₦airaland Forum

noetic, nobody is trying to downplay the act of faith which is the water baptism. The point here is that it is not a part of what gets one saved. The conclusion is water baptism comes after being saved and not in the process of getting saved(refering to the saved that Christ referred to in John 3:16,not the continuous process till Christ's return). It is an act performed after being saved.Entry into salvation/the body of Christ/christianity requires only belief in Christ and nothing else. Any other thing is simply an act of faith.

JeSoul:
ttalks, long time how've you been?

Hi Jesoul
I've been fine. Just been browsing through nairaland without commenting. . . . . .

[quote author=Ephesians 1:13]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,[/quote][quote author=Galatians 3:27]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.[/quote][quote author=1 Corinthians 12:13]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.[/quote][quote author=Ephesians 4:4-5]There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,[/quote]One thing I believe is that once a person believes in Jesus Christ, he/she is saved.
But this saving process is put into action by the work of the holy spirit; that is, the baptism of the holy Spirit.
So it is safe to say that a person is saved after the baptism of the holy Spirit which takes place after the person believes in Jesus Christ(and this takes place immediately and not later as some believe).
This is in synchrony with what John the Baptist said about Jesus's mission/ministry(which we understand to be the salvation of men):

Mat 3:11
(11)  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

So,it is to say that Jesus' work of salvation is ochestrated through one's belief which results in the baptism of the holy Spirit and finally,the state of being saved.

It is when one is saved that he/she becomes a part of the body of Christ, right?
Well, 1 Corintians 12:13 which i quoted above shows us the agency by which that takes place; the baptism of the holy Spirit.

So what is the point I'm trying to make?

Well, since the question raised by the OP seems to be inquiring if water baptism is necessary for salvation, my explanations above show that the baptism necessary for salvation is the baptism of the holy Spirit and not the baptism by water.
Based on all these, I am very sure that the one baptism which was spoken about in Ephesians 4:5(quoted above) is the baptism of the holy Spirit.

Water baptism is just one of the acts to show one's faith,not an agency to bring one into the faith.

Joagbaje:
@aletheia

Your ignorace is appaling,

Point of correction, Jesus is not the only begotten , .Every christian is begooten by the word. Jesus is no longer only begotten but now he is first begotten.We are his brothers!

Your lack of understanding of the true message makes it hard for you to descern the difference between truth and lesser truths. The fact that James was brother of Jesus should not be an issue. There is a saying that "The age of Methuselah can not be compared to the wisdom of Solomon"  It is childish to use the relationship of Jesus with james as legality or endorsement for James teaching. We judge all things according to the whole body of truth.not with your miopic religious eyes.
James was not part of the 12 deciples of Christ, There is no record of his conversion before Jesus went to the cross. record we have was that he and his brother Jude i think did not believe in Jesus.

John 7:5
    For neither did his brethren believe in him.

James was one of the last  apostles to be converted, He was a kind of principality in the early church and he troubled the ministry of Paul a littlel, People feared him. James did not have deep knowledge of grace and justification  like Paul did.

James 2:21
    Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Contrast it with Paul's teaching here

Romans 4:2-3
    For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 3:28
    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Who's teaching would you rather follow. I wont be suprised if you follow James here because he was "teacher of babe" but I will rather follow teaching of Paul. James still believed in the works of the law. he had good dctrines but he was religious like some nairalanders here. James still teach that a man must be circumcised according to the law to be saved.He terrorised the early church with his teachings in his ignorance that Peter the great apostle was afraid of him.

Galatians 2:11-16
    But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. [12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. [13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. [14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? [15] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, [16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So if you are a follower of James, your life is a vapour!  according to his teachings. But if you believe in the message of Paul, we are growing up to the fullness of christ.

Ephes. 4:13
    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

You said truth is contant .You are wrong there again. There are lesser truth and greater truths. That is why peter recomended milk and Paul recommended meat

1 Peter 2:2
    As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Hebrews 5:13
    For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Joeagbaje,

you always will keep on showing how poorly you handle the word of God. Everything you wrote here is just a repetition of what your "father";
Chris has been teaching you.
Your programmed mode is described thus: "Since Pastor Chris said it is this way, it has to be true because Pastor Chris cannot be wrong."

Foolish! Very Foolish! !

Please go through this verses from James carefully in the Amplified version of the bible and tell us truthfully if what he is saying contrasts with what Paul said in Romans 4 :

Jas 2:14-26
(14)  What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
(15)  If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
(16)  And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
(17)  So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
(18)  But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
(19)  You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as make a man's hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
(20)  Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
(21)  Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac? [Gen. 22:1-14.]
(22)  You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
(23)  And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God's will in thought and deed), and he was called God's friend. [Gen. 15:6; II Chron. 20:7; Isa. 41:8.]
(24)  You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
(25)  So also with Rahab the harlot--was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route? [Josh. 2:1-21.]
(26)  For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.


It is becoming very clear that the use of English Language is a heavy problem for you.
Any clear brained person will see that James was referring to the fruit or proof of one's faith in terms of visible acts or activities done and not works of the law.

Remember Christ's words: "By their fruit you shall know them, " ?

That is very well connected to this. Without fruit/proof to show that you are of faith or have faith, your faith is very well dead.

Joagbaje: James still believed in the works of the law. he had good dctrines but he was religious like some nairalanders here. James still teach that a man must be circumcised according to the law to be saved.

Are you sure you are not lying against James? Did you not read his position on this circumcision issue in Acts 15? 

jaffi:
@viaro,
what i meant was WITHOUT FAITH there is noway we will/can relate God.
secondly,i really wonder why you'r finding it so difficult understanding this-divinity stuff.
Jesus is the head.you agree?
and we are His body.agree?
so,now answer me,Is your head different from your body?
which happens to be the same you?

so if Jesus is divine then are we divine.
don't you get?
This thing is by revelation and revelations comes by studing,meditation and praying.
Not by human assumptions.

In relation to the question in bold:

Yes, the head is different from the body.
How?
Simple. The body is the sum total of the body parts; while the head is a part.

Or will you say the head has legs and arms apart from those which the body has?
Or the arms have ears eyes and teeth apart from the ones which the body has?

Below is probably how you guys look based on your interpretation:

Back to you agbaje. . . . .

You need to know this certain fact: God's will is not subject to what any man;believer or non believer, does or does not do.
God's will definitely will come to pass irrespective of what anybody does or does not do.
So do not spread around the heresy that is inherent in most of your posts that man's actions could affect God's will in anyway because they can never.

Conclusion: Faith or no faith, God's will certainly will come to pass.

fyneguy . . . . . . . nuella2

Why have you two not answered the question i asked you?

Why the claims and nothing to show for them?

Joagbaje,

The more I read from you, the more i discover that it is a fruitless exercise trying to make you see the light. But however . . . . .

Rom 10:6-10
(6) But the righteousness based on faith [imputed by God and bringing right relationship with Him] says, Do not say in your heart, Who will ascend into Heaven? that is, to bring Christ down;
(7) Or who will descend into the abyss? that is, to bring Christ up from the dead [as if we could be saved by our own efforts]. [Deut. 30:12, 13.]
( But what does it say? The Word (God's message in Christ) is near you, on your lips and in your heart; that is, the Word (the message, the basis and object) of faith which we preach, [Deut. 30:14.]
(9) Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
(10) For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.


Belief is all that is necessary for salvation in Christ. Every other thing such as speaking/confessing do not play a part in the salvation process; they are simply acts based on faith. Speaking or confessing with the lips as shown above has to do with open declaration of one's faith; it is not an ingredient of salvation(remember John 3:16).

Rather one can call it a result of one's faith.

So, do not try to give a convoluted meaning of what the verses above are saying to suit your WOF delusions.

Joagbaje:
What is this continous Hala on WOF .
The word of God is the word of faith.The word of faith is the utterance of your faith with your mouth.

Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Any Christian criticising word of faith should be ashamed of himself to even display such ignorance openly. So what do you preach? Word of death?

Oga sir, take a look at this below:

Rom 10:8-9
( But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Verse 9 which is in bold is the word of faith that the apostles preached. It does not in any way conform with what the word of faith movement is about.
So get your facts right before you rant.

And, please o; I'm still waiting for fyneguy and nuella2 to tell us what they can do that unbelievers can't; remembering the parameters i set on the question.

fyneguy:
They are not Faith applications but acting on Faith based on what God instructed? OK!

What did God say that the woman with the issue of blood acted on that pulled power out of Jesus and healed the woman?

Well, I believe you should know that the people of that time also had the old testament writings(torah). And it definitely contained a lot of
stuff about the messiah(Jesus Christ) which any body could have faith on and act based upon.

eg.

Mal 4:2
(2)  But unto you who revere and worshipfully fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings and His beams, and you shall go forth and gambol like calves [released] from the stall and leap for joy.

Also, belief in the fact that he was the messiah and also the evidence of the miracles he had been performing.

What did Jesus want us to act on when he said if we had Faith as little as the mustard seed, the mountain shall respond?

Simple! The fact which his word proves to us that he is God and will do anything according to his will; that nothing is impossible with him.
The fact that he is able to do all things is to make us act with firmness of trust and belief that he will do concerning our petitions, desires and requests according to his sovereign will, mercy and purpose.

Putting it simply; . . .  the fact that God is God(If you know what that means. . . ).

fyneguy:
Did you really ask that? Thank God for this thread. It has exposed why some people say what they say.

There's no need for all the mystery. If you could help nuella2 and give an example of what you can do that non believers can't do, that would help.
Let's see what example you can give.

And please do not give examples like being able to commune with God or stuff like that cos that does not count because non believers do not count it as anything.

What should count is something that you can do that they would have loved to do but can't because of their unbelieving statuses.
Afterall, that's what all the gibberish you guys spew everyday implies.

fyneguy:
Faith is believing and trusting in something?  Please give biblical reference to back up that claim.

Mister, I said faith is believing and trusting in something based on what God has said about that thing; not the shortened version you rendered above.
Go through the whole of Hebrews 11 to see the picture.

Faith can not be applied?  When Jesus said if you had faith as small as a mustard seed and say to the mountain to________ that's not an application?

When the the woman with the issue of blood used her faith to pull power out of Jesus, that's no application abi?

Have you read this line in the bible-  "Your faith has made you whole'' ? Was it not because someone applied faith ?

Ok bros, go back to the scriptures and study more on Faith. thank you

I don't call the stuff you highlighted above "applications" of faith.

Rather, I call them acts of or acts based on faith.
Do you know what acting based on faith means?
It is acting based on what the faith constitution(the word of God) says.

Let me give an example:

When the word of God says: love your neighbours/enemies; and then it is evident in your actions that you love your enemies /neighbours,
then, you are acting on faith or based on faith. This is because if the word of God did not instruct such, you might not have shown such action.
You did that or acted so based on what the word of God required of you.

That, is acting based on faith.

It is not the magical scenario which you guys believe in such as "calling something into existence out of nothing" or "faithing something into existence"  

nuella2:
The holy ghost resides in me, i have the life of christ, am born of God, i do what natural men(non believers) cant do. Am i just a man? certainly another class of man.

Can you give an example of what you can do that non believers cannot do?

As regards application, I don't think faith is a tool that can be applied.
Faith is the sum total of our belief system. It is the content of what God has declared that makes up our faith.

It is faith that makes us who we are; without faith we aren't believers(people who believe in God).
So, I guess our faith marks us out as children of God; believers in God and what he has declared and done and will do.

Heb 11:6
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So, the only "application" of faith as it would seem is to please God.

As regards what faith can't achieve,. . . . . . .well, there are so many things faith can't achieve, but I'll summarise them as anything God did not state in his will or anything that isn't according to God's will and ultimate purpose.

The significance of faith now is to see us through life as we await the end of faith; which is the return of Christ.

fyneguy:
We have read so much about FAITH from those who have been labelled '''members of the word of faith movement'' for so long.

Perhaps to set the record straight,'' the Non-WOF faithfuls'' should please do an expose on the true FAITH', with scriptural references.

We'll like to know:

*what FAITH is

*Its significance now

*Applications (with precise examples, in the bible days and now)

*What can't Faith achieve, if any?


Thank you

Faith is believing and trusting in something based on what God has said about that thing.
Then, that means,If God did not say something about an issue, we can't believe in it.
It is a firm persuasion and expectation that God will perform all he has promised us in Christ.

The word of God is saying the same thing it has always been saying ever since its inception.
There is nothing new and there will never be anything new.

Miracles occuring;immediate or not immediate, are all dependent on the will and mercy of God. It is not about the faith or amount of faith.

jo agbaje said something about praying for the dead to rise and none had risen yet. He alluded that his faith not being at a certain level was the reason for this.

That is false. The bible says if one's faith could even be as little as that of a mustard seed, a lot could happen. . . . . . . .

So, it isn't about the faith not being at a particular level that some miracles do not happen or whatever. It all depends on God's will and purpose as regarding that point in time.
If it is not God's will that a dead person rise again, there is no amount or level of faith displayed or acted upon that can raise such a person to life.

One thing we should always remember in our prayers or hopes in faith is that God's will is supreme and if our intentions and desires fall in line with it, a lot could and can happen.


1 John 5:14

ukotmi:
I have noticed that nothing good comes from CEC as far as KunleOshob is concerned. Well, KunleOshob is the one bearing false testimonies against CEC. How can he speak with authority on a church he knows nothing about? Before I can accept what he is saying,he needs to visit CEC for a month and then come to the forum and air his opinion. Otherwise, he is only repeating hearsay and prejudiced views. I rarely speak on any church until i have visited it and interacted with the members and leadership.

I have been to Watchman, Deeperlife, Redeemed,CEC, Catholic, Anglican etc and can point a lot of things observed on close interaction. Look into a matter very well before dropping your comment. And nobody born of a woman has the final say on wether any preacher or pastor is right or wrong.God is the final judge. I have gained a lot by listening to several preachers. I pick the sound aspects of their messages and dump the wrong ones.

Examples: I listen to the Lord's Chosen TV choir ministration but have no business with their stand on women not wearing ear rings etc.

What is the need for him to visit CEC for you to believe him?
If he does go there and comes back still saying what he has been saying and more, u'll simply dismiss him as a liar; or that he never went there.

Afterall, that is what was done when sirJohn gave his account of the happenings in CEC(Note: He was a member).

efoghorjos:
KunleOshob,
I think you are one of the big fools in this country who spark off religious crises. How would you speak blasphemously against God and his chosen vessels? First I noticed you used the word PLC in front of the church and then used "Lawd" in place of the Lord. Do you now assume God is your playmate or what? If you do not have respect for your parents, community leaders and your family don't expose your stupidity to the whole world in the name of being vocal.
I do not know who Pastor Joe Agbaje is, but I think all men of God should be respected and not for basket mouths like you to begin to judge them in advance when they have not done anything to warrant such attacks and insinuation.

^^^obviously the above poster doesn't know anything about the going ons around here.

KunleOshob:
In addition to the above any aspiring member who is not up to date in their tithes and first fruit would definitely not be welcome thjose who have consistently sowed seeds in addition to their up to date tithing and first fruit would be highly favoured. For those of you who are not up to date you would need to make special sacrificial offerings and sow a very big seed it is only then that you would be considered for any position in our propoed ministry. I would supply my account details shortly were you can pay all your outstanding tithes, first fruits and seed sowing.

Regional Finance Manager!

jagunlabi:
Please, anybody who wants to get a slice of the national divine cake should, henceforth, follow the pator's example and state their claim with the backing of an appropriate scriptural quote.No scripture quote, no consideration for any post.If you are of the islamic faith, please, you are not welcome, unless you can also quote from the bible and have made the right decision to convert, not only to christianity, but exclusively to pastor agbaje's church.The submission from any member of any other church will not be considered.
Thank you.

^^^^ Ha! I didn't know somebody had already taken the job of the Human Resource Manager for the church.  

I offer my services as Chief Security Officer to the aspiring G.O. I'll make certain no fool comes near the G.O.
Alternatively, I also offer services for all the artwork required by the church for adverts.

efosanice:
that statement by viatro is a well structured lie from the pit of hell.

tithe belongs to GOd, offering is free-willed, don't let him mix the two up . Even though ive seen that what they said about your mind already made is true, you just needed people to back you up and on nairaland you would find a million to lead you in the wrong direction.

What is this mongoloid(in reasoning) saying? 
You simply have no idea about anything. No single clue!

^^^ Ok. . . .well done!

The eagle eye is going to monitor progress.

olowolekan:
Well, all can say for now is to let you know again that tithe is not optional but compulsory.All you have read from Holy Bible is not enough to drive the point home.,se.The problem with you is that you need to be washed with the blood of Jesus before you reason like Him.I quoted from  both old and new testament to suport my points yet your heart could not take it.Anyone who fails to tithe is a thief and is robbing God.A thief will not get to Heaven.
A christian woman failed to tithe for some month and she observed the sales was decreasing and later no customer patronised her.She went to God in prayer and God spoke ''You are a thief,you have been robbing me,so so date you sold this and this, where is mine'' She repented and restituted and her business came back to life.We are serving a living God not graven image or carved wood.Tithe is not optional.God bless you as you restitute.

^^^^ Please o, we need more rebutals/refutals against this heresy .  
Kunle has given his which is very normal.
But I'm expecting rebutals from those who willingly tithe with the knowledge that tithing isn't compulsory.
Let's go there! ! !

viaro:
When someone comes up to say - . . should we stand by and look, wondering if that was "absolute" or 'relative' - especially if he does so in all caps??

So, what would be ur suggestion as to dealing with a situation like this?
Direct confrontation with the person that made the comment or a general rebuttal of the comment?
Which do you think it should be?

And for either option, how consistent should it be? Should it be anytime the comment comes up or is indicated, or should it be just a few remarks to refute such a comment?  

woye77:
traugott - i'm suprised u re saying this - u are misleading people - tithing is COMPULSORY read Malachi 3 vs 6-10

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty.

It was compulsory under the old testament. It certainly is not compulsory under the new testament.

viaro:
What point are you trying to make? Yes, I am brash especially to 'Christians' who propel a lie and never ever try to take a moment to reason with others! The point is that Hebrews 7 DOES NOT abolish tithes. If he (or you on his behalf) think it does, rather than repeat the lie ad infinitum, why don't you guys address the point? At least, I applaud you for your attempt to be reasonable - but your opening remarks about my ignoring all else he stated was just uncalled for.

The point I was trying to make was that there is a very clear difference between tithing in the days of the old covenant and any tithing that might exist in the new covenant.
The old covenant made tithing a responsibility of the people according to some stated laws. It was something they had to do at certain points in time; no escaping it, no issue of "if you want to or not" or "as you wish to do it". When the time comes for tithing, it must be done.
Hence the statement in hebrews 7:5 saying the levites were mandated by the law to take the tithes of the people; making them sort of like enforcers of that law.

In the new covenant, there is no obligation to tithe, no enforcer to enforce tithe payments and no stated rule saying you must give 10% of this or that at this point in time or anytime to whomever. All that exists in the new testament is giving as determined by the giver to meet needs as they come. This is the same as regards any giving that might amount to 10% of its source and which could be called a tithe.

Very, very clear differences between the tithe that exists in the old testament and that which might crop up in the new.
Now when I spoke to Enigma at first, I made it clear that the point one could glean from Hebrews 7 is the point i have stated above.
And that is : hebrews 7 not abolishing tithes but making clear the fact that tithes as practiced then is not the same as now based on the conditions surrounding their giving; required/obligatory at certain points in time as against not required but as one wishes or determines(if it turns out to be a tithe/10%).

viaro:
No, I did not ignore everything - other or instant - of what he said, but made clear where i find his lie most appalling. The assertion that Hebrews 7 abolishes tithing is a huge lie from the pit of hell smuggled in among the "everything else" he said, so that here it might help you his apologist to make a pretentious note like you didn't see what I had highlighted. Please stop playing the joker.

Isn't this a further lie? Could I take you seriously, or would you like to come back and quickly edit?

But doesn't the same Hebrews 7 show you the tithe of ABRAHAM? And what was Levi's tithe compared to ABARAHAM? Here is what verse 9 says: "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham." What does that say? It says simply that BEFORE EVEN LEVI WAS BORN, the tithes of Abraham superceded the Levitical tithes! Tell me, how is it that the "WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT" argues tithe on the basis of Levi's tithes?

You guys are too cheap! You only see what you want to see.

You are too high spirited and brash to see what point a person is trying to pass across.
Now, calm down and read through my two posts on this thread and try to see the point i was trying to make you see. if you can't see itas ur post above is showing, tell me and i'll make it easy for you.
Jeez! ! !

Enigma:
As you must realise from my posts elsewhere, I do not have a problem if someone who knows that there is no Christian obligation to "tithe" chooses to do so. The "tithing" that is constantly debated on this forum is invariably obligatory tithing --- the basis of which again invariably is the Old Testament. Hebrews 7 clearly abolishes Old Testament based "tithing". If a person gives voluntarily 'as he purposes' and does so in the form of "tithing", that is not Old Testament based tithing; that is not obligatory/mandatory tithing; that is voluntary "tithing" --- and I certainly (and many others) have stated that we have no problem with that.

Thus my statement that Hebrews 7 abolishes tithing remains accurate ---- understood in the sense of the debates concerning "tithing" on this forum.

I understand you perfectly. But you know, some people tend to ignore every other thing you've said and focus on just the present statement you made.
Example: viaro  

viaro:
Hehe. .  another lie from the pit of hell!

Hebrews 7 NOWHERE says that OT tithing has been abolished! NOWHERE. Why? Because tithing was NOT originated from the old testament under the Jews, but predated the whole of Judaism as a covenant to those people!

Second, the New Testament arguments for giving comes from the OT scriptures. There is no argument that anybody can bring here about any form of tithe without a throwback to the OT scriptures, so no one can argue that it is not an OT based thing. People are too driven by shallow thinking that they think all of a sudden, there is a "new" way of giving that was never derived from the OT! On the contrary, the NT discourses for the Christian testimony is based on the declarations of the OT.

We should not be making false and misleading assertions on Hebrews 7 - and it does not surprise me that those who have repeated that lie have never been open for a discussion on that chapter for the assertion they make.

This is old testament tithing:

Heb 7:5
(5)  And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

And we know that in the new Testament, there is no levite who has any commandment to take tithes of the people.
That's where the whole old testament or no old testament tithing arises from. 

I guess it might be a bit misplaced to say the new testament abolished tithing; tithing being: giving of 10% of a resource.
That would mean that any form of giving that amounts to 10% of its source is wrong.

The right thing to say is that: the new testament has removed the must-do clause or mandatory obligation on tithe paying.
As it is, if u give 10% of anything towards God(which could be; taking care of the needs of the needy or towards some church need/requirement) there is no problem; you do no wrong. But note, u are not in a superior state over another who has not or will not do the same as you did.

If you do not give 10% of anything towards God(which could be the same as above^^^) but do meet needs, as they come up every once in a while, in percentages below 10 or above 10 of anything, you do no wrong. You are loved by God all the same.

The thing that the new covenant preaches is love which is expressed through giving of varying kinds determined by the owner of the resource and under no pressure or requirement. It doesn't preach giving in the hope of/because of receiving windfalls.