₦airaland Forum

Okay let me just summarize.

When you get born again and you have the Holy Spirit, who you allow to speak to you regularly (several times a day), the grip of sin on you will start to soften up. It becomes increasingly easier to overcome temptations.
You stop committing sin not because you think it is bad (old testament mindset), but because sinful things become increasingly less attractive to you - that is what it means to be dead to sin. God will no longer condemn you for your mistakes - Romans 8:1-2.
Not that you never commit sin again, but it's no longer your habit and you don't do it deliberately - 1 John 3:9 - you will keep getting better with time.

Most preachers leave the gospel of Jesus and go back to preaching the old testament (rules, laws, commandments), which is mere religion and not spirituality Jesus brought.

Analogy
Imagine your computer (human) is infested with viruses (sin), trojan malware, etc. It behaves abnormally. Even though manages to carry out your instructions (laws), it will keep misbehaving and will be unpredictable (old testament religion). Now, when you reboot (born again) and install antivirus (Holy Spirit), it will scan your computer and remove those viruses. From experience, this could take several days to achieve a completely clean system (gradual freedom from sin). But the antivirus will keep scanning your computer regularly and remove new infections (walking in the spirit), and will keep updating its database to know new viruses (sins unknown) and how to get rid of them (renewal of your mind). This doesn't mean it's 100% clean, but most viruses would be gotten rid of before they do any real damage - you have sinned the moment you consider a sinful act in your mind (it's not until you actually do it) - Matt 6:28, 1 John 3:15. But the Holy Spirit will help you to remove those thoughts.

Pay attention to preachers like Joseph Prince and Abel Damina.

Read Romans 7 and 8 in at least two versions (apart from KJV). Let Amplified be one of those versions.

Okay?

Stop listing sins to avoid. Gets nobody nowhere.

Michael547:
So from your response, you cannot actually know if a person is faking speaking in tongues or not....
So why are you bothered if people say that the speaking in tongues by churches today is fake Since you cannot even know the true one. The bible clearly states in Acts 2:4, 11 that the gift of speaking In tongues made the disciples to speak the native tongues of people that was understandable. And those who spoke in unknown tongues were accompanied by those who can translate.
So if I see someone who is speaking in tongues I don't understand without a translator, would you blame me for saying he is fake since I do not understand what he is saying?

What you believe does not determine what the truth is. Is Acts 2 the only bible reference of speaking in tongues? Are you throwing away Romans, Corinthians and Galatians? You no dey read? Like I said before, go and read up all the references and get the picture. Don't be lazy.

If you see anyone doing it in church, so far they're not speaking to you, mind your business.

Michael547:
So how would you differentiate the real from the fake?
What standard do you use?
How do you know that the "regegegege" and "bragagagaga" is fake?
Should there not be a church standard to determine which person's unknown tongues is true and fake?

Are you saying that the person who has the gift of speaking In tongues can be unable to speak in the native tongues of people?

Those are examples. I said "likely fake, in my opinion". I may be wrong. But my personal experience is much different.
Discerning of spirits is a spiritual gift not all of us would have. I really wouldn't care if it's real or fake. Speaking in tongues doesn't mean you're praying better or more gifted. But if the person is trying to minister with it via interpretation, then "by their fruits you shall know them".
I'm not a pastor, so I can't comment on whether to have church standards or not.
I've answered your last question with 3 scriptural references in previous comments - YES. And I also challenged you to prove otherwise with at least 2 references. But I don't want us to go on circles.

Michael547:
All what you've said is the reason why Paul said that anyone who speak in unknown tongues should translate or have a translator.......Paul said that speaking of unknown tongues should be done turn by turn in the church.....if there was no translator, a person who can only speak in unknown tongues should be 'silent' and speak to himself and God. No one is Obligated to believe that one has the gift of speaking In tongues if he cannot understand what the person is saying. The person could actually be faking it.

This is the point I believe the OP was trying to make. I totally agree. But to say the gift doesn't exist today, or that the two must go together is what I'm disputing here - you failed to establish that scripturally as well.
In my first comment that you quoted, I was affirming the existence of the gift, with a personal example. And I also mentioned I never use it unless I'm praying all alone (if prompted).
I also indicated that many of what you hear in church are likely fake (my opinion) - random "regegegege" and "bragagagaga". But I've also heard ones that are genuine, which sound (to me) like well articulated languages/sentences if you listen closely, even if you don't know the language. And that is also my personal testimony, which has full scriptural foundation.

So do people still speak in tongues genuinely? YES
Do (many) people fake it? YES
Must you speak in tongues? NO
Should people do it in church without interpretation? NO.
This is the summary of everything I've said.

Michael547:
Anyone who has the gift of speaking In tongues displays both manifestation.

Okay. Give at least two places in the scriptures that establish that as the only possibility - that they must always go together.
Second, if someone speaks Russian, Zulu, Aramic or Sumerian beside you, how do you recognize the language since you don't understand it yourself - all you will hear is gibberish and syllabic sounds.
Third, from a respectable preacher Kenneth Hagin, he never knew he actually spoke in another human language until one person in the congregation met him later and testified he understood every word Hagin said. So you can speak another language without realising it.

Emusan:
What you're missing is in the very verse you quoted yourself earlier.

AMP: And they were all filled [that is, diffused throughout their being] with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues (different languages), as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out [clearly and appropriately]. Acts 2:4

@underlined clearly says "...as the Spirit was GIVING them the ABILITY to speak out.." which means, speaking in tongue is what Holy Spirit does by Himself and whatever the Spirit wants you to proclaim is what you will sound out.

Furthermore, Apostle Paul clearly says their is an Angelic languages as which means a languages that is not spoken by any tribe on earth.

You just said exactly what I've been saying since. Speaking in other languages and speaking in unknown language. Two separate manifestations of speaking in tongues.
These other guys have been insisting it is only other human languages.

Michael547:
Oga you claimed that no one preached with the gift of speaking In tongues In the native tongues of people.
I have shown you from the Bible that the claim is a lie. The disciples of Jesus actually declared the wondrous works of God to people in their native tongues by speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit. If you claim to have the gift of speaking In tongues. You must be Able to do what the disciples did because Jesus commanded all Christians to preach.

Read your Bible.
Obviously you're deliberately picking out one thing you saw and purposefully ignored other biblical references just to justify your dogmatic belief. And when I showed you the verses you couldn't say anything else with scriptural backing, apart from trying to bully your way to affirm a flawed belief on a single scripture.
Dig out everywhere speaking in tongues is mentioned in the new testament and tell us how they all imply it is "strictly speaking in other human languages" which you're erroneously inferring. When you do that correctly, I can comment further.

You can't invalidate my comments by simply throwing away every bible verse I quoted. You must be able to explain them to support your point.
Why are you talking like APC people?

Michael547:
Are you saying declaring the wonderful works of God was not preaching?
Was the tongues that the disciples spoke at that time not the native tongues of people?

Please highlight the details I have missed.

Seems it's our understanding of the English that is different.
Either way that doesn't change anything else in the comment you quoted, which answers your second question with scriptural references.

Michael547:
Below in the screenshot is Acts 2:4, 11. What were the wonderful works of God that the disciples were speaking in people's tongues by the Holy Spirit?

They spoke other languages - they did not "preach" as you claimed.
Besides, NOT EVERY manifestation of the Spirit is in Acts 2. There are others that didn't happen right there but we learned about them later from scriptures - the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), other spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12:8-10.
You need to look at every scriptural references to this subject matter. Study the Bible to well to see the big picture, evaluate what other renowned authors have written - they might point your attention to details you may have missed.

I suggest you read books by Kenneth Hagin to have a wider view.

Many Christians spend a lot more time trying to know sin than trying to know Jesus himself.
It's counterproductive. Due to flawed biblical teachings for centuries.

The more you know Jesus the less the hold of sin over you. 1 John 3:9 - if you are born of God, you will (gradually) lose your ability to continue in sin. Not because you know sin and you're consciously avoiding it, but because the Spirit makes you to be unattracted to sin and temptations.

Medicine is only used when the benefits significantly outweighs the potential risks and side effects. And no medicine is safe for long term use.
Even a herbalist follow that rule.

Smoking anything increases your risk of many cancers.
Marijuana use is very addictive.
Marijuana can make you make bad choices and do terrible things.
YOU WILL BE HARMING YOURSELF more than you're helping your body when you use it. Deliberate self harm is sin.

If indeed chronic pain is your problem, you'd consider other safe and legit alternatives - including herbs. And more importantly, you'd find the cause of the pain itself and treat it. instead of just symptoms relief.

Instead of calling out leaders for bad job, Nigerians will creatively find a personal creative solution to any problem, even if it's a weird one. That is why politicians don't care about consequences of bad governance - there's hardly any!

Michael547:
Since you have the gift of speaking In tongues, do you also practice what is recorded in the account of Acts 2:4, 11 by preaching to unbelievers in their native tongues that you've never learnt before?

Are you asking this question because you want to learn about the topic or because you want to discredit speaking in tongues since you don't believe it??
The latter seems to be your reason.
If you have indeed read and understood the Acts 2 you're quoting, and other scriptures on the subject, you'll know that NO ONE ever preached to unbelievers in their native tongues. Go and read it again and correct your question if there still is.

LordReed:
Dude don't kid yourself, you aren't speaking a language when speak in tongues. You are simply verbalizing syllablalistic sounds so it sounds like you saying words.

Sorry my message is for those who believe speaking in tongues is real and need more understanding.

armchairscholar:
What you describe sounds like nonsense as well

Your opinion. But it doesn't change the truth.
It doesn't make you a better Christian either to speak in (unknown) tongues. It gives you more responsibility in the place of prayer.
What's important is that the fruits of the spirit are manifested in your everyday life.

But you should know your God and recognize His gifts when you encounter them.

I don't blame you. I blame the churches.

MaxInDHouse:
He is a Muslim and he wanted to speak against Jesus and the Bible so after all his reasoning was rendered unwise he asked me what church has such a powerful reasoning that nullify all his arguments against the Bible and i told him i'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Ever since then he has been trailing me from thread to thread posting lies our enemies are posting on the internet. He felt really frustrated and sad when i told him it's from Islam i got converted to one of Jehovah's Witnesses!

I was tempted to ask if he was part of Christ's body. But I just held back.
Really the problem with this nairaland is, you think you're speaking with a fellow believer in these kinds of threads, not knowing it's just one troublemaker who wants to rubbish everything.

Geovanni412:
Speaking in tongues v speaking in unknown tongues
What is the difference between the message in Acts 2:1-10 and 1 Corinthians 14:1-5?
Also, how do we tell if the interpretation of the tongue is not a planned work by the minister?

Not every spiritual manifestion happened in Acts 2, which was speaking in other languages. That was just the beginning. For emphasis, no one mentioned the fruits of the spirit there too. Paul was addressing Corinthians at a later time when many other manifestations of spirit had been witnessed, including unknown tongues.
I myself (almost) never speak in tongues except I'm praying alone.

For interpretation in church, that's a different matter.
It's prone to manipulations. "By their fruits you shall know them". Is the message glorifying God or empowering the pastor?
The only way to know the true spirit is to have the true spirit in you. A true message will not conflict with the message the Holy Spirit is telling you personally.

DoWhatThouWilt:
The demon responsible for speaking in tongues today is also responsible for your organisation raping and abusing little kids.

I'm not JW. But this is bad to say the actions of one individual represents the organisation. Don't "Catholic" priests do? Don't RCCG or Winners pastors get into such scandals?
Let's debate with moderation please.

Oh.

There's speaking in other tongues (other languages - maybe Igbo or Russian). There's speaking in unknown tongues - that no one understands except you have the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Most of what you hear, in my opinion, is nonsense.

But I myself did not believe speaking in tongues was genuine until I got the gift myself. And what I can tell you - it's not repeating a particular phrase every time like you hear most people do. I might not repeat any phrase if I continue for an hour. In fact, I could tell that the "language" varies on different occasions. But it might also be same. And the "tongues" sound different each time the prayer subject changes in my heart.
Whenever I do, there's this great peace I experience for the rest of the day.

PS
I only do this privately when I'm praying alone. Because it's between me and God.

No one, who (claimed to) have seen heaven can adequately describe it with earthly words.

But singing forever non stop?
Well, that's up for debate. Even theologians cannot say with 100% assurance what exactly would happen.

What I always tell anybody (Christian), "follow the goodness that Jesus taught you with all your strength." Whatever happens at the end of time, I trust Him to be there for you.

Versals:
As long as they've denied it, then it's true

These matters are not for the half-brained.

Youareforgiven:
The context of this verse is praying for things. ...

mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

KJV Bible

I've shown you how you contradicted yourself in Luke 11. Yet you remained dogmatic.

Someone mentioned earlier that this is kobojunkie:

Jackanda1:
I can bet my last card that this is Kobojunkie the confused soul.

Now I'm having a strong feeling he's right.

You repeat the same points even when you're shown scriptures that prove you wrong. You just believe certain (erroneous) things and lack the ability to analyse a discuss properly - you wrongly imply people's thoughts. You exhibit obvious misunderstanding of the scriptures.
Every characteristic I've seen about kobojunkie.
I'm not insulting you please, but someone needs to tell you truth. I even had to ask you at some point if you're a Christian (true believer).

If you can't read Shakespeare's books and understand clearly, KJV Bible is not for you. Even some senior pastors avoid it.
First, find a Bible version with easier English, or get one in your mother's tongue (modern translation, not old). So you can see the true meanings of what you're reading.
I pray God helps you.

Youareforgiven:
I am a son of God. Jesus didn't say we should ask for Holy Spirit.
✝ Matthew 7:11

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

KJV Bible
✝ Luke 11:13

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

KJV Bible
This two verses are saying the same thing. The Holy Spirit is the source of all the goodies of God. The Holy Spirit can give you good things, while not dwelling in you. The bone of contention is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh who believe. The qualification is believing only. Your asking cannot leave the earth, talk less of God hearing and answering.
✝ Ephesians 1:13

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Your contradiction is in bold.
If you ask you will receive (Like 11:13). The apostles, first people to receive the Holy Spirit were in constant prayers for several days (Acts 1-2), they kept asking as Jesus has taught them. Read that Luke 11, but start from verse 5 through to 13. You'll see that the original context Jesus gave on "ask and you shall be given" was about the Holy Ghost.
I didn't say that is the only way to receive the Holy Spirit, but A VALID WAY if you haven't received yet as a Christian. Some received by hearing (Acts 10:44), some by laying of hands (Acts 8;17).


I strongly suggest you keep an easier bible version with you while you study. KJV is tricky for most people.

Youareforgiven:
There is a principle. Asking God what He has shown you how to receive is ignorance to me.

Are you even a Christian? Sorry I just have to ask.

Mind you I quoted where Jesus himself said the Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. So if you're saying it's ignorance to ask, you're contradicting what Jesus said.

How then do you receive? What principle is there? Back it up with scriptures.
I'm only replying because I want us to clear the air, for the sake of people viewing this thread who may have struggled on this subject matter.

Youareforgiven:
The bone of contention here is not prophesying or speaking in tongues or any outward miracle. You are the one making it about it. My point is that those that have the Holy Spirit knows they have Him and those who don't know they have Him, does not have Him.

Whatever you believe.
But for those doubting, Jesus said your child won't ask you for fish and you'd give snake. Your child won't ask for egg and you'd give them scorpion. How much more will our dear Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him. (Luke 11:11) If you're a Christian and you ask God for the Holy Spirit, You will receive. Believe in your heart that God has given you. You might not feel anything or hear any voice, or speak in tongues, or see visions. The manifestions will come in sooner or later, when you learn to quiet your mind and pay attention to your heart.

Youareforgiven:
You sure know that Apostle Paul knows, He has the Holy Spirit.

Though he received his sight back, the Bible did not state that he knew at that moment, or there were any signs. Getting healed is a different thing. The only thing we're sure of is that, several days after that, he knew.

CoolJason:
Thanks for the contribution...i very much appreciate it but its just that this was a major topic of contention in our Tuesday bible study at one of the parishes of The Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG) here in South Africa and we never really arrived at a concrete conclusion due to time constraint and i'm also sure so many people seek answers to this question worldwide.

Permit me to expand my point then.

How did we become slaves to sin?
Because Adam and Eve ate the tree of knowledge, knowing some things are good (obedience) and some things are bad (sin).
Now Paul said in Romans 7:7 that he became slave to sin through the knowledge of the law - knowing some things are good (obedience) and some things are bad (sin).
That is why "the law made nothing perfect" (Hebrews 7:19). It gives you the knowledge of sin. Therefore the more you know about sin, the more you become its slave, because the flesh is always attracted to sin.

Ironically, what we usually spend most of our learning time on in church is trying to know more about sin, instead of more about Jesus (who took away our sins), and the Holy Spirit (who drives us towards righteousness). This is why majority of us are far from perfection. Our priorities are misplaced.
We have no business discussing sin - it's like trying to ressurect the old man (nature) that died with Jesus.
But we should focus on how to recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit and walk our daily lives with Him, our lives would be much better.

jaephoenix:
Personally, I don't know the beginning. But I know evolution is facts because the evidence is real. I think Big Bang seems correct but it still doesn't tell us the beginning of the universe.
So if you say everything was created and it was your god, then who made your god? Surely everything should have a creator?
And why do you think irs your specific god?

First I only mentioned God and big bang. I didn't say my God.
Since you tend towards big bang and evolution, I would base my further responses on that assumption.

Wilgrea7:
Thanks for the input.

A person does not need to accept one or the other. When it comes to many things, it's okay to say "i don't know".

Just because I don't know something, doesn't mean i have to accept a belief about it. I can say i don't know, and that's fine.

My rejection of a god/gods does not come from my belief in an alternate theory or story. It comes from lack of evidence of said god/gods.

If something lacks credible evidence, I'm not inclined to believe it, regardless of whether or not there's an alternative theory.

Also i feel like i should point out that the big bang theory does not state that the universe randomly came from nothing. That's also another grave misconception about it.

Okay well said. Your opinion. Everyone should respect that.