₦airaland Forum

RodgersAkpafu:
Alright
So to answer the second part of your posts
Up north, there are minority dominated areas that are actually upscale and can be considered affluent
Well to do Indians, Pakistanis and even Nigerians get to live and congregate in certain postcodes
I live in one, so I know

I am happy to consider what is anecdotal assertions at best for the sake of "discussion flow", but it's difficult to accept this wholesale. We know from this discussion that Pakistanis are approx. 3% of the population, and all ethnic minorities comprise 18%. So this is hard for me to picture. Even with the knowledge that some - not all - minorities like to form enclaves/ A few streets here and there perhaps, but whole areas of affluent minorities? Where you do see this, it tends to be in less-affluent areas.

RodgersAkpafu:
And there are NO crimes or stabbings of any sort here. The kids are well behaved just like the white counterparts and everything is going fine (which is a sharp contraditoon to the racist belief that by virtue of being a minority, you are trouble)

Good to hear. Are there no affluent white Brits in this area, or, do they live elsewhere?

To state that there is a knife-crime problem which disproportionately affects black people in London, does not mean one is racist or hates minorities. Facts are not racist, bigoted or prejudiced. They are just evidence based views of the situation. There is no reason to view situations or events via a "race-based" lens in the first-instance, unless the evidence demonstrates race is a factor.

RodgersAkpafu:
Now in some areas of brum and Bradford, lower class south Asians litter the whole place and the place looks like a dump
But it is characteristic of their low education, lack of exposure and anyhowness

Ah! This sounds raycyst ! But seriously, what do you mean by "anyhowness" Poverty, lack of exposure and even illiteracy are not prime reasons or excuses for criminal behaviour. But if this anyhowness is culturally driven and leads to criminal action, it should be noted.

RodgersAkpafu:
That is not the image of every minority and it is shameful and insidious that the media wanna paint is as such

Sorry! The mainstream media is committed to presenting multiculturism as a runaway success. There may be minority media views that pander to that view, but it is not routinely rolled out by the BBC, ITV or papers like the Gaurdian, Times etc. We should be able to demonstrte this quite easily.

RodgersAkpafu:
Holbeck is an area that has a lot of white ppl, and that place IS A DUMP
So that proves my belied that it is more of the socio economic background of people, rather than race, that determines these positive or negative outcomes

Being a dump (poor or impoverished), does not make it crime-ridden, or necessarily mean that the cultural issues and types of crime will be the same. Is Holbeck awash with honour killings or acid attacks?

RodgersAkpafu:
These rich Pakistanis in Nice areas of Bradford, their kids are not out there constituting a nuisance?
In fact they lives that most white ppl in this country can only dream of experiencing in their lives

That maybe so to a degree, but what percentage of the demographic do these "rich Pakistanis" constitute. How do you prove they are of a different cultural mindset to the poorer members of their demgraphic.


TV

aswani:
With respect, this is absolute bunkum amongst the sea of rubbish you typed and you typed a lot of it.

You just type these things without even attempting to prove or defend them, that is my issue with your views.

I will indulge you, what cultural sensitivity exactly is preventing issues of London stabbings being addressed? I know the kind of places you read that nonsense from but humour me anyway.

I can award you a few marks for effort, but sadly, none for astute or revealing insights. Not to mention that your posts clearly reveal you as prejudiced and an apologist for Islam, so even the effort is misguided.

Having said that, redemption is a prevailing theme in Christianity and I am the eternal optimist. Try harder, be better. Perhaps read along for a bit, do some research of your own and then make meaningful contributions - even if it's just the odd searching question.

I am by no means being prescriptive.


TV


...have a read - written by a British-Pakistani - https://unherd.com/2023/02/pakistani-child-sex-abuse-is-an-open-secret/?=refinnar

RodgersAkpafu:

lmaoooooo

Anyways @TVO1 over to you

It's TV01, thank you.

RodgersAkpafu:
BTW I will give a rebut to those questions you asked me hopefully by close of business today

I eagerly await your response. No tropes, no clichés. Evidence and facts please. By way of reminder,
1. what are the hallmarks of the far-right? Beliefs, political & social positions, demographics etc.
2. what meaningful power the far-right have in this country? The political face or organisations that represent this "far-right" phenom
3. please detail a list of atrocities committed by this mystical far-right in the last decade. Violence, harms, fatalities, organisations involved

RodgersAkpafu:
I am stylishly waiting for Gerrard59 response to my post, then I'll give a response to yours as well.

Is tis a stylish way of backtracking or preparing a possible exit strategy ?

RodgersAkpafu:
I'll just chime in and say that the common denominator to stabbings in the UK is poverty which leads to gang affiliations which also leads to street violence
Any other argument, especially a racial.based argument is bunkum and a lie

Kindly clarify what you mean by common denominator. And if you mean "main factor", could you evidence that please. Are you aware of what the biggest indicator for poverty actually is?

RodgersAkpafu:
Affluent areas of minority ppl do not commit gang/knife crime
And most knife crimes in the UK are freaking committed by white people (refer to Blackpool and Glasgow )

Given the demographics of this country, we don't (and I stand to be corrected as I'm a lifelong Londoner) have affluent areas of mostly minority ppl. What we have is minorities that live in affluent areas. A meaningful difference. Further, most areas or communities which are mostly minority populated are more likely to be less affluent.

Do you have anything to corroborate your initial claim? And that second claim about knife crimes vis-a-viz Blackpool & Glasgow. In a relative (proportionate, not absolute). I am clear that aswani lends no insight or carefully considered positions to this discussion, we'll soon see if you are cut from the same cloth.


Danke
TV

Explore2xmore:
However you define and understand is your entitlement.

Likewise for everyone

Explore2xmore:
Temporal or arranged marriages is part of human existence from history to date despite what is commanded against it. It is one of many points of mankind's arrogance at temporal gain or pleasure.

Is illicit sex sin? Are temporary marriages (adultery by any other name) illicit and mere covers for illicit sin? Can sin be sanctified?

Explore2xmore:
Sahih Muslim 1406 h
Rabi' b. Sabra reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle pbuh prohibited the contracting of temporary marriage.

That some will twist and misinterprete the directives is not in any way strange, alas! At the end everyone will know and be rewarded

There was no abrogation in the koran. Hadiths are problematic in all sorts of ways (not least due to being prohibited in the koran. They are mostly fabricated, due to political reasons. Not agreed on, and in many cases contradictory to the koran.

That being said, my thrust is the outworking mutah and misyar (and derivatives) are widely practised in the Islamic world. Apart from being sinful, it's regressive. Why can Islam not self-correct?


TV

RodgersAkpafu:
I'm glad you are well informed about the subject matter
it's refreshing
You of all people having witnessed that should be wary of a resurgence of such in this country
Don't be naive to think that things can't quickly degenerate into that
Looking at the disgusting racism being fanned across social media and the "radicalisation" of these young men specifically , it may only be a matter of time before shyte hits the fan....... again

Scare-mongering. Yes, there are still racism and challenges, but which country is free of prejudice and division? It's easy to slur this country, whilst turning a blind eye to the sectarianism and tribalism in the homelands. Even here, you have colourism and inter-ethnic divisions. You can only paint this country bad on an absolute scale of perfection not applied relative to other countries.

I also note you stylishly dribbled past my 3 questions on the far-right . Although I agree a lot of tensions are stirred up by the ruling elite. Using the West' so called destabilisation of middle-eastern countries as an excuse is just sad. Don't these people and countries have agency. Why are they willing to sell out their people, heritage and countries for small change, to people that don't have their best interest at heart?

Sweden and Denmark have seen the outcomes and responded accordingly, We can only turn a blind-eye here in the UK for so long. At some point there will be a reckoning. The question is what will that reckoning look like?

TV

RodgersAkpafu:
as for paragraph 3, from your response, that is a pointer that that category may aptly describe where u stand

Typo. That should read as follows;
You are in no positions to tell Christians anything. The UK is a post-Christian country. And if certain subgroups are indeed - and unfairly - seen unfavourably, should good behaviour and integrity should be abandoned in favour and racial politics and sectarian bias?

RodgersAkpafu:
And as for paragraph 4
That's a very funny joke.
I have dated a few Pakistani women and they are AWESOME
who knows ?
I may just marry one 8 )

Good luck with that - you will take your shahada first sha!

RodgersAkpafu:
This TV01 man is a very funny man

I'm not sure I even have energy to type again
But all I'll say is
To all ye minorities stroking the far right....
When e set, una eye go clear

So, your whole reason for viewing this from a biased lop-sided view is to prevent the ascendancy of the far right? Please tell us
1. what are the hallmarks of the far-right?
2. what meaningful power do the far-right have in this country?
3. please detail a list of atrocities committed by this mystical far-right in the last decade?

RodgersAkpafu:
UK has been at this bus stop before in the 70s and 80s
Ask people who were kids here as minorities what they faced.
Anyways no wahala make we dey look

Yes, and I witnessed it first-hand. the term "Paki" was a common slur. Many will not be familiar with the terms "sambo" and "wog" used for black people. The UK is light-years away from that era - and the vast majority won't even have been there. It's no reason or excuse for your prejudice or more generally swinging the pendulum the other way to turn a blind-eye to racism against the majority indigenous population. That is asking for a far-right response.

RodgersAkpafu:
Lemme see how this will play out

Yes, let's.


TV

Gerrard59:
Thank you very much for providing a clear and thorough view of the entire incident. I appreciate the time and efforts.

Apparently, the politicians, especially the white ones, are to be blamed for allowing electoral support to come in between ensuring rule and order is enforced. This is how societies are left to ruin.

Thanks, and agreed. Pandering to certain subgroups out of fear or favour will seriously undermine social cohesion. The West has made a huge mistake allowing mass migration of cultures that are not only unaligned with, but will never assimilate with and hate the native values. And one logical consequence of that is the growth of the far-right.

aswani:
By the way, some of them were Bangladeshi and I believe one or two Afghans in the grooming rings unearthed. The point being, jumping up and down and taking about British-Pakistani is a falsehood so your "Facts" laden posts need tweaking.

You are just making the point. It was muslim-Pakistani, as they are the majority which was clearly stated. It was mostly Pakistanis where they are in the majority, but it was near universally muslim - what religion were the Bangladeshis and Afghanis? Where Christian Pakistanis implicated? Please try and keep up and connect the dots.

TV

aswani:
Excellent excellent response RodgersAkpafu, I am not sure we'll get through sha.

Our friend has been convinced it is them and us and he is part of "Us", a shame.

The "us" are those that actually love the country and have it's best long-term interests at heart. The "them" are those who come to a "lovely country" and immediately start pursuing self-interest. And who will "japa" for small change or if things take a turn for the worse.

RodgersAkpafu:
the worst part is that IF he thinks this way
He doesn't realise that he is in the "them" bracket

Even if your postulation is true, that doesn't stop me behaving objectively and basing my positions on truth or the facts of a matter.

RodgersAkpafu:
That's what I tell all these damn Christians
Because you profess the same "supposed" religion with these guys does not mean they see you as equals
We are all seen the same by this subgroup of people in the society and there is no good behaviour that will scrub that from you

You are in no positions to tell Christians anything. The UK is a post-Christian country. And if certain subgroups are indeed - and unfairly - seen unfavourably, good behaviour and integrity should be abandoned in favour and racial politics and sectarian bias.

RodgersAkpafu:
Shebi now in right wing circles, they are saying Auslander Raus and resignation for all non Caucasians
IF this comes to fruition, everybody is getting the boot.
Anyways that is a separate discussion

Ey yah! Worried you may have to find another "lovely country". Better check if Shabs is available so you can do "anchor marriage" aka marriage-for-papers .


TV

I was unable to respond in a more timely manner as I was banned. Wonder why??

RodgersAkpafu:
Call it what you like
But we see this thing for EXACTLY what it is
An instrument for Race Rage baiting
That was how these liars claimed that the Southport killer was a Pakistani and the ripple effect set the entire country on fire through the protests of last year.
Ugliness unleashed on the street in a way I have never seen since I moved to this (lovely) country

"Race rage baiting" - interesting term. can this happen in a vacuum?

The claims made about the Southport killer were that he was a muslim and a migrant. The press reported he was a Welsh choirboy from a Christian family. I don't condone violence, but protests are a legitimate activity in liberal democracies.

RodgersAkpafu:
You are only being biased
and even you know it
Nobody is downplaying what happened, and :
Calling put "dog whistling" is not being an apologist!
Calling out hypocrisy is NOT apologist

You cant force your position by reciting baseless tropes and clichés. I'm making mine based on the facts, not self-interest, ideological persuasion or identitarian politics as you clearly are. The fact remains that in CSE of this nature, Pakistani men making up 3% of the population are perpetrators of 85% of the crimes.

Yes, overall caucasians are responsible for 83%, but they make up 85% (those %'ages may be reversed) of the population. This particular cohort is compounded by the omerta within the community and official complicity in covering up - https://unherd.com/2023/02/pakistani-child-sex-abuse-is-an-open-secret/?=refinnar

RodgersAkpafu:
Like @aswani referenced earlier, white men are OVER REPRESENTED in the molestation and grooming of kids in South East Asia, why are they not branded. White/Anglo Saxon Abuse Gangs
They also over represented in school shootings, why are their kids not branded White School Shooter network?
But Nigerians can be branded scammers, and Pakis rapists right ?
Due to the actions of a minority
It's good ole dogwhistlimg and racism, and even you find it hard to rebut the argument that's why you skirt over it

And of course, the hiding place of the apologist "whataboutery". If your assertion about white men is true, then the representative authorities are free to term and deal with it it as they see fit. School shootings? In the UK? Hyper-whataboutery. Riddle me this please, are any of the crimes you mentioned covered up by the communities or aided and abetted by official complicity?

It's positions like yours that prevent issues like the London stabbings being addressed. Hesitancy due to racial sensitivity prevents the police from targeting the crimes appropriately. Your bias in defence of the crimes of one ethnicity, is allowing your own to be seriously harmed. Tragic.

RodgersAkpafu:
The only area we agree on is that an HONEST enquiry devoid of political bias be done, and recommendations made and implemented
Simple and short

Your ideological biases and racial prejudices are still in view, regardless of the politics involved. I have made my position regards politics and politicians clear,

RodgersAkpafu:
The ethnicities of the perpetrators AND victims is (relatively)immaterial here.
Commit the crime
Do the time/face the consequences
End of story

Of course all crimes should be thoroughly investigated, charges brought accordingly and the right preventative measures put in place. But this cannot happen whilst material aspects of crimes are conveniently ignored or used as a reason not to pursue justice.


TV

RodgersAkpafu:
The list of names are really long

There is Jimmy Saville
Torchlight thr Church of England and there are a good number hiding there
One of thr leadership had to recently resign
There is this MP too that was disgraced as well (forgotten his name)

The list is long and endless
It's just so ridiculous that they wanna give this shameful behaviour JUST a Pakistani face...
Outside right wing echo Chambers, the thing isn't working though
I live in one of the biggest cities in the North (and thos country) and judging by the general sentiment, no gimmick played by these guys will give them a single seat here
They should jkeep playing

Within the whole spectrum of child sexual abuse, there is a particular strain perpetrated by muslim men which the authorities have failed to deal with, and have also worked to cover-up. Whatever anyone's political bias, ideological leaning or racial prejudice, this tragedy should be thoroughly investigated. Spanning decades and with with estimates from 10 to 100 of thousands of victims any attempt to downplay this is apologist.


TV

RodgersAkpafu:
@TV01

Just to clarify that my admiration for Shabana is rooted in her stand on issues and stating it without fear or favour

Has nothing to do with a "school boy crush"
Or "losing objectivity"
Just to point that our before you get things twisted

Relax yourself, that was just joshing, not a serious point. As noted, I care not for politics, political parties or individual politicians. I'll be back to josh you some more when she gets caught up in scandal.

RodgersAkpafu:
"and the derangement is as a result of"?
You tell me, since you are "all knowing" lol

You termed it "deranged men abusing naive girls". Please explain how male derangement leads to female abuse - extra points if you can be specific about the specific derangement and abuse in view.


TV

aswani:
Grooming that only happened within the past 20 years is 5 decades old.

Child sexual abuse itself s likely ages old - the UK gang rapes by largely muslim males has been traced back to as far as 5 decades. It may have been smaller scale at that time, but it has been evidenced.

aswani:
Also all those catholc reverend fathers, scout leaders, football coaches etc that were implicated in these kind of things, are they also Muslim?

Nope. Mentioned them and that in my initial post on this thread. But that is known as "whataboutery". Sex crimes should be called out and clearly labelled, whenever, wherever and by whomsoever.

https://www.nairaland.com/8309906/kemi-badenoch-demands-national-inquiry/6#133658885

aswani:
Were your popes and higher ups in the catholic church in the UK and US not going all out to protect their paedophile reverend fathers? Instead of disrobing them, they were reassinging them and those were just doing more harm.

Not my pope, but yes, as mentioned, they should be called out and held accountable. Justice must be served. Likewise for other cohorts.

aswani:
The point is grooming is not exclusive to any group.

That is not the argument.

aswani:
I nearly fainted the other day watching a program of a white UK woman whose uncle, fathers brother, not only raped her repeatedly since sge was 8, but was passing her on to his friends too.

And presumably you would like to see a no-holds barred investigation and justice?

aswani:
How about white men, like Gary glitter, that go to Asian countries to sleep with young children.

Cited in my first post. You do realise that all you are doing is being an apologist?

aswani:
What about the us musician, from a well known band, that was paying a woman, to allow him penetrare her one year old daughter. This happens in the last 5 to 10 years.

I recall that case - did anyone excuse or downplay it

aswani:
It isn't those dastardly Muslims, it's those dastardly men if all races who are inhuman and sick.

Only in this instance, it mostly was, and should be called out and investigated shouldn't it?


TV

RodgersAkpafu:
Saying motives for raising this case as mute is laughable
The straightforward solution to this is to bring legislation to Parliament that deals decisively with this issue.

Yes. the reason this was raised is at best of second-order consideration. The issue here is persecution for the crimes committed, ensuring justice is served and implementation of any corrective actions.

RodgersAkpafu:
Second, Saying Labour Party depends on the Muslim vote is even more funny
In the last year election, the Muslims abandoned the Labour Party because of their stand on the Gaza matter

UK minority populations typically vote Labour. This may be changing somewhat but 1n 2019, Muslims voted 80%+ for Labour. Figures for 2024 are around 63% (factcheck).

In the 20 constituencies where the muslim vote is 30%+, they have real leverage - especially given their ability to mobilise and the typically low turnout numbers. The prevailing muslim voices coalesced around the Gaza issue, with a number of muslim independents standing.

RodgersAkpafu:
They ran independent candidates (whom some won) , voted green Party in other instances and my girl Shabana Mahmoud (whom I really love) almost lost her seat

This voting along sectarian lines returned 4 muslim MPs and at least 2 whites who campaigned along similar lines. More pertinently, Jess Philips and Wes Streeting both had majorities in the hundreds and are on shaky ground. Jon Ashworth lost his seat. Most Labour MPs - even muslims - who had not been clear on the Gaza issue lost votes.

Perhaps objectivity would become you more if you rid yourself of your schoolboy crush on Shabana. And, as mentioned. her numbers suffered as she toed the part linme - understandable given she is quite high up and has been rewarded with the AG ministerial post.

RodgersAkpafu:
Labour still won decisively in 2024
So that "block vote " you r talking does not exist

Of course it does - it just went elsewhere to a degree this election. Labours victory was mostly due to the woeful 14-yearTory performance. Overall, this was way more important than the muslim vote. However, we have seen sectarian voting become a thing. Labour knows and has always acted with the knowledge that constituencies with high numbers of muslim voters are can quite easily swing against thew - this with an estimated UK population of 6%+ (although I would think it's higher).

RodgersAkpafu:
This is primarily a case of people who have a bone to pick with Muslims and using this as a guide to rage bait ppl.

This is a knee-jerk response. Whilst those who have a bone to pick with muslims exist, this case was the reverse. The authorities were hesitant to act due to pressure\fears of being labelled racist or islamophobic. This has been decades in the making.

RodgersAkpafu:
Let's see real legislation if they really care about safeguarding
When you hear them talk, you hear them emphasise in the "white British girls" part

The means to deal with this were always in place. It was a lack of political will\integrity that led to the failing, not a lack of legislation. I don't believe the horrors outlined in the transcripts (which along with the point made you conveniently ignored) were ever legal,

RodgersAkpafu:
Instead of deranged men abusing naive girls
You and I know why they do that
Don't even pretend

And the derangement is as a result of? Keep obfuscating, that is the reason why this situation is as it is.


TV

Thanks for your response.

None of this addresses the outworking of mutah and misyar as widely practiced in Islam today. Or the fact that they are both thinly-veiled means to sanctify illicit sex.

As stated, it informs my thinking that Islam has no objective morality, only the halal\haram notion'


TV

Explore2xmore:
Would you say the verse refers exclusively to males?

In classical Arabic, the masculine plural is used to refer to groups that may include men and women. This is a common grammatical feature in the language and does not mean gender identification unless this is clarified by context.


Saudi Arabia is the custodian of the two holy mosques in Makkah and Madinah, Saudi Arabia holds a vital position in supporting Hajj and Umrah while also safeguarding Islamic heritage. Nonetheless, the country's socio-political choices, modernization initiatives, and interpretations of Islamic law are shaped by its distinct historical and cultural background, rather than serving as a definitive representation of Islam.

There is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab, nor of a white person over a black person, nor of a black person over a white person, except by taqwa (piety)." (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23489)

Quran 49:13 O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted

The best of you are those who are best in character" (Sunan At-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1162).

aswani:
First off, what do you mean by "not properly documented" ?

Many reports were ignored or not followed up. Often crimes were captured without complete detail.

aswani:
The grooming thing was in the news when it happened, first item, front page. Like the other poster said, every single person involved has seen jail time. I also believe all councils involved have had Official Inquiry's over it, bringing in external people to conduct them, and overhauled their processes.

Nope. It's been known about for something like 5 decades and only really came to national prominence around 2010. The inquiries were as much to "cover backs" as seek redress. No recommendations from the only national inquiry - 20 of them - have been implemented. Local inquires only have limited scope and powers.

aswani:
The girls were from a tough background, done akrwafu on drugs, they were then plied with money, drinks and drugs. A lot of their case workers were either sacked or resigned. Thames Valley Constabulary was also indicted as a case worker had reported it but wasn't taken seriously enough.

No official has been formally implicated, charged or jailed - let alone held to accont - for the institutional failings. Perhaps you can provide evidence to the contrary.

aswani:
Which government will take over to expose anything? Is it the Tories that have been in power all this while, including when the issue cane out, that didn't do anything and are using this to try and garner votes? How many people in the Tory Party went to see the girls that were groomed.

Agree here. They are both as bad as each other. Equally corrupt and will always play politics first, with accountability and justice way down the list.

aswani:
Another grooming gang has been unearthed on Scotland, guess what, no Muslims, just Polish people. It's not a Muslim thing, it's a wicked human beings thing.

Yes, evil resides in all ethnicities, races, religions and institutions.

However, wherever you find Muslim minorities in the West (regardless of the major ethnicity of those Muslims), you find evidence of this type of crime. Even in India, "love-Jihad" is a thing. In Muslim majority countries it's forced conversion, forced marriage and sexual assault. Typically without consequence. Have Boko Haram returned our girls yet?


TV

RodgersAkpafu:
There is more nuance to this topic than you are seeing

Agreed - and much more than acknowledged in this post

RodgersAkpafu:
First, you are wrong about paragraph 2, the case was not treated with leniency. They are in prison, others were deported. Elon Musk and co are lying through their teeth
The Right wing is playing politics with a national tragedy. They don't care about those girls
They are just trying to rile voters up with racist bait

This is a generational, nationwide, scandal. And yes, some are playing politics as the Tories have been equally lax in prosecuting this, but it mostly happened under labour controlled councils. However it was raised, whoever raised it, and the motivation for it being raised are mostly mute points. It happened and should be addressed, end-of. Attempting to centre the discussion on these 3 points is obfuscating at best and essentially aiding and abetting the cover-up at worst.

RodgersAkpafu:
Most of those indicted in this shameful practice are already in jail, and let's be clear, the correct definition of what most of those men did was statutory rape and grooming I.e. luring girls with gifts to go sleep with them despite them being minors.

This has been going on for somewhere around 5 decades. Serious, although limited action only really started less than 2 decades ago.

The point about "indictments" is at best ignorant or outright dishonest. Firstly, many of the early perpetrators will have gotten off scot-free. Secondly, many instances were covered up or not progressed to prosecution. Meaning there have been only limited indictments of the perpetrators, And NONE of those complicit in covering up (authorities, enforcement, NGO's etc.), have been held accountable.

RodgersAkpafu:
They claimed the girls gave consent, but it is clear that the girls were manipulated, and were not old enough to understand the full ramifications of what they were doing
But they are making it appear like girls were kidnapped and violently gang raped in the house for political gains

Have you read any of the transcripts from the court cases? These girls were groomed, assaulted, drugged, raped, gang-raped, trafficked and in some cases murdered. More perversely, many victims and in some instances their parents were persecuted by the police!

RodgersAkpafu:
Sara Sharif was a victim of something similar
Because she is a brown girl, they don't care

Absolute crap. This story was headline and front-page for days. We saw the arrests, heard phone-call recordings between the family and police and saw clips of the extradition. The court proceedings were all closely followed on national TV.

And this case was in no ways similar. It was the murder of a child by her biological father, stepmother and uncle. Sent to school in the Hijab to mask evidence of the assaults and then withdrawn from school. Absolutely tragic, but categorically different, except for the religious and cultural background (not saying the authorities necessarily failed here and there was no mention of sexual assault, although one wonders).

RodgersAkpafu:
Gerrard59 there is political and racial undertone to this mess
And the tories had 14 years to do sth, now that a lefties took power less than 7 months ago, they have found their voice

Yes, there are political and racial undertones - and they are in some ways intertwined.

The labour party depend on the block Muslim vote for much of their electoral success and will do whatever it takes to hold onto this block. Hence the unwillingness to tackle this head-on.

The racial aspect was two-fold. Many were concerned about being labelled racist or islamophobic and as a result hesitated to act. There was also a keen awareness of keeping resultant community intentions in check.

Even worse, many of the crimes were aggravated by the religious and cultural prejudices of the perpetrators. Fact! The court transcripts clearly reveal this.


TV

...my apologies for the graphic nature of the attachments. I consider it right on balance as the cowardice, obfuscation, lies and smearing around this continue...

The verse below refutes most of your claims. Claiming "gender-neutrality" as posited, would actually suggests that same-sex marriage is a thing in Islam. Most mainstream Muslims would consider this heretical.

As for the point about "abolition of slavery in Islam", that is ahistorical at best. Saudi Arabia reluctantly ended slavery in the early 1960's forced by the British. Slavery is still extant in parts of the Muslim world. And please, spare me the the "society not religion" trope.

It's hard to see this response as anything more than an attempt to massage or whitewash the true meaning and intent contained within the Islamic scriptures. There is no true sense of classic vs. contemporary positions in Islam. Certainly not in it's mainstream beliefs and outworking.

Understand the desire to present the religion in the best light possible. I find most presentations of Islam are based on unfounded assertions and trumped up claims. The Koran, hadiths and narratives often contradict, with great effort spent to explain the differences.

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
١ قَدْ أَفْلَحَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ1 Successful indeed are the believers
٢ الَّذِينَ هُمْ فِي صَلَاتِهِمْ خَاشِعُونَ2 Who are humble in their prayers,
٣ وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَنِ اللَّغْوِ مُعْرِضُونَ3 And who shun vain conversation,
٤ وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِلزَّكَاةِ فَاعِلُونَ4 And who are payers of the poor-due;
٥ وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ5 And who guard their modesty -
٦ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ6 Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
٧ فَمَنِ ابْتَغَىٰ وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ7 But whoso craveth beyond that, such are transgressors -

Explore2xmore:
Do a lot better than Wikipedia.

Islam is real and practical. At the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh an effective means of correcting social ills is seen. It wasn't draconian. Consider the stages to forbidding consumption of alcohol as an example.

The term sex slave implies coercion and abuse, which is categorically forbidden in Islam. Captives who made up those whom the right hand posses often became integrated into families, were treated with kindness, and were eventually freed.

Those whom your right hands possess in Islam was a regulated system meant to provide rights and dignity to captives, not to exploit them. It was a significant step in reforming pre-Islamic practices and ultimately led to the abolition of slavery within Islamic societies.

Ma Malakat Aimanukum should be understood within its linguistic context as encompassing various forms of relationships and possessions rather than being narrowly defined as referring only to female slaves. It
is gender-neutral and can refer to both male and female captives.

It can be understood as referring to individuals who are under one’s rightful possession or care. While classical interpretations have leaned towards slavery, contemporary scholars argue that this should be viewed through a lens of marital contracts rather than ownership in the traditional sense.

Lisan-ul-Arab by Ibn-Manzoor Vol. 13 also details this phrase to mean to marry.

TV

Sterope:
I understand but I am reiterating that when it comes to minority they make the issues all about their religion or ethnicity. No one does that about white people. Crime is crime with them except the minority!

On the contrary, in this instance the authorities and institutions that should have dealt with this and nipped it in the bud, not wanting to be labelled racist or Islamophobic were all hesitant to act. Going as far as to turn a blind-eye or even cover up the offences. If the perpetrators had been white or other than Muslim, it wouldn't have persisted for as long as 5 decades according to some accounts.

Sterope:
No UK scholar has come out tell us what and where it is stated in the Qur'an.

A case from the Islamic scriptures is easily made. My take here is the "social outworking", but if you would like to go there, I or any number of NL Religious thread posters could oblige if so inclined.

Sterope:
More cultural than religion biko.

We hear the "culture not religion" trope a lot when defending infarctions by Muslims. But that itself is an indictment of Islam. Of all religions, Islam colours, and in many cases hollows out indigenous culture the most. If Islam is what it claims to be and does what it purports to do, regressive cultural behaviours should be extirpated, not live alongside the religion.

Sterope:
The general belief that white women are sexually liberal therefore they are game for sexual abuse because their culture is sexually liberal.

Yes, the west and it's people are largely "sexually liberal. How does that make them "game for abuse". And at 11-15 years of age, which was the age range of most of the victims and at which statutory consent cannot be given?

And when you say "white women", is that not racist? What about white Muslim women? Or devout religious white women of any faith? Quick to play the racist Islamophobia card when such clear bigotry permeates your own beliefs and thinking.


TV

Explore2xmore:
Please learn more about the Misyar you brought up.

This may not be definitive, but a starting point - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misyar_marriage - one thing is clear, it is still much debated and nowhere close to being settled in the Islamic world. Happy to be enlightened further.

Explore2xmore:
This was tied to the socio-economic structure of slavery in historical societies.

Is Islam not valid for all peoples, everywhere for all times? As misyar is practised in the present day, slavery does not appear to be a driver, or even in view in any meaningful way.

Explore2xmore:
Surah Al-Mu’minun (23:5-7) and Surah Al-Ma’arij (70:29-31) highlight that sexual relations are only allowed within the framework of a permanent marriage or with those whom your right hands possess. Those whom the right hand posses refer to concubines in that historical context. Temporary arrangements such as Mut'ah are not included in this allowance.

Concubines aka sex slaves? If these temporary arrangements are "temporary in application", why are they still extant in various guises and the subject of much debate to this day?

Explore2xmore:
Relations with those referred to as whom the right hand posses were not time-bound. The relationship was not temporary like Mut'ah but part of the larger context of slavery, with provisions for eventual emancipation.

Noted for discussion purposes, but without backing, assertions at best. Further, this does not present an "objective morality", or show that both these practices and derivatives are anything more than "slip roads" make sex available.


TV

Sterope:
I like this submission.

Just for emphasis: there is no part of religion that says to grab young girls and groom them. In an islamic country, they will be killed for these crimes.

Jail is too lenient anyways.

Thank you. I won't gainsay the point you make about what the religion says. Not because I agree, but because from a social POV, what is of interest, especially to the non-religious, who know or care little for the scriptures or doctrines, is the "outworking" of the religion.

The title of this thread in part reads "National Inquiry Into Rape Gangs By Muslim Men". Needless to say, across Europe's liberal western democracies, where there are significant minority populations of Muslims, this rape gang phenom occurs. In the UK, it was mostly Pakistani led given they are the majority of this minority population. But this crime occurs whatever the major national\ethnic background of the Muslim men. In fact, in one UK town (it has been documented as happening in over 50), where Somalis make up the majority of the Muslim population, it was Somali led.

Regardless of claims, as to what the religion says, why is there this dissonance? Why does this occur? Does it not happen in Islamic majority countries due to the different treatment of believing vs. non-believing women? Or due to the harshness of the penalties?


TV

Explore2xmore:
Misyar however it's seen is clearly different from Mutah.

Really? How? In outcome they both make sex available - primarily to men, where it should be forbidden.

Explore2xmore:
Ali reported that Allah's Messenger pbuh forbade Mut'ah and the eating of the flesh of domestic donkeys on the day of Khaybar."
(Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1407)

The Messenger of Allah pbuh said: 'O people! I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women. But Allah has forbidden it until the Day of Resurrection. So, anyone who has such a woman in his possession, he should let her go, and do not take anything of what you have given them.'"
(Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1406)

Hadith are not revelation. In round terms barely 1% of the written hadith are accepted, and even these are not universally agreed - within or between sects. They are typically deployed as a convenience or denied as suits. I find the whole notion of "hadith science" questionable at best.

And note the hadith quoted. Allowed in the past, forbidden then, but to be re-introduced later - not objectively moral.


TV

UncleAyo:
It is never abolished, they still practice it today.

Certainly not in the Koran - although I stand to be corrected? - hence the ongoing dispute.

UncleAyo:
They do it even during hajj in Mecca.

I had heard of sexual impropriety during the hajj, but not sought to explore further. I wouldn't have thought it took the form of mutah given how Sunni' rail against it?

The notion of mutah is at odds with adultery\fornication being sinful. Mutah, along with polygyny, sex slavery, appear to me be saying "it is but it isn't" or "it is, but here're some riders to help you get around it.

This partially informs my view of Islam having no "objective morality". I don't get a true sense of there being right or wrong. The guiding principle appears to be "forbidden or permitted".

The way both mutah and misyar seem to at once codify prostitution into law and reduce marriage to essentially the same level, begs so many questions. Especially since even in it's highest form, Islamic marriage is at best a transactional arrangement.

And to be frank, the driving imperative seems to be sex (and making it readily available to men). This ties into the overall treatment of women. I'm yet to figure out if Islam hates them or fears them more? It certainly appears to traduce them, deny them agency and persistently oppress them.


TV

Mutah is practiced mostly by the Shia sect. Although widely condemned by the majority Sunni' faction, they practice something similar called misyar. Is there evidence for "abrogation"?


TV

These crimes have been rumbling on for decades - always bubbling below the surface, with the occasional limited press scrutiny and political intervention. But there has never been the national will to fully grapple with the issue. It's right to question why Elon Musk chose to get involved at this point, but whatever his motivation, this shameful episode has been a blight on our nation and needs to be addressed. Justice must be done and seen to be done.

Fact – for decades, gangs of Muslim, mostly Pakistani males have been grooming, raping, trafficking, drugging and in some instances murdering, young, mostly white girls. Other ethnicities, religions and even boys have also been targeted, albeit to a much lesser extent.

Fact – these crimes and the violent, perverse nature of them, were exacerbated by a religious and cultural mindset, which viewed these children as essentially sub-human and undeserving of basic human dignity.

Fact – the perpetrators were often closely connected, with patterns of family ties (inter-generationally in many instances), kinship groups and neighbours clearly discernable.

Fact – there was little by way of tip-offs, whistleblowing or push-back from within the community itself. Those charged and imprisoned were wholeheartedly welcomed back by their families, communities and places of worship - often in close proximity to their victims.

Fact – during court cases, family members of the perpetrators were openly hostile and aggressive towards the victims and unashamedly affectionate towards their convicted male relatives.

Fact – the officials and authorities who should have protected and then come to the rescue of these children were often complicit. Turning blind eyes, denying them succour and redress. Guilty of high-level cover-ups, and in some instances actually involved in the crimes.

Could someone please explain how it works: A younger male initiates the grooming and then passes the victim onto an older male relative? A man rapes a child and call’s his brother, cousin, friends or work colleagues to “have-a-go”?

That is why it can be clearly tied to a community and religious mindset. There are “stories” of Imams stating in mosques that the worst of the rapists are still better and more likely to enter paradise than Christians.

Fact – there is a sordid history of child abuse and sex crimes in this nation. From high-profile cases like Jimmy Saville and several MP’s. Persistent rumours about goings-on in the “upper echelons” of society. Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein anybody? The church and even boarding schools have all been implicated.

In that sense, this saga could be viewed as another facet of this evil. But, along and alike with all the others, the demand should be that it is persecuted till justice is done and seen to be done.


TV

Those who are accusing KB of politicking do have a point. The fact remains that in 14 years of being in power, her party did little to seriously tackle this issue. And yes, it’s an ongoing phenomenon. They sense the national mood and the direction the political wind is blowing and are acting accordingly. All the parties are equally corrupt.

Fact – for decades, gangs of Muslim, mostly Pakistani males have been grooming, raping, trafficking, drugging and in some instances murdering, young, mostly white girls. Other ethnicities, religions and even boys have also been targeted, albeit to a much lesser extent.

Fact – these crimes and the violent, perverse nature of them, were exacerbated by a religious and cultural mindset, which viewed these children as essentially sub-human and undeserving of basic human dignity.

Fact – the perpetrators were often closely connected, with patterns of family ties (inter-generationally in many instances), kinship groups and neighbours clearly discernable.

Fact – there was little by way of tip-offs, whistleblowing or push-back from within the community itself. Those charged and imprisoned were wholeheartedly welcomed back by their families, communities and places of worship - often in close proximity to their victims.

Fact – during court cases, family members of the perpetrators were openly hostile and aggressive towards the victims and unashamedly affectionate towards their convicted male relatives.

Fact – the officials and authorities who should have protected and then come to the rescue of these children were often complicit. Turning blind eyes, denying them succour and redress. Guilty of high-level cover-ups, and in some instances actually involved in the crimes.

Could someone please explain how it works: A younger male initiates the grooming and then passes the victim onto an older male relative? A man rapes a child and call’s his brother, cousin, friends or work colleagues to “have-a-go”?

That is why it can be clearly tied to a community and religious mindset. There are “stories” of Imams stating in mosques that the worst of the rapists are still better and more likely to enter paradise than Christians.

Fact – there is a sordid history of child abuse and sex crimes in this nation. From high-profile cases like Jimmy Saville and several MP’s. Persistent rumours about goings-on in the “upper echelons” of society. Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein anybody? The church and even boarding schools have all been implicated.

In that sense, this saga could be viewed as another facet of this evil. But, along and alike with all the others, the demand should be that it is persecuted till justice is done and seen to be done.


TV

OkCornel:
Yeah right... I never answered TVs questions Well done.

Quite literally not one! I don’t see how anyone can review your submissions and behaviour on this thread and not find them somewhat odd – to put it mildly.

You have made swelling assertions about “truth” and “persons”, emphatically witnessing them as attested to by the Holy Spirit and, denying anyone to even query such presumptions!

On that basis, It seemed a shoo-in that you’d be able to answer a few simple questions to give some substance to your views and hopefully a modicum of edification to readers.

But no, it’s been a blanket refusal to respond, either by simply not responding, answering questions with totally unrelated posers or, driving the discussion down pointless dead-ends.

Further, you have resorted to various ruses to deflect attention from the issues that would really provide edification for many who are following. It’s been “All headlines, no story” – what are you about here?

Your “before the rooster crows thrice” manoeuvre on Mr. Hagin was quite astonishing to behold. More so, after which you immediately referred to his books as obligatory reading ahead of continuing with a certain line of discussion.

Which self-authored books did you read ahead of calling out Mr. Oyedepo on tithing, or Muttleylaff on same-sex intimacy?
Strangely, in your railing against obligatory tithing and the sinful nature of same-s3x relationships, you resorted solely to scripture to make your case – and rightly so.

Yet here, your attempts to “spiritualise” your position and effectively side-line the Spirit-breathed scriptures is, again, odd at best?
Most of your assertions simply collapse under the weight of their own contradictions. More importantly, it must be said that literally nothing you have posted passes muster in light of the gospel.

Not that I’m gainsaying your right to believe whatsoever you choose. However, one would have thought that a self-proclaimed seeker of truth would delight in openness and honesty.

You can of course falsify some of the above by making concerted responses to questions - and not just mine .


Cheers
TV

Is this a response to whether you could rightly be described as a follower and affirmer of Mr.Hagin and his ministry .
As for questions, I left a few for you in my last post . I will not chase you for answers. But whether you do or do not, it speaks volumes .


TV

OkCornel:
I have two questions.

1) Have you read The Triumphant Church?

2) Can you show us where what Jesus revealed to Hagin is inconsistent with the scriptures?


I have other books as well.

a) Battles of the Elohim
b) Conspiracy theories and the cross.


If you haven't read those books, please don't bother responding.

Shepherd00:
@OkCornel, I see you are a very strong believer and follower of Late Kenneth E.Hagin. I know you are a fierce opposer of monetary tithing, do you know Pastor Hagin was a strong proponent of Tithe payment?

I joined this discussion not so much due to the content, or what could be described as the "unbalanced" nature of some of it. There were many who touched on that point and I didn't need to add my voice. In fact, I would rather, and yet may, ask questions of it, rather than question it.

However, an even stronger driver for me was the question of "authenticity". Specifically, of those who claim to have been commissioned/sent by God and/or experienced a divine encounter with The Lord. Especially in light of the gospel and real practical experience.

A corollary to this is the seeming default of an almost universal acceptance. An a prior assumption, that they are indeed sent. This is often allied with a claim of "spiritual witness", which is in itself a form of defence and a foreclosure of any discussion.

In short, are there any false prophets, or false teachers, wolves in sheep clothing nko? All I hear is a consensus agreement that they are indeed sent, but may have erred along the way and, God sent them like that and they remain His servants and His to judge?

OkCornel:
You assume wrongly that I am a strong believer and follower of Late Kenneth Hagin.
That means absolutely anything Hagin preaches, I ought to swallow it hook, line and sinker. It doesn't work that way.

One would hope that a Christian's belief is always in God and/or The Lord Jesus Christ and His saving work. Having said that;

- You have repeatedly and strongly championed this man as someone who heard from The Lord
- Argued for some of His utterances to be esteemed as highly as canonical text
- Named him as someone called to office by God in this age
- Testified to having a witness to his mandate
- Posted excerpts form His writings (which you claim to have read extensively)

I apologise in advance if I've mis-ascribed anything to you, and kindly correct me if I am wrong in any of the above, but in light of the them, how could you not be?

TV

OkCornel:
Thanks for taking out time for this dialogue

No problem - hopefully we can all be edified

OkCornel:
I am still keen on the parameters regarding this written gospel truth. Is it limited to the writings of the Apostles? Is the gospel truth limited to a set of books. Yes or No. If yes, how many are they? So we can have a defined landmark for what is within/scriptures or canon.

The gospel is the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ. Specifically to mankind regards Gods unfolding plan of redemption. That is fully captured within the canon of biblical scripture.

A discussion of whether this should be 66 books or 72, the Catholic Bible or the one compiled by the Egyptian Coptic church, is to me irrelevant, unless you can show that the good news (of/the gospel) of our Lord Jesus Christ is materially affected by using one or the other.

OkCornel:
How many gospels/canons are we talking of here? 66? over 80?

As above

OkCornel:
This is not about getting extra materials that will contradict the gospel. How many canons makes up the scriptures that contain the gospel? If it's not open ended, how do we determine its completeness? How many canons are involved here?

I hope the above suffices? Please be specific about what is unclear if anything.

"If it is not open-ended how do we determine it's completeness", is a question for you to answer. I understand the canon to be completed with the writings of the apostles. The canonised faith has "once been delivered to all". Is there other/further truth out there? certainly, but it in no way changes the gospel message. Indeed, if it is open-ended, how can it at once be complete. Specifically the gospel, not personal intimations.

OkCornel:
You cannot know ALL TRUTH in a fixed period of time, albeit in this realm of existence. There is definitely a limit to what you can know by your own capacity. Since you cannot live forever in this realm of existence. The scope of ALL TRUTH however in this regard is not limited to religious beliefs. But all spheres of your life.
Well unless your argument is the Holy Spirit is only useful for scriptural matters, as opposed to all areas of your life. Be it career, spirituality, academics e.t.c.

So you are now limiting your "All TRUTH" proclamation"? Is it now the "gospel truth and personal intimations", not "everything about everything"?

Further , you further compromise your own postulations as you have claimed one needs to be a minimum (level2) of a genius to apprehend unwritten truth, and a prophet or seer (level 3) to avail oneself of unknown truth?

OkCornel:
All of the above. And if the OP deviates from the path, the same Holy Spirit will bring it to my attention. That brings us to 1 John 2 v 26-27 again.

So the contradiction between the OP and Pa Hagin - both of whom you witness to - did the Holy Spirit bring that to your attention and provide clarification?

OkCornel:
Again, that brings us to what ALL TRUTH means. Is it ALL TRUTH...or ALL SCRIPTURAL/GOSPEL TRUTH? . And back to the matter of gospel truth, how many books makes up the gospel TRUTH. I have not gotten your answer on this.

I believe you have. Please let me know if there is anything specific.

OkCornel:
My question is this. Is the prophecy or revelation any less of a TRUTH since it is not written in the Bible? Is that prophecy/revelation the word of God or the word of man?

That something s true, or even the word of God does not make it canonical or necessarily pertinent to the truth of the gospel.

There is not a different or additional, or as yet unrevealed redemptive work of God. Or additional work of The Lord Jesus Christ, which is what would be considered canonical or gospel truth at this point.

OkCornel:
And by something that directly imparts the gospel as received, do you mean...contradicting it? Absolutely not.

Ok

OkCornel:
Examples of progressive revelation within the time frame of the scriptures;
(a) Judah's captivity in Babylon was to last for 70 years as God revealed to Jeremiah. However, Daniel got further revelation on the matter to mean 490 years as the timespan.
(b) Prior to John's Revelation on a first and second resurrection, every other place in the scriptures pointed to both the righteous and wicked resurrected and judged on the same day. Nowhere else did we hear of a first and second resurrection.
(c) The era of the Law, then the Judges, then the Prophets...prior to the revelation of the Messiah is a big picture showing progressive revelation of the Truth and man's understanding of God over the ages.

All canonised. All captured within the gospel. If you insist on the term, show an example of progressive revelation outside the written canon. And one that is relevant/applicable to the body of Christ or even a significant part of it.

OkCornel:
Coming to know of any progressive revelation or unwritten truth that contradicts the core of the gospel...I don't know of any.

Not only not contradicts, but also, not adds or, not reveals, anything new in terms of the gospel abi? So what then is progressive revelation outside the gospel?

OkCornel:
Again, I do not know of any of those revelations that affects the core gospel truth. Although there are evidences, but those I've known of do not contradict the gospel.

Please explicate on what you term "evidence", as if it does not contradict nor embellish the gospel, it sounds like it is of no relevance

OkCornel:
It is not a "Christian/gospel derived framework" simply because it's not written black and white in the Bible. But that's what it is. Where do Prophets and seers get their revelations of Truth from? The Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit a written document? No. He is the Spirit of God, the source of all truth. Yet, they get their revelations from an unwritten source and pen it down. Just like the case of John's revelation. It was a truth once observable and witnessed by him, before it was written.

Then as I requested, corroborate it from the bible (any one of your choice), or the gospel contained within.

OkCornel:
It is a universal framework that the scriptures even derives its origins from. So it's the other way around.

Then please show how the scriptures (specifically the gospel/canon) derive from this universal framework, which it quite clearly contradicts.

OkCornel:
For clarity, are we talking of a positive effect or adverse effect? Thanks as I await feedback, especially on the number of canons that makes up the gospel.

Either. In any way whatsoever.

The canon is the number of books that comprise the Holy Scriptures or, bible if you prefer. The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which is the power of God to salvation is contained therein.


Cheers
TV

OkCornel:
1.

I initiated this discussion - and thanks for responding - with particular themes I wished to explore. However, I find that the discussion is becoming ever more expansive with more questions than answers and increasing adjunct issues, whilst not really touching on the themes as I envisaged. Let me sum up my response to what I believe are your questions;

1. Is there truth outside scripture or the canon - yes, but the gospel truth contains all we need to understand Gods unfolding plan for redemption and salvation in Jesus Christ.

2. Is the gospel canon complete - yes, per above

3. Can we perfectly "rightsize" the scriptures that contain the gospel? - a superfluous question unless it can be evidenced that there are verifiable texts that materially change the gospel as we have it. Or, the gospel can be demonstrated to be somehow incomplete.

Now, if you are not gainsaying the above in any way, a bit about your take on "ALL TRUTH"

1. If as you claim The Holy Spirit will lead believers into "ALL TRUTH" as in everything about everything, how is scope applied to that? What living person can take in and comprehend everything about everything? Why would we need to know everything (about everything)? The Holy Spirit is The Helper, what constitute the limits of this help?

Your claim a witness to OP, did The Holy Spirit affirm OPs office and calling or simply the writings here? Have you been subsequently led into all truth about the OP or, the extent of the writings here? everything about everything right?

2. As to The Holy Spirit giving personal intimations, God is sovereign. Leading, direction, insight etc. can all be given to individuals, but I don't see how that has to be captured as gospel truth or considered canonical?

3. As to God giving someone a "prophecy or revelation" about Nigeria and it coming to pass, I would have to see evidence of that and understand what the purpose of the prophecy or revelation was.

4. To your use of the term "progressive revelation". Again, I do not see what this means in light of scripture. If it is something that directly impacts the gospel as received, I would need to see evidence of this. If it's simply individual intimations or leading, again, that is not for the body and therefore not required to be canonical anyway.

5. About the undocumented early life of The Lord and the unrecorded signs and miracles. Yes these are truth, but again, please evidence anyone that has been led into these truths by the Holy Spirit, what they are and how, if they, in anyway affect gospel truth. And, if at the individual level, claims of such and how they impacted a personal walk.


Regards the framework below. I not sure it's provenance, but I don't see it as a Christian/gospel derived framework. Again, like I said, I will not gainsay your beliefs, but view what is presented in the light of the gospel.

So far example the requirement to be a genius at level 2, a prophet or seer at level 3 amongst other things are simply not scriptural. However, you are free to apply whatever framework you choose. Will you disclose this as not Christian in origin or otherwise corroborate it against scripture?

Is there any unwritten and unknown truth that has been revealed to anyone, anywhere that is not simply a personal intimation but a general revelation that would effect the whole or, a very significant part of the body of Christ, or the gospel itself?

LEVELS OF TRUTH

In life...there are four levels of TRUTH that determines your level of wisdom and intelligence;

1) Written and Known Truth: Can be deciphered by logic. Anybody with an open mind to learn starts from here
2) Unwritten and Known Truth: Can be deciphered by a combination of logic and creativity. Geniuses operate at this level
3) Written and Unknown Truth: These are documented mysteries that can only be deciphered at the right time. Genuine Prophets and Seers operate at this level.
4) Unwritten and Unknown Truth: This can be deciphered by a combination of intuition and total dependence on the Spirit of TRUTH i.e. Master of the Universe and Multiverse. Only Sages operate on the 4th level of TRUTH having passed the previous levels.

Cheers
TV