₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
It may be useless. It may be terrible. But that doesn't mean one should deny the fact or run away from it if it is true.

then if we should attempt it...the whole purpose of science and philosophy will be meaningless...in science there are some establish theory you don't query again.... The cell theory, theory of relatively...any attempt to further investigate this theory will be impossible...no need to question it again...it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be true...


Same thing with the topic at hand. As a beliver , the first causer is an establish concept for the believer(mind you, the believer is not working with science alone)...A believer is working with three major importance of knowledge which is our senses, experiences and perception.... All this evidence can be rely own.........


The premises might not be scientifically verifiable, but it is not a problem with logic..

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boringnigerian:
True but they required their parents to exist....

sure, the long explantion will lead to the final explanation. Which is the external cause.. The external cause can not be bound by the same theory...

He must be necessary..

ToZaraWithaZ:
If you're asking that we go ONLY by established scientific fact, then this discussion becomes POINTLESS. Since science can neither prove nor disprove either of our assertions. So, what's the point? No theory has established that the universe has a creator, so that's just YOUR ASSUMPTION as well, and I'm not indulging it. So, let's forget philosophical arguments, since empirical science renders them MEANINGLESS. You just destroyed the credibility or validity of your own arguments with that statement of yours.

As for your ASSUMPTION that the universe requires a process [but, the concensus is that the process is the BIG BANG? How can a "process" be a person? Don't you mean a CREATOR?], I'll be giving you the alternatives to your single intelligent designer.

- A lizard looking alien from another universe probably created our universe during a laboratory experiment

- There's not a single intelligent creator or first cause - rather the universe was created by MANY intelligent beings

- The creator transformed himself into the physical universe

- The creator died after creating the universe

Need more alternatives?

I am walking on two premises, if you are really following me..one on the contegency and the other on probability....

Natural philosophy is the most accepted means of thruth...therefore we can't have a discussion without it. Though I agree it has limitations...


philosophy is the eye glass of natural philosophy... An intelligent natural philosopher must work under the perspective of mainstream philosophy... Meaning scientists need to work with a particular attitude towards or way of regarding something by using sophia(wisdom)

So , lets treat your alternative one by one according to how you list them. Using both natural philosophy and mainstream philosophy...


..1 it can't be a lizard... A lizard isn't intelligent enough to create a universe like ours..

A lizard can not create a being more intelligent than it(human)

2...multi intelligent being can't be possible, it will lead to confusion and disagreement.... One may wish to create a universe where there will be no darkness and another may wish to have a universe with multiple of brightness... This will lead to serious chaos and anarchy....


3 the creator can't transform himself to a physical universe.. Why?

he will be subjected to the same universe theory he created and that will render the transformation useless.. he is external

4 the creator can not die.. Why?


He is not a contingent being.... He is a Necessary things and a neccasry thing cannot either come to be, nor cease to be. Only contingent things, like us, do that...


Your alternative will not be possible..




So should i post you my hypothesis base on the law of probability





1

ToZaraWithaZ:
You demanded for the process of how the physical universe came about....... and I said I DON'T KNOW.

But that the Universe as a whole [the Universe might go beyond the physical universe] is uncreated and eternal - now, that's what I KNOW. Your created God hypothesis contradicts that FACT.

When I say Universe, I'm not refering to the physical universe which started with the big bang...... I'm going beyond that. Refering to the whole of existence itself.

since no theory has establish that the universe might have go beyond this physical universe.... Your point here will be consider assumption..

Let's walk on the premises of the physical universe we all know...that is testable and measurable....




This physical universe require a process and that process is intelligent being...or do you have an alternative...

supersystemsnig:
All of these facts can be proclaimed as subjective. People can't be coerced into accepting our views if they want to speculate and find things out themselves... Don't force it

no bro...I want him to have a rethink....our brain is powerful.... Let me hear from him

ToZaraWithaZ:
I already pointed out the IMPOSSIBILITY of a creator God for the simple reason that it is IMPOSSIBLE to create something [color=darkgreen]that did not exist before[/color] since nothing cannever become something, nor can non-existence become existence. The universe is therefore eternal. EVERYTHING that exists HAS ALWAYS existed in one form or the other. Nothing new can come into existence, nor can anything go out of existence. So, a creator God that creates an entire universe OUT OF NOTHING is impossible.

Plus, for any supreme being to EXIST, he would have to be existing SOMEWHERE! So, who created that domain he was already occupying? And who created whosoever created that domain? And so on.......... we have an infinite regress. So, the only rational answer is that the universe is eternal, and doesn't depend on anything for its existence. There is a sufficient reason for the universe to exist on its own because EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL; nothingness is impossible. So, anything that exists now has existed, and would exist forever. The only thing that occurs is transformation and change. The universe needs no creator. Stop conjuring up an impossible being and making up INVALID hypotheses.

I demand for the process... You said , you don't know. But I know, an i am telling you the process is intelligent being? I expect you to ask me for a proof.


the question you raise had been answer...go through my chart with chemistry on this same thread...


The external cause is not part of the physical universe...therefore he is not bound by the theory of this universe which require everything to have a cause...


First mover don't have a mover...

First cause don't have a causer..


We are not here to have infinite degrees of explanation...

It seems you are also putting the external cause into a box...why are you not doing the same with natural philosophy...?

supersystemsnig:
I disagree with Likewise the physical universe we are is also contingent.... If the universe were an alternative, then there wouldn't be basis for prioritizing and optimizing things.

I will like you to paraphrase this your post..i can't get it.

ToZaraWithaZ:
I don't know. And I'm pretty sure you don't either.

OK , I cast an hypothesis ....it is an imteligent being more Superior than human ..

I cast the hypothesis based on the theory of probability ....


According to encyclopedia Britannica.... It defined probability as thus...

The outcome of a random event cannot be determined before it occurs, but it may be any one of several possible outcomes. The actual outcome is considered to be determined by chance.



so we can work on this premises to acertain the possibility of the inteligent being .... Should we?

johnydon22:
refer to C1

am dealing with the c1 with tozara , you can continue from there.

ScienceWatch:
When you increase your energy, you will be able to type 30 lines. Lol SALUTE !

sorextee, I see the genius in your responses though ! Thats why you were added,

In no particular order, true genius is obvious in these Esteemed Nairalanders ; Butterflyl1on, Analice107, Vaxx, HopefulLandlord,
Ishilove, Sorextee, Seun, Pidgin2, Budaatum and more that I cant recall now.

thanks for the honour... You are really a genius too.. I salute you when you reply insult with jokes and at same time making sense from it....

ToZaraWithaZ:
I don't think you get the point. If nothing CANNOT exist, then it means something has always existed in one form or the other. Even when it looks like "nothing", it MUST be something - because nothing, by definition, is nonexistence, and nonexistence is IMPOSSIBLE, cos if it were possible, we wouldn't exist, and there's never any point where nonexistence could magically transform into existence. So, something couldn't have come from anywhere since it DIDN'T begin to exist. It has ALWAYS BEEN!

[color=darkgreen]Existence = something. And existence can neither be CREATED nor DESTROYED. It can only be TRANSFORMED from one form to another[/color].

So, the physical universe, if it began to exist, must have been the TRANSFORMATION of some form of existence or energy into the Big Bang that created it. It's IMPOSSIBLE for it to have been drawn out of the hat of nothingness by some mysterious cosmic magician.

if I get you logic clear now...the physical universe must have been a product of some energy transformation...which means the transformation itself is a process..

The question here is what causes the process of the transformation of the energy into the big bang that created the process...,?


with this acceptance. Nothing comes from nothing.. Therefore the process that spark the transformations of the energy must have been spark by another process...

So what is the process?





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chemystery:
Where did you get your fact from that the external cause is not same with the universe? Even if this your wishful thought is right, then what if this your external cause have another external cause which exist outside every known and measurable construct of your external cause?

Like I said earlier, it is illogical, insincere and dubious to truncate logical progressions wherever we think suites our existing beliefs or understanding of life without backing such moves with substantial evidence

if you check My op. You will realize I made myself as a contigent... That will require an external cause to exist...which I even demonstrate that my external cause is my parent..

My parent are not me...we are different entity..I require my parent to exist but my parents do not not require me to exist



The same logic is use with the universe... The physical universe has an external cause.. This external cause do not require the universe to exist but the universe require the external cause to exist....


So what is the external cause?

the external cause is the first causer of the physical universe ,therefore it is not bound with the same theory of the universe..


The question once again...why do you put the external cause in a box when you can't put natural philosophy and mainstream philosophy in a box!l

ToZaraWithaZ:
Simple: because NOTHINGNESS is an IMPOSSIBILITY. There is no such thing as NOTHING. If there ever was, there could NEVER have been something, because [color=darkgreen]nothing comes from nothing[/color].

Every form of "nothing" is still nothing but something! Nonexistence is simply an ABSOLUTE IMPOSSIBILITY. If it were possible, we wouldn't be here. Since we exist, then there was never a time when there was NOTHING, and there would never be.

good point...so where those the something came from?

chemystery:
Yes, there must be an external cause, and that external cause should also have an external cause which should also have an external cause which should have an external cause....

With such logic, we will end up plunging into an infinite loop. And it will only be irrational, dubious and insincere for any adherent of such logic to truncate the loop wherever pleases him to be the end and final solution

The external cause is not the same with physical universe, therefore it is not limited to the theory of the physical universe which demand a cause to have a causer .. It is the first causer, therefore every other cause depend on him..


Long chain of infinite explanation is useless, it will render the whole philosophical explanation useless...

Every question you know has a potential of infinite explanation.... You should know..so arguing from that angle is terrible to natural philosophy and mainstream philosophy .


If you can't put natural philosophy and mainstream philosophy in a box ,why are you putting external cause in a box...

Natural philosophy explain that the universe was sparked by the big bang.why don't you question the caused and likewise question the cause of the caused if big bang has a caused...you will realised doing so will make the theory called big bang useless..



As a I said who is the external cause Or what should we call it

THT80:
No one warns me. You either stop quoting me to save the last sliver of dignity you have left, or you invite more schooling of your silly ass.

it’s pointless getting angry with you because your anti-social element as a person said something mean to me on nairaland. My mind is stable..

The door of warning is close. Anything you hear from me now is justify

dalaman:
What's going on here? Vaxx are you accusing him falsely?

no bro, am only letting him know that , the op he posted has a source...and he denied it....deep within him , he knows am correct...


No knowledge is independent... Every information you have is from somewhere... And that is my argument...


Ask him... Is he an authority?

THT80:
It's interesting how you are now playing the victim. I guess you didn't realize the consequence of lying about someone's writing. You asserted that my writing was copied - a deliberate lie to smear me and win a point for your landlord friend. Now that I have bore witness to your shameful act, I have every right to speak to you in whichever way I want, especially if what I am saying about you is the obvious truth.

How dare you talk about maturity? Is it mature to dishonestly smear someone publicly? Is it mature to lie that my post was copied when you knew it wasn't?

Am not gonna give you a trial... Arguing with you is like yelling at a wall. It will get me no where.

Mr man last warning,.. It is enough... Close it and have a good night rest....

butterflyl1on:
His OP was not copied!

ok for the sake of argument...

THT80:
You should appreciate it. Going by your estimated level of intelligence, the gap between yours and mine is wide enough for you to adore me and show gratitude anytime I give you attention.

And please re-read the post you just quoted. I elaborated further for the sake of emphasis.

it seems you want to hear from me...I gave u a free chance to close the chapter but you are not interested.... My mentality is stable enough, so I don't do E war...it is childish

Your response point out three intense character of you........any stable mind should stay away from you...what are the negative character?


You are arrogant and full of yourself

Your purpose here is to win a debate

You level of mind maturity still need enough time to developed...


Before I continue ...close the chapter... I will not insult you but I will make you feel dishonoured......... I warn you

THT80:
Are you sick in the head? How dare you make such a statement? This is exactly the reason why I abandoned this argument - I realised I was in the company of mediocre minded individuals who can't craft a written individual opinion independently and believe everyone has to do the same in order to argue coherently.

Please show me the work I copied from and if you can't, you've not only embarrassed yourself but also illuminated your astounding degree of stupidity, and you are a testimony to how low a person can get just to pull someone down.

thanks for the mention. I appericiate it..

[quote author=johnydon22 post=61399880][/quote]let's deal with p3..existence did not not came from nothing ..it really address the op...

Where did the existence came from?

butterflyl1on:
You are so ignorant it hurts

Vitalism is the philosophical doctrine that life has a quality independent of physical and chemical laws, such as an immaterial soul. It therefore is opposed to naturalism, the belief that only the natural world exists.
Vitalism is also the basis for the modern spiritual belief in a "life force" or energy. This "force" has been roundly rejected by science,

This is the position which supports fundamental Christianity and the new age and you in your ignorance feels it is destroying religion when it clearly supports life exists outside the material world as science knows it.

Why do you think science rejects it?

Science cannot accept what it cannot prove materially and vitalism is an immaterial philosophical position.

Go and borrow some intelligence you clearly have a deficit.

Whatever made you think vitalism was science did you a great disservice. Vitalism is philosophy and philosophy last time I checked is not science and because it isn't scientifically proven is often rejected and seen as simply a personal opinion.

You need help especially since you are now throwing shoes and spoons at me all to get cheap points. Your slogan seems to be "throw anything at him so as to fake intelligence".

Well I know better.

science was known as natural philosophy but it branch off out of the main stream philosophy....therefore science isn't philosophy now.....

butterflyl1on:
I will simply say one thing about all your ignorance here.

Since I have already responded to all the above except your last comment to let me do so very simply.

Synthetic DNA consists of genes that are isolated from the natural world, "captured," and then copied.

You seem not to know what the word CREATE means and you thought synthetic meant actual creation and not a copy or clone.

Synthetic DNA is simply a copy of an existing one. Your ignorance is appalling .

Even your link speaks about copying and tinkering with what already existed and you seem overjoyed?

Why don't they try getting it done from scratch and not based on an already existing blueprint or copying from that which already existed.

This singular ignorance of yours shows that your entire post is a farce

there is a different between synthetic cloning and the original.... Science has a limitation...

I am a contingent (subject to chance)and likewise you... I could easily have failed to exist, in fact ,at one time, I did not exist, and in the future , I will cease existing, that proves I am not necessary...


If so there must have been a cause of my existence , may be my parents who brought me into existence right....

Likewise the physical universe we are is also contingent.... Therefore for the physical world to also be contingent, it need an external cause just like I do..

So who is the external cause.....


Note...this work is dedicated to ancient philosopher called Avicenna... This is a paraphrase copy... I add my own thought.....

graciousolo:
Taa! Stand well bros.

Silly excuse to save face.

Nobody is an island we all strive by borrowing brilliance.

Your religious beliefs/knowledge were borrowed too.

Yes, he is guilty but, was it out of line? No! Definitely not.

Next time come ready...

For the records... You chickened' out. � �

there is nothing bad in copying, but when you do paraphrase.... That make you a better academia...

No research book is written ofhead...


I think the guy excuse is not really geniue...

Butterflyllon check the guy op is even a copy work...so what ground is arguing from....the OP is even a direct work. no single acknowledgment from the original author...


Let's stop this kind of argument......

wirinet:
To an evolutionist like me such creatures does not make evolutionary sense, so I dismissed the whole thing as a hoax. What will a creature living in the depth of the ocean be doing with human features? What is the use of hands, legs and nose in the depth of the oceans? A nose indicate lungs, hands are for grabbing and feet are for walking. Is it cold blooded or warm blooded? How will it hunt fish and other sea creatures? How will it eat and digest its food?
Such a creature cannot survive in the depths of the oceans.

if you are an evolutionist as you claim, then you should welcome possibility.... Whale ancestors walk with their legs but now whales dwell in ocean...

Hippopotamus and pig share a lot of physical similarity..... Yet they are not from the same family.. Hippo is more closer to whale than pig...hippo can both live fine in both water and land ...mermaid may be possible.... The orgarn that support their existence may support amphibians and aquatic life..As an academia , there is nothing like impossibility.....

Hati13:
Truly said
It's makes perfect sense that there are ordinary life and intelligent life in some other space bodies.

I've once seen NASA documentaries where some astronauts were saying that they saw UFOs in outer space.

It's scary, but exciting at the same time.

am so eager for the discovery..... I heard some religious body is putting pressure on NASA not to embark on the development...even to the extent of calling for court action....


The pressure might have slowdown the discovery...

If aliens are discover ,i guess the religious body are scared of this questions....

Will the aliens be Christian or Muslim?

Did Jesus Christ died for their sins as well?

Did the aliens pray facing toward mecca or kabba?

Will religion body accept to call them human? Will they be allowed to practice Christianity or islam

But I also observed it may bring us closer to God. They may have the better understanding of God than us....


Read this article

..http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161215-if-we-made-contact-with-aliens-how-would-religions-react

hopefulLandlord:
I get your point, its just that every time I see him doing charitable works, all I can remember is the dead people, try to imagine what the families of those 115 people would think on reading this thread

you are right bro.... It is not easy losing a love one.....I can't even imagine it..

hopefulLandlord:
if only other Nigerians are allowed to blame boko haram for their church collapsing in order to get away with killing 115 people

stop this sacarstic attitude of yours...I understand you perfectly...he is human and is bound to error just like you and I . i believe he shouldn't be above the law as the constitution demanded...but this is Nigeria for you....


However he is contributing to human developments which make him a man of value .....let respect be given to those who deserve it regardless of their belive or faith....

One thing that really impress me about this man...his is golden heart of charity and a sense of corporate responsibility....


Imagine if we have 20 Nigerians of his kind...poverty will have reduce by now....

More Greace to your elbow sir ..

Hati13:
Most of the things that we usually thought don't exist seems real. How can I sleep normally when I don't know for sure know what is fake or real. There are many concrete evidences that all those exist, but the elites don't want to say "YES IT Does".

I've once been tormented by what Doctors call it "Sleeping Paralyze". They say it's just my brain playing, but who knows.

I'm open minded to anything from now on (even to the existence of God/gods).

Today I watched a documentary on Mermaid and there are evidences that support their existence. They are intelligent like us too.

Why just the elites tell us the endless secrets, so that at least we can know if we are being watched or being laugh at or going to be touched or going to be killed by any paranormal activity.

Some of the paranormal things in the past are now facts, so I'm pretty sure that most of the paranormal activities that we see today could be officially declared real in the future.

I gave up!

my mind is open to welcome possibility.... Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...


There is a branch of science called exobiology and astrophysics....this branch of science deals with the possibility and likely nature of life on other planets or in space.


NASA...the most recognized independent agency of science has welcome a possibility of alien living in our solar system or probably in other planet..some suggestion is even on the moon

There was an announcement by NASA early this year , I think around February... A solar system with earth likely planent discover which means this solar system will suport every chemical substance that will make the planet inhabitable or even habitable...


We are not alone.....if this possibility is discover...it will beyond science.

I was surprise to learn it here that the guy is using a disgusting word on female...


I can't believe it.....when we both have mother and sister...