₦airaland Forum

Are you okay man?

Mod pls reopen that thread i don't see anything wrong.

@JomoGbomo.
Believe me this is personal.
This charade has gone on for too long and people are ignoring this in the name of "touch not my anointed".
The man has become so bold and brazen in recent years that he thinks nobody can question him. . . .imagine him charging N1O to N20 each time you wanna use toilets and bathrooms at the camp ground. I mean for hells' sake, who taxes the poor man when he wants to take a bloody shite?!?
[quote author=must_a_far link=topic=308068.msg4336492#msg4336492 date=1250023881]what a dilema. you attend a church function. you have only N20 in ur pocket. u r hungry, u need to use the bathroom cos u have an upset stomach, yet you also want to donate when the offering basket passes by.[/quote]Sadly this is the real life experience of many RCCG members,  I weep for my country!

Prizm:
I’ll make this brief also. Here are my observations:

1)You seem to be confusing the Cosmological Argument with the Design or Fine-tuning Argument. They are different lines of arguments. Like I suggested earlier, drop this hasty and lazy intellectual approach to this discussion, go and familiarize yourself with what these arguments really are.

O.K

2)If you had done so, you would not have come out to speculate that the explanation for the origin of the universe is some alien supercomputer. The concept “alien” (by which we mean [b]possible physical beings [/b]in the planets of this or distant galaxies) and

Oh i see, you're one of the arrogant types who feels is your perogative to define terms as you see fit.
Who gave you the impression the aliens are physical?
They could perhaps be on another frequency or plane ivisible to our eyes, can't they?

“supercomputer” (by which we mean a [b]powerful physical/material, spatially defined, and temporal computational device) [/b]are subsets of the universe. They are contingent entities and not necessary entities.

Again you conviniently make this flawed and narrow minded assertion because it suits your position.
The term "supercomputer" here is used as a concept and does not necessarily mean the physical, materialistic, spatialy defined,temporal computation device like we have here on earth.
Its just the same way you use the term God to describe the concept of a starting force.

Surely you don't expect me to invent an out of this world lingo to pass across this concept

3)How you choose to define atheism is your own problem and no sensible person is going to engage someone who insists on being shown an empirically provable God. If such an empirically provable thing exists, it will not qualify as God.

God appearing physically like he did to the isrealites would be empirical enough won't it?

To make this simpler for you to understand, the God concept is independent of the name God—once the concept satisfies the attributes of God, it shouldn’t matter if you choose to call it “The Big Primordial Shell”, “7X3O1R”, “Cosmic Singularity” or any other qualifiers that appeal to you.

Just as chris said, That this entity might exist

doesn't mean you ascribe to it attributes of forgiving sins, answering prayers, jealous etc- That is the concept of god as potrayed by religion and that is what i disbelieve.

4)You have not shown us, by way of logical proof or arguments, why we should agree with you that “Jehovah” or “Yahweh” does not exist. I may or may not agree with you when you present your case but don’t expect anyone to be convinced by your arbitrary decree to that effect. Show us how you have managed to prove, without reasonable doubt, that Jehovah does not exist.

I come to wonder how the christian god concept came into existence if not by arbitrary decree of deluded men.

Prizm:
I’ll make this brief also. Here are my observations:

1)You seem to be confusing the Cosmological Argument with the Design or Fine-tuning Argument. They are different lines of arguments. Like I suggested earlier, drop this hasty and lazy intellectual approach to this discussion, go and familiarize yourself with what these arguments really are.

O.K

2)If you had done so, you would not have come out to speculate that the explanation for the origin of the universe is some alien supercomputer. The concept “alien” (by which we mean [b]possible physical beings [/b]in the planets of this or distant galaxies) and

Oh i see, you're one of the arrogant types who feels is your perogative to define terms as you see fit.
Who gave you the impression the aliens are physical?
They could perhaps be on another frequency or plane ivisible to our eyes, can't they?

“supercomputer” (by which we mean a [b]powerful physical/material, spatially defined, and temporal computational device) [/b]are subsets of the universe. They are contingent entities and not necessary entities.

Again you conviniently make this flawed and narrow minded assertion because it suits your position.
The term "supercomputer" here is used as a concept and does not necessarily mean the physical, materialistic, spatialy defined,temporal computation device like we have here on earth.
Its just the same way you use the term God to describe the concept of a starting force.

Surely you don't expect me to invent an out of this world lingo to pass across this concept

3)How you choose to define atheism is your own problem and no sensible person is going to engage someone who insists on being shown an empirically provable God. If such an empirically provable thing exists, it will not qualify as God.

God appearing physically like he did to the isrealites would be empirical enough won't it?

To make this simpler for you to understand, the God concept is independent of the name God—once the concept satisfies the attributes of God, it shouldn’t matter if you choose to call it “The Big Primordial Shell”, “7X3O1R”, “Cosmic Singularity” or any other qualifiers that appeal to you.

Just as chris said, That this entity might exist

doesn't mean you ascribe to it attributes of forgiving sins, answering prayers, jealous etc- That is the concept of god as potrayed by religion and that is what i disbelieve.

4)You have not shown us, by way of logical proof or arguments, why we should agree with you that “Jehovah” or “Yahweh” does not exist. I may or may not agree with you when you present your case but don’t expect anyone to be convinced by your arbitrary decree to that effect. Show us how you have managed to prove, without reasonable doubt, that Jehovah does not exist.

I come to wonder how the christian god concept came into existence if not by arbitrary decree of deluded men.

Prizm:
I’ll make this brief also. Here are my observations:

1)You seem to be confusing the Cosmological Argument with the Design or Fine-tuning Argument. They are different lines of arguments. Like I suggested earlier, drop this hasty and lazy intellectual approach to this discussion, go and familiarize yourself with what these arguments really are.

O.K

2)If you had done so, you would not have come out to speculate that the explanation for the origin of the universe is some alien supercomputer. The concept “alien” (by which we mean [b]possible physical beings [/b]in the planets of this or distant galaxies) and

Oh i see, you're one of the arrogant types who feels is your perogative to define terms as you see fit.
Who gave you the impression the aliens are physical?
They could perhaps be on another frequency or plane ivisible to our eyes, can't they?

“supercomputer” (by which we mean a [b]powerful physical/material, spatially defined, and temporal computational device) [/b]are subsets of the universe. They are contingent entities and not necessary entities.

Again you conviniently make this flawed and narrow minded assertion because it suits your position.
The term "supercomputer" here is used as a concept and does not necessarily mean the physical, materialistic, spatialy defined,temporal computation device like we have here on earth.
Its just the same way you use the term God to describe the concept of a starting force.

Surely you don't expect me to invent an out of this world lingo to pass across this concept

3)How you choose to define atheism is your own problem and no sensible person is going to engage someone who insists on being shown an empirically provable God. If such an empirically provable thing exists, it will not qualify as God.

God appearing physically like he did to the isrealites would be empirical enough won't it?

To make this simpler for you to understand, the God concept is independent of the name God—once the concept satisfies the attributes of God, it shouldn’t matter if you choose to call it “The Big Primordial Shell”, “7X3O1R”, “Cosmic Singularity” or any other qualifiers that appeal to you.

Just as chris said, That this entity might exist

doesn't mean you ascribe to it attributes of forgiving sins, answering prayers, jealous etc- That is the concept of god as potrayed by religion and that is what i disbelieve.

4)You have not shown us, by way of logical proof or arguments, why we should agree with you that “Jehovah” or “Yahweh” does not exist. I may or may not agree with you when you present your case but don’t expect anyone to be convinced by your arbitrary decree to that effect. Show us how you have managed to prove, without reasonable doubt, that Jehovah does not exist.

I come to wonder how the christian god concept came into existence if not by arbitrary decree of deluded men.

Prizm:
If you don’t know what God is, then I wonder what you are arguing for or against. First of all, go and familiarize yourself with the topic under discussion (God’s existence or nonexistence), familiarize yourself with the intelligent and deeply thought-out arguments for or against the topic and then make up your mind as to which one is the more plausible. I don’t have the time nor inclination to help you with that search for I’ll be encouraging some sort of intellectual laziness.

Now, I realize that what I have said so far may not sit well with you precisely because you probably already have some idea of what God is or is held up by theists to be. If you were truly and completely nescient of the idea then this last statement “All the so-called philosophical arguments you have given so far are also equally valid for Sussicorn.  So should we believe in Sussicorn?” sticks out like a very sore thumb.

That statement shows me the mindset of some atheist who has chosen to trivialize the discussion. You’ll find out rapidly enough that I don’t bother myself replying any and every comment. So you might as well claim that the philosophical argument for God applies to “invisible pink unicorns”, “Celestial teapots” or “the flying spaghetti monster”. That is your own cup of tea. That is the sort of rabid militant New atheism that is anchored on silly ridicule and a dearth of critical reasoning which reminds one forcefully of rabid militant theism they supposedly reject. Whatever happened to the deep thinking atheist philosophers of old like Nietzsche, Karl Marx, Bertrand Russel etc? The fallacious sort of appeal to mockery or ridicule which passes for the New Atheist arguments are simply underwhelming.

Are you kidding me?
More plausible?
You must be joking if you sincerely expect a sane man like me to believe and put my faith in god based on ARGUMENTS or Theories that don't even prove the entity but just suggest that it might exist. Dude i say it again, i need EVIDENCE and not ARGUEMENTS.
I just wonder in the old days when men were archaic and primitive god appeared to men himself directing battles, speaking to people publicly, answering by fire and so on. Now tell me Mr primzy are these not undeniable evidence?. But as man progressed and became more rational we now resort to mere unsubstantiated philosophical arguments that are "more plausible"- what a laugh!

In this age of science and technology archaic philosophic arguments like these are useless.
Science can investigate and try to recreate these theories. Check the hydriad collider in europe trying to investigate the big bang.

Rich Diddy:
@Tudor: I will ask that u guard ur utterances. Such abusive words on the man are out of line. If you do not believe in what the man is doing hold unto it but u do not have to lash out the way u r. If the man is not true, every seed produces after its kind and you would see the result in no time.

When nigerians insult criminals i wonder if you open your mouth to tell them to guard their tongue.

As for the gentleman of the press who put out the story, he probably needed to score some points, gain some popularity. Not sure the words he used were the same words he heard while at the convention. Well how else do u expect a soft sell like PM news to make profit. I reserve further comments.

Is the story not true?
Did daddy g.o not announce the millionaires club at the convention?
I wonder why all the beef.

@Naija4life.
I know you're a christian. . .from your posts it aint that hard to figure out.

GBAM! GBAM!! GBAM!!! GBAM GBAM!!! GBAM!! [/b]GBAM!!!

RichyBlacK:
Total rubbish!

These so-called "new-generation" churches are frauds! Uselessness of the highest order!

[b]What are they going to use all the money for? Buy another jet for their CEO?

When the "old-generation" churches like Baptists, Anglicans, Catholics and Presbyterian helped societies in many ways, especially building schools and hospitals in many parts of rural Nigeria, these fraudulent churches just want to squeeze their members dry by telling them to pay tithes, which only go to enrich their board of directors.

These churches are part of the problem facing Nigeria! From exploiting the high illiteracy rates in Nigeria by telling dirt-poor and illiterate parents to pay huge sums of money to liberate their children from witchcraft to encouraging the thousands of politicians that worship with them to keep stealing money from the treasury to enrich the church coffers.

RCCG is probably the worst culprit! We all know that thousands of politicians and so-called "businessmen" attend these churches. However, no pastor in RCCG has the courage to look into the eyes of these kleptomaniacs and tell them to their ugly faces that their actions are ruining the nation; that their penchant to steal government funds and engage in illegal "deals" will never help the country. They will never do that because they're afraid that the millions and billions they get as "tithes" and "offerings" will dry out should they call the thieves by their names.

Many of the members of these churches are very poor and in very bad states of health. Is their a charity arm of any of these churches? No! They're simply for-profit businesses, out to make money and increase the wealth of their board members.

That so many Nigerians are being fooled by these churches is a testimony to widespread illiteracy and dangerous servitude, that dulls the mind and substitutes real discussions/actions/concerns of the ills of the Nigerian society with empty talks of "salvation"!

If it were I who said this, blacksta and mowire would say its because i hate jesus.
But this is coming from a born again christian!

The sad part is adeboye probably attended the free mission schools set up in the old days by the missionaries but the greedy old Arrow sets up his own "mission" school that even the average nigerian can't afford.

The 62 year old kleptomaniac must have received cheap if not free treatment from the hospitals and clinics set up by missionaries in the old days. Instead of him to show some gratitude and do same he prefers to pack his members into a camp ground and ask them to pray for miracle healing at the same time telling them to drop thanksgiving offerings in anticipation for the miracle to come.

If the catholics and early missionaries didn't set up their free clinics, daddy crook would probably be dead long ago and we wouldn't have to be worrying about a scum like him today.

@Naija4life.
The guy is just kidding. . . .he enjoys picking on we victimized atheists. . .

Witi:
May Ogun the god of Iron slaughter everyone of you insulting the Man of God.

I claim it in jesus name! Amen.

Witi:
May Ogun the god of Iron slaughter everyone of you insulting the Man of God.

I claim it in jesus name! Amen.

@BluDiva
Don't we have an option of recalling the loaned out youngies in january?

How many times do we have to tell you this. . . .ATHEISM isn't a RELIGION . .You sure you don't need psych evaluation yourself?

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=307136.msg4334569#msg4334569 date=1250003010]Hi Tudor. If you accept that you do not know as your above post seems to suggest. Is it not reasonable to also say that you do not know whether God exists or not? Best wishes.[/quote]Hello.
It depends on what you call as "god".
If you're referring to the christian god then hell, i'm damn sure he doesn't exist.

blacksta:
I am not member of RCCG so this my personal opioion

Let it go  - Let God himself Judge. - Any true Christian will not fall for any church gimmicks

Thats the same thing they were saying about Rev. King till the lunatic killed a church member.
Even in prison some members still go to worship with him. . .

off topic

I never knew atheists knew the content of a bible .

is the bible not a story book like all others?

ChiefS:
TUDOR,
Stop insulting the man of God.You are not forced to give.Lest you be smitten with a plague.

Am i supposed to be trembling with fear or what?

Mowire:
Sorry. Did you say you read the post? How come you did not see that the LESS PRIVILEDGED IN THEIR MIDST are not expected to be members of the club? Guess you need to be far more patient and reflect a little bit more before reaching some conclusion that may not Glorify the Lord.

May be for the sake of the brethren who are unneccessarily outraged (because of the caption), one is tempted to point out that it is more sensible to to have the very rich in the church bear a substantial portion of the development cost of the church than to Tax the whole church, of which the "less Priviledged" are in the majority, endlessly.

Oh so now you agree that the less privileged are in the majority. . .please do tell me, what is daddy 419 doing for them?
He bought a N3bn luxury jet inaddition to building a N7bn church auditorium yet you still have the effontry and pride to declare that the less privileged are in the majority.
How many of them can afford his mega expensive schools even they are persuaded to buy his crappy books yet some can't even feed?

The kind of arrangement reported in the post has always been in the RCCG (in the time of Pst Adeboye as GO at least). There has always been the Convenant Partners project that is in various arms and involved different areas of the church's life: Convenant partners in prayer is one of them, in which your money does not matter.

So he and pastor chris are in the same business of having "covenant partners" right?
Show me where in the bible it says clearly that you should have "covenant partners"??
These dolts would invent several wierd covenants not even mentioned in the bible. Damn!

As for looters being large contributors to the church through this sort of arrangement:

1) I feel sorry for those who are too "POOR" to see that you can be a multi-millionaire so comfortable as to be capable of doling out tens of million of any denomination regularly without being a Treasury Looter, or any criminal of any sort. (I'm yet to hear of which treasury people like Bill Gates looted, and I'm yet to see any looter as rich as him)

I'm yet to see any "covenant partner " or tithe and offering payer as rich as him.

Even daddy 419 with all his crimes wouldn't smell him.

2) This good man has always shared testimonies of refusing money/donations from questionable sources. claims without rebuttals.

Yet OBJ dropped offerings in the basket each time he visited the camp ground, OBJ even gave him a special import waiver yet we didn't see daddy crook reject it.
Daddy will go to birthday parties for OBJ to go and eat free rice- what a greedy man!

^{See how this thread is growing? After,  they will say the man is not a Legend}

He's a legend in his own right, one of the greatest crooks this country has ever seen.

chukwudi44:
@Tudor

How on earth do you think the world and it's living organisms came into existence?

Can't you read?
I said i don't know. I wasn't alive at the begining for petes sake!

These things just didn't exist ,something brought them into existence,as a scientist

how can you explain this mysteries.

You say this with such certainty. . .how do you know the earth didn't just come into existence?


And oh, i'm not a scientist neither am i a fortune teller so i can't explain any mystery to you.

A_K_O
I fail to understand why this thread was locked. Are a member of RCCG?

You also provided a link to the topic in politcs section but i ask; is this topic a political or a religious one?
When did the likes of men like Adeboye become political figures . If any thread should be locked it's that in the politics section.

I expect you to be fair and objective instead of allowing your christian sentiments make decisions for you.
Peace out.

Kobojunkie:
Sigh!!!

That is the problem I have with arguing things such as these with folks who do not even understand what it is all about? Are you going to tell me next that my God is all in my mind?

Again, there is cajoling people into doing things out of flattery and making up stories, and then there is this. Like I have said over and over now, I attend this church. I know that the concept is NOT unbiblical, and I know that these people do it of their own accord and not FORCED or FALSELY DECIEVED into doing this by anyone but their own minds. They all have access to a copy of the Bible and are mostly educated enough to read and understand if they are being lied to in anyway. So I am not sure what you are going on about, only that now I see I am arguing in vain and will choose RIGHT NOW to QUIT. 

Good for you!
Keep fueling daddy 419 G.O's luxury gulf stream jet. . .

Mowire:
Tudor. Are you no longer an atheist? Which good Lord are you refering to here? Confused man (woman). You should not be posting on issues that require some level of spritual understanding/knowledge.

If you at least apply some of your so called spiritual understanding you'd know that it was in reply to this post.

seweoye:
May the good lord forgive all of you.

Mowire:
Tudor. Are you no longer an atheist? Which good Lord are you refering to here? Confused man (woman). You should not be posting on issues that require some level of spritual understanding/knowledge.

If you at least apply some of your so called spiritual understanding you'd know that it was in reply to this post.

seweoye:
May the good lord forgive all of you.

Akanniade:
To all those making dirty remarks, I dont see the G.O forcibly removing  money from ur pockets. Those that have been giving have no complain. I agree that it looks like sheer insensitivity in this poverty infested country. Nevertheless the great commission of preaching the gospel to all nations cannot be comprimised.

The great commission is to go into the world and save souls not go and dupe the nations.

Who said the government cannot regulate churches?
In the UK there's a government parastatal called charity comission that monitors church finances and how they are spent to make sure the pastors don't embezzle funds for personal use.
Its the same comission that indicted pastor ashimolowo of the KICC for embezzlement.

The Nigerian government should take example but they won't why?
Because the the theiving politicians themselves are close buddies with the G.O's. . .

Kobojunkie:
UUmmm . . . . I am not sure what part you do not understand when I say they are not cajoled into giving. These people are mostly being told the truth in all this.[b] I have had to sit through most of these calls myself and listened to the exact words used to for lack of a better word SELL these ideas to them. [/b]I posted a bible verse to inform you of this so you understand that what this is, is not cajoling them into doing this but simply using bible verses which are according to the belief. If you want to attack,

You know why you lack a better word, simply its because it's cajoleing. Pure and simple.
If thats the true teaching of christianity then i'm sorry to say christianity is flawed.
There are churches who do not collect offerings and tithe, neither do they dabble into merchandising and selling the gospel yet there are testimonies.
Are they reading the bible backwards?

In an ideal world the church should be a charity concerned with propagating the gospel and not making money at ever turn including charging toll fee of 20naira when members want to urinate in toilets.

You announce that you you're forming an exclusive millionaires club where members can dole out 1m whenever god needs it how is that supposed to make poor members feel.
The stupid millionaires who more likely than not stole the money would believe they have special blessings from the lord.
Upon all the promised blessings all we see is daddy g.o getting fatter while the members are living in stark poverty.

Look, I have schemed some of your posts on here and it seems you are another one of those I like to avoid when it comes to subjects of this sort. You are free to believe as you want, but at least learn to deal FAIRLY with people.

If by "people" you mean con men, then sorry i cannot oblige you.

chukwudi44:
Tudor since you dont beleive in evolution then,what do you think brought the earth and humanity into existence, give us your own tudor theory.

Dude i don't have a theory. . .i never claim to know it all or have all the answers quite unlike you christians. . . .

May the good lord punish daddy G.O. . .

damhadji:
panasonic       oh sorry tudor! you are here again to Criticize the old man. Why dont you leave him and let him do whatever God has allowed him to do?

its a free world u know. you to can start ur club if this is driving you nuts. i'm sure nobody is holding you. before you can even get a crowd as large as that to tell, you sef wont be qualified to join the club you created.

I am not a theif so i won't start clubs telling members to give money  whenever god needs it. . .  Tell daddy 419 to ask god to rain his own money from heaven and stop begging us common men,

epot:
@ Tudor,

I think you should be mindfull of what you say about anointed men of God,

Who anointed the old con man?
Last time i checked they didn't stamp anointed on the man's forehead.

its not a forceful matter,if you don't like what you see, you have the free will to look to the other side or better still start your own church,

You want me to look the other side?
Can you see how stupid you sound. . . .if evil men like adeboye are exploiting poor people all around it's the duty of good men to stand up for what is right.

nobody has come out to complain,rather we hear ppl give testionies of how their problems were solved, through prayers.

There is no evidence that prayer works!
Muslims, buddists and ifa worshippers all claim to have testimonies. Even at the church of Elvis in LA people testify!


When daddy 419 prays and by some stroke of luck you get money they testify he's a powerful man but if it doesn't work {majority are of this category} they say you don't have enough faith or your grandfather took your destiny to the pacific ocean in 1902- Every excuse is given.

If you are rather pained by the fact that he created a millionaires club and you're not on that league , too bad for you ! lick your wounds in the confinement of your dingy crib,and stop opening your dirty foul smelling mouth,and sayin rubbish. Jungle monkey!

What tha Man has achieved in life, i pray you, why i'm even saying tis? Brainless baboon.

Typical of a brainwashed ass licker of daddy 419. You keep blabbing acheivements, what has the old fool acheived?
How has the selfish bastard impacted this country positively?
All he did was to be supporting OBJ's corrupt government even receiving a special import waiver from the ex presido. So he can import without paying duties.

He was well known as a pally of OBJ with the latter visiting redemption camp several times. Nowhere did adeJALE condemn OBJ for his sins.
Prophets like samuel, jerimiah, nathan and elijah all publicly criticized the kings for their sins even at great personal risk.
You expect a greedy old theif like adeboye to think about lining his pocket and saving his own ass. I weep for the church!

Religion has so bastardized the mentality of nigerians that they now think through their arse. . . .damn!

lagbaja:
I can see a lot of ignorance being displayed here. Spriritual exercises like this one will never make sense to those who dont understand them and have never put them to test. For those of us who happen to soon be members of the club 1000,and who have benefited from similar exercies in the past, the rewards are priceless God is ever faithful to his promises of rewarding cheerful and honest givers.

Why is it only daddy 419 G.O thats getting all the bl£$$ing$ ? Majority of the members are poor despite the fact that it's their money that feeds the criminal pastor.

The kleptomaniac G.O would do anything to steal from the public. Even at the latest convention he was charging 10 and 20 naira for each time you want to use a damn toilet!
What a monkey that man is!

By the way, I am not a politician or public servant and my incomes are genuine and divine. Have u tried to ask yourselves why nations that always gives (e.g. US) always stays on top,  because its a spiritual law silly!.

I just shake my head in pity for you.

The U.S is a better country today because they quit looking to heaven waiting for some stupid white jewish god to come from heaven to solve all their problems.
Foolish nigerians are still looking and studying for phantom spiritual laws meanwhile the rest of the developed world are using the laws of nature to better their life.
Keep waiting for the white jewish carpenter to come rescue you. Rubbish.

And oh, BTW, the U.S has the greatest amount of foreign debt. Is that spiritual law too?