₦airaland Forum

KnownUnknown:
Do you still have these spontaneous experiences?

Are these spontaneous experiences limited to your body’s location?

Can your “OBE body” view things that are not in your body’s vicinity?

Can your “OBE Body” travel? If yes, how far?

The questions you're asking have their answers in what I already wrote. Please take time to read them again.

I. expect you to know the difference between spontaneous and at will.

And supposing, anyone can do what you're asking you expect them to let you know about it, and then you ask them to fly to your house to confirm what you're doing right now?

Your thoughts are still influenced by all the mumbo jumbo nonsense you have heard.

OBEs is expansion of consciousness, and what is experienced after that depends on the level of awareness of the individual.

It is not special powers but natural phenomena which everyone experiences in varying degrees.

Having a strong sense of knowingness about something going on somewhere far from you that you later confirm to be true, means your consciousness has expanded to perceive things outside of your body.

People think if they don't experience the usual dramatic NDEs or OBEs of leaving the body, then they have not experienced it. Not true.

Scientists are confirming that everyone do have the experience, but can't consciousness recall their experiences due to psychological or biological reasons.

My approach to the phenomena is mostly from a scientific point of view,so don't place me in the category of those who want to show they can demonstrate they have super powers.

Any further questions similar to the ones you asked above will be ignored.

Below is an uncommon OBEs experience. I can confirm this because I was having almost the same kind of OBEs spontaneously while growing even till adulthood. Singing in the choir, and the next thing ,I am watching my body singing. Walking home, and the next I am observing my body from up below. Those experiences were the things that pushed me to investigate the phenomena everywhere; esoteric groups, sciences reading everything I could lay my hands..

I have leant a lot ,and the most important I learnt is that no group has the complete answer, science or others, but by combining all that I learnt from everywhere I have to a certain extent being able to put the different piece of the puzzle together to create a near perfect picture behind the reasons I had those experiences in the past.

Below is brief description of current approach used in investigating NDEs. Nothing like creating fake evidence, simulation, to deceive the public

KnownUnknown:
https://www.livescience.com/19106-death-experiences-lucid-dreams.html

Nelson said conclusions from the research should be "cautiously drawn" until the findings pass the peer-review process, but they are nonetheless well-aligned with prior research on NDEs. "Lucid dreaming can be conditioned and bears an uncanny similarity to near-death," Nelson told Life's Little Mysteries. "Indeed, Raduga's study demonstrates the similarity of near-death and lucid dreaming. Evidence from many sources converges to support that lucid dreaming and near-death use similar brain mechanisms but in different circumstances."

I have the time to now respond to the report in the link you shared, but before doing so ,I would like to react to the above conclusion you lifted from it.

At first glance, it appears to have something in
it to suggest that the controversy around NDEs or OBEs has been settled, but after going through the full report, I didn't find anything that should warrant the conclusion made, but claims arrived at through mere speculation.



Lucid dreams and NDEs are subjective experiences, but different kind of subjective experiences. Artificial sweetener and honey can't be compared to be the same thing. The reaction we get from either substances in our taste buds and how our brains react to the different sweet experiences can't be exactly the same..

Lucid dreams can be conditioned, but NDEs happen spontaneously and in circumtances that are unique, so we can't say they use the same brain mechanism and not a different one. The researchers and the study participants have never had NDEs before, so how were they able to make the comparison to be sure it is the same. experience. Did they measure the light in the heads of the subjects used in the experiment to be sure it is of the same intensity? How did they judge that how the subject felt is exactly the same as those who have experienced it directly. Most people who experience NDEs usually say the experience is had to describe, but the conditioned subjects in the experiment find it very easy to describe their experience suggesting it can't be the same as the one that occur naturally.

The claim that lucid dreams and NDEs uses the same brain mechanism s misleading information. It is for the uninformed to swallow. There's no scientific evidence anywhere other than the assumption that they both uses the same brain mechanism. Those who experience NDEs are mostly those whose brains are nonfunctional. So how can a brain in such a condition still function to produce the vivid imageries associated with NDEs?

These question is what scientist who are
currently engaged in a massive study into the phenomena are trying to figure out, yet the study which was done around 2012 that is not published in any peer review journal, despite high hopes ,it would,, is stating something not scientifically correct or not proven yet.

Now ,let's get into the study proper to see if it can pass the test

As at the time the study was conducted, 2012, scientist investigating NDEs didn't have much data to work with. They rely only on the unverified stories of people who claim to have had the experience to carried out their investigation.. Also ,not much was known, unlike now, about dreams , especially lucid dreams.

So hampered by the above limitations the study group, proceeded to conduct an experiment to know the cause of the phenomena. The procees was flawed from the start by the assumption that NDEs is created by the brain and must be hallucination.

So with this wrong assumption influencing the whole process, they gathered 20 subjects, conditioned them to experience in their dreams the popular stories about NDEs: floating towards a brightlight, seeing dead relatives and experiencing a feeling of great love and so on, not being aware that not everyone has the same NDEs experiences .

After the experiment ,with the observation made in the brains of their conditioned subjects, they then used the results to speculate that the same brain mechanism must be responsible in the brains of those who claim to have had direct NDEs.

This honestly is horribly wrong. Truths in the sciences are arrived at through a direct observation or demonstration of natural phenomena. You don't speculate.

NDEs, in the clinically dead, as I already mentioned occurs mostly when the brains is in a nonfunctional state or reduced activity, so how were they able to know ,without direct observation, the exact brain mechanism involved in those having the experience spontaneously?. They just use the results from their experiment to speculate that's all.

Another. error in the study is the use of healthy people who have never had the experience in a false setting that is different from the usual natural settings; hospital wards, emergency wards, and those under the care of first responders., from where people have reported experiencing it. NDEs is not a regular occurrence outside its natural settings In fact it hardly happens.. OBEs can happen anywhere, but not NDEs.

I guess the researchers just like most people don't know the difference between the two terms, OBEs are NDEs and what they signify. They're used interchangeably by most people to mean the same thing, but they don't mean the same. OBEs is the general term which covers all kinds of experience when consciousness is said to operate outside the body, while NDEs is a type of OBEs that mostly happen to people having a traumatic experience; the clinically dead or those facing death such as drowning etc.

So the use of healthy subjects who never had the experience in investigating NDEs can be likened to using non athletes in a non sporting environment to determine the cardiorespiratory level of long distance runners. Very wrong move.

Modern research into the phenomena no longer make use of this method of simulating NDEs in people outside its natural settings in order to make sense of it .Scientist, unlike in the past , now realize that it is not enough to grasp all of the complexities involved in the phenomena.

So , what they do now is to go to where it is happening live; emergency wards, armed with highly sophisticated modern brain scanners and other devices to capture what goes on in the brains of people having the experience. They also use the opportunity to interview anyone willing to share their experience, to get a first hand report. This has been very helpful and they now know much more than before.

NDEs based on current findings is now called EVA , External visual awareness. They said the change of name is because the term NDEs or OBEs is not scientific enough to describe all they have found out about the phenomana. OBEs or NDEs limit the experience to just one kind of experience It also create the impression in people's mind of another body ,not seen, operating outside the body. Scientist says they have not seen any evidence of a body floating outside, but only evidence that consciousness can function outside the body. This to me is correct. There's no real tangible body floating outside.

What people perceive as a body floating out is an illusion created by how the mind perceive the expansion of consciousness that is occurring during that period. . In fact the so called hallucination experienced during this period is not we think it is . It is triggered by inner an experiences going on; consciousness expanding outside the body. It is just like wet dreams which corresponds to physiological process going on in the body that leads to real ejaculation. The dream is illusion, but what happens within our body . is real.



Again, another major error, is the study group focusing only on NDEs that appears hallucinatory while avoiding the ones that come with veridical vision; where the person experiencing NDEs is able to perceive directly from outside their bodies, what doctors and nurses are doing to revive it, something that should not happen given what is known in the sciences about how the human brain work; consciousness is not suppose to operate outside the body it is believed.

This particular kind of NDEs with veridical vision, is the major reason, scientists a now fully interested in investigating the phenomena. The study group in the report never succeeded in replicating this kind of NDEs . They avoided it ,I believe, because they realize it would put paid to what they want to establish that NDEs are supernatural claims and hallucination, which is not untrue, but not completely true.

The misconception of thinking that NDEs are supernatural claims is because of what religious people say about it. They don't really understand it and are usually excited to use it to validate their religious beliefs of heaven and hell as being real .

The popular kind of NDEs of seeing a bright night in a tunnel or the dead, is not wholly hallucinatory as people think. What has happened is that once consciousness expands beyond the body, it isno longer under the grip of the brain, it has the freedom to experience as real any memories contained within it, that is ,if it thinks of anything, it sees it immediately just like we experience in dreams. It doesn't mean it is dreaming during this period as it is still possible to see things that are "there". Those who don't have such expectations of seeing heaven or hell won't experience it, but usually have a direct perception of things from outside their body. However, not everyone remembers their experiences due to physiological or biological reason according to what scientist are finding out.

Finally,the report also contain a misleading information that OBEs or NDEs is caused by brain damage or psychosis. But this is not true
Healthy people have experienced the phenomena.The errors I have highlighted from the report is also found in most other study done before now to investigate the phenomena.. They're filled with conjectures and written in mostly tentative language, "it is likely that" it may be possible" etc. Meaning they're not sure of anything. But it is swallowed becuse a top scientist has written it ,so he should know better.

So ,you can see that you brought a very weak study that is shoddily done as prove that the phenomena is explained.It is actually garbage in and garbage out to confirm their assumption. Very disappointing I must say.

Here below is a snippet of how things are been done correctly. It involves scientist from different parts of the world working together to unravel NDEs. Thousands of hospitals, doctors and nurses are also involved in the investigation. It started in2014. The first phase ended with little success. The second phrase has also ended with the report soon to released.

Teasers from the report already released suggest surprises .

budaatum:
Yuk, to common sense. What we are discussing here requires sense that is far from common, but can you see how I am not just accepting everything you are trying to put in my head?

I must be a top scientist!

It's your choice whatever you choose to accept. so don't accuse me of trying to put anything into your head. I don't expect everyone to accept whatever I present. Those who see something in anything I present may want to investigate it further ,but if you don't why wasting your time and energy resisting my comments?

The worst part is that you don't even take your time to read anything as most of your replies have shown. It is not only me you have done this to which I have noticed. A beg,oga Buda forget this matter until you're interested in a sincere conversation.



Before I forget, congratulations if you see yourself as a top scientist,but I think its all in your head because you have not demonstrated anything tangible for anyone to consider you as one.

Where are the scientific articles written and research you have conducted about anything?

When you're really interested in what I know and how I have come to know it I will know and be more willing to engage you. For now, I tell you, I don tire for your mata.

Happy Sunday.

budaatum:
This is not a reason for then assuming that everything scientists imagine happening in the future will become a reality, hence your "some".

And the other extreme is that a humanbeing who lives by the free reign of their imaginative faculty better be a creative artist or they might end up eating imaginary food. Neither extreme is good for successful living, I would think.

That's where common sense is needed. Top scientists are not devoid of common sense. They know how to edit whatever thoughts come into their heads and not just accept everything.

budaatum:
Neither of us know everything triple, and how consciousness operates, or even what it means to be conscious, is one thing no one can possibly know everything about. But some things are fundamentally clear. Dead things are not conscious.

As for my own consciousness, it develops and grows daily, as I find things around and inside me that I have hitherto been unconsciousness of. But if I am aware of something, I, personally am conscious of that thing, though as you say, to what extent, is debatable.

P.s. Nairaland is a wonderful tool for growing ones consciousness, especially of oneself. One can go back and read one's past posts and see how conscious one was and is now.

The question I asked was simple, How conscious are you of your own consciousness

Everyone is not operating at the same level of awareness and one's level of awareness is determined both by the knowledge one has acquired and the experience had.

So what do we all know and what have we all experienced together each time you begin a statement with the word, we .......?

Is it not that you're speaking from what you know and have experienced, and from those of others whose knowledge and experienced you subscribed to, and using it to interpret what others know that you don't know?

If you think you know more than me, I dont claim to know it all, please share what you know .I am open to learn from anyone.

So far on this thread you're amongst those who have not shared their own thoughts concerning the OP; what is consciousness and where has it emerged from?. Let's hear your own thoughts too. State the facts about the human consciousness as you know and understand it.



I am not forcing anything one anyone, but sharing knowledge that I have. If you can't agree. with it for any reason, then you are free to stick with what you know as long as it's working for you and makes you understand yourself better.

budaatum:
Actually, you made a claim without backing it up with anything. You never even claimed your consciousness operated outside your own body before making said claim.

No triple. My consciousness, as in my ability to be conscious, has not ever operated outside my body, not even when I was experiencing near death.

My consciousness is connected to the functions of my body so it can not operate outside my body just as the engine of a car can not get you anywhere if it is detached from the body of wheels and petrol tank and steering wheel and driver with a brain to direct it.

The question you should asl yourrself is ,what do you know about how your consciousness operates?

Do you know everything?
You can be aware of something, but not fully conscious of it.
So tell me how are you sure you're fully conscious of your consciousness?

budaatum:
Pigs will fly someday because it's a possibility.

Not everything scientist imagined in the past would happen in the future has happened.. But some have become a reality.

A humanbeing that lacks the capacity to give free rien to his imaginative faculty would struggle to succeed anywhere.

budaatum:
The driver, who is a human being with a brain, can not be put together with the car such that the human brain becomes the car's brain.

It appears it is difficult for you to consider things from the position of another

I have argued before now that consciousness has not emerged from matter and I still stick with that
Your response up there doesn't reflect correctly anything I have said


The analogy of the car,though not perfect, is simple to understand .The car and its engine is not what has emerged the driver inside it

So what are you talking about?

And you also think that any normal person would argue that a human brain can become the brain of a car.

A human being and a car are not the same entity. A human being can still function without car, but a car requires a human being to make it move even if driverless

budaatum:
No I do not want to see it first, triple, I just do not accept that everything conceived in a mind is currently possible. And the article you posted shows how unscientific some scientist can be.

Even I can read your mind if I have a good idea of what your brain activity looks like when you are thinking something, and I do not need a scan to spot it. I just give you a questionnaire asking what you are thinking and then present it to you as your mind read. Its what scammers do.

I used to the word, possibility, You don't know what that means?

Who is to say what is possible or not possible on the future? You?

budaatum:
This is absolute rubbish, triple, or you would post links to their stories that were verified.

I have on this same thread shared a link of a scientist involved in such research, and he is not the only one. The evidence they have gathered has been impressive, and it is becoming overwhelming for other scientist not to noticed. It's just a matter of time before they start looking into it.

Some of the things proven in the sciences exist first as rumors .You should always consider this before you dismiss anything as rubbish

In this age of the Internet you can get access to information that may be of help in your quest for the truth. I can't spoonfed your.

Besides you can do your own research. I already mentioned that'.You have boasted on this thread that you can employ the scientific method, so use that knowledge to know what is going on around you amongst the people you live it

budaatum:
How would you know? Have you had a direct experience of your consciousness operating outside your body?

You should answer the question first before throwing it back at me.

You made a claim about something without providing any reason to back it up. So I needed to ask you if you had had any experience of your consciousness operating outside your body to be sure of what you're saying.

nstead of giving and simple yes or no, you just want to complicate things by throwing it back at me. I need an answer from you first before I can answer yours.

budaatum:
Why "Not a good thing really" if "some persons are gifted with the ability"?.

Not everyone will abuse it
It is for their protection and those around them. Those who have the gift and abuse it ,with time will loose it.

I specifically went searching for the following in the article you posted:


Basically, they must know what's on my mind in order to be able to read my mind.

Scammers must also be provided with one's personal information before they can 'read' one's mind, even with a scanner.

If you had taken the time to read and understand why I referenced the article you would have not gone searching for that alone.

The main reason for that link is let us know the possibility ,in the future ,of directly knowing through more sophisticated brain scanner what is in ones mind . Science is progressive. Scientist continue to build on what has already been invented.

The technology we all enjoy today is something our primitive forbears would never had imagined possible.
Some years back video calls was only seen in science fiction movies, but today they are reality in our lives.

Everything scientists have invented was first conceived has a idea through imagination before it was brought to fruition.
You obviously don't think this way from some of your comments. You want to see it first before you accept it is possible. That kind of thinking won't lead to any kind of progress in the sciences or elsewhere

budaatum:
It is simple to understand but it is definitely not true that "Outside the physical body it can operate unhindered".

How would you know? Have you had a direct experience of your consciousness operating outside your body ?

Take your car engine. It does not in any way "act as the brain" and it can not walk freely. You car moves under the specific direction of the brain of the driver otherwise it remains in park, non-operated and hindered by its lack of a brain.

I think the point made using the car analogy is lost on you. I am not just referring to the car alone but together with the driver.

Every environment has its limitations
While driving a car one is limited by the unique environment of the car. You can't be driving your car and at the same time walking inside of it to get to your destination. That's impossible. Outside the car ,one is free to walk to their destination .This my point .

budaatum:
You were doing so well until the above. There is no way to check if memories contained in mind is retained at death.

I think the correct thing you should have said is that there's no way that you know of to check
You can't speak for everyone as you don't know what others know that you don't know.

Sigh! Or should I say, pity such people do not write history books so their facts could be checked.

Some who were able to recall a previous life have had their stories verified . A little search on the net should bring you in contact with those or you conduct your own research by finding out if anyone around you can recall their previous life. You may get a confirmation if you succeed with it

LordReed:
If you read the report you'd have seen that the authors think NDEs are indicative of something transcendent so no that is not why I linked it. I linked it so that you can example to me how in your view a blind person can have OBEs or NDEs if they can't see. Does their consciousness or mind or whatever it is that leaves the body have eyes or how does it perceive the environment? A blind person cannot see the environment but if the OBE or NDE were actually real then they should be able to see the environment right? I am asking because that is not what is in evidence from this report.

If you go back to read what I replied you first, you will come across how it is possible for the blind to see outside the body, with what is seen transmitted to the physical brain through the pineal gland situated in the cent re of one's head

One sees the way we 'see' while dreaming. We don't see or hear with our physical eyes or hear while dreaming.
.

Honestly, if you have not experience this sort of thing directly, no amout of explanation would do.You will only try make sense of it from a physical perspective and not fully understanding much

If you study your dreams you could make some sense of how one sees outside the body

It needs to be experience than to talk about it. You're not able to know exactly how one sees without having the experience directly. One is not perceiving through the brain outside of the body


Besides, those who have had this experience don't check to see any eyes

Maybe when you have your own experience, you can check if you have one
Not everyone has the same experience of themselves outside their bodies

Some see an image of themselves similar to their their own physical body which is not 'real', others experience themselves as a globe of brilliant white light or surrounded by it

I mentioned before that it is not common for those born blind to see. I said so based what I confirmed to be true report and besides not everyone is willing to share their experience. So it may be common and I cannot deny this

I ignore the ones that are a product of hallucination, but it is still NDE with the content not corresponding to objective reality

LordReed:
Why would a diseased mind produce a diseased body, what's the link if the mind is just some intangible thing nor is it located in body?

Not located in the sense I have used it simply means it's actual location can be regarded as mental at this point and not in a physical space that can be viewed with the naked human eyes or any know instrumentation. But it is there.

It is possible to 'see' thought forms which forms mind. Some persons are gifted with the ability to view, not with the naked eyes, what you're thinking and able to predict your next move.

When we sleep , we see thoughts as pictures, but it is not possible to see this same pictures by an external.observer using a brain scanner.

We know that what we sometimes dream about can trigger certain responses in our brains which forces our bodies to respond
by producing a corresponding effect which matches what we are dreaming about even we dont consider those experiences as real.Wet dreams for instance

Yes ,science says the brain create these imageries, but as it ever been seen by an external observal other than the person dreaming? Not at all.

However, the closest that we can see using highly sophisticated modern brain scanners, are thought energy, not pictures, issuing forth from the visible human brain of someone engaged in thinking, with what is seen still subjected to interpretation to determine what exactly the person is seeing in their heads.

You can go online to research this. I am surprised that you have not brought this up or maybe you don't know about it
It should be your strongest point in arguing that matter is responsible for consciousness. But nothing is conclusive yet. Scientist are still not sure



So with this breakthrough in the sciences, there's hope that in the future, scientist would improve on what they have invented and develop far more superior scanners that can see thoughforms as pictures. By then a lot of things that goes on within the human being would be clearly revealed just like we have scanners these days to view babies in the womb, something that wasn't possible in the past.

But there's a raging controversy in certain quarters that neuroscientists should not proceed further for ethical reasons as it would mean that in the future unscrupulous individuals in possession of such scanners can view in pictures what exactly you're dreaming or thinking about and predict your next move

Not a good thing really.

If this becomes a reality someday what do you think it would signify?

For me I would mean that what we have always know about thoughtforms interacting with brains to sometimes create effects is actually true, but because it can't be observed at the moment by everyone. it is not accepted to be true.

Scientists rely on what can be observed or demonstrated to draw inferences from.What they can currently see is the brain and nothing else.

But as I have mentioned before there are alternative methods by which on can peer further into reality to see things correctly as they're ,and know exactly what is going on within ourselves and those of others around us


Those who have used those alternative methods know better than what everyone else know currently, but are not in a position tprovide evidence that will acceptable to anyone in the main body of science.

In the end all will be revealed and we then know the actual truth about the human being.

Modified. Read about modern brain scanners that can read ones intention through the link below and let me know what you tbink


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/feb/09/neuroscience.ethicsofscience

LordReed:
From page 146 of the report:

The story of Sarah implied that she really could see during her NDE, in the way that a sighted person might. We have shown this is an unwarranted inference. What seemed like an analog to physical sight really was not when examined closely.

I would investigate first before accepting if anyone born blind reports having sight while having an NDE or OBE.

I am not saying it's not possible for those born blind not to see something, but it's very rare. It would take an highly evolved soul who is born blind to start to see something immediately they have their consciousness operating outside their bodies.

The question to ask concerning those reports is this, How is it possible for someone who has never seen anything before while in their physical bodies to report that they have sight during OBE or NDE when they don't have any memories of ever seeing before or know what it means to see?

But if the blind person already has memories of what it means to see before they went blind, then it is possible to see since they already know what it means .

However, it would take some adjusting of the blind person's perception outside their physical bodies to see anything

The time it takes to make this adjustment is dependent on the level of awareness of the blind person

It can happen immediately, not immediately or not all, as the blind may not have the time to make this adjustment before returning back to their physical bodies.

Consciousness requires a brain ,while in the physical body ,to receive impressions it interprets in order to make sense of what is going on in its immediate enviroment, and also to help to control the physical body to keep it going. But outside the body it doesn't require a brain to control anything since it is now operating without a physical body and can perceive things directly without the need of the five physical senses ,with what is perceived flashed across the mind/brain so one can have a recall of whatever one has experienced outside the body

This explanation is necessary because current brain theory says consciousness is controlled by the brain. That is true to a certain extent, but not completely true. It is within the physical body alone that consciousness requires a brain to operate the body. Outside the physical body it can operate unhindered by the brain. This is simple to understand but it is not understood by everyone. For instance, while in my car moving from one point to another, the car engine which acts as the 'brain' to make the car to move , but outside my car taking a stroll, I don't need the car and it's engine to move about. I can walk freely. Also I don't need my car mirror to view what is behind me . If I want to see anything I use my eyes.That is it.



Then for those born blind, how is it possible for some to have sight during NDE?

I already mentioned that what one experience outside their bodies is dependent one the individual's level of awareness.

So, a highly evolved soul who has lived before and still retain memories in their consciousness of what it means to see from a previous lifetime, may recall that experience and instantaneously make the adjustment to see something.

I understand the reason you have shared the above link. It is to support the idea that out of NDE or OBE are not real or are a product of hallucination.

Yes, majority of NDE experience are a product of hallucination caused by what one expect to see or experience if one finds himself outside their bodies.
Consciousness, the real being, while operating outside the human body, has the capacity to imstantenously experience anything it imagines or memories that it carries within it.

So ,a Christian, just like in a dream, may experience Jesus heaven, or hell during an NDE, and believes those experience are real without the understanding of what has caused it. And when the come out from the experience ,they are convinced and excited to report that heaven and hell are real.

A Muslim is expected to see something anything connected with their religion. For instance, 72 virgins with large eyes a massive breast to enjoy himself with.

Adherents of other religion, have NDEs that conforms to what they belief and expect to see.

One thing that is common with most people having NDE or OBE is that they have no control over what the experience. They are having the experience unconsciously and so cannot control it.

The other type of NDE or OBE is the one that comes with veridical vision; the experiencer has a direct perception of objective reality, that is, the person sees something that is actually there, and when they return back to their body, it is confirmed that what they witnessed from outside their body actually exist and it is not imagination.

This particular NDE or OBE is a mystery for scientist who investigate this phenomenon to explain. Some scientist who think it's not possible to have this sort of NDE because current brain theory in the sciences says it is possible to have consciousness operating outside the body, have written articles to shamelessly tag such experience as still hallucination, while ignoring the obvious truth that if the experiencer is able to see something that correspond to objective reality, while having that form of NDE, it can never be classified as hallucination.

But the honest ones simply say it is a mystery to them or they are unverified stories at this stage since they constrained by current scientific knowledge in accepting those kind of experience as real.

There have been studies conducted into making sense of this other kind of NDE, but it has yeided the much needed success. The reason, I already mentioned it, is that most ,if not all ,of the subjects used in those studies don't have any control over their NDE or OBE experience. This is something they do not put into investigation while conducting those investigation
But I can tell you that some scientist are aware of this factor, but the challenge is to get those who can consciously do OBE at will and have also learnt to control the experience to participate in the investigation. I know, this is not making an excuse for anyone, that those who can do OBE at will and have achieved will never submit themselves to such investigation .
The solution is to learn how to do OBE themselves, so they have a direct experience of what they are trying to understand. They things one can do to have OBEs.

One cannot be investigating something one says it is not possible which others have experienced, and still think they can conduct such investigation without biases It is not possible.

The scientists who are in a better position to investigate NDEs or OBEs are agnostics scientist, not atheist or theist as they both would struggle to prevent subjective biases from interfering with whatever conclusion they would arrive at.

If anyone wants to be sure that OBEs are real , then they way to go is to have the experience yourself. It won't take anything from you, but you gain by knowing the truth directly yourself. There are ways and methods to achieve this. The Internet has a lot of resources that you can lay your hands on, and boom you are out of your body. But I advised you look for somebody to teach you how to do this personally, as some of the methods available online can contain sublimal suggestion to may drag one into experiencing what is delusion and you think you have had an authentic experience.

There's much more to say concerning NDEs or OBEs. I think what I have been explaining should be enough for now.

KnownUnknown:
Then I’ll tell you about my experience in the Afterlife where my spirit will combine with my thetan.

Thanks. I not interested in listening to your delusion.

LordReed:
Triplechoice, Deepsight

How would your view on the mind question explain this:

In a remarkable breakthrough, scientists from Israel have discovered that they can use saliva samples to quickly and accurately diagnose people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

In a study published in Nature’s Molecular Psychiatry magazine, researchers from Tel Aviv and Haifa Universities took saliva samples and investigated the psychological, social and medical conditions of about 200 Israeli veteran soldiers.

They discovered that soldiers who had experienced combat stress related reactions from Israel’s first war with Lebanon in 1982, and were still suffering post-trauma, showed a typical microbial picture in their saliva.

https://www.israel21c.org/study-ptsd-sufferers-share-bacterial-footprint-in-saliva/

The bacterial footprint found in the saliva is effect created by what goes on in the mind of those suffering from PTSD.

A diseased mind results in a diseased body and vice versa.

The mind is not something that is tangible or is it something located in a physical space inside of us. It's location is similar to our dream world that we experience each time we go to sleep, and it's known that what happens in our dreams sometimes affects our physical bodies through the brain.

While dreaming, we are most times drawn in to experiencing in pictures the thoughts inside our minds or brains if you prefer that, with what is experienced not viewed by others but ourselves alone..

So in summary, it should be understood that the mind is the inner mental construct that serves the being which has occupied a human body.

It is not something tangible, neither is it located in a physical space inside anyone

At death, mind is dissolved but memories contained in mind is retained in what is called the root consciousness, the real being.

It is for this reason some persons can recall
memories of their previous lives in a new body. Everyone who has lived before can recall their previous lifetime if they choose to. There are methods one can use to have this recall, and with what is recalled subjected to
some validation to ensure the individual is not just imagining things as a past life recall.

LordReed:
Triplechoice, Deepsight

How would your view on the mind question explain this:

In a remarkable breakthrough, scientists from Israel have discovered that they can use saliva samples to quickly and accurately diagnose people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

In a study published in Nature’s Molecular Psychiatry magazine, researchers from Tel Aviv and Haifa Universities took saliva samples and investigated the psychological, social and medical conditions of about 200 Israeli veteran soldiers.

They discovered that soldiers who had experienced combat stress related reactions from Israel’s first war with Lebanon in 1982, and were still suffering post-trauma, showed a typical microbial picture in their saliva.

https://www.israel21c.org/study-ptsd-sufferers-share-bacterial-footprint-in-saliva/

Double post Sorry. Just deleted this

KnownUnknown:
Awww, my poor Buda. It must have been your thetan preventing the spirit from doing its job.

Next time when the light bulb in your room suddenly goes off, remove the dead bulb and stick your naked fingers into the sucket to test if it contains electric current.

Hope this make some sense?

TenQ:
How?
Is is not of matter, time or space.

My scientific knowledge tells me that Something/Someone Mysterious and Indescribable beyond space, time, matter and laws of physics set off the ball of the universe rolling.

Science does not Prove who or what the Uncaused First Cause is because science limits itself to AFTER the big bang.

If your scientific knowledge has told you that something/someone mysterious has set off the ball of the universe rolling, then is it the same science that has made you conclude that this mysterious something is an 'he' and not a she or it?

You have been using the personal pronoun,he, to describe this mysterious something. How do you know it is an he? Have you seen this 'he' before?

If one is going to agree with you that this mysterious something is an he, then it would be interesting to know what has created the body of this he if you think it has one.Did this he create or caused his own body and from what material?

Please don't quote the Bible in your reply. Stick to the science you have been using all along as it would not make any sense at this point to quote any religious text to prove that this mysterious something is an ,he or whatever

The re some religious groups who have argued that it is an "it" and not an 'he' that has set the ball of the universe rolling, and they can equally use the same argument as yours to prove this by simply substituting 'it' for 'he' wherever you have used it and it wouldn't make any difference.

So how did this mysterious something became an 'he' for you.

ICEKING95:
Until you can give a scientific meaning to Miracles and Divine Healing, don't tell me that God is not real!.. He Is Real.. Don't be Deceived

There's scientific explanation for what people experience as miracles and divine healing.

A little search on the net will reveal it to you

Maynman:
Of course everyone is born an atheist.
Ask a 6 baby what does “god” mean.

No one is born an atheist. The idea that everyone is born an atheist is a false narrative being pushed forward by some atheist who don't want to accept responsibility for the decision they have taken not to believe in a god without evidence.

They also want to create the impression that being an atheist is natural since we were all born that way. But this is not true.

I see it has shifting the blame for what they have chosen to become, and one needs to ask ,why? There's nothing really wrong in towing the part of reason over religious indoctrination.


Being an atheist is the personal conviction that deities do not exist and there is enough reason to take that postion.

Babies don't have such conviction yet. They're
born neutral and so can't be labelled as atheist, theist or anything else.

Apart from the religious God or gods presented to use by the different religion in our midst, nobody is sure if something that be liken to a God doesn't exist

So the correct thing is that babies are born neutral and not atheist

Templee333:
I didn't knw there a difference btw temple & centre

You didn't know because you didn't interact closely enough with them to know the difference.

Anyway ,continue with your story so others can learn from your experience.

Templee333:
INSIDE OF AN ECK TEMPLE
i've been inside only one eck temple & here's hw it looks like:
a large picture of the Mahanta (a whiteman) in suit & tie stands in the front,
a platform with a pulpit,chairs & table;
special seats 4 singers & another seats 4 some group of men/women i dont knw their title;
A general seat for the congregation;
in the back a large chat is pasted in which the worlds of eck is described: the name of each plane of existence,its ruler,sound & chant;
then a notice board is pasted in the back wall. There's a loudspeaker & microphone but didnt see band set except a keyboard. There's room for creativity so a man came with his flute & there was no problem.

I am not a member of eckankar ,but from what I know about the group, having associated with them in the past for a number of years I can correctly tell you that the place you described above is not an eckankar Temple but an eck centre where members and anyone, who is interested in joining them, meet for their worship service on sundays and other activities during the week

There's only one eck Temple In Nigeria and it's in Rumiugbo Port Harcourt.

Continue narrating your experience and don't allow what I just explained discourage you. I am following as I followed your Olumba experience.

Minime10:
In all their suggestions, it baffles me to note that, the Governors never suggested a cut to their monthly security votes, their car allawances, wodrope allawances, furniture allowance, medical trip allowances & side chics allowances etc.
How more useless can these bunch of APC idiots be

You forgot to add that some ex governors are earning unnecessary pension too. Some of the cutremt governors advising the federal government can't see anything wrong in that.because they too are looking forward to the time they will start earning their own pension.

A governer for 8 years will earn pension for life while someone who has put in over 30 years in the civil service will be paid off once and for all ,and in the voice of the governors "should go and die."

These governors are wicked

KingAzubuike:
So the next thing you could think of was juju?

No .I never thought juju.

KingAzubuike:
Try dey read ehn, it will help you alot. No be everything be juju. Even before reading , I knew it was some psycho that must have laced the bill with a bio weapon probably ricin .. anyways it was laced with fentanyl

You didn't read it too

From the story,there's no evidence the money was laced with fentany or any bio weapon.

UyaiIncomparabl:
I would never do the same. I have no right to choose for my sons. What my son wants is what I will let him choose. It's none of my business. Why should I care? They only have my blessings, that's all.

I also will never do stupid tests. I am too educated and modern for that. If any guy tries that with me, break up straight. Shows your family is poverty-ridden and minded.

You don't choose for your sons, but the rich don't want irresponsible people to be part of their family circle, and because of this, they show concern about the kind of relationship their children are into.

It is poor people like you who assume the rich don't care about certain things. You deceive yourself.

Your life is your responsibility, and not the world's

Learn to deal with the rejection you behavior has cost you, and stop crying.

You don't know me offline ,so keep you imagined poverty stricken life to yourself.