₦airaland Forum

Maximus85: I'll need a proof. The edition of that Watchtower (date). Here are why we don't agree with Catholic;
1. They seem to honor Mary more than Jesus Christ. Mary is the mother of Jesus, not "mother of God" Luke 1:35

here we go, catholic worship Jesus and honor mary, and how will u agree to d title 'moda of God incarnate' when u dnt blive Jesus is God in d flesh.

2. They claim to worship God and they support war.

aha, so u dont even blive dat d innocent oppressed should defend themselves, right? Becos that will mean war.

3. The Lord's evening meal. The holy communion is observed once in a year. Luke 22:1, 17-20, note in verse 1, "when the passover, was getting near" it shows that its a festival, festivals are not every month or week.

d jews observed a yearly passover, the christian observe a daily 'breakin of bread' act2:46. Atleast dat is what my bible says.
Peace

Ihedinobi: May I request that you join me at this thread, www.nairaland.com/1009653/grace-why-works-let-us#1009653.10 ? I am discussing on it with my brother, Mr Anony, Pastor AIO, and a few others.

im already there, that is a discussion on grace right?
Peace

Ptolomeus: Dear friend:
Thank you for your respectful response, it also speaks highly of you.
I understand that the Catholic Church, was very happy with the killing of Jews, besides trying to assert themselves nazi (or Franco's Spain or Latin American dictatorships).
But I'm talking about the Catholic Church, not Catholics, or Christians! Neither Catholics nor Christians are to blame for what churches do
Believe me, I differentiate very well between christianity & christian.
Do not feel offended you, please ...

here comes the problem, church, d catholic church to be specific is a body and each catholic is a member, if u are saying d Catholic church was happy to kill jews, that mean u are saying a whole body wanted to kill jews, u have to provide proof that it was d official position of d whole church to kill jews. Or atleast a church council or provide d official statement of d pope, if u cant then u cant claim that d whole catholic church wanted to kill jews.
Peace

As usual u misunderstood my word.

Ptolomeus: I regret you call me a "liar". But possibly you found in the offense the only way to defend something that is indefensible.

i didnt say u lied i said ur photo did, and to be clear i didnt mean to offend, i meant to state my position in a respectful manner that is why i refrained from personal attacks.

The Catholic Church was happy with the killing of Jews ... the Vatican parents always hated religious Jews.

provide proof, anytime d church xpressed hatred for jews? What do u mean by 'vatican parents'?

The Catholic Church was collaborator with the Nazis, so it was with the Franco government in Spain (blessed gunpowder and cannons that bombed Guernica!).

provide proof where d vatican supported any nazi injustics

Well, the Catholic Church that you advocate (Mr. liar) also supported the enslavement of Africans and the transatlantic market, that market in which many of their ancestors probably were beaten to death, and treated as animals that had no soul ...

and d catholic church was among d 1st to speak against slave trade, and d mal treatment of slaves. And hey d anglican church also supported slavery, same with lutherians e.t.c yet u are only interested in catholic who own slaves.

That's what you intend to defend ...
Their ancestors writhe in their graves!
shrink from.

i wish to speak d truth and that is what i have done.
Provide proof with dates that show d catholic church supporting d injustice of d nazi, please provide proof with dates. Until u can these are baseless alegations.
Peace unto u.

Enigma: I think we can also add to the mix the passage below from Ephesians 2:

yeah we should. Grace is given and God as created us respond. If after grace is given no good work follows then we are not doing that which God created us to do.
Peace

I can also relate to this, dear buzugee i dont think ur position is different from that of anony except in d 'purification' aspect.

buzugee: you err Chief Anony, you err. The bolded part sounds like something a tree hugging hippy will say. anyway so what is grace ? grace means 'favor'. meaning God is doing us a favor by saving us. why will he be doing us a favor ? simply because no human being is so perfect as to not require favor to be saved. dunno bout you but i have never met a perfect mortal before. without favor not one single soul will be saved. so see 'favor' as the shoe in the door. however in the midst of this favor being shown, there will be people who are more righteous and dedicated than others. some people actually divorce themselves from their worldly lives and become soul winners for christ ( a good example will be paul ). favors will be shown to this kind of people. what is the favor being talked about ? the favor is the reward at the end.

a little problem, it seems u didnt mention d 'favor' God did by calling and converting them.

the reward for these kind of souls is that in the kingdom of christ to be established on earth, they will be the rulers and will have authority over all the nations REVELATION 2 VS 26[b] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations. 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; shattering them like clay pots.'[/b] this is the reward and favor that will be shown to the upright.

however to the ones who still continue in sin and do not grow as children of God, he shall be chastised by fire. the fire of spiritual blindness and repercussions.( galatians 6 vs 7 ) ( lamentations 1 vs 14 ) ( romans 11 vs 7 ). and because of going through the fire he will be saved eventually ( romans 11 vs 25 and 26 ). however when he is saved eventually, he will not recieve the rewards of being the ruling class in the lords kingdom on earth but he will be in the kingdom because he has been purified by fire ( fire is not literal. it means affliction ) although having said that, some will be purified in actual real fire.

do u mean they will be purified by trial before death or do u mean after?
Peace

[quote author=Mr_Anony]13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Cor 3:13-15

Basically, The question presented here is if we are saved by God's grace, why then are our works tested at all. Why are we rewarded for works too. Shouldn't grace just be the common denominator irrespective of works?

My offhanded explanation is that God is madly in love with us so that even after He gives us grace we don't deserve, He rewards us for works on top.
Crazy Crazy Love by a Crazy Crazy God. God is just too much.

(blasphemy alert: please note that 'crazy' here is used in a good way)

Now that I have shown my excitement, let us now seriously use the scripture to ponder over it. I await your insights on the matter.

P/s: The Bible is the final authority on this Issue.[/quote]here i totally agree. This 'guy' so luvs us that he gave us grace upon grace, and when we respond to that grace be rewards us for it. I think augustine meditated on this topic and he said when God rewards our work he is simply crowning his work, because he is rewarding us for his work.
Peace

ijawkid: Paul did distinguish between a physical body and a heavenly body ......

yes he did, but he didnt in any way add d word 'body' when talking about d father.

So u mean to tell me d angels do not have a heavenly body??

what part of d word spirit do u not understand 'immaterial' is one of d xracteristic of a spirit.

And ofcus paul said that d 1st adam had a physical body,but d last adam has a heavenly body....

just to correct u paul didnt say d 2nd adam as a heavenly body, he said d 2nd adam is a 'life giving spirit. But yes i believe that truely christ after his resurrection had a spiritual body.

45 So it is written: “The first
man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last
Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did
not come first, but the natural, and after that
the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust
of the earth; the second man is of heaven.
48 As was the earthly man, so are those who
are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man,
so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And
just as we have borne the image of the earthly
man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the
heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God, nor does the perishable
inherit the imperishable,.....

......

I want u to now reconclie Jesus being the almighty GOD to john 4:24.......

what is there to reconcile?

If Jesus isn't a spirit right now then it means everything is wrong......

If Yahweh is a spirit,holy spirit is a spirit too(if its a person),why shuld Jesus be in d heavens with flesh and bone or whatever physical body he is with??

who said Jesus is in flesh and bones?

Then is he really in heaven??

he is in heaven, and yes even after d final judgement some xtian will b in heaven in a spiritual body.

Jesus culd pass thru wall and culd appear in a locke room to meet his disciples...

that can happen when d physical has been transform by d spiritual. D body is not an hindrance that is why it is a 'spiritual body'.

What else culd that??

I'm asking this pertinent questions.....

And I want d bible to give us answers.......

ha! U know i find it surprising, JW don blive a human has a spirit, yet they belive dat after d general resurrection those 144000 in heaven will be spirits. How do u reconcile those 2 positions? Man has not spirit yet a spirit of some men will b in heaven. Contradiction.
Peace

ijawkid: Paul did distinguish between a physical body and a heavenly body ......

yes he did, but he didnt in any way add d word 'body' when talking about d father.

So u mean to tell me d angels do not have a heavenly body??

what part of d word spirit do u not understand 'immaterial' is one of d xracteristic of a spirit.

And ofcus paul said that d 1st adam had a physical body,but d last adam has a heavenly body....

just to correct u paul didnt say d 2nd adam as a heavenly body, he said d 2nd adam is a 'life giving spirit. But yes i believe that truely christ after his resurrection had a spiritual body.

45 So it is written: “The first
man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last
Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did
not come first, but the natural, and after that
the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust
of the earth; the second man is of heaven.
48 As was the earthly man, so are those who
are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man,
so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And
just as we have borne the image of the earthly
man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the
heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God, nor does the perishable
inherit the imperishable,.....

......

I want u to now reconclie Jesus being the almighty GOD to john 4:24.......

what is there to reconcile?

If Jesus isn't a spirit right now then it means everything is wrong......

If Yahweh is a spirit,holy spirit is a spirit too(if its a person),why shuld Jesus be in d heavens with flesh and bone or whatever physical body he is with??

who said Jesus is in flesh and bones?

Then is he really in heaven??

he is in heaven, and yes even after d final judgement some xtian will b in heaven in a spiritual body.

Jesus culd pass thru wall and culd appear in a locke room to meet his disciples...

that can happen when d physical has been transform by d spiritual. D body is not an hindrance that is why it is a 'spiritual body'.

What else culd that??

I'm asking this pertinent questions.....

And I want d bible to give us answers.......

ha! U know i find it surprising, JW don blive a human has a spirit, yet they belive dat after d general resurrection those 144000 in heaven will be spirits. How do u reconcile those 2 positions? Man has not spirit yet a spirit of some men will b in heaven. Contradiction.
Peace

tintingz: then why are they calling on Mary to pray for them...is that not a form of worshiping her? When Jesus your god said you shud pray in his name...

no intercession is not a form of worship. I know muslims who go to their imam for prayers, protestants wu go to their pastors and say pray for me, d same way catholics go to mary, peter, john, paul and d other saints both on earth and in heaven and ask for intercession. Even paul when he was alive asked d xtians to pray for him, paul also asked that intercession shuld be made for kings and princes and those in authority.
Intercession isnt worship.
Peace

Ihedinobi: The problem here is that for me, the Bible = the Word of God, whereas that equation may not be strictly true for you, I do not know. If we have disagreement as to what to appeal to as final arbiter, then our discussion will be endless and meaningless.

For instance, to interpret that verse, I will compare other parts of the Bible to it. I will make no appeal outside of the Bible. My reason/logic will serve only point out how one part of the Bible upholds the other so that both say a coherent thing, it will not bring in new, independent information to buttress or excuse anything that is in the Bible.

That's why interpreting this verse is quite pointless. If you'll accept my position, I will interpret it and if you have a contrary view, you can show that the Bible supports it. But if you intend to appeal outside the Bible at any point, obviously, we'll never agree.

even d bible appeals to outside authority and d bible certainly tell christians to hold on to tradition. And yes i believe d bible is d word of God even though not every word God spoke is recorded. You can go on with ur explanation, i have no problem discussing using d bible.
Peace

[quote author=Ki-Katanga]Do you speak Hebrew? Or Aramaic? Or perhaps Ancient Greek? No-one knows what the original was written in let alone how it was worded.

As I see it you're believing the words of one set of Jews telling you about what happened in a synagogue... But the book of Matthew isn't certain to have been written by Matthew...

Nigeria needs to abandon religion and focus on education, infrastructure and ending corruption.[/quote]hahaha, did u noticed d way u leaped? From talking about language to infrastructure. Wow, not even all d wealth in d world can truly satisfy man, man will alway ask for more. And hey ask regards d languages, in case u dont know there is something called concordance, u can almost translate d whole bible without understanding or speaking d original language. Besides u hold on to evolution and im very sure u havent see a single 'homo habilis'.
Peace

The OP: Ubenidictus.... I did like to ask you this, If Jesus the christ was raised at a time his people had turned to idol worship, worshiping 360 idol gods in the Temple in jerusalem, What approach do you think he would have adopted to correct such?

u mean hypothetically speaking, right? good question, a little problem, u are asking d wrong person. I dont have a degree in mind reading, i only know what i probably would do which is: pack d idols from d temple becos d build was built and dedicated to God. But we will never know what i would do because i have never been in dat situation and their is hardly a chance dat i would.
Peace

Ptolomeus: ACTION AND OMISSIONS.
The photos speak for themselves.

actually your photo lied. Ur photo shows d pope with his eye covered, pope pius was among d first people to condemn d actions of hitler and he wrote to that effect, he also provided shelter and santuary for jews by ordering religious houses, monanstries and convents open their doors to jews. Many jews hid themselves in convents and monastries and yet ur photo has something against d pope. Well it is a pity.
Peace

The OP: Thank You very much, I Posted this topic to show that both christianity and Islam have prospensity to be violent.

i disagree, when d tenent of christianity are follow there is no propensity for injustice and hitler certainly didnt follow d tenents of xtianity.
Peace

ijawkid: What kind of body did Jesus have b4 his descending to the earth??

he didnt have a body he was a pure spirit

What kinda body do angels have??

non they are spirits

What kinda body does Yahweh have??

Yahweh
is a pure spirit no body.

What kinda body does d holy spirit have??

non

What does a glorified body actually mean??

1 cor 15:51-54

How culd it be that Jesus culd pass thru walls to meet with his apostles in a locked room??

becos his perishable nature put on d imperishable and mortal put on immortalily. Read 1cor 15

tintingz: good but the ques I akd is nt meant for u. . .others shud answer pls

i didnt know u didnt want my response, sorry!
Peace

Marylizzy: I learnt catholics dont worship Mary. She is being Honoured. I believe thats the truth.

yeah, thats true.
Peace

mkmyers45: Please clearly define your alternative in your own words..Its important for further discuss

my alternative to materialism is dualism.
Peace

all4naija: No. Your inordinate rant about what life is has no definite direction rather than to be accepted science has no evidence in defining what life is. If what life is by definition is wrong from my statement then you are the one complicating issue. Your question is that what life is? And the answer by definition is what I presented to you. If your intention is to coerce me to explain it beyond what nature has presented to us then it is no longer what life is but something else which is out of nature and not longer a real world phenomenon.

as much as i dont appreciate ur use of d word 'rant' i would ignore it. Go and ask ur english teacher to teach u how to define, u cant repeat d word u are defining the same definition. If u dont know that i certainly cant help u.
Peace

all4naija: If we are to go by your immaterial soul explanation, the soul thing becomes different from what we know it to be made up to be - of thoughts, moralities, sense of emotions and identity. These can be predicted based on individual reactions to some degree to make choices.I doubt what you are speculating about should be called soul in sense of reality, that is, leaving the spiritual(baseless idea) out of it.

However, mathematics and its formulas have no bearing in this soul thing which is more a non-quantifiable. On the other hand mathematics is an abstract science of number(soul cannot be counted), quantity(which soul doesn't have) and space(soul has no particular area) which you are trying to mix up in this regard. resorting to complication might as well makes one misses the reality of what soul is and also gives wrong definition to it.

Supposedly, the soul we posses based on abilities to interpreted them through the eye of mind(the telescope to transcend - figuratively not necessarily), the brain(where most of these thoughts are made and processed),etc are immaterial only as you said, the eyes and brain wouldn't have be able to process them based on their nature. We cannot see them(but we process them with the aid of the mind) don't mean they are immaterial only.Mathematics is an evidence of abstract activity and the dark matter is another thing that comes to mind we can't see yet exist in space. This proves that we are only limited by our abilities. In fact, it comes to prove the question the reasons why scientists make use of aiding materials to see and interact with these things in nature.

There is no need resorting to complicate things to better have understanding of what is necessary on what soul is all about.

thank for helping me prove that materialism is illogical.
Peace

Dear truth is light it seems u are trying to make me 'feel good' if u were, mission successful.

truthislight: aside this your trinitarian thing i am kind of appreciate your straightforwardness at times.

Why i said so is the fact that in the start of this thread you said that the bible is not you strength since it is not the only book to be considered as God's word.

Now, not every body will be that honest.

That is why i said i am begining to like your being straight.

Keep it up.

hey! Hey! Hey! Slow down d bible is an authority for me but it is not my only authority, it is d word of God so i can say 'it is my strenght'. Besides i think d reason u hate d 'trinity' is because u dont understand it or u can reconcile it with ur other perception of God. Whatever it is i do respect ur opinion even though i may not accept it or may totally reject it. I would also expect u to be straightforward.

peace

and with ur spirit.

The OP: [b]Through subterfuge and concealment many of today's church leaders and faithful christians have camouflaged the christianity of ADOLF HITLER and have attempted to make him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper or a false christian.

Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, hitler expressed his christain support to thr german citizenry and soldiers. In the 1920s, Hitler's German Workers' party( pre Nazi term) adopted a "Programme" with twenty-five points ( The Nazi version of a constitution. In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning their stand in favour of a "positive" christianity.

24. We demand liberty for all religious demnominations in the state, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against morality and moral sense of the german race. The party , as such, stands for POSITIVE CHRISTIANITY. It combats the jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on this principle.

ofcouse hitler was a christian or he pretended to be, i think he was a catholic or claimed to be yet he ignore letters from d pope that condemned his injustice, he arrested and killed priests and monks including st maxmilian, bishops were forced to flee and christian were in prison. So what is d point?
Peace.

okeyxyz: So Adolf Hitler was a christian. What's your point? How does christianity become responsible for Hitler's crimes?

very good questions.
Peace.

MyJoe: @BARRISTERS
I hope to read and comment on your post during the week.

Dear myjoe please end this thread and if u have a case against d JW bring it on another thread, one topic per thread thatway u position wont b misunderstood.
Peace.

It seem d aim of this thread is to find fault, after looking critically, i dont think it is a thread worth reading. If d op really wants to point out something he should take one topic for one thread.
Peace

brainpulse: This answer has shown that you absolutely want to pitch your tent in the camp of liars and you beliieve so much in what your ears want to hear even when they are far from the truth. Listen to this comment


HE SAID "MAY BE"- MEANING HE IS NOT SURE BUT HE SUGGESTED, IN HIS OWN OPINION.

And you went on to accept it. It is unfortunate, you can't learn with this actitude. And you will be fed with lies easily through what you want to hear.

So enjoy yourself bro with the response given to you

u are quite right i gave my opinion, just to be clear have u ever heard of anything like 'd book of mary' 'epistle or letter of mary to ___' 'or gospel accding to mary'?
Peace and love

tintingz: ^^^i accept bcus he didnt argue for agument sake he gave a clear contribution

maybe she wasnt educated or she
considerd herself too humble to speak,
but im very sure that there are no
writtings of mary.
Peace can you guys tell me the role of women in the bible history

u may check d bible urself but i dont think the bible is against women, u will certainly see that important women are mention and there are books dedicated to women like ester.
Peace

truthislight: so you believe he has a bad temper that fresky should bear?

That is the first thing you have said that i believe is a fact and true.

He has a bad temper that was given him by his inspiritor.

temper is not about who inspired u, temper is subjective to ones temperament, it is controlled and hardly extinguished, sometimes it is a very good thing. And arguing religious matters is usually fraustrating. I totally understand.
Peace

all4naija: You said science can't answer the question of 'what is life'? That I think is your assertion and doesn't necessarily reflects reality. Science can define life but life beyond reality is speculative and that is religion destination which it doesn't agree with. Life by simple definition is about living things, their properties and nature encompassing activities. Yes, if you mean origin of life, science is there to speculate and religion is not exempted from the flaws as well.I would rather accept science speculations as close to the truth than the primitive myths coming from religion.

here we go, your definition is so wild, it is like say 'loving is about loving people', nurtrition is about norishing' that is d worst definition posible. I thought everybody knew that a reality cant be define by repeating d same reality. Like say 'talking is about talking'.
Peace.

mkmyers45: and in the case that the two are wrong?

do u have an alternative which u think is what looking into? And do u have poof that defeat my alternative?
Peace

all4naija: Jeez! Plant doesn't posses soul for the simple reason it doesn't have sense of identity. You guys keep looking at Aristotle forgetting the time when they exist limit their reasoning. Please, let us not be irrational about soul because it is immaterial and characterized by the state of the mind.

very true a plant doesnt have a sense of identity and accding to d athiestic explanation calld materialism the difference in thing lies in d different mathematical formular governing the movement of their respective particle, a mathematical formular presupposes that th equation must alway have the same answer but reality shows otherwise man has an ability to reason which is unexplainable by mathematical formula, and even d same man doesnt have alway thesame response to a particular situation. Man does not behave like a program and materialism fails to explain mans behaviour, his conciousness, his feeling and his desires. What is the formula for live? This leaves me with the only rational option, "man has a immeterial soul".
Peace