If we accept Jesus is 'Mighty' not 'Almighty' (I assume this is what you are saying) what does the name Mighty God mean to you? I'll leave you to respond to Enigma's reference from Revelations about whether Jesus is Almighty or not.

frosbel:
Who initiated the plan of salvation, in other words who sent his Son to die for your sins

And if it is God , what do we call him ?

You guys need to slow down .

You didn't answer the question - is Jesus The Saviour or not? I am not talking about 'initiating a plan' here. Let's keep it strictly biblical. If Jesus is The Saviour, how do we reconcile that with Jehovah's statement in Isaiah?

What is wrong with references , you think those copy cats Enigma and co do not refer to other articles to derive precious information

Nothing wrong with references bro, but I want to have a discussion with you, not the author of some other article. Articles often lead to diversion from the matter at hand.

How is Jesus a 'god in his own right'? What do you mean by this and how many other 'gods' are there?

frosbel: I throw open a challenge to all Nairaland Trinitarians .

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus Christ is referred to as ALMIGHTY ?

Did you not read this just above your post?

Revelation 1:8 NASB

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

I will follow this post with another ---- very deliberately.

debosky: If we accept Jesus is 'Mighty' not 'Almighty' (I assume this is what you are saying) what does the name Mighty God mean to you?

Mighty translated using strongs is described in the bible as follows :

1368 gibbowr ghib-bore' or (shortened) gibbor {ghib-bore'}; intensive from the same as 1397; powerful; by implication, warrior, tyrant:-- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.


For example Nimord was a mighty hunter before the Lord.


New International Version (©1984)
He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD." - Genesis 10:9


or

New Living Translation (©2007)
Oh, how the mighty heroes have fallen! Stripped of their weapons, they lie dead - 2 Samuel 1:27

You didn't answer the question - is Jesus The Saviour or not? I am not talking about 'initiating a plan' here. Let's keep it strictly biblical. If Jesus is The Saviour, how do we reconcile that with Jehovah's statement in Isaiah?

Jesus Christ is our Saviour and so is GOD.

Nothing wrong with references bro, but I want to have a discussion with you, not the author of some other article. Articles often lead to diversion from the matter at hand.

I normally churn our articles that hold on to my position when I am tired of writing.

How is Jesus a 'god in his own right'? What do you mean by this and how many other 'gods' are there?

New International Version (©1984)
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'- Psalm 82:6

"Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'" - John 10:34

[quote author=Enigma]

Did you not read this just above your post?

Revelation 1:8 NASB

Oh common Enigma, this clearly says God , no ?


Revelation 1:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, t[b]he Almighty[/b].”



Can you also help us with v6

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

1. To him who loved us - Jesus Christ
2. made us...to serve his GOD ( i.e the GOD of Jesus Christ )


Surely this is plain language.

Because I anticipate how some of Frosbel's friends will interprete that Revelation 1:8, I say to frosbel and also to others following in good faith, why not read a little further in that same Revelation 1?

Then you will see the following

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; [size=14pt]and I was dead[/size], and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19“Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. 20“As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

debosky: If we accept Jesus is 'Mighty' not 'Almighty' (I assume this is what you are saying) what does the name Mighty God mean to you?



You didn't answer the question - is Jesus The Saviour or not? I am not talking about 'initiating a plan' here. Let's keep it strictly biblical. If Jesus is The Saviour, how do we reconcile that with Jehovah's statement in Isaiah?



Nothing wrong with references bro, but I want to have a discussion with you, not the author of some other article. Articles often lead to diversion from the matter at hand.

How is Jesus a 'god in his own right'? What do you mean by this and how many other 'gods' are there?

Tutoring u guys is kinda hard...

Ok let me make it simple...

Jesus(saviour) was used by Jah to reconcile us to God(Jah).......

But Yahweh is the saviour of Christ....

Which ever way u wanna look @ it,Yahweh is the supreme saviour....

Yahweh was the one who made the provision for Jesus to come die a sacrificial death...

Even though Jesus did die and become our saviour,Yahweh becomes the saviour of all saviours for the fact that he provided the ransom and also he(Yahweh) is Jesus's saviour....

If not for Yahweh,Jesus would have remained in the grave......Jesus's saviour is Yahweh....

And so Yahweh is the over all saviour....

So bro the title Saviour is no problem......

U know we've dealt with titles....

This one shuldnt be hard for you.....


I still don't know why all trinitarians run away from one title that was attached to Jesus....

""SERVANT""

U guys barely deliberate on the Fact that Jesus was and is a servant of Yahweh just as you and me are.....

You guys are all over titles like God,Lord,king of kings(which was debunked)....

But never are u guys on Jesus being called Yahwehs ""SERVANT"" ,""APOSTLE""


Please try and look into that

frosbel:
Jesus Christ is our Saviour and so is GOD.

Amen!

Which GOD are you referring to here? is it the same as 'a god' which you referred to earlier?

Enigma: Because I anticipate how some of Frosbel's friends will interprete that Revelation 1:8, I say to frosbel and also to others following in good faith, why not read a little further in that same Revelation 1?

Then you will see the following

Obviously this is Jesus Christ, simples !!

debosky:

Amen!

Which GOD are you referring to here? is it the same as 'a god' which you referred to earlier?

God as in GOD and Jesus Christ as a god.

Enigma: Because I anticipate how some of Frosbel's friends will interprete that Revelation 1:8, I say to frosbel and also to others following in good faith, why not read a little further in that same Revelation 1?

Then you will see the following

Why didn't u read from verses 1.....??


Besides after Jesus said I am the 1st and the last ,he explained what he meant....he said he was the 1st from the dead......

Revelations 1:8 is directed to Yahweh who from verse 1 and 5 $ 6 was and is Jesus's God and Father....

Didn't u read that??

Open ya eyes and read it well....

Jesus said he was dead,but he is now alive...

Does God die??

Can God die??

We've been asking this question but no answer from you and your supporters......

Revelation 1:8 is directed to Yahweh......

ijawkid:

Why didn't u read from verses 1.....??


Besides after Jesus said I am the 1st and the last ,he explained what he meant....he said he was the 1st from the dead......

Revelations 1:8 is directed to Yahweh who from verse 1 and 5 $ 6 was and is Jesus's God and Father....

Didn't u read that??

Open ya eyes and read it well....

Jesus said he was dead,but he is now alive...

Does God die??

Can God die??

We've been asking this question but no answer from you and your supporters......

Revelation 1:8 is directed to Yahweh......

These guys are too intelligent to grasp simply logic , jare.

ijawkid:

Tutoring u guys is kinda hard...

Ok let me make it simple...

Jesus(saviour) was used by Jah to reconcile us to God(Jah).......

But Yahweh is the saviour of Christ....

Which ever way u wanna look @ it,Yahweh is the supreme saviour....

Yahweh was the one who made the provision for Jesus to come die a sacrificial death...

Even though Jesus did die and become our saviour,Yahweh becomes the saviour of all saviours for the fact that he provided the ransom and also he(Yahweh) is Jesus's saviour....

If not for Yahweh,Jesus would have remained in the grave......Jesus's saviour is Yahweh....

And so Yahweh is the over all saviour....

So bro the title Saviour is no problem......

U know we've dealt with titles....

This one shuldnt be hard for you.....

I'm sorry - the bible doesn't call God the saviour of all saviours - that is your own creation. Like I said, I am here to discuss biblical accounts and not opinions.

This is what Jesus said about his life, in John 10:18

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

So again I ask you, where in the bible is Yahweh called the 'saviour of all saviours'?

frosbel:


Obviously this is Jesus Christ, simples !!

Verse 8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Verses 17-20

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; [size=14pt]and I was dead[/size], and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19“Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. 20“As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Questions:

1. Is the Person speaking in verse 8 different from the Person speaking in verses 17-20?

2. Is "alpha and omega" in verse 8 different from "first and last" in verses 17-20?

ijawkid:
Jesus said he was dead,but he is now alive...

Does God die??

Can God die??

We've been asking this question but no answer from you and your supporters......

Revelation 1:8 is directed to Yahweh......

But Jesus is God according to frosbel - can you guys tie together your arguments?

frosbel:

God as in GOD and Jesus Christ as a god.

You're flip flopping here bro - your post said Jesus is GOD did it not? Are you saying that was another mistake?

debosky:

I'm sorry - the bible doesn't call God the saviour of all saviours - that is your own creation. Like I said, I am here to discuss biblical accounts and not opinions.

This is what Jesus said about his life, in John 10:18

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

So again I ask you, where in the bible is Yahweh called the 'saviour of all saviours'?

Why can you not simply accept that both God and his Son were partners in the salvation of mankind and so both merit the name saviour.

We can at least back this with scripture unlike the Trinity which is neither mentioned explicitly or implicitly in any nook or corner of the bible.

It has to be forced into scripture to make any sense and even then it still sounds like nonsense.

Enigma:
Questions:

1. Is the Person speaking in verse 8 different from the Person speaking in verses 17-20?

2. Is "alpha and omega" in verse 8 different from "first and last" in verses 17-20?

A very good question.

Besides after Jesus said I am the 1st and the last ,he explained what he meant....he said he was the 1st from the dead......

What about the 'last' bit? Did he explain that too? Was he last from the dead too?

frosbel:

Why can you not simply accept that both God and his Son were partners in the salvation of mankind and so both merit the name saviour.

But Jehovah explicitly says there is no other saviour - so it's either Jesus is ONE with God, or Jesus isn't the saviour. God did not say he is a 'partner in salvation' with anyone in the scripture!

We can at least back this with scripture unlike the Trinity which is neither mentioned explicitly or implicitly in any nook or corner of the bible.

Bro - I am not arguing 'trinity' with you - I came into this discourse regarding your comments on Jesus.

[quote author=debosky]

But Jesus is God according to frosbel - can you guys tie together your arguments?

Jesus is god if that's what you want to hear , he is not GOD as in Jehovah.

You're flip flopping here bro - your post said Jesus is GOD did it not? Are you saying that was another mistake?

Indeed he is god in his own right and by implication, if we spell it in caps GOD , good by me , if not , fine. My point has always been consistently stated over the past week that Lord Jesus is not Almighty GOD or Jehovah.

I am perplexed as to why you are attempting to score a cheap point by twisting my words, just like you guys are apt to do with scripture.

You have to ask what the meaning is behind the word I quoted , and then this can be revealed to you with precision. No point applying guess work and assuming things, if you do , you will always get things wrong.

debosky:

A very good question.



What about the 'last' bit? Did he explain that too? Was he last from the dead too?

Your usual dribbling yourself in a pretence to make a logical point.

[quote author=debosky]

But Jehovah explicitly says there is no other saviour - so it's either Jesus is ONE with God, or Jesus isn't the saviour. God did not say he is a 'partner in salvation' with anyone in the scripture!

Who was the initiator of the salvation of mankind ?

frosbel:
Jesus is god if that's what you want to hear , he is not GOD as in Jehovah.

But what kind of 'god' is he then? How many other 'gods' are there?

Indeed he is god in his own right and by implication, if we spell it in caps GOD , good by me , if not , fine. My point has always been consistently stated over the past week that Lord Jesus is not Almighty GOD or Jehovah.

If you state what he is not, then what is he? What does 'god in his own right' mean? You have failed to answer this question.

I am perplexed as to why you are attempting to score a cheap point by twisting my words, just like you guys are apt to do with scripture.

You have to ask what the meaning is behind the word I quoted , and then this can be revealed to you with precision. No point applying guess work and assuming things, if you do , you will always get things wrong.

I assume nothing - which is why I keep quoting you and asking for clarifications. Unfortunately I do not know what you are thinking, so I can only read from your words. If you use almighty instead of mighty, that is not twisting of anything, merely an error on your part.

I have not attempted to score any cheap points, I have only attempted to achieve clarity in my understanding of what you are saying.

frosbel: Who was the initiator of the salvation of mankind ?

Let's not play with words - if the bible tells us 'who the initiator of salvation' is, please share the scripture.

The bible says Jehovah is the only saviour, the bible also says Jesus is the saviour.

frosbel: Jesus is god if that's what you want to hear , he is not GOD as in Jehovah.


Indeed he is god in his own right and by implication, if we spell it in caps GOD , good by me , if not , fine. My point has always been consistently stated over the past week that Lord Jesus is not Almighty GOD or Jehovah.. . .

But if He is "god", how come you say that he only began to exist or came into existence when he was conceived and born by Mary?

Or let me ask a different way: when did Jesus become "god"?

debosky:

But what kind of 'god' is he then? How many other 'gods' are there?

I thought this was explained previously.

Mighty god.

If you state what he is not, then what is he? What does 'god in his own right' mean? You have failed to answer this question.

as above !

I assume nothing - which is why I keep quoting you and asking for clarifications. Unfortunately I do not know what you are thinking, so I can only read from your words. If you use almighty instead of mighty, that is not twisting of anything, merely an error on your part.

It's called 'asking for clarification' if you are unsure ,rather than jumping to conclusions !

I have only attempted to achieve clarity in my understanding of what you are saying

and what I am saying is ;

New International Version (©1984)
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one - Mark 12:29

backed up by :

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"- John 20:17[/color]

Enigma:


But if He is "god", how come you say that he only began to exist or came into existence when he was conceived and born by Mary?

Or let me ask a different way: when did Jesus become "god"?

I throw the question back to you and say, how come mere men who had a beginning were referred to as gods.

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'" - Psalm 82:6

frosbel:


I throw the question back to you and say, how come mere men who had a beginning were referred to as gods.

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'" - Psalm 82:6

In other words, you are saying Jesus is no more than men who are referred to as "gods".

Thus, you are saying that Jesus is just a man who was called "god".

In conclusion, you are saying Jesus is not "god" in the sense of being divine?

Or you can clarify by answering this: Is Jesus "god" in the same sense as the people referred to as "gods" in Psalm 82:6?

[quote author=Enigma]

In other words, you are saying Jesus is no more than men who are referred to as "gods".

nope

Thus, you are saying that Jesus is just a man who was called "god".

Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God called Mighty god , everlasting father.

In conclusion, you are saying Jesus is not "god" in the sense of being divine?

Divinity derived from his father God.

Or you can clarify by answering this: Is Jesus "god" in the same sense as the people referred to as "gods" in Psalm 82:6?

Jesus is Mighty god or Lord of Lord and King of Kings.

English is that easy.

Good night, and promise me no more scripture twisting.

Well, even if you don't answer the questions that have been put to you on this thread here, I am sure they will continue to abide with you.

Chiefly (from me aside debosky's), ask yourself if the person speaking in Rev 1:8 is different from the one speaking in Rev 1:17-20; and if "alpha and omega" in verse 8 is different from "first and last" in verses 17-20.

Good night.

Frosbel confuse ni ehn! No be small tin. If it weren't for all the "Jesus is God. No, god. I mean gOd" you're confusing yourself with, Frosbel, I'd already have given up on you.

Make up your mind, is Jesus God or is He not? I'm sure it's coming home to you now that everything Christian is founded on the right answer to that question.

debosky:

I'm sorry - the bible doesn't call God the saviour of all saviours - that is your own creation. Like I said, I am here to discuss biblical accounts and not opinions.

This is what Jesus said about his life, in John 10:18

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

So again I ask you, where in the bible is Yahweh called the 'saviour of all saviours'?

Hey sorry my bro....my internet bundle got exhausted @ mid night...there was nothing I could do...but I'm up this morning and this is a perfect reply to your question...

I said Yahweh is Jesus's saviour....which makes Him the saviour of all saviours.


would u deny that Yahweh isn't Jesus's saviour??

U wanna argue that??


Let me quote hebrew 5:4-10...

4 And no one takes this
honor on himself, but he receives it when
called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on
himself the glory of becoming a high priest.
But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”[a]
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”[b]
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he
offered up prayers and petitions with fervent
cries and tears to the one who could "SAVE" him
from death, and he was heard because of his
reverent submission.

Did I just read ""to the one(Yahweh) who could"" save"" Him(Jesus) from death"".??....

That verse 7 tells who the saviour of Christ is.....

My bro that is d bible talking.....

Jesus died to save us,Yahweh saved Jesus....it was all Yahwehs plan...

That's why I said Yahweh is the saviour of all Saviours.....almighty Saviour
U get it??

Jesus's dying although was out of his own free will(that's why he said no man taketh it from me,but I lay it down myself),but @ d same time he came to do his Fathers will.....besides Jesus said no"" man"" taketh it from me..I might wanna ask you if that statement includes Yahweh,who ofcus isn't a man...you can go find the answers yourself..

Like an obedient Child Jesus carried out his Fathers wish and commands....

Let's read hebrews 10:7 $ 9

7..Then I (Jesus) said, Here I am to do your will,O God(Yahweh) just as it was written of me in the book of the law..
9..Then He(Jesus) said,""here I am.O God(Yahweh),to do your will..So God(Yahweh) does away with all the old sacrifices and puts the sacrifice of Christ in their place..

Its the same with us....we willingly out of free will choose to serve Yahweh..the same free will Jesus had...but having made that pledge to do Yahwehs will ,just as Jesus did,we make sure we carry out Gods commands to the end...when we agree to Yahwehs terms and conditions,we carry out his will...that is why Jesus could say"" let not my wiLl ,but yours(Yahweh) take place""..Jesus wasn't on some shekpe when he said that..

The plan for mankind to be redeemed was instigated by the Father(the almighty),not Jesus...hope u know that??

Incase u've forgotten let's read the most popular scripture all Christians memorize..

John 3:16:
Goodnews bible::

16..For God(Yahweh,ofcus not Jesus) loved the world the world so much that he gave his only(begotten) Son,so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life..
.
Jesus his(Yahwehs) only begotten son became the agent through which Yahweh used to save mankind and reconcile them to Himself(Yahweh)...so isaiah is so right when it says Yahweh is our savior...The title saviour that was attached to Jesus doesn't negate the fact that Yahweh is the all saving God..the savior of all saviours..He is everything..he Is Father.Lord and God over Jesus...

Through out bible history,Yahweh has always saved his people through his agents..

Moses was an agent(a saviour),Joshua(a saviour),all the prophets of old(were saviours) and they were all agents Yahweh used to redeem his people...

Let's check out this scripture too
Judges 3:15

American Standard Version
But when the children of Israel cried unto
Jehovah, Jehovah raised them up a ""SAVIOUR"",
Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjamite, a man
left-handed. And the children of Israel sent
tribute by him unto Eglon the king of Moab.

I can't come out here to say because EHUD was appointed saviour over the house of benjamin and isreal.therefore Yahweh stops being the Saviour of all...never!!!!....

Just as EHUD and all other men were appointed to save Yahwehs people @ there time,so also Yahweh appointed Jesus his Son as Saviour...

Let me finally read 1 john 4:13 $ 14..NIV..
13 This is how we know that we live in him and
he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And
we have seen and testify that the Father has
sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Yahweh appointed his son to be Saviour..Jesus didn't assume that role..he was given the priviledge and responsibility..

And when that happens all glory goes to Yahweh who indeed is the provider of everything,including the provision of His son..

So ISAIAH wasn't making any mistake.....

All your attempts to equate Jesus with his Father won't work because the bible doesn't support it.....

And where is that haibe of a boy/man...

@haibe..I just spotted the scripture...1 john 4:12..NIV..
12"" No one has ever seen God""; but if
we love one another, God lives in us and his
love is made complete in us.


Its just a reminder for you to see clearly that no one has ever seen God...

NO MAN can see God and yet live...

Enigma: Well, even if you don't answer the questions that have been put to you on this thread here, I am sure they will continue to abide with you.

Chiefly (from me aside debosky's), ask yourself if the person speaking in Rev 1:8 is different from the one speaking in Rev 1:17-20; and if "alpha and omega" in verse 8 is different from "first and last" in verses 17-20.

Good night.

Revelations 1:8 as u can read with ur eyes is reffered to Yahweh....who is the almighty God...

verses 1 -6 explains it all...

Verses 17-18 says Jesus dies and was raised,and now lives forever...

I have asked:::: Can the almighty die??

Can the almighty have a Father and God over Him??

Remove the trinity veil from your eyes and read revelations 1:1-8 and tell me who is the almighty God @ verse 8...

I had debunked Ola on this very verse.....

I believe in the Trinity, and I believe in only one God.