₦airaland Forum

Tit 1:7-13
(7) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
(8 ) But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
(9) Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
(10) For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
(11) Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
(12) One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
(13) This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

In addition to other things we do in the Christian faith, the above are part of what we must do.
It's only the feeble minded and hero worshippers that fail to see these parts and include them in their life.

rabzy,

Do not bother urself with image123. he is clearly being mischevious in the way he twists the meanings of things u say.
That is common among people who want and feel that their belief about something ;no matter how impossible or irrational, must always be.

The honest truth which Image123 has not yet admitted is that the bible never condemned the taking of alcoholic drinks as has been shown repeatedly with scripture. All the bible shows or declares is that irresponsible use or abuse or excess intake of alcoholic drinks is not encouraged and is regarded as sinful.

no matter how one feels about this issue, that is the honest truth. There is no where in the bible that alcohol intake was condemned.

JeSoul:
I don't agree fully agree here as it would insinuate that God mischieviously manipulates us into doing[i] His [/i] will and I know this is not your position.

I believe that God knows ahead of time what we will choose, what we will think, what we will decide - and then He uses that to accomplish His will on earth. However I do agree that our will is influenced, affected etc by external factors. So while perhaps the term itself "freewill" may be lacking, I still think that when most people consider the term, they simply think of it as the "freedom to make choices".

I wonder why it is always the "mischievious" or "sadistic" terms that are usually ascribed towards God when one tries to make it clear that God influences or affects our wills.

JeSoul:
Very good analysis, however I differ in my understanding of verse 7:

Ok.

In my understanding the King of Assyria did have an intention to attack or why else would it say this in the second part of vs 7 "but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few."?

I think God was saying that it wasn't the will or intention of the king of Assyria to be used as an instrument of punishment against the Isrealites. In the simplicity of the king's thinking- he didn't know his evil intentions were being used by God. So even though God used his evil to a purpose, God still punished the king for his evil.

Let me put it this way:
-The Assyrian King's will was that he was simply going to attack and "cut down the nations"
-God used the Assyrian King's will of attack as a tool to punish the Isrealites.
-God still punished the Assyrian king because his thoughts/actions/will were evil - even though God used them.

So in essence, God did not influence or determine the king's will, He simply used it (as He so often does) to fulfil His own will/purposes. This is my understanding, feel free to point any holes you might see

Verse 7 shows that he had intentions to cut off nations, not "the nations" as u put it. But there was no indication that he had any plans against israel,hence the part that said he didn't mean to or have it in his heart to.

As i said before, God was going to punish him not because of the fact that he had evil intentions against nations but because of the fruit of his heart; that is, the fact that he felt it was all of his own will,power,and intention that he could accomplish all he did:

Isa 10:12-14
(12) Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
(13) For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
(14) And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

Those sure look like pride of the will to me and i know God hates pride.

God was trying to show that he was nothing more than a tool in his hands; whose will was subject to his:

Isa 10:15
(15) Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

Wondering if u get the point I'm making?

I believe God does influence and determines man's will.
Or what do u think is being communicated in the verse below:

Php 2:13
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I'll respond when i get home.

verycute:
I am talking of the punishment for evil doing and not fornication. Thats how you people misinterprete everything and talk down on other people. Its bad. My position is that u see good in other people, so that others will also see it in you. Lets celebrate our people who are making progress in every area of life.

The portion of the bible u used to drive home ur point was dealing with a situation of fornication among the brethren.
What Kunle is doing is not any where close to fornication. Neither is it evil as u insinuate.
he is only pointing out obvious errors and deceit that u can't see becauase u are biased towards the person or persons in question.

This is how i view the verses in question:

(5) O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation

The verse above shows or indicates that Assyria is God's tool for anger. - [a tool is at the mercy and will of its wielder/owner]

(6) I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Verse 6 shows that it is God's will and intention to use assyria against his people.

(7) Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Verse 7 shows that the king of Assyria had no intention,will or plan to attack God's people.

But because of God's will and intention, the will and desire was built up in the heart of the king.

but one will notice that after the king would have fulfilled God's purpose, God was goping to punish him.
One could ask why, since it was God that made him want to do his bidding.

But the interesting thing to note is that God was not punishing him for the act against his people; rather, he was punishing him for the fruit of his heart.
The thought that it was himself that wanted to do as he pleased and the belief that all he did or could do was of his own will,intention and ability.

This is evident in what verses 8 to 14 say.

God then says that it is himself that made the whole thing possible because it was his will and that the king was only a tool in fulfilling that will. Verse 15 says this much.


This much shows that when God has a desire or will, he makes his will come to pass by influencing the wills of his creation.
Without God putting the will or thought into the king of Assyria's heart, he would not have attacked God's people.


Differing views are welcome.

So, now, - how do we relate this so called "free will" to the scenario presented in the verses I quoted; the King of Assyria situation?

JeSoul:
Cool topic. Ttalks, I think this is a matter of definition.

Free will is simply the freedom of human beings make choices. I think this is the unconscious definition most people hold to.

Now whether our choices are affected, influenced, forced or caused by external factors does not eliminate or diminish the fact that we still chose to make those choices/decisions. Hope this makes sense.

Yeah, I know definition actually plays a large role here.

But, the truth is a free will is one that is displayed by making choices/decisions of your own without any form of pressure,or influence, or cause.
The fact is that: no choice or decision made is without influence or cause.
The choice made is dependent on a cause.
Without the cause,the choice made would not have been made.

Leading to the conclusion that there is no choice without a cause/influence; which means there is nothing like a free will.

I think free will should have better been called: Will without influence or Free of influence/cause - will.

Based on these, I think that our wills are determined by the things God sets into action.

There are definite responses to some conditions or situations; there are also diverse responses to certain conditions.

Isa 10:5-17
(5)  O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
(6)  I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
(7)  Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
(8 )  For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?
(9)  Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
(10)  As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
(11)  Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
(12)  Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
(13)  For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
(14)  And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
(15)  Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
(16)  Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
(17)  And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

I felt this topic has to be dealt with in a thread of its own and from the point of view of Christians ,not atheists.

Looking at the above passage in quote, can one truly say that the king of assryia's will and purpose is a free one or was brought about or
caused by God's will with much emphasis placed on verses 5, 6, and 7?

I am of the opinion that the human will is not free; it is only caused or influenced.

Note: Freewill - The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

The human will is definitely affected,influenced or caused by external agencies, and is therefore not free.

there are lots of passages inm the bible that point towards such.

But i want this to be a discussion of opinions on the issue.

verycute:
KunleOshodi you should hate your self b/c u are nothing but evil. U can never see something good in another person. All you speak is hate! hate!! hate!!!. You call every man of God fake prophet and I don't understand where u are coming from. PLEASE EVERY CHRISTIAN HERE SHOULD PRAY THAT KunleOshodi should stop all this hate so that he will not lead other into the same hate. For 1 Corinthians 5:3-5 said
"For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
His time is up.

Which one concern fornication scenario with pointing out errors/obvious deception?

OLAADEGBU:
@ttalk,

A cursory look of what Paul was saying in chapter 8 of the epistle of Romans was about the hope of believers in Christ and their prospects under tribulation.  That there is an impurity,deformity and infirmity that has come upon the creature by the fall of man.  That man is used or abused as instruments of sin.  Sin has been and is, the guilty cause of all the suffering that exists in the creation of God.  It has brought woes of earth; kindled the flames of hell and brought about the sufferings of man.  But there is hope for the saints of God in the new heaven and the new earth when everything will be restored to the new eternal perfect state.

We have today, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, droughts and earthquakes which kills thousands of people each year.  Multitudes endure crippling diseases, endless suffering and unspeakable pain.  Many non-Christians credit a heartless mother nature for giving us all this grief. Others, such as yourself blame God.

However, if God is responsible for all this heartache, that presents an interesting dilemma.  If God is an all-loving Father figure, as we are told, we seem to have three choices: 1) God is a tyrant, who gets His kicks from seeing kids die of Leukaemia; 2) God blew it when He made everything (that He is creative but incompetent); 3) Something between God and man is radically wrong.  These are our choices.  If you take time to consider the evidence you are most likely to lean toward option 3 except you have an ulterior motive.  Every neutral person reading this will admit that something between man and God is radically wrong, and the Bible tells us what it is.

There is a war going on.  We are told that mankind is an enemy of God in his mind through wicked works (Colossians 1:21).  That's not too hard to see.  Man is continually committing violent acts such as murder and rape, lying, stealing, etc., as the daily news confirms.  Man uses God's name as a curse word, while Mother Nature gets the glory for God's creation, unless there's a horrible disaster, then man calls that an "act of God."

The current War going on between me and your church members (petres 007, ttalk, Kunleoshob, chukwudi, Jagoon, TV01 etc) is due to the acronym of WAR which means W[/b]e [b]A[/b]re [b]R[/b]ight.  This war is becaue we have the convictions that we are in the right.  However, a quick look at God's Law shows us who is right and who is wrong.  We, not God, are the guilty party.  If we want His blessings on our lives, we must make peace with Him, and that is possible only though faith in Jesus Christ.

Plain and harsh realities:

Isa 29:6
(6)  Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with [b]earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.


Mat 28:2
(2)  And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Exo 15:8
(  And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea. - [This does look like a tsunami].

These are stuff which God caused or did in the past.Why is it so strange that those happening today should have his hand in them?

Amo 3:6
(6)  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

I don't bother or worry about why all these things happen because :

Eph 1:11
(11)  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 8:28
(28)  And we know that he works all things together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

Oh, the freedom and peace that comes from knowing that everything which happens is all according to God's will and purpose, and together for the good of those that love him.

The sooner we realize that God is at the helm of every affair;everything that takes place in this life, the better it is for us to understand him and his purpose.

Col 1:16-17
(16)  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17)  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

The verse above is more than enough to say that all things; whether good or bad, nice or evil, all things that exist(which includes the devil) were created by God and for him(for his purpose) and all things by him consist(Originate (in),Have its essential character; be comprised or contained in; be embodied in, Be composed of).

The devil at work was created by God;it is by him and for him(that is; for his purpose).

God's word tells us so and it stands no matter how uncomfortable it might make man feel or think about it.
Rather than wonder at how unimaginable it is,we should try to determine the purpose for it.

Eph 1:11
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 11:34-36
(34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
(35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
(36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

lightwalk:
@Ttalks:
First I must commend you for accepting your mistake. However, it seems your knowledge of the devil is very limited.
So I will give ye what thoust requires and let ye speak for thine own

Er, - what mistake did i accept? 

Isaiah 14:12 goes in this way 'How You are fallen form heaven. O Lucifer(Lucifer also means day star), son of the morning!
How You are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!'
Is 14:13: For you have said on your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt omy throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest side of the norht;
Is:14:14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'

Did you read the whole chapter?
if you did, u'll find out that the above verses were not in reference to the devil but to the king of babylon.
The clincher is in verse 16:

Isa 14:16
(16)  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

We know that the devil is a spirit being and not a man.But this passage was referring to a man.
The truth is, the verses u quoted along with some before and after them are/were a chant/song/proverb against the king of Babylon and never satan.

And besides, Lucifer is never the name of the devil;it is a misplaced word in the king james bible.It is a latin word depicting a star;venus in particular.
the term son of the morning was a qualifier used on the king of babylon because of his status and position in terms of the nations and the world. he was a powerful king.

Now as for the significance of stars,
Revelations:9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Stars singify the angels

Re:12:1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Re:12:2: Then being with child she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth
Re:12:3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Re:12:4: His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
Re:12:7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angelsfought,
Re:12:8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Re:12:9: So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devila and Satan, who decieves the whole world was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
Re:12:10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for [bold]the accuser of our brethren[/bold] is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Re:12:12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. [bold]Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea![/bold] for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea:
Does this mean that there are other inhabiters of other stars and that earth is not special but doomed
Does this mean that there are beings of the sea like us in the sight of God (maybe in another realm)?
Or does it mean woe to all creation of the earth and the sea, thus insinuating that the devil has brought evil amongst animals and erasing the belief that animals are not important like us?

The theory u are building from this verses(especially chapter 12) does not support your claim that the devil was initially an angel of God.
This is because -
- the war here takes place when mankind is already in existence and not before as your 'devil - angel' theory suggests.
-if mankind was already in existence,then the devil could never have been that supposed angel because mankind started from adam and the devil was already the devil when he met with Adam/eve.

Verse 10 makes it very clear that this was takes place as mankind is in existence; because there is no way that the devil could have been accusing brethren before God day and night if there was no mankind.
that even shows that he has been his devil self ever since based on the fact that he was already the accuser of the brethren before this war.
so this war u are talking about or trying to present is not having to do with the supposed fall of the devil from his angelic position but a war which probably happened later long after mankind has already been on earth or is still a futuristic event yet to happen.

An example of the devil performing his accuser of the brethren activities is in Job 1:6-12.

Anyway. If you read this well you will see the point of my question.
If the Devil can do such harm and you say God created him,
You should remember that God is the Father of all he created
So the same God that is all good,
and all powerful,
and all knowing,
and all merciful,

created Evil
and left it to damage his creation starting from the war in heaven
And his angels were able to defeat a power that drew a third of the stars with its tail
The angels rejoiced that this power has been chased down from the heaven (This clearly shows that he was being tolerated before)
and that God could not do anything about it although his all pwerful
and although He was all merciful, He will never forgive the devil who is bound to hades

If God is all knowing does that mean that when before you were born He knew whether you are going to heaven or hell?
If you say so, then you see why you are making the person who says
'A God that plays prank on his people'
A God watching His people wrath in pain and anger of the devil
This same God created the evil knowingly to punish man?

Now God can do everything
The only reason that man could have disobeyed was that man was not perfect
So it was God that created an imperfect creation
And knew he was going to disobey him
and created the evil to drive war against Himself
and then His own creation?
So those who say we have God to blame in all are then right?
Because He is then the behind-perpetrator of all that happen
Be careful in your accusations of God
because it will may be blasmpehmy when You say God created evil
There was nowhere it was written in the Bible either

The serpent is just an animal that was created by God
It was the wisest animal
So the devil used it for his purpose of deceit
And after that the serpent was punished (for contaminating man), so don't make childish inferencs using that

Peace

I don't need to say much about these above cos I know your driving force is your understanding of some things.

But I'll respond to the last parts:

You say there is no where it was written that God created evil. But I gave a verse earlier showing where God said he creates evil:

Isa 45:7
(7)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The devil has always been refered to as the serpent,so your claim saying that he just entered or used a serpent at the beginning is at most,funny.

Rev 12:9
(9)  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Isa 27:1
(1)  In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

The serpent above is in reference to the devil and not the literal sea monster.

As i said before, God created the devil; he didn't just happen,nor was he an angel of God before.

Job 26:13
(13)  By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Isa 54:16
(16)  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

The verse immediately above says a lot.The devil is the waster and he was created to destroy.

A lot might not be clear to you now, but they definitely will be soon.

Here is a letter to John Hagee; critiquing his teaching on hell:

“THE SEVEN WONDERS OF HELL”

A Sermon by: John Hagee

A Critique by: L. Ray Smith

Dear Mr. Hagee

While browsing the channels, I happened onto your Jerusalem broadcast on TBN. Shortly thereafter I heard your sermon on "Hell." In Jerusalem you said God inspired His Word in the Greek language because, "Greek is the most exact language on the face of the earth!" Therein lies the difficulty with your sermons.

God's Word does not contradict. It makes sense in the words God chose. Christ warns against "adding to" or "taking away from" this Word (Rev. 22:18-19). When teaching God's Word we are to rightly divide (or cut) His Word (II Tim. 2:15-18). We are to " ,  distinguish the things that differ" (Phil. 1:10). We are to have a pattern of sound words (II Tim. 1:13-14). In addition to these we are to shun the traditions of men (Col. 2:8 ) and the wisdom of this world (I Cor. 1:20 & 3:19). It is a rare teacher who actually does these things.

What prompted this letter was your statement that: "Greek is the most exact language on the face of the earth," followed by the statement that Christ is going to reign "for ever and for ever and for ever ,  " In the English, this statement is contradictory and redundant, and in the Greek it has no equivalent. If "for ever" means "always" or "eternity," what pray does "and for ever" mean? Is that something like whiter than white? It is not I who find fault with that statement, but God.

Your statement is both untrue and unscriptural. If your statement that Christ will reign "for ever and for ever and for ever ,  " were confined to Christ's reigning only, it would not be as harmful as when applied to other false doctrines that are taught to last "for ever and for ever and for ever." Specifically, I make reference to your teaching on "hell" (Gk. hades-the unseen or imperceptible), which you teach is a place of eternal torment.

Source: Letter to John Hagee

KunleOshob:
This should make intersting reading on the subject.



source: http://www.bibleufo.com/hell.htm

Yeah, the stuff u quoted is quite similar to the stuff I've been reading.

Anybody else with similar ideas or theories?

;d ;d ;d ;d ;d

Horus:
The concept of hell is something that was created in the hearts and minds of the authors of your Bible and Koran. Before you were informed of what and where hell was, it never crossed your mind to even think about it. So, within the pages of your scriptures hell was born. Just as a God could not exist without the devil, heaven could not exist if there wasn’t a hell. It is something that was fabricated so that they could capitalize off of your fear.

I know some people don't believe in the bible and what it has in it.
But this thread is based on the belief that the bible and its contents are true, so replies should be made in that regard.

Nimshi:
Why don't you share your own opinion, first?

.

Normally, I hold the general and most popular conception about it.
That is: The everlasting/eternal stuff.

But i also know that hell in the bible wasn't always this place of punishment; it also depicted the grave(Sheol - Hebrew, Hades - Greek).

I'm not really concerned about the ones that refer to the grave, but rather, the one that refers to the place of "eternal punishment"; Gehenna.

i've been doing some reading and from what i've been seeing, it looks like the whole concept on gehenna might not actually be as it is popularly percieved.

it is generally referred to as a place of everlasting punishment, but unpopularly, it is know as a place of chastisement for a period of time or an age for the purpose of correcting and setting aright.

That position(the unpopular one) is quite strange;based on what the popular english translations of the bible pass across.

But judging from what the original manuscripts say, it probably is worth looking into.

that's why i need contributions from people.

Hello People.

This kind of looks like a strange topic, but i just want to hear different views about the hell concept as passed across by the bible.

The most popular and well known conception about hell is : a place of eternal/everlasting punishment for those who do not make it in Christ or those who never believed in Christ.

Is this really the case; as in the eternal or everlasting part?

I would like to hear/read what people feel about this.

Please note: The original manuscripts(hebrew and greek)interpretations of the bible on this issue are an important aspect for this discussion(if any would join in - ).
Also, I think history too should play an important part in this.

lightwalk:
Please what kind of Bible are you using. Be very careful. Yes God destroyed sodom. But let's take your biblical mentality; where in the Bible is it written that God created the devil?

Gen 3:1
(1) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Aside from the fact that the above shows that the serpent(devil) was part of God's creation, the devil is the personification of all evil;the source of all evil.
So when God says he creates evil, it's simple to deduce that his product of evil(the devil) is the one unleashing this evil.
Or do u assume that the devil just happened on its own?
Everything that is was created by God.

Of course you don't know where, after all is not disobedience if someone choses not to do what he is supposed to do. It's simply pride.

please state where this "disobedience" of the devil took place.

All the devil has been doing?
I reallly thought this devil of a thing used to be a powerful and special angel so close to God before. I wonder whether it is that this angel is fighting against God, or whether it is that God has refused to forgive this angel in His infinte mercy. Or whether this angel is so confident and unrepentant. Maybe you should tell me more

Now, that's where the confusion comes from; the assumption that the devil was an angel of God before who probably disobeyed him.
Well,sorry. That was never the case.
The devil has been evil from inception.

Joh 8:44
(44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Someone who is declared to have been a murderer from the very beginning could not have been a loving and beautiful angel at the same time.

What is this?
What is what??

Don't mind me. i was trying to adopt the style of one of my favorite posters; noetic(1,2,3, . . . .15).

lightwalk:
Are you trying to tell me that God knowingly brought evil into this world?
God created something he knew would fight and destroy his creations?
That God created something that was evil?
That God even in all his power could not immediately destroy the devil when he disobeyed?
Think

Yes, God knowingly brought evil into this world.
All to the working of his purpose.

Isa 45:7
(7)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Where is it recorded in the bible that the devil disobeyed God?

All the devil has been doing is what he was created for.

lightwalk:
@ttalk. Try to think critically. There's no truth in delusions except the truth that they are delusions. Come out of your shell, think and stand firm

What is this? 

- Still posting from my phone -

Gamine,

Your last post finally has shown what is supposed to be.
Because initially ur stance seemed to indicate that because of Christ's sacrifice, we wouldn't even need to ask for forgiveness for sins which crop up.
This is how I view the seeking forgiveness part:

When we ask for forgiveness, it shows that we have remorse for what we did. And that indicates that we care about what God thinks and says about those wrong things;means we love God.
Our seeking forgiveness doesn't do the saving or atoning;rather,it makes the position and state of our heart clear to God.
It makes God to determine our sincerity in the faith;as in whether we truly cherish the sacrifice of Christ and really love him.

On the other hand,a person who doesn't seek forgiveness only shows the state of his heart.He despises the sacrifice of Christ as he keeps on sinning without saying he is sorry and trying to change. I would say that such a person's manner says a lot about what he thinks of God and the sacrifice of Christ,and it sure ain't going to be in his favor cos the ruling could be:he was never in the faith.

Viaro,
The three stages u highlighted:
-the initial saving at faith in Christ.
-the being saved during the Christian walk.
-the final stage;being glorified at the resurrection.

They were all indicated in the totality of my posts.
For example,my very first post on the thread showed the first and last stages.Then most of my other post were bordering on the middle stage.

The point I'm driving at is that the complete salvation is the totality of the three stages.One can't lay claim on the total package when the three stages aren't completed.

Here's how I see the three stages:
- the first stage of being declared saved is being saved from the condemnation brought about by the law of Moses;being justified by faith - Acts 13:39, Romans 3:25,etc.

- the second stage;the constantly being saved stage.This has to do with our Christian walk;living life according to Christ's provisions in the new covenant.Remember living this life is by the grace provided by Christ's sacrifice and not by our effort,so there shouldn't be any talk of us doing the saving by our effort.Living for Christ is by his grace alone.
Philipians 2:12-13 (emphasis on 13).

- The final stage.This has to do with Christ's return; the resurrection and glorification of those dead in Christ and the glorification of those in Christ still alive.
1 Peter 1(emphasis on verses 5,9,and 13).

Note: I'm posting from my phone and therefore, limited.

viaro:
May I also ask a few questions about losing one's salvation:

* at what point does one lose his or her salvation?

* is it possible for one to be saved again after having lost their salvation?

* if one can be saved again after losing salvation, what is the process involved?

Those for now. Thanks.

if u check some of my posts on this thread, u'll notice that I tried to maintain that salvation/being saved is not something that has been achieved yet.
The journey to achieving it only begins with having faith in Christ.
So, the issue of losing one's salvation can't really be said to be since we do not have it yet.

we can only lose our way towards achieving it.

I say this in the context or understanding that Salvation is the end of our faith;the goal of our faith which is achieved when Christ comes and we are glorified.

viaro:
What about the question of one who "rejects" the faith by his lifestyle?

For me, they didn't have the faith in the first place. How?

Let's remind ourselves that some who live contrary to the Gospel of Christ are variously described in Scripture:

* they are called 'false brethren' (Galatians 2:4)

* sometimes described as 'false prophets' (2 Peter 2:1-2)

* certain men who creep in unwares (Jude v. 4)

Jude is especially bold to state that such men live a lascivious lifestyle - and that is how they "deny the Lord and Saviour". Yes, they still say Christian things, love religious things, etc - but they have not truly received the saving faith of Christ.

Of course, I don't have all the answers, but just trying to help outline things according to the questions that arise.

Which shows the point that i have tried to pass one way or another that claiming to believe in Christ/have faith in Christ alone is not a guarantee for salvation or a proof of salvation.
Your lifestyle or ur works would help determine the authenticity of such a faith.
That is what James 2:17-26 is saying.

Gamine:
I have replied this before.
i dont think the scripture implies a certain time to acknowledge sin
where do you get that??

Looking at who John was addressing would tell u of the time when this acknowledgement of sins takes place.
It is within the Christian life;within the life after having faith in Christ.
John was addressing believers, people who had earlier had faith in Christ; Christians, not people who were yet to be Christians.

Gamine:
What do you mean by 'rejected the faith by his lifestyle'
If he didnt denounce Christ from his heart <once gain God sees the heart>
who are you to judge his lifestyle, especially when we all received the gift equally and undeservedly

One rejects the faith by his lifestyle; another shows proof of his faith by his lifestyle.
James 2:17-16 deals with this.

Remember, in 1 Timothy 5:8; it was what the person did/does; the action/the work that brought about the pronouncement of "denied the faith and is worse than an infidel".

The term "by their fruits u shall know them" deals with this.

Your works/lifestyle prove ur faith; whether u do have it or you don't.
Note: That's all works do; prove/show one's faith and not give one salvation.

Gamine:
Are you telling me, you have no sin??

You are 100% sure, nothing you have done has displeased God in some form??

Where did u get such an idea about me?

I'm only asking you: "When do we do the acknowledgement of sin,according to that passage?"

Gamine:
This is John 1:7-10

what you posted IS NOT what it communicates
i didnt see anything about past, present and future sin.

We are in 'sin'

If we say we havent sinned, we make Him a liar and Jesus is not in us.
So if we acknowledge we have sin, Jesus is true and stands in place of us.

Simple.

When do we do the highlighted above, Gamine?

Gamine:
There is no working out of salvation, once you believe in Jesus, and truely repent. .
you are saved. When you die, you wont be damned. sin will always take its toll on us
thats why we dont live very long on earth here anyway. but the hope is eternal life afterall.

Php 2:12
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Those that reject Christ as their Savior and refuse to believe in Him have no hope of salvation.
They can only look forward to facing the wrath of God that they have stored up for the coming day of judgment
There is no other propitiation or sacrifice that can be made for their sins.

Dear Gamine, it is not only those who reject Christ as their savior and refuse to believe in him that have no hope of salvation.
It also includes those who believed in him and later by their actions and way of life reject him(that is living a life of sin which completely rejects Christ's sacrifice).That is what Hebrews 10:26 - 27 is saying.
The "we" in verse 26 was referring to believers not unbelievers.

So, the conclusion is that :
It is possible for a person to believe in Christ but later get damned because he later rejected the faith by his lifestyle.

Act 13:39
(39)  And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:23-25
(23)  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(24)  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(25)  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

This is the summary of all i am saying about faith in Christ:

The sacrifice of Christ has taken care of the sins of the past;those inherited through Adam,those which the law could not justify us from;those we were born with and those we committed before having faith in Christ.
Now, the blood of the sacrifice which did this is forever available and it is this which we apply to take care of the sins that still pop up in our Christian faith every now and then.
we do this by confessing and forsaking/repenting from the sins.
That is what 1 John 1:7-10 communicates.

Zikkyy:
I just need to clarify something here, say . . . a sick unbeliever on his death bed. If he believes and accept christ at this point, does he need to perform any other act/work after this to be saved? considering this might be his last act.

ttalks please i need your views here as well. Thanks

This is the way I view it:

It depends on the heart of the person. God looks at the heart.

If at the time of believing the person is truly sincere; has been truly convicted by the gospel, that is all that is necessary for him to be accepted since he has no more life to prove or profess his faith.

A living person still has life and would need to go through a lot to try his faith and to show his sincerity of purpose so his case is different from the scenario of the sick person.

Gamine:
This is what i understand so far,

Saved: The point at which you acceptance Jesus, When you become 'Born Again'
Before that point, you lived without the ''blood' on your wall, <egypt/passover/angel of death>
how do you know?, i believe everyone makes a conscious decision to either accept Jesus or not.

The highlighted above isn't exactly right. one isn't "saved" at that point of accepting Jesus; rather one begins the journey towards being saved.
Several verses in the bible attest to that fact(Some I've posted earlier in the thread).
Accepting Jesus brings about a change in a person's life but not the final change which is referred to as being "saved".
Being saved is a future event put into motion by our acceptance of/belief in Christ

No, nobody earns 'grace'
There is no work to be done to keep grace,
it has nothing to do with anybody.

True, the grace of God has been made available through our acceptance of Christ, not by our works. But what we do within that Grace actually shows/proves our true possession of the grace. What we do are products of the grace,not originators of the grace.
it is this grace that keeps us till the end;when we are eventually truly "saved".

Losing it? now that is the question,
thats where the discussion here lies mostly,

As regards losing it, it only makes sense that since a thing has not been fully achieved, it is possible to lose it or not achieve it.

This is what the bible says about the saving process:


Rom 8:30
(30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It is when the "glorified" part takes place(cos we know we ain't glorified yet) that we can say we are truly and completely "saved".