davidnazee:


You have more sense than that Ugbe boy, but your post once again is full of assumptions. we don't learn about history using assumptions or unfounded claims by one group. And I can see you are only picking pages from Ryder's work that suits your narrative. However Ryder's work was never about advocating and proving an Ife/Benin relationship but instead it was about all the inconsistencies and different narratives about the supposed relationship, and He cast a doubt wether such relationship existed.

When the Portugese wrote about Ogane, they could as well have said Ife or whatever name it was known by at that time. The Portugese in their writings mentioned names of places they visited and also names of places the natives told them existed even if the Portugese never saw those places, yet Ife wasn't mentioned anywhere because it didn't exist or had no significance to Benin.

No chiefs ever told Captain Roupell in 1897 about Ife sending a ruler to Benin. Roupell only wrote about a tale he heard of an Eweka coming to Benin. He never mentioned he came from Ife.

Ryder also mention a research done in 1830 by a European on Benin history. He said the eurpoean was told about a white man who came over the great water being the founder of Benin monarchy. My point and Ryder's point here is that even in 1830 Ife wasn't mentioned.

I am not misquoting Ryder's work, it is you that do not understand the purpose of Ryder's work.

Happy Sunday to you too.

because I am not following your school of thought, go and reread my post and see your initial fuckup, we are not mate. I had rated you more than this, you are giving the gregyboy vibe

It's like you went to Auchi too, I have emboldened the "seem" in my own interpretation in case you are sight-deficient

davidnazee:


Lol.. Please stop confusing yourself further. This your interpretation will only give you f9.
when a researcher uses the phrase "it seems" it means he didn't find any evidence to make a factual conclusion.

And this second statement; "What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."" simply mean that afterall studies he finds no similarities between Edo people and their monarchy against the Yorbuas and their monarchies. No single similarity, nothing for him to suggest indeed there was a relationship.

Go back to English class bro.

I seem to be above many of you in terms of IQ level and comprehension. What I wrote is there for anyone to see. I understand now that I should not be arguing with everyone on nairaland

samuk:
Below is another perspective on Benin history. This seems to have make more sense. I believe 6 to 9 was manipulated in favour of Ife (Osun state) by Egharevba and Co.

FACTS ABOUT PA IDU

1. Pa Idu was born at Ogbe N’Alaka a place that eventually became the homestead of later Ogiso’s and Oba’s of Benin.
2. Pa Idu father was known as Ere (not to be mistaken as Ogiso Ere) he was the founder of Uhunmwundumwun (premier town), a place hundreds of years later Ogiso Ere moved the palace to from Ugbekun. Pa Idu father Ere, is where the ancient word Otamere (evening tide favored Ere) was created from.
3. Pa Idu is generally accepted as the Progenitor of the Benin race and all its descendants because the chroniclers of our remembered history, Ughoron; popularize his name above other native indigenes of which Idu came out from.
4. Pa Idu had three sons: Akka, Efa and Emehi. Efa and Emehi are the fathers of the modern day Benin population,
5. Through legitimacy of ancient ownership the Efa and Emehi families are the owners of Edo land as every other families came from them.
6. [b]Pa Idu died at Uhe(not to be mistaken as Ile-Ife) present day Igala areas of Kogi State and was referred to as Oghene N’Uhe by the earliest Benin natives, he was deified as a Priest King. The Chief priest and scepter bearer of the Oghene N’ Uhe shrine, Azama; followed Akka, Efa and Emehi back to Benin land and a replica of the shrine was built here in Benin land, the descendants of the Azama N’Uhe are the Oloton family of Benin and they are the custodian of the scepter of authority of Pa Idu carried by Azama and bequeathed to the descendants of Efa and Emehi.
7. Earliest Portuguese referred to Oghene N’Uhe(Pa Idu) as “Ogane” the great potentate of the interior.
8. All Ogisos starting from Ere to Oba Ewuare I all went on pilgrimage visit to pay respect to their progenitor at Uhe, a sort of confirmation and spiritual renewal ritual. A ritual also conducted by Ikaladerhan before he became a ruler in Ile-Ife.
9. When the later Oba’s of Benin discovered the complexity of the pilgrimage visit and the decline of the Uhe town they created “Erinmwidu” a replica of Oghene N’ Uhe Shrine and made it Royalty. Hence Erinmwidu is the royal deity of the Benin people.[/b]
10. Idusere, Idusogie, Idugbowa etc. reaffirm the Benin native ownership of Idu ideology hence Idu is Benin, Benin is Idu.

Let the legacies of Pa Idu be remembered by us all his children.
Pa Idu gha to kpere. Ise
Oba gha to kpere. Ise

Written by
Imasuen Amowie Izoduwa

Idu is an Udo thing not a Benin thing, Benin as a city is too recent for the pa Idu story. The earliest of Binis lived in Udo. You cannot be attributing Udo glory to Benin. Check around you, it is common knowledge, everyone greeting La-Idu are from Udo.

It is also common knowledge that the first Ogisos lived in Udo going by Etsako and Urhobo narratives as against some Binis who would want to attribute Udo's glory to Benin. Udo is our oldest town by a mile, it is uncontested. The Eriwmin-Idu shrine in Udo is mightier than the one in Benin. That shows its root.

Efewestern:


In my own enclave, we are expected to pay our homage to AKA (Bini) during a coronation of a new King or High chief (a practice that has long being abandoned).

No one is disputing the Oba's influences. His influences was never in question. We are only asking questions about the root of the word Oba because we can't seem to trace it in the Edoid lexicon.

Even if Oba was exclusively reserved for the emperor of Bini, there could have been reference to the word with the Edoid family. For example, the Urhobos refer to God as Oghene but Bini word for God (Osanobua) is very much traceable in several Urhobo dialects (Osonobrugwe/osolobrugue). This is validity of a word within a family group.

Also, why is it that only non-edoid group call their Kings Oba? Usen and even Iwere. These groups interchangeably call their kings Oba. Why are they comfortable with the Oba word?

That the word "Oba" is not Edo is not what we should contest



These are the only set of persons that go with the Oba title in Edo state

They have something to do with yoruba or come outrightly from it.

Oba of Benin
Oba of Agbede
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

Omo'n'Oba'n'Edo-

It literally translates to mean-

The one that is king over Edo

The etymology of the word Oba is in yoruba and not Edo, they usually tell you that the ba means light but the way it is pronounced suggest otherwise, the pronunciation of the ba is usually relaxed, it's not pronounced in a way to suggest light. There is no strong stress on the "ba"

Also the dating of Usen and Utesse royal line seem to tally with the Oba's dating

The Ososomaye juju that is obviously not Edo has been in the Oba's palace for centuries,

Sango, Orunmila and others, and their presence in Benin city seem to be tied to the Oba's emergence as king in Benin city, it is not coincidence. When you tie these points together, you might have gotten your answer

Also the republican system seems to be the norm for all Edo save for Benin who has an emperor moreso with an "Oba" title.

RedboneSmith:


Wow. Sir, what mischief is this? Why are you re-writing the words of the late A. F. C. Ryder? This intellectual dishonesty is not necessary na.

You took the words that the late historian wrote in his chapter "Benin Kingdom" in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History and you mangled it to say the opposite of what the historian wrote.

Ryder did not write that Benin sending for an alien (Yoruba) ruler was inherently implausible. These are Ryder's exact words: "...we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife. There is nothing inherently implausible in this story". (page 110)

Yes, Ryder did say that next to nothing was know about the Yoruba at that early date, but a full quote illustrates that he was not heading to the conclusion that your mangled quote portrays. Ryder's words in full on page 112 of the same book:" What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

There is no doubt that Professor Ryder was a proponent of the "Out of Yorubaland" theory as regards the current Benin dynasty. There is nothing wrong with you holding a different opinion from this. But to wilfully distort a scholar's words is a hell of a desperate move. Not cool, bro.

"we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife. There is nothing inherently implausible in this story"

For those who seem to have problem with comprehension, this is what he meant

"That we seem to be closer to the truth or we seem to have a more solid ground, if we stand on the tradition that some Benin chiefs went to Ife to get someone from the yoruba country rather than take one of their own as king. That there is nothing impossible in that story."

The second write up by ryder is this

What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

What this second write up means is this

What unique features, attributes, characteristics that this present ruling Oba's line brought from its place of Origin we cannot ascertain or really point out, because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people at this early date.

But it seem strongly that the unique feature or characteristics seem to be the monarchy itself, and that the unique features noticed in the king of Benin vis-a-vis other yoruba kings that is used to argue non-relationship seem to have emerged in the ruling class of Benin after it must have become accustomed in its Edo environment in the latter years.

samuk:


What makes you think or believe the Oba title is yoruba in origin?

Are you aware that it was the Alaafin that was met on ground as the leader of the yoruba people in 1826 and his title was recorded as Alaafin not Oba. I have also pointed out to you that Ibadan didn't adopt the Oba title until 1955. I am sure you are also aware that the Oba of Lagos was formerly known as Eleko.

When you have questions, you seek answers but in your case you pick few information and make up stories fill up any missing gab.

You start with your migration stories but you are not convinced by Benin sending for a complete foreigner, so you decided that Benin must have been conquered.

Tomorrow someone with your mindset will pick up from where your theory stop and build on it by filling any inconsistencies with their own theories. In hundred years from now a fairytales developed into what people wants to believe as history. This is what has been happening to our history since 1897. Luckily for the Benin people whose history was documented for centuries, it easy for us to go back and separate the fairytales from our real history.

You are entitled to believe what you like, I only engaged you and point out your inconsistencies for the benefit of future Edo people that may genuinely be interested in their authentic history, not made up stories and theories that is not earlier than 1897.

it is Obviously now, read my entire last reply to you, I have explained this already with the Okaivbo narrative,

Samuel push your narrative, let me push mine,if you have not quoted my post, I wouldn't have bothered challenging you on yours, "Paul said Paul planteth, Apollo's watereth, it is God that giveth increase" I seem to be more comfortable on this narrative or I see more evidences on this path than the other.

scholes0:


Immediately after Ologbo is the Orhiomwon-Ologbo river complex there is no waterside village after Ologbo. Those other villages I listed are small hamlets west of ologbo not after it on the way to sapele.
Either the Itsekiri water side village has been subsumed into Ologbo itself, or there was a typo.

It must have been subsumed into it then, are you sure it is not part of the communities that make up their five quarters today

samuk:


You are fixated with Yoruba. When you genuinely seek the truth, you must allow the evidence to lead you. You don't have a fixed position in your head and then look for evidence to support your position. You must be flexible in your thought process, not stagnant.

Several Benin people have looked at the Benin/Ife connection story and couldn't reconcile the story with Benin history as documented. The Europeans whose ancestors documented Benin history couldn't also make sense of it.

The yoruba people themselves can't come up with any plausible link between Benin and Ife older than the reign of Oba Eweka the second.

Whilst dismissing the Benin Ife connection, Ryder postulated that if there were any connection between Benin and Yoruba it would have happened way back in history around the Nupe-Igala, Niger Benue confluence.

Have you seen my thread on Pa Idu, I suggest you go back and read it again. The story of Pa idu seems to flow in the same direction with what Ryder postulated.

No one in Benin have linked Pa Idu to Ife In yoruba land. There is a Pa Idu shrine in Benin which the oba worship, there is no Oduduwa or Ife shrine Benin.

There is absolutely nothing concrete on ground apart from word of mouth to link Benin to Ife. Nothing in history linked Benin to Ife but the Europeans did recorded in the 1400s that they were told of Benin pilgrimage site around the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence. There are ancient Benin artefacts that seems to depict Nupe-Igala people.

You are not the only one seeking the truth about Benin/Ife connection. If anyone can provide concrete evidence to back up the connection earlier the reign of Oba Eweka 2, I will begin to take it seriously.

You seem to be doing the same thing you accuse me of

how will you explain the Oba title and the Ososomaye juju, Sango, Orunmila into Benin city. He makes use of these juju/gods and worship them

If you don't call these concrete I don't know what is.

Why does it seem to align alone with those kings whose ancestry seem to be yoruba. I mean the Oba title

In the whole of the entire Edo and Edoid speaking area
The only kings that bear that are related to or come outrightly from Ife

Oba of Agbede
Oba of Benin
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

Why does the dating of the Royal line of Utesse and Usen dynasty align with that of the Oba

scholes0:


Even if we go by the way you described it, it is still at the very least an Itsekiri and Benin community.
The reason why the Ologbo issue is dicey is that there are still some smaller Itsekiri villages in the vicinity that are not Mixed with Binis; Abiala, Ajoki and co.

The Original Ologbo itself has been variously described as an Itsekiri waterside village.
If you want to say Benin are the traditional landowners and the others are 'sojourners/tenants' though, that would be a purely Benin-Itsekiri issue just like what is going on between the Benins and the Olodiama branch of the Ijaws.

South of Benin city was the Sapele-Benin road which passed through Ologbo, and Itsekiri waterside Village situated on a roughly circular open plateau

This was what was written o, they did not describe Ologbo as waterside village o, why you dae shoot yourself for foot, there was comma after Ologbo, that is to say that after Ologbo, you get to Itsekiri waterside village

Why Ologbo seem to be different is this, there are Binis resident there and they have numbers, those other waterside villages that Itsekiris are resident in are not Ologbo, they are Itsekiri waterside village after Ologbo

But for the Ijaws, the Oral account we have with them is that they came to settle in our land, and that land, they settled in, the Binis do not reside there. Gele Gele is an example

scholes0:


We know.
Infact, that was how the originally majority Itsekiri community of Ologbo got their own Enogie.

That's true, Jason Owen Akenzua is the Enogie there, but bro Ologbo is not an Itsekiri community, it is owned naturally by the Binis, Itsekiris came to settle there, it is a community like Warri where there are Itsekiris, Urhobo, Ijaw. Just that in this case, it is the Binis and the Itsekiris

They are not majority, I am aware there are about ten quarters there, the Binis reside in five, Itsekiris reside in the other five

scholes0:


His Paleh died in I think '86. Since then they did not have another Olutese till 2012. After that, he was presented to the Oba as an Enogie.

He is the 35th Olutese on record even after a 26 year break. If we do an average of 25 years reign for each ruler minus the 26 years between 86 and 2012 then you will get an idea how old the stool is.

You see their story of migration and the age of their stool also seem to align with the age or periods, the Obas of Benin left Ife

scholes0:


He is related through Irado and Oranmiyan, a very distant cousin.
Strictly speaking, he is an uncle to the Oba.

you mean the Irado

Please how did he lost the position, was he deposed, I don't know much about Utesse,

scholes0:


The Irado of Utese used to also be in this same class until they gave up that privilege especially with the current Olutese (now enogie), Agidigbi who came in 2012.

Are you sure he is not related to the Oba, his name might be Akenzua or Eweka

scholes0:


OLU AWURE the OBA of USEN is traditionally INDEPENDENT. Silly state politics aside.

These seven kings are not in the class of those that were appointed by the past Oba's

The Oba Himself
Okaivbo of Urhonigbe
Enogie of Ugo
Enogie of Egor
Ogie-amien of Utantan
Iyase of Udo
Olu-awure of Usen

The reasons are this
1. The ages of these towns
2. The ages of these stools, none there is less than 500 years old
3. Their averagely larger size over other villages in Benin
4. Their historical importance to Edo as a race or Bini as a nation
Each of these communities and their stools meet at least 1, 2 or maybe all of the requirements

The rest are majorly "dagbo" the Oba will just cut seven small villages add them together and send his brother. It happened alot during the reign of Oba Akenzua, Eredieuwa and even this present Oba has sent some
The rest are

AutomaticMotors:


Why you dey waste your time lecturing him?

Na me go lecture am, the Oba is FOREIGN I have thrown a challenge to him, I am still waiting for him

scholes0:


Listen to your Urhobo cousins!

https://www.nairaland.com/7532857/ovie-otuo-comrade-oshiomhole-know#120209900

that is what has been the norm, we were a republican people

davidnazee:


Bro the Enogie are dukes. their origin wether during the era of Ogisos or Obas was by appointment to oversee certain districts. No Enogie has ever been independent of Ogiso or Oba, they are always under the absolute ruler, the Ogisos of Igodomigodo and then the Obas of Benin.

Also you can keep deceiving yourself that the Oba is a foreign stool..

Ogisos were never absolute rulers, they were never emperors, they did not conquer any territory, do you have any proof to show that the Ogi-egor was appointed, the Okaevbo of Urhonigbe position is usually the eldest man in the community who evolved to become an Okaevbo or an Enogie, that is still the system in place, the Enogies of these communities were natives of their communities if you have any proof quote for me otherwise stop the misinformation,

The Influence the Ogisos had on other communities was at best spiritual, not this one the Oba will appoint his brothers to head other communities they are not from

The Oba is anything but local

davidnazee:


You are really misinformed on Igodomigodo ways of governance. If you go far before the era of Obas. where will you find more than one person bearing Ogiso title same time? All territories making up Igodomigodo was under one encompassing ruler, an Ogiso.. Other smaller rulers in charge of different territories weren't called Ogiso. Egor and Ogiegor were under Igodomigodo. The Edos have been long civilized and structure their way of life long before the yorubas came into existence.
A Governor is in charge of a state and a President in charge of the whole country. You cannot call a governor a president. Same thing applies to Iyase, Okaevbo, Enogies.. They are not kings but dukes in charge of their territories. The Oba of Benin is the only King for all Bini people and He can remove them from that position if they run afoul against the Palace.

Bro Ogies are not dukes, they are kings of Their territories. His influence on the other communities were soft, it can be be likened to the sort of influence the Okaigiesan of Esanland has over other Esan communities. The other Enogies were independent

The Oba seems a foreign stool

The thing is that many of these Enogie stool were not appointed by the Oba and some of them had existed in Benin before the Emergence of Obas in Benin
E.g the Okaevbo of Urhonigbe
The Enogie of Egor
Ogie-amien of Utantan
etc

davidnazee:


There is nothing like Ogie of Urhonigbe or Ogie of Udo, and these places their original tribal name/title for king is Oba but their rulers are not kings. Okaevbo is not a king, Iyase is not a king, enogies are not kings. There is only one King (Oba) for all of Bini people and he sitting at the capital. All other district rulers like Okaevbo, Iyase, enogies are all under the King (Oba).

That is what should give you a cause for concern that we were republican people like our Other Edo neighbors until this seemingly stranger came around and united us more so with an Oba title(engaging in wars of conquest with other Edo communities around to subdue them. The Ogiso of Igodomigodo was not an encompassing ruler, Even the present Ogiegor to it was independent

The Okaevbo of Urhonigbe is the Ogie of Urhonigbe. An Okaevbo means someone in charge of a people, he is also the Enogie, he is the king of the place

The same with the Iyase of Udo, he is the Ogie of the Place, they are kings of their territories easily put.

samuk:


It's even more pathetic considering the fact that a lot of work have been done by Benin people on this forum over years. He is very adamant and ready to invent stories and assumptions to support his position. I don't understand why anyone would want to undermine over 600 years of his people's history.

I want to be able to sleep at night knowing I have been able to resolve this puzzle in history or at least have a clue as to how it came about

You cannot tell me that Oba is Edo when from the length and breadth of the Edo and Edoid speaking area, the only three kings that seem to bear Oba as title seem to come have something to do with yoruba or come outrightly from it.

Oba of Benin
Oba of Agbede
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

There is everything foreign about the Oba, more so with an "Oba" title

samuk:


Benin goes back into antiquity. I am sure you read the burial of an Oba of Benin that was written about in the 1500s. The writer said the tradition went back to ancient times, meaning Benin already had an ancient civilisation as far back as the 1500s. Did you read the summary of Ryder I just posted, read it. If Benin had any connection with the people that later became yoruba (oyo) it would have been in the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence like Ryder postulated.

Also stop assuming that Oba is yoruba in origin. Every yoruba rulers had their individual titles such as Ewi, Eleko, Ooni, Alaafin, Olu, Baale etc, until very recently.

Or are the Okun yoruba people of the Niger Benue confluence area the answer?


stop repeating this stance, just because the
Ogie of Urhonigbe uses Okaevbo does not mean his Original tribal title for king is not Ogie. it's not what should come out of your mouth as a rebuttal.

Or because the Ogie of Udo has the Iyase as his title does not mean that the title Ogie is not his tribal title for king

davidnazee:


What strange gods are you referring to?
Olokun worship originated in Ughotun, Edo isango worship is different from yoruba sango.
Edo fought and conquered and ruled many parts of Yoruba lands for over 700 years, why didn't you think that was how these gods and Oba title was introduced to them? have you read anywhere that yoruba conquered Edo?

Olokun did not Originate in Ughoton, Ughoton is a yesterday community, we from eastern Bini extraction believe that Olokun worship originate from Urhonigbe. EKABA festival as we practice it today in Iyekorhiowmon was adopted from Urhonigbe


If you observed I never mentioned Olokun and the others I was very specific

Sango, Orunmila and the Ososomaye juju was definitely adopted from yoruba, it is not what we can contest

davidnazee:


The dutch historian A.F.C Ryder points out in his work that… "next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people themselves at this early
date, and the assertion that Benin sent for an alien (yoruba) ruler instead of accepting one of their numbers was inherently implausible”

If nothing is know about Ife in the early year it is because it wasn't an empire, a strong kingdom or was not an organized society. how can they then launch an attack on an already established society or be asked to produce a ruler for a society that was more civilized and established than them?

how do we now explain the Oba title and the strange gods? Can we settle for the fact that the Oba must have been an "Ekue"

davidnazee:


It seems you choose what to believe, anything that suites your thinking is okay to you. There is no general consensus among the Ughoton people that Ekhaladeran died there. Roth quoting it doesn't make it true.

Ekhaladeran did not die in Ughoton. and your assumption that Benin (Igodomigodo) was conquered and a yoruba ruler imposed on them is utter foolishness.

Nazee this seem to be the closest way to the truth, maybe we have to really be serious with this search and get our brothers in those countries of portugal, dutch and others to interprete those early Bini works for us.

davidnazee:


What is the proof Ekhaladeran died at Ughoton? another Yoruba narrative

that is the oral narrative the Ughoton people have, I think someone quoted ling roth in time past on this issue, when I lay my hands on it, I would post

samuk:


Can you see how you are making assumptions to support your narrative. You are no longer convinced that there was an invitation but an attack that defeated the original Benin people, are you really serious right now? Not even the Alaafin and the Ooni went this far.

what do you want me to think, since it is proven Ekaladerhan died at Ughoton, an outright invite of a stranger would not make sense. The situation of a foreign culture (the Oba title already insinuate it is foreign)in another land most times involves blood and war- there is a missing link in history samuel

davidnazee:


You seem confused.. what invitation doesn't make sense to you?
is it the invitation for ife to send someone to rule Benin or the invitation for Ekhalederan's descendant to return home to rule?

The Oba title isn't much of an issue. It could be of Edo origin or Yoruba origin. It could also be that Ekhalederan's descendant decided to introduce the title his father used in ife since that is the culture he was raised in too.

The only thing that doesn't make sense and a foolish assumption is that Benin was attacked by ife/usen or that Benin (an already established and civilized people) will go to ife to ask for a foreigner to come rule them.

I would not tilt to the fact that they invited a stranger, the thing now is that Ekaladerhan seem to have died in Ughoton. That is why I am opining there seem to have been a conquest In history-the missing link. Possibly an attack was orchestrated from Usen after they migrated from Ife and stayed there for a while.

.

AutomaticMotors:


You are a lost Soul!!!!!

I am up for truth and not partisan argument,why is the epicenter of the Edo Civilization using Oba instead of Ogie

If there is anything we can seem to take home is the fact that the Oba seem to be more western than anything else

The Oba title more than not seem intuitively not an Indigenous title, it is not what I can stomach, it is not what I have been able to digest.

To me there seem to have been a launch in attack and maybe the aborigines in Benin city were conquered and the Oba stool and title situated. That invitation does not really make sense to me, there is a missing link in history that is yet not properly explained

It would seem that the people migrated to the Usen area and an attack was launched at the centre to defeat those in charge and certainly take over power. That seem to account for the warlike nature of the ruling dynasty

samuk:


The question you should ask is why did the history of migration started with Oba Eweka 2. Even in Oba Eweka era, Dr Egharevba was silent on Oduduwa's origin. Oba Erediawa only completed the narrative, he went back and gave reason as to why Oranmiyan was sent for... because they believe he was a Benin prince by blood. Even if the story was true, Erediawa completion of the narrative would make more sense because Benin was too established to invite a complete foreigner to rule over her.

There are several Benin oral traditions that revolved around several past Obas, the history of Oba Ewuare 1, Ewuakpe/Iden, Emotan, Imaguero, Esigie/Ida, even till Oba Adolor, the father of Oba Ovonramwen, etc. How come none of these oral traditions mention any migration from Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

Benin history didn't start with Oba Eweka 2 in 1914.

By the time you push the Benin/Ife connection backwards before the reign of Oba Eweka 2, the narrative unravel and fall apart.

What is the meaning of Ovonramwen in yoruba? Ovonramwen is just one reign before Eweka 2.

How come Oba Ovonramwen didn't talked about migration from Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

Why didn't Oba Adolor, the father of Oba Ovonramwen talked about Benin/Ife connection when he was extensively interviewed by Button in 1865.

Why didn't the Alaafin talked about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan when he was extensively interview by Hugh Clapperton in 1824. The Alaafin talked about the oba of Benin in that 1824 interview but as a friend not a brother or children of Oranmiyan as was later claimed in the 1900s.

If you are really interested in the true history of Benin, you should expand your data collection beyond and earlier than 1897.

how do you explain the title Oba, why does it seem to be in consonance with what they have in yorubaland. it seems to be what they can explain clearly. Why is it that it is the Usen people that has claimed relationship with the Oba that seem to have something similar, "Oba-Oluogbe"

A man who migrated from his land to the centre of another land would have largely acculturated let alone one who was maternally Bini.

The Juju-Ososomaye does not seem Bini, Orunmila, Sango, it seems more than not that there was an incursion of these gods and juju into Benin city via the Royal dynasty.

How many of them that claim descent from Ife that are in the center have yoruba names except those ones that still commune with and has an immediate link with Usen. many of these families bear pure and Unadulterated Bini names too

samuk:
AreaFada2 and UGBE634

My position is very simple and I believe others would agree.

People shouldn't be discussing myth and pretend it's history. I am only interested in authentic Benin history. A myth will be called out for what it is unless it can be backed up with concrete evidence.

1. Whoever Oduduwa was/is to various yoruba communities is not my concern and he/she/it seems to have been many things (female deity, male god, leader of yoruba people from the middle east and according to late Ooni someone that climbed down a chain from heaven) depending on which yoruba you speak to.

2. My concern is as it relates to Benin history and when it became part of our history. As far as I can seen it's not earlier than 1896.

3. Like AreaFada2 said, Benin have been home to various groups in Nigeria and what seems to have happened is that the descendants of these various groups and their sympathisers have been trying to rewrite Benin history since 1897 to favour their various groups. The yoruba descendants and sympathisers seems to have done the most damage to Benin history.

4. I once read a rejoinder to a writeup done by one Anioma man called Okpewho on Benin history, it was shocking. It was equally shocking that the rejoinder was written by an Urhobo man who tried to savage Benin history from the said Okpewho and guess what, that same work of Okpewho has been referenced on this forum by one of our Anioma neighbours to support his position.

5. Like I said before and it's worth repeating here. Oduduwa didn't appear in Benin history until after 1896. I am not interested in other people's myth that keep changing.

6. Myths that keep changing is not history.

7. UGBE634 seems to be here to advance the yoruba narrative in expense of the palace narrative of the same story.

8. UGBE634 shouldn't be upset to be called out when himself is saying he doesn't believe the palace position on Oduduwa but he believes the Usen position. What he is doing is select aspect of same palace narrative which he say is not true and mix them up with Usen narrative to draw his own picture, when it suites him, he quotes the Uzama and when it doesn't he says he doesn't believe them. When yoruba people on this forum did same, they were challenged and UGBE634 cannot be allowed to take their place.

9. The desperation to write yoruba into Benin history started after oba Ovonramwen was banished to Calabar in 1897.

10. UGBE634, Benin history didn't start in 1939. I only engaged you because of those that may read you and think your position, which you are entitled to, is the majority positions of Benin on this forum. Your position as far as I can see is a minority position that doesn't represent the majority of Benin on this forum.

11. Late Oba Erediawa and late Ooni had a public disagreement on the personage of Oduduwa. The Usen version which UGBE634 is promoting is the Yoruba version, UGBE634 admitted that Usen is a yoruba town, so UGBE634 cannot be promoting a yoruba version of the same story and claim to be defending Benin interest.

I never said Usen is a Yoruba town, I said technically[/b]meaning it is a yoruba town by [b]ancestry even though they have integrated into Edo.

But how do you explain the fact that Oba Eweka and Akenzua's history of migration was in tandem with what the Usen people have but only changed with Eredieuwa

samuk:


His data collection is limited. Written aspect of Benin history is more than 600 years... 1440s to date. His so called data collection is limited to the 1900s to date, what happened to previous 500 years of Benin history. Even his limited data collection is selective, he refused to fully disclosed the traditions he collected from the Oba palace. The Oba palace narrative says that Oduduwa was a Benin prince, I don't think this is what he is saying here.

Benin history didn't start in 1939, Benin history is not 100 years old, anybody trying to limit Benin history to the 1930s is doing a great disservice to the Benin people, we will not allow people with ulterior motives to undermine our illustrious history.

We don't want some mischievous people 50 years from now quoting 2023 as the beginning of Benin history.

Any of the descendants of the various tribes currently living in Benin can write whatever they like today and someone will be quoting it in 50 years time as if Benin history started in 2023 and future macof will be clapping for them as being intelligent.

The simple reason TAO11 left Benin history alone is because I challenged her to provide evidence of Benin/Ife connection earlier than 1824 and she couldn't. TAO11 was at her best when we allowed her to quote from the historical fairytales years of 1897 to date, but she fizzled out when the debate what expanded beyond the fairytales years and pushed back to just before the last independent Oba of Benin was deposed in 1897.

Today, TAO11 read debates about Benin history quietly.

descendants of some of the Bini families in Benin whose ancestry are foreign. This is how it should be properly put

There is no tribe that did not receive immigrants, the Binis seem to have a way to identify theirs

You know how many Ika and Igbo people that have become Esans some centuries ago? They might not be able to Identify them because All of them greets La-ogiesan. It seem to be affecting the way they pronounce things now. Amendokhian before now is gradually been pronounced Amendochian. Ehikioya is pronounced by Some quarters where there must have been heavy Igbo migration as Ehichioya and so on.