.

Yes the human race as achieved a lot, but it was thanks to the snake and Eve. God never wanted it. He wanted our eyes closed in the garden for ever

Let me ask you if you are a billionaire, would you want your kids to work or would you want them to remain in a garden with everything they need and without the need to work and grow?

Let me also ask you ,how many billionaire fathers would keep their children at home at a time they should be in schoo?. God kept or wanted to keep Adam and Eve at home, in the garden, for eternity untill they got help from the snake. And the outcome was what led God to grudgingly forced them away to" school" and with some curses and swearing to go along with it.

For the woman the Lord said,
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This is putting it euphemistically. God actually placed curses to increase the pain of women during child birth. Just look at that . Then after 9 months of stressfully carrying a baby in the womb ,the woman has to experience one of the two most painful thing in the world; childbirth, (the other is burning by fire) And do you how many women have died from that painful experience since the beginning of the world? And why? Eve eat the fruit which was even a good thing.

It may seem like a curse but it is not.

This is double speak. It is a curse or punishment that's is not deserving at all

He gave the woman the responsibility over the children. He also made her be submissive to her husband. I don't see the curse in this.
Yes,

Submissive here is to hide the fact that God made Eve inferior or less than the Adam after disobeying him. Before the punishment, both of them were equals, nothing like the woman being submissive or less than the Adam.

God allowed them to face sorrow in the real world but it's only wonderful for their growth and experience.

. No. God never wanted it. It was the snake who actually wanted it for them and did everything to convince Eve to eat the fruit that led to their awakening. It is obvious you're trying to rationalise the behaviour of God in the garden by bringing in interpretations that are not part of church doctrine. It would only lead to confusion. This is the truth. The story is an allegory. There's no real God, Adam and Eve or Satan in it. Those characters are symbolic .

tctrills:
Have you ever heard of God's plan?God had a plan for man. If Adam had not eaten the fruit there would have been no need for Christ.

So God wanted Adam and Eve to commit the original sin so that in the future he would come down to die to take away the curse of the original sin and after that wake up three days later straight back to heaven?

tctrills:
Planting the tree of the fruit of knowledge of Good and evil in the garden was one of the very best things God has done for man.
God wants us to have the knowledge of Good and evil.
Let me ask you, as parents if you know a thing is poisonous, would you leave it close to your kids?
God knew that mortality was the only way man could gain perfection and become like him.
However, he wanted it to be our choice.

If God wanted it to be our choice, why were curses placed on Adam and Eve for choosing correctly?

KnownUnknown:
Definitely part of an origin myth and I understand your “moral truth” but I disagree.

Why do you disagree? Is seeking for knowledge at any cost not worth it?

It’s not common knowledge but a common assumption. Who decides where the moderates end and the fundamentalist begin. You say that as if there is a clear line between a moderate and a fundamentalist when it’s totally subjective.

It is not an assumption that there are moderate religious people. It is critics of religion, who are pushing for its complete eradication, that deny this fact. Moderate believers are more tolerant of non believers. This can't be said of the fundamentalist. Even amongst atheist there are moderate atheist and atheist fundamentalist. The later are very intolerant, and are everywhere on the net engaged in psychological terrorism of religious people .So it is not subjective but an explicit behavior that anyone can observe and make the distinction.

The church doctrine that may be the greatest scam ever perpetrated. However, there is an “original sin” in the story that is utterly useless to the church.

Well, I see it as an effective recruitment tactics to get new members, and not useless. It has been working and will continue to work

No matter how we want to look at it, religion will continue to be part of our collective reality.It can't be completely eradicated now or in the future.

Religion as we all know, function as a coping mechanism for some people. Not everyone is mentally tough to cope with the challenges of life. It may be easy for some persons to cope, but for others not an easy thing.

Judaism and its offshoots share the same Adam and Eve, just different interpretations.

Not exactly the same. For instance, the version of the story in the Koran is not exactly the same in the Bible. Also in judaic methology, the first wife of Adam was Lilith. She failed to obey Adam and was banished from the garden.
Whatever the case, it doesn't make sense for anyone to inherit "original sin" from a story that is fiction.

KnownUnknown:
What is the encapsulated “moral truth” of the allegory?

One should seek for knowledge or truth at any cost. They ate the forbidden fruit( knowledge) and their"eyes became open" .

It's an origin myth and also an allegory. Anyone who reads it without bias can find other themes running through it.

What is a moderate Christian? Are there levels of severity in Christianity?

Very surprised you're asking this sort of question. It's common knowledge that every religious group has it's moderate believers; The non fundamentalist.

If it’s an allegory, what is the “original sin” that Jesus supposedly died for to forgive and them?

The concept of the "original sin' is church doctrine meant to instill guilt in the minds of people for something that doesn't concern them in order to make them seek desperately for forgiveness from a saviour or anyone they believe can take the away the burden of guilt.

If the naked simpletons didn’t literally eat a fruit and Hebrew god didn’t get angry, why did the ghost impregnate the virgin in order to give birth to the sacrificial lamb?
Is Jesus also an allegory? What do s he symbolize?

The Adam and Eve story is not unique to Christianity. There are other versions of the allegory in other religious groups; Judaism and Islam, for instance.

It's only in Christianity you will find the concept of "original sin" linked to it.

If there's no original sin (there's non), then nobody needs to be saved from anything by anyone. We are the only ones to bear the consequences of whatever choice we make in life.

phatriqk:
I like to think the garden of Eden was situated somewhere in Africa, and possible the Sahara desert, it just mere assumptions though out of curiosity.

The story is an allegory that encapsulate certain moral truth. It shouldn't be taken as a literal account of something that happened in the past.

It's only religious fundamentalist, who due to indoctrination, take it as something that actually happened.

Most moderate Christians know the story for what it is; an allegory. But they won't admit it openly.

midnight378:
I understand it. I reject it .

You rejected a valid study already published in a peer review journal which has been cited severally by journalist and other scientists from different parts of the world investigating the same thing ? Well, you are free to reject it if you think you know better than those that did the study . But you have not provided any valid reason why it should be rejected, you just expressed your personal feelings. That's all.

I don't care what you have cherry-picked to be beneficial... There is a reason 10 % of Americans are EX-CATHOLICS .
they hate the bullshit they were taught and enslaved them as children. Utilitarianism is a slippery slope.

If you had read my initial response to the op, you would not be dragging me into all of the above, Ex Catholics, Utilitarianism etc
Theist, without evidence a god exist, are also finding fulfilment in their lifes and not only atheist. That's what I try to highlight at the beginning and not what you think.

Moreover,I have already mentioned that it can be good and bad , so why the false accusation of Cherry picking? I have experienced religious trauma from my involvement in a religious group in the past. So I know what it is, but in spite of the unpleasant experience, there was still some benefits I enjoyed at that time. Today, my experience has helped me to understand better why some people would remain in any religious group no matter what you say about God or gods not existing. They won't listen to you until it starts going bad.

I am not pro religion as you think.

Another thing I would like to highlight here, which is the most important , is that religious beliefs are not founded only on what is contained in any religious text alone, but also on the personal experiences of the faithful. Those who deriving any form of benefit or are hoping to derive any form of benefit, would defend it,and don't care if the Bible or Koran contain any lies, fairy tales or inconsistences,. They would find a way to make it make sense.

If you focus only on criticizing their God or gods, while ignoring their personal experiences ,you would be talking to yourself. It would be like trying to convince a young lady from a poor home married to a very wealthy man to abandon the marriage because the man is too old for her. She won't listen to you.

BTW, who tells you that religious practices can't provide real benefits. These days some atheist are engaged in meditation, a religious practice from yoga, to starve of depression and take charge of their minds.

So what are you really talking about? If you think meditation doesn't offer any real benefits, then my friend, you're ignorant. The practice finds scientific support .It has been shown to offer real benefits to the human brain.

OK, I think I know your problem. Your atheism is founded only on the two popular false religious construct, the abrahamic religion.

And because of this, the only thing you can think of when the word, religion,is mentioned is prayers, Gods,angels, devils, Ex catholics, and religious crusades.

There are religious systems that are almost atheistic with practices that offer real benefits.
So, for someone who's a Buddhist, all your ranting about the evil of religion and the damaged it has caused is your own cup if tea.

There has been as much evil perpetrated by religion by those who claim THEIR religious truth is THE religious truth as anything else.
Society as "theocracy" is as dangerous an anything imaginable . we've seen the results of that crap.
We know what religion is and the effects of that bullshit are all around us ..
You're fooling no one. https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/ro...i8QAvD_BwE.

Your religious education is very limited. The two abrahamic religion is not the only ones that exist. So, I am not fooling no one, but talking from a well informed position unlike you.

taking illegal drugs produces good effects also

It is very desperate of you to equate religious practices; meditation or prayers, with taking illegal drugs. What do you smoke? weed or ? Try to edit your thoughts next time.
...

It's not the belief system . It's not religion.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna40549161
It's being a part of a close-knit community, that meets regularly.

"It's not their spirituality, belief in heaven, or even the ritual act of praying or going to a house of worship that leads the pious to happiness. Rather, the study found, it's the close friends people gain through their religions that makes a difference.

How is this different from some of the things I already discussed? Whatever anyone is benefiting or not benefitting boils down to the individual involved; their level of acceptance of the religious beliefs , what they make of it and level of involvement, and not that some magic suddenly happens once you become a member . It is not the object of belief that makes it work, but the individual belief that it would work. However, certain meditative practices has nothing to do with belief, if not, it won't be effective for outsiders who engage in in it.

The findings suggest that forging close bonds with people over mutually shared and meaningful interests might boost quality of life for anyone, religious or not. But there's something about being part of a congregation in particular that seems to build a sense of community and lead to fulfillment for many people."

Do you even take the time to read any of my replies? I have said atheist can also benefit the same if they can find themselves in similar environment.

Just read very well the last part of what you took from the article to see that being part of a congregation offers much more for some people than any other group out there.

do any of your studies have a proper control group ?

You really don't know your science very well, if not you shouldn't be asking this kind of question. It was rigorously done, and moreover the findings has been published in a peer review journal if you really understand the significance of that.

The article you referenced contains a study report that is not rigorously done. It made use of data that is drawn from a particular region, USA. So ,you can't use it to universalize about the benefits of religious practice or systems everywhere.

midnight378:
.... says the troll who fails to explain how "good effects" from false belief systems are actually beneficial.

Sure you don't know the meaning of troll. Between the two of us who has been trolling?
You can't know that.

I repeat again, if you can't understand a report written in plain English, what exactly can you make sense of? Nothing..

I have explained before now,how religious practices can be beneficial . I don't believe in any God or gods, but well informed to know, unlike you ,that religious practices can offer salutary benefits to the human mind, and this has been demonstrated.

You are obviously one of those ignorant atheist who don't know that religious beliefs are not founded on religious text alone, hence you wonder why grown adults should believe in fairy tales.

You're starkly ignorant.

midnight378:
if I need any advice from the likes of you..., I'll be sure and ask.
what you intend is perfectly obvious.
Nice try at evasion though. This is a public forum . I'll comment on whatever I decide to comment on, including your rubbish.

Next time don't be lazy to read what has gone before.

If you had done that you wouldn't have responded the way you did.

You certainly can respond to anything here and even respond any how you like. Nobody is stopping you.
But when you quote me to take my comments out of the context in which they were made, then don't take offence or accuse me of evasion when corrected.

It's what I have done and would do again, if you repeat the same behavior.

Even the article I referenced, you also demonstrated that you didn't understand it.

The extract you took from it and posted is not very well .understood by you. Reasons were giving why those happen, but you were blind to them.

It is the same mindset which produces the good effects for anyone who practice any belief system is what also produces the bad. It is explained there.

If you can't make sense of something written in plain English, what exactly can you make sense of?

Here below.

midnight378:
Great. So you're proposing that people who actually don't believe *say* they do, to obtain a result ? LOL
there are studies that show people do worse when they think people are praying for them.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...ayed%20for.




Un huh.... you're saying the mind is powerful , so we should lie to ourselves to obtain an outcome. I'm sorry but that is utterly stupid and dishonest .



Everyone has their own social groups . Your unsupported assumptions are wrong , and again....., you're proposing it's better to be dishonest, as you claim it produces a better outcome. GREAT.... So here we have somebody who proposes we tell ourselves things we don't believe because it produces a better outcome .
No matter what the studies show , this is ridiculous in the extreme,... and basically proves that you promote dishonesty for the sake of outcome,... based on nothing ,.... and based on concepts you attempt to justify secondary to the outcomes, not the reality. I doubt I've ever read such utter rubbish.



Prove it. Unsupported assertion.
Even if true, think about it . You want to change their personality type ?
You want to FORCE them to join religious groups, even though they might hate it ?
THAT's a great idea..... Not!
Do you have data to support this ? What about religious people who prefer to be alone ?
You going to force them to change also ?

"Negative Aspects of Religious Involvement" Along with the presumed benefits of religious involvement for health, religion may also be associated with negative outcomes, such as poorer mental and physical health status, negative coping behaviors, and inappropriate use of health services."
https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10...%2C%20106).

You just jumped midway into my conversation with another person to interpret everything I have presented based on what you think and not what I have intended them for.

I am not asking any one to believe in a God ,deceive themselves, or practice any religion simply because of what they may or not benefit from it.

The person I am conversing with, I believe ,should understand me better than you.

Please take a back sit for now and don't take my assertions out of the context in which they were made.

Near1:
Why do you insist that meaning should be handed down to you from on high? You don't seem to understand that people can define the meaning of their own lives for themselves, without being told what to value by someone else.

Sure, to a goldfish, the only part of the world that matters is his goldfish bowl. But I can assure you that there's a world of thought and meaning far and wide outside the goldfish bowl you live in.

I don't insist that meaning should be handed to me from on high. Why did you interpret my comment to mean that?

Anyone can find meaning for their lives. The important thing is that it's what they're comfortable with and works for them.

Tamaratonye1:
(my bold)

Please provide evidence.

.

Yes ,I will provide links to some studies done.

Before you read them ,I would like explain certain things so my pervious assertions are not misinterpreted


Anybody, no matter their belief or non belief can enjoy better health outcomes.. The key is trust and believe in whatever you do or is being done to you to improve your health.

There's is power in belief, and it's why placebos can be effective.

The belief alone that a higher power is intervening in one's health condition through prayer or meditation can trigger certain physiological responses within the human body that can result in healing or make one heal faster while undergoing treatment in the hands of a medical health practitioner.

This works not because the object of belief is real, but the belief that it is. The human mind doesn't know the difference between what is real and not real. If it is made to accept that something is real, it would use that to create effect. That's how powerful the mind is.

Another thing, is that religious people can find strong social support in the various groups they belong to through regular attendance and active participation in group activity

Most atheist are not joiners. They like being alone. So even when the opportunity is provided ( humanist groups ) for them to bound with others they are not too keen to take advantage of it. They hardly get involved.




https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicolefisher/2019/03/29/science-says-religion-is-good-for-your-health/?sh=dbf92653a12c

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671693/
https://www.verywellmind.com/how-spirituality-can-benefit-mental-and-physical-health-3144807

The last link contains some citations to other studies done

This one below please. Just added it now.
https://www.verywellmind.com/how-spirituality-can-benefit-mental-and-physical-health-3144807

Endtimer:
[b] You ask an impossible question and plead that we ignore its impossibility for the sake of argument. I’m curious as to how science could disprove God.[/b]Contrary to common atheist folklore, science has spent the last century bringing us closer to belief in the supernatural. It’s a shame that there aren’t enough Christians aware of this to point it out often enough until it sticks. It’s a shame there aren’t enough Christians who know that science is on their side.

As to your point concerning the difference between life with and without God:

- Atheism is only tenable in a predominantly religious society. If we all began to live without belief in God as a result of some impossible scientific discovery, it would ultimately destroy society or lead back to religion. The reason for this is because atheists take for granted the religious pillars all civilized societies are built on; the concept of morality and legislation for instance go hand in hand. Rather than reorder society after the eradication of religion, atheists would need to continue pretending as though religion still had moral force in society; until someone asks: “why can’t I just do whatever I want”. In the end we’ll arrive at a religious society because atheistic society is unsustainable and humans are incurably religious.

- On a personal, rather than sociological, level religion provides purpose for living. Atheism doesn’t. On atheism, suicide is not morally abhorrent. Western nations are beginning to witness the effects of unbelief as their citizens increasingly end their own lives. Let me ask you a question: would it make any difference if you were going to kill yourself today or tomorrow? On atheism, it certainly wouldn’t. On atheism, the fact that we are going to die one day is enough motivation for us to end our lives at once. Anything is enough motivation for us to end our lives.

- Contrary to what many atheists believe, increasing secularism negatively correlates with happiness in society. While happiness isn’t the point of life, it is worth noting that the decline of religion has been accompanied by increased depression in the west.

Note that none of the above is meant to validate the authenticity of religion. Instead it is to conceptualize the faithless society posited in the op.

At the emboldened, I thought I was the only one to noticed the deception.

To make it worse, the op later displayed egocentric thinking in saying that millions of atheist round the world are enjoying fulfilling lives, while refusing to acknowledge the fact that millions, if not, billions of religious people around the world, are also enjoying the same .

She never told us what makes for a self fulfilling live.

One's belief or non belief in a deity is never an hindrance to living a live that is self fulfilling. In fact it has been demonstrated that those who practice some form of spirituality or the other enjoy a life that's self fulfilling than those who don't. Less stress and better health outcomes that prolongs life, having a greater sense of purpose and so on.

Even though not subscribed to any religious belief; I practiced some form of spirituality, ( don't believe in any religious God or gods) the Op, to me, is not well thought out.

Gopkk:
. Yeah he has Inspected it ,That was 3 weeks ago..still Expecting a buyer ..

Thanks sooo much ...

Check your WhatsApp. There's a message for you

Oh ,your location is very far from mine. However, I would contact the agent I know. If it's something he can handled, not minding the distance, you will contacted.

In the main time , I advise you focus on agents close to you. Glad you already have someone coming to inspect it. .

Remove fear from your mind and believe you get what you're looking for.

I wish you goodluck in getting a buyer.

Gopkk:
Prayer Over and Over .
Fasted over and Over .

By Grace and Strength Available ,Tried as much as I could to keep steadfast .

Situation is getting Worst .

I Offered my House for sale on the thread below .

https://www.nairaland.com/7329065/abeg-abeg-buy-property-save

No One is buying ...I have Two Houses .Intend Using Money gotten from the sale to Start up .

My Children are Hungry , Can't Withstand the Pains of seeing them Hungry ..No Job ,A Farmer ,No business. Suicidal thoughts is Really threatening my Reasoning .



Did a Bus Conductor for Some days now for the first time so I could raise money to buy food for my Children ,Fell off the LT Bus .From Toll Gate Sango to Iyana Ipaja Wasn't an Expert Running after Bus.One of them was Having Sepsis / Malaria Typhoid ,Able to get Some Drugs for her after been Attended to at the General Hospital,OTA ,Obasanjo ,But not all drugs

Not a Lazy Person .

Sin is not what you should consider here, but whether the action you're contemplating is the right one.

Your children still depends on you no matter what . Do you think commiting suicide would improve their situation and make them to have regular food?

Reach out to people around you and share your problem. You just might find help where you least expect it.

There's solution to your problem.

BTW ,where's your location?. I know people who can of help to sell your house on your behalf, but with commission.
Or if you don't want to reach out to me, then put the sale of your house in the hands of a trusted agent.

You seem to be doing this all by your self, hence the difficulty in getting a buyer.

Think of your children and don't do it. Help will come if you don't lose hope. Life is up and down. You will go up again.