₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight: Ah, for once, I am full with thehomer on this issue o.

Nobody can become "good", "forgiven" or "blameless" merely by accepting "Jesus" as his "personal lord and saviour" No one. In fact, I will go so far as to say that Jesus himself said so. It cannot happen.

This touches on the issues in "Succinctly Anony" and so i think we should do that phone recording and post here sooner rather than later.

thehomer: And my point is that the judge who wasn't harmed, who cannot even be harmed is in no position to forgive. If a person steals from someone, the person who forgives is the victim and not the person passing the sentence.

If you say that someone who is executed for committing mass murder is a good person because of this declaration while someone whose only crime was stealing a loaf of bread to feed himself and his hungry sister before being killed is a bad person, then the problem lies with your conception of what it means to be a good or bad person. Your conception of being good or bad is divorced from what people actually do.

frosbel: Man's Body + spirit ( the breath of God in him ) = Living SOUL

Man's Body - spirit (the breath of God in him) = Dead Body

The Human soul does not exist after death , period.

His spirit returns to GOD.


"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."


spirit can be defined as :

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.

or

ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: ר֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Short Definition: spirit

Sources - http://concordances.org/hebrew/7307.htm and http://concordances.org/greek/4151.htm

chukwudi44: Where in the bible did it say the eucharist is not the real body and blood of christ

chukwudi44: No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.

We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Saviour became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.

The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.

On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.

The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our saviour Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration.

~first Apology of st Justin matyr

chukwudi44: It is allowed to no one else to participate in that food which we call Eucharist except the one who believes that the things taught by us are true, who has been cleansed in the washing unto rebirth and the forgiveness of sins and who is living according to the way Christ handed on to us. For we do not take these things as ordinary bread or ordinary drink. Just as our Savior Jesus Christ was made flesh by the word of God and took on flesh and blood for our salvation, so also were we taught that the food, for which thanksgiving has been made through the word of prayer instituted by him, and from which our blood and flesh are nourished after the change, is the flesh of that Jesus who was made flesh. Indeed, the Apostles, in the records left by them which are called gospels, handed on that it was commanded to them in this manner: Jesus, having taken bread and given thanks said, ``Do this in memory of me, this is my body.'' Likewise, having taken the cup and given thanks, he said, ``This is my blood'', and he gave it to them alone.

The Sunday Assembly

Furthermore, after this we always remind one another of these things. Those who have the means aid those who are needy, and we are always united. Over everything which we take to ourselves we bless the Creator of the universe through His Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

On the day called after the sun [Sunday] there is a meeting for which all those dwelling in the cities or in the countryside come together. The records of the Apostles or the writings of the prophets are read as long as time allows. When the reader has stopped, the one who is presiding admonishes and encourages us by a sermon to the imitation of those good examples.

Then we all stand up together and lift up our prayers and, as I said previously, when we have finished our prayer, bread is brought forth and wine and water. The one who is presiding offers up prayers and thanksgiving according to his ability and the people acclaim their assent with ``Amen.'' There is the distribution of and participation on the part of each one in the gifts for which thanks has been offered, and they are sent to those who are not present through the deacons.

We all come together on the day of the sun since it is the first day, on which God changed darkness and matter and made the world. On that day, Jesus Christ our Savior arose from the dead. They crucified him on the day preceding that of Saturn, and on the day of the sun he appeared to his Apostles and disciples and taught them these things which we have presented also to you for inspection.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, [5,2,2] 180 A.D.

MacDaddy01: And if you believe ay modern church is better, then you have "missed road" as well.


All modern churches are descendants to the catholic church. By doctrine of original sin, you cant distance yourself from them. The only churches that can claim not to be a descendant of the catholic church are orthodox churches which unfortunately have become more allied with the catholic church.


Furthermore, the bible was compiled by the catholic church. The arrangement and numbering. That is a fact that modern protestant want to forget but it is impossible to overlook.

Pastor AIO: It is easy to sit aloof on a high chair and point the finger at the Catholic Church, but the church is made of human beings. And human beings err. Even immediately after anointing Peter as the foundation of his church Jesus has cause to call him 'Satan'. Does that mean that Jesus didn't know what he was doing when he said, " on this rock I will build my church".

Please take a closer look at the passages.

13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rockb I will build my church, and the gates of hellc shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosedd in heaven.” 20Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

21From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord!e This shall never happen to you.” 23[i]But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrancef to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”[/i]

MacDaddy01: Berean Jews? Were they christians?

MacDaddy01: Berean Jews? Were they christians?

chukwudi44: St ignatius is now a false prophet because he does not agree with your own view of the euchaurist.st ignatius was privileged to have lived with the apostles and thus had the opportunity of hearing the true teaching of the apostles.I would rather listen to such a great man than listen to you.His life was a fitting testimony to the true xtian faith.He proved that with his life as he was killed by being fed to lions for his fearless proclaimation of the faith

mkmyers45: lol..you are funny arent ya? Wonder what will have happened if the RCC had not repeled ottoman attacks...

chukwudi44: You keep shouting early xtians were persecuted just give me a name you have failed to do so you keep blabbing.

Give me just one name of an early xtian who lived in the second,third and fourth centuries

danwo: ^^^^

If you are shown another scripture would the allegiance change, again?



^^^

There are no problems with the gap theory.

The "Gap Theory" poses no threat to the 6 days of creation

The 6 days of creation is the creation of the Adam world ; humankind world

The new physical world was created in 6 days for Man using earth, its surroundings etc.


"Where is there time for a gap?" you asked

The time for the gap is before time started ticking in Genesis 1:3

With all due respects, my dear sire, you err awfully, because before Adam, there was death.

God promised Adam death, God guaranteed Adam death, literally

The bible even says the "wages of sin is death"

The money paid for sin, death, the reward for sin was in the "safe"

kept for a rainy day or a day such as when sin is committed

When that singular command was violated/broken

death which was alive but dormant got activated.

DEATH reared its ugly head and entered the world

Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:

- Roman 5:12 KJV

So before Adam was, there was death of animals, there was death of some other kind(s)

The diseases etc too that you mentioned though unfortunate & unpleasant

are the consequences or aftereffects of a ground that is cursed
(i.e. the aftermath of a cursed ground)


You are right about "there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood”

Right in the sense that Adam was the first man or human being and so no human beings died in the “Lucifer's flood”

The fact remains that the earth and world at that time got destroyed when a flood covered the earth

not covering the highest mountains as in Noah's Flood but like in the state captured from Genesis 1:2 onwards



^^^^^

At Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

Before the above there were five " . . . and God saw that it was good" for creation but that qualifier eluded Man

Collectively every thing as a whole was good. Individually, man? Erm?

God must have known something about Man for Him to hold back appending the qualifier after the creation of man as did with other creations

aletheia: Satan did not fall before the creation of Adam. This point has been addressed elsewhere in the past.

---

. . .There was a time when I believed the gap theory just like you but Exodus 20:11 shattered that illusion. . .

[center]Was or Became[/center]


"Gappists" translate “the earth was without form and empty” as “the earth became [or, ‘had become’] without form and empty.” At stake is the translation of the Hebrew word hayetah (a form of the Hebrew verb, hayah, “to be”).
The meaning of a word is controlled by its context, and verse 2 is circumstantial to verse 1. Thus, “was” is the most natural and appropriate translation for hayetah. It is rendered this way in almost all English versions (as well as the Septuagint). Furthermore, in Genesis 1:2 hayetah [/i]is not followed by the preposition [i]le, which would have removed any ambiguity in the Hebrew and required the translation “became.”

[center]Problems with the gap theory:[/center]

1. It is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states.

Exodus 20:11 says, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy”. Thus, the creation of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) and the sea and all that is in them (the rest of creation) was completed in six days. Where is there time for a gap?

2. It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.

From Romans 5:12, “Therefore, even as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as have sinned,” we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam. The Bible teaches (1 Corinthians 15) that Adam was the first man, and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe. Before Adam sinned there could not have been any animal or human death. Note also that there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood” because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the “first” man.

Romans 8:22 teaches us that “we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” Clearly the whole of creation was, and is, subject to decay and corruption because of sin. The fossil record shows disease, decay, and death. When gap theorists believe that disease, decay, and death existed before Adam sinned, they ignore that this contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

Most importantly, the gap theory undermines the gospel at its foundations.

By accepting an ancient age for the earth (based on the standard uniformitarian interpretation of the geologic column), gap theorists leave the evolutionary system intact (which by their own assumptions they oppose).

Even worse, they must also theorize that Romans 5:12 and Genesis 3:3 refer only to spiritual death. But this contradicts other Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3:22-23). These passages tell us that Adam's sin led to physical death as well as spiritual death. In 1 Corinthians 15 the death of the last Adam (the Lord Jesus Christ) is compared with the death of the first Adam. Jesus suffered physical death for man's sin, because Adam, the first man, died physically because of sin. Genesis 3:22-23 tells us that if Adam and Eve could have partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever, but God decreed that they should die physically because of their sin.

The gap (or “ruin-reconstruction”) theory is based on a very tenuous interpretation of Scripture.

[center]The Straightforward Meaning of Genesis 1:1-2[/center]

The gap (or “ruin-reconstruction”) theory is based on a very tenuous interpretation of Scripture.

The simple, straightforward meaning of Genesis 1:1-2 is that when God at the beginning created the earth it was initially formless, empty, and dark, and God's Spirit was there above the waters. It was through His creative energy that the world was then progressively “formed and filled” during the remaining six days of creation.

Consider the analogy of a potter making a vase. The first thing he does is get a ball of clay. What he has is good, but it is unformed. Next, he shapes it into a vase, using his potter's wheel. Now it is no longer formless. He then might dry it, apply glaze, and fire it. Now it is ready to be filled—with flowers and water. At no time could one of the stages be considered evil or bad. It was just not finished—unformed (without form) and unfilled (void). When it was finally formed and filled, it could be described as “very good.”

God, of course, did not have to take six days to create everything, but he did this deliberately as a pattern for us—for our seven-day week.

You can follow up on this here

---

We must also understand that if Satan sinned and fell before Adam was created. . .that would mean that Creation was already marred since sin would then be already present on day six and thus God would not have said this: "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

But since at the end of the sixth day it was very good. . .then we know that Satan hadn't fallen then and there was no sin any where in all of creation.

Threads which previously discussed some of these views:
Was There A World Before Genesis 1?
How Long Did Adam & Eve Live In The Garden Of Eden?

plaetton: Arrant nonesense.

This sounds just great.
Hate the world that you were born into, the world that nurishes you with her bounties, and then love the world that you have been promised, the world that you dont know, dont see, and will never see in this lifetime.

Mugus are born everyday.

frosbel: You know there is only one step from you calling people haters to actually killing them

This is exactly what the catholic church did to anyone and everyone who disagreed with their church doctrine. They first of all declared them heretics , gave them a window of opportunity to repent and if this was rejected , hunted them down and killed , tortured or incarcerated them.

thehomer: I don't need to do that, I can simply show that he didn't need to create the fruit.



I don't even think there was a garden of Eden. As far as I'm concerned, it is just one other myth.



Adam won't have needed that instruction if there was no fruit.



With respect to the issue in bold, are you saying the contradiction is null and void or that the understanding is null and void?

frosbel: They need prayer, I was once a catholic and a general secretary for their youth fellowship a few years ago.

They are so blind, it can only take the grace and mercy of God to remove the thick veil that has been placed over their eyes.

They put tradition over God's word.

chukwudi44: Honestly when I said you should stop making a fool of yourself you should have taken my advice.After the apostles died did the church disapear? Did they not groom successors?
Who were the major christian leaders of the second,third and fourth centuries

chukwudi44: 41. truthislight: Quote Post

chukwudi44:
However, the early churches knew what they had to be genuine and they held on/pass it along.

Please which group of people made up these early church?

Do you mind telling me any member of this church who lived in the second,third and fourth centuries

mkmyers45: What is your argument?