ijawkid:

Lol.....my bro when you believe in Jesus you read more about him and also truths from the scriptures.....Christ dying on the cross was for persons like you to purge your system off doctrines like the immortality of the soul and the eternal hell fire torment gibberish........the purging process is continous......keep purging your system until you allign with scriptural truths completely.......u dey hear me??

stop talking to me as if am a babe..as if i just gave my life to Christ yesterday...for ur info.. I have been in the Faith for 15yrs..and this is a consistent walk with Jesus..u dnt know me..this is just a faceless forum..stop jumping into conclusions bro..dats a familiar spirit at work.

Bidam: the Truth is death could not hold Him captive, even in the grave Jesus is Lord..He conquered death in Hell..stop dis blasphemy that Jesus is a man and not God.

Let's put your 3-god theory aside for a minute, it is out of scope as per this article.

No one is arguing that JESUS Christ did not conquer death, however he conquered death because his father through the power of the spirit raised him from the dead. In other words he was not in hell fighting hell or demons.

His atonement work with his blood was completed on the cross when he said it is finished and sacrificed his body and shed his blood for our sins. Then he went one step further and defeated death by the resurrection.

To suggest that JESUS conquered death before his resurrection which seems to be a strange position you hold , borders on blasphemy, not only because it denies the resurrection but because it removes the main player, Yahweh , who sent his son to die for us , from the picture.

Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Bidam: stop talking to me as if am a babe..as if i just gave my life to Christ yesterday...for ur info.. I have been in the Faith for 15yrs..and this is a consistent walk with Jesus..u dnt know me..this is just a faceless forum..stop jumping into conclusions bro..dats a familiar spirit at work.

Sorry sir...................

[quote author=frosbel][/quote]

Deeper Life. Hmmm...i remember most of them for d wrong reasons. And the G.O is nothing compared to them at all (personal experience). Some of them think they can impress him with their "outward" holiness.

well, well, wello. Such a disappointment, we've been expecting answers from the Op and friends questions to Jesus the chief teacher and preacher of hell, still NO COMMENTS. Does it mean these guys don't/can't talk to Jesus? i'll assume that they are shy or faithless. Anyways, to leave yall inexcusable as usual, lemme 'reply' the OP. One reason among others why i didn't answer the OP was an amusing phrase used in the OP. It says and i quote

The following questions are designed to show the utter fallacy of the contention that eternal torment is a scriptural doctrine.

And true to these words, many pages ended up showing us all the utter fallacy of the contention. There ought to be no such contention. Eternal torment is a scriptural teaching.
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
These verses are not fun, they are not nice. They are gory, they testify of torment. What's worse than having all limbs amputated? Is that fun? can you ever say amputation is better than fun? NO, but amputation is better than ETERNAL fire.

Those who reject this teaching are often accused of 'twisting the scriptures'. It is those who believe in eternal torment who must twist the scriptures, all the while accusing others of doing the same. We ask those who believe eternal torment to answer the following questions honestly and scripturally!

Vice versa. Those who believe this teaching are accused of twisting the scriptures and having zero knowledge or what was that stuff frosb uttered?
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
don't you just love Jesus? He's the creator of hell and the chiefo, remember.

I. On what scriptural authority is the Greek word Gehenna, literally 'the valley of the sons of Hinnom' and the city garbage dump in the time of Christ, translated as 'hell'?

Scriptural authority? On what scriptural authority is any Greek word translated to English at all? Hell is an english word, gehenna is not. The english word 'Hell' denotes suffering, an inferno, a state or place of extreme pain or misery, or something or somebody that causes extreme pain or misery. Like when you say "i'll beat the hell out of you" or "that place is hell". It's a word that means complete inconvenience, of the possible worst kind. And that is what Gehenna signified to the hearers. Read the following on Gehenna for instance,
The word gehenna, γέεννα geenna, commonly translated “hell,” is made up of two Hebrew words, and signifies the valley of Hinnom. This was formerly a pleasant valley near to Jerusalem, on the south. A small brook or torrent usually ran through it and partly encompassed the city. This valley the idolatrous Israelites devoted formerly to the horrid worship of Moloch, 2Ki_16:3; 2Ch_28:3. In that worship, the ancient Jewish writers inform us, the idol of Moloch was of brass, adorned with a royal crown, having the head of a calf, and his arms extended as if to embrace anyone. When they offered children to him they heated the statue within by a great fire, and when it was burning hot they put the miserable child into his arms, where it was soon consumed by the heat; and, in order that the cries of the child might not be heard, they made a great noise with drums and other instruments about the idol. These drums were called תּף toph, and hence a common name of the place was Tophet, תּפת Tophet, Jer_7:31-32.
After the return of the Jews from captivity, this place was held in such abhorrence that, by the example of Josiah 2Ki_23:10, it was made the place where to throw all the dead carcasses and filth of the city, and was not unfrequently the place of public executions. It became, therefore, extremely offensive; the sight was terrific; the air was polluted and pestilential; and to preserve it in any manner pure, it was necessary to keep fires continually burning there. The extreme loathsomeness of the place; the filth and putrefaction; the corruption of the atmosphere, and the lurid fires blazing by day and night, made it one of the most appalling and terrific objects with which a Jew was acquainted. It was called the gehenna of fire, and was the image which our Saviour often employed to denote the future punishment of the wicked. from Albert Barnes' notes on the Bible. i don't think there is any english word more hellish than 'hell'. It makes a purrfect translation and passes the message across excellently. It takes scholars willing to read stuff like Albert Barnes note and co to understand the context and picture of "the valley of the sons of WHO AGAIN". Every english literate knows the meaning of 'hell'.

II. Are those you teach ever made aware of the fact that Gehenna is a proper noun and the title of a literal place which exists on earth to this day?
V. Do those who teach the doctrine of eternal torment make clear to their hearers that they really believe in two hells; one temporary (Hades) and one permanent (Gehenna)?

i'll answer these and others tomorrow by God's grace. lemme sample how long or short to make it meanwhile. Consider the below from frosb the OP just yesterday, talking from both sides of the mouth. https://www.nairaland.com/1156627/atheists-please-tell-us-conversion/8#13842577
I have not started to address all the points you and co brought up in this post, but let me summarize a few points because of time :

1. You have a personal duty to research truths for yourself, no one can do this for you.

@ Image123

What type of a human being are u? Are u researching from peoples opinions or from original texts of yr bible?

And yes, i asked Jesus (the One u described as the teacher of hell) but He merely smiled back and said He did not speak english in His time on earth.

Please.
The phrases "eternal torment", "everlasting fire",etc in the scriptures u quoted (Matthew 18 vs 8, Matthew 25, Mark 3 etc) WHERE NOT USED IN ORIGINAL TEXTS(it was that same dump ground GEHANNA that was used). And that is where yr argument ought to be. THEY WERE ADDED IN YOUR ENGLISH TRANSLATION (LATIN AND THEN YR KING JAMES!).
They are repeated in yr Revelations 20 where it says ...the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire....(ORIGINAL TEXTS ENDS IT HERE) (English version continues) and will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Yr questions should be directed to those that translated yr bible and not even to Jesus yr supposed hell teacher (and may He forgive u for that description). And yr questions should be WHY?

WHY was the idea the eternal torment put into a reference of complete destruction? WHY were mortal examples used to glorify this concept when we all know that souls of men neither have "worms" or eat or feel pain outside human bodies?

historians argue that the europeans wanted resistance weakened so the idea of people (who rejected the gospel )being forever burned AS HUMANS will promote some kind of fear in those listening to the earlier missionaries. This (unlike now)did not do much. It was until these missionaries added some good tidings to their visits (medicare, education etc) that people actually started listening and accepting the gospel.

And please. Stop researching on the OP flaws and come here to attack him. It is very childish. And rather than the cheap internet materials (u used to describe gehanna) Pay and register in a good bible research institue (preferably one with affiliations to the AMERICANS-NOT EUROPE). U will see materials that will shock u about yr bible.

...

ijawkid:
If you didn't know there were puctuations issue with this verse then you have a long way to go...........Jesus and that thief did not go to paradise that day.........the kjv translators who are ofcus pro immortality of the soul like you misplaced punctuations to support there false stance.....but as we can see from the scriptures Jesus and that thief went to no paradise ,rather they went to the grave........except you wanna define ""grave"" as paradise.............

Meanwhile the reason why I insinuated you thinking that the altar is paradise is because
I see no relevance of you quoting that scripture in this discussion........I gave a precept upon precept explanation of what those souls on the altar connote.........
______________________________


Lol.....you are fallacious my bro....oh I forgot you were a muslim before....am I right??.....only muslims argue that Jesus did not die,and its no surprise you are holding on to such false belief just to support the phony point that "" the dead are conscious""....smh!!!!!......you had to go quote matthew 12:40 as a prop for ""Jesus was alive while in his tomb or for the 3days he was in the grave....smh!!!!!!.........you better go back to being a muslim...........
Was Jonah active while in the belly of the fish??was Jonah able to preach during his 3days stay in the belly of the fish??........that matthew you quoted even supports the scriptural stance that the dead are totally conscious of nothing at all.....that scripture butresses the fact that the dead are inactive.....and Jesus was indeed inactive while he stayed 3days in the tomb..so going to preach to the spirits in prison from his tomb would even contradict the parallels between his(Jesus) death and stay in sheol for 3days with Jonahs stay in the belly of the fish.......more to this is that Jesus died and was buried,which makes Jesus' case of unconsciousness and inactiveness double that of Jonah's.........Jonah was not killed nor did Jonah die(but preserved alive in the fish's belly),but Jesus was stabbed and killed and he died and was buried.......and so Jesus remained unconscious for 3days.......take your lies back to islam and to greek philosophers

That is why i love you.

I guess bidam can now see his mistakes better.

He did not know it was a comparison between Jonah's state in the fish belly and Jesus' state in the heart of the earth. No preaching what so ever until out of the fish belly and out of the heart of the earth respectively. Our God did not allow his flesh to see corruption. He was well preserved for 3 days and nights.

Bidam did not also ask where the paradise is. Is it in hell/hates/heart of the earth or in heaven? Did Jesus ascend to his Father in heaven with the thief before he was resurrected?

That is it for those that claim to receive from the spirit. Alexleo disappeared when i asked him to teach us according to the spirit that gave him conviction. Image123 stopped replying my post after the 1st encounter. frosbel asked upto 30 questions, to just pick one and teach us according to how you are led is a problem.

Bidam: lol..so what if i was a muslim? Does it bother you that i have seen the light? Are u happy or sad? By your statements i guess you are very annoyed like satan if not why should you say i should go back? I guess just like your father the devil who is in the business of knowing and checking someone's past..you have made a research of my post on nairaland before coming to reply me..keep up d pretense of being a believer..the sheeps will soon be separated from the goats..and mark my words its gonna be soon..

It is good you met us at this point of your conversion, so you don't drift into atheism with a sealed heart due to confusion and contradictory teachings when you start meeting them.

You are very much welcomed.

funny things. This deabrain is just here deceiving himself, and claiming stuff . I'll proceed with replies to the remaining questions when i have the time.

Bidam: the Truth is death could not hold Him captive, even in the grave Jesus is Lord..He conquered death in Hell..stop dis blasphemy that Jesus is a man and not God.

He conquered death, that is why he did not remain dead till now. Do you know satan no even get fear to ask him to bow before him(satan)? But by his resurrection and being glorified by God his God and Father, at the mention of just his name, satan will always tremble.

Image123: funny things. This deabrain is just here deceiving himself, and claiming stuff . I'll proceed with replies to the remaining questions when i have the time.

Dont behave like a chicken here. If u have good stuff to say and not throw in that dirty towel line of "i dont think u are a christian" or "im deceiving myself" please do say it and dont shut yr mouth. I prefered this topic not even talked about in public because of young christians but people like u that just submit verses to back up an emotional lie..needs to be lectured. Dont come back with silly replies of dropping lame verses.

Pending when i see an objective opposite answer to the OP, im putting a halt to my responses. Learned preachers know the truth of this thread but for the benefit of new believers, they dont preach it. I decide to do the same now so that those that would yet accept the gospel (irrespective the method)will still do so.
Meanwhile the kids still wanting to showcase ignorance can continue...

Image123: funny things. This deabrain is just here deceiving himself, and claiming stuff . I'll proceed with replies to the remaining questions when i have the time.

dont you think the deabrain is making more sense than you?

I mean, for some one that said he came to learn, he has learnt and started teaching sef.

Guy, stop this teaching of cruelty.

Stop abusing scriptures.

Do you think christianity has about forty thousands denominations for nothing?

There has been lots of fraud and twisting of the scriptures.

"He that does not love has not come to know God; for God is love." (1 John 4:.
.................

^^^
not selective love, but love for all.
He that rejects that love will be destroyed and he will lose out on God's love.

truthislight:

dont you think the deabrain is making more sense than you?

I mean, for some one that said he came to learn, he has learnt and started teaching sef.

Guy, stop this teaching of cruelty.

Stop abusing scriptures.

Do you think christianity has about forty thousands denominations for nothing?

There has been lots of fraud and twisting of the scriptures.

"He that does not love has not come to know God; for God is love." (1 John 4:.
.................

^^^
not selective love, but love for all.
He that rejects that love will be destroyed and he will lose out on God's love.

Dont mind him. Frosbel warned me earlier about him. I should not have wasted my internet access responding to him.

And yes, i asked Jesus (the One u described as the teacher of hell) but He merely smiled back and said He

did not speak english in His time on earth.

i knew you were shy, didn't feel you were a liar. Little wonder your chat with jebus brought you frowns. Be careful

he doesn't possess you, he can be quite err possessive.

Please.
The phrases "eternal torment", "everlasting fire",etc in the scriptures u quoted (Matthew 18 vs 8, Matthew 25, Mark

3 etc) WHERE NOT USED IN ORIGINAL TEXTS(it was that same dump ground GEHANNA that was used). And that is where yr

argument ought to be. THEY WERE ADDED IN YOUR ENGLISH TRANSLATION (LATIN AND THEN YR KING JAMES!).
They are repeated in yr Revelations 20 where it says ...the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of

fire....(ORIGINAL TEXTS ENDS IT HERE) (English version continues) and will be tormented day and night for ever and

ever.

i just checked through about(more than) 10 different versions/translations including Strong's and all these stuff

you wrote remain false. You should try to double-check all these waste you are feeding yourself with. Don't go the

way of the prodigal son getting fat on husks.

Thank God, at least you saw the OP's flaws, he's consistent at that too. i'll not bother to quote the rest of your

post to give you a chance at redemption. imagine calling Albert Barnes' notes cheap internet materials! you are so

funny for a learner. BTW, Barnes was American, mr americana and the thing no bi 'GEHANNA'. You need Jesus asap.

Back to my epistolic reply jare,

II. Are those you teach ever made aware of the fact that Gehenna is a proper noun and the title of a literal

place which exists on earth to this day?

i'm not a teacher in the sense, but i was taught this anyway. It's ridiculous to sit in one place and assume things

about everybody in an article, quite lazy.

III. On the basis of what you believe concerning Gehenna, could you please explain Jesus' words in Matthew

5:22; that saying 'Raca' made one accountable to the council, but saying 'Thou fool' was punishable by torment in

flames for all eternity? Why the drastic difference in punishment?

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever

shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the

judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall

say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The real contrast is between verses 21 and 22 that's the line the passage had been going. It was between what they

had heard and what Jesus had to say which was the extra. verse 22 is the extra,not a contrast.

IV. Could you please explain why none of the twelve New Testament references to Gehenna mention physical

torment of any kind? If Gehenna is the word which describes the place of eternal physical torment, isn't this a bit

odd?

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is

profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that

one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
i guess these passages must be talking fun then. Something that is worse than living as an amputee for life should

not be considered torment? The devils seem to have more knowledge than some. they know that the place of judgement

is a place of judgement, and any literate knows that Jesus was referring to judgement(not excursion or camping)

when He mentioned hell or gehenna.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God?

art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
i usually tell folks not to read the Bible selectively but cumulatively. It's like a puzzle with many

pieces. the pieces are to be summed, not taken in abstract isolation.

V. Do those who teach the doctrine of eternal torment make clear to their hearers that they really believe

in two hells; one temporary (Hades) and one permanent (Gehenna)?

It's deductive and contextual. Paul just suddenly mentioned 'third heaven' and went on with his epistle. He didn't

"make clear to his hearers that he really believed in three or more". it's not rare or heresy for a word to have

more than one meaning, or for more than one word to mean the same thing. Words like hell, heaven, life, love, angel

mean different things in different contexts. Most people who talk about hell use revelation 20, and that chapter

clearly states the temporary and the permanent hells.

VI. When you teach the doctrine of eternal torment, are you honest in instructing your hearers that Hades

and Gehenna are two very different things although both are translated as 'hell' in the King James Bible?

it's the same scopeless and petty question as question 5, except for the lack of exposure displayed in citing only

the King James. many other versions of the Bible translate hades and gehenna as hell. Check Bible in Basic

English, God's Word, Contemporary English Version, Webster. This is more than three witnesses, the word is

established. Hades, Semnos and Mnaymion can all be interpreted as grave, tomb, cemetery or sepulchre. But in

context, hades can rightly mean more than these especially as it is used in context of judgement.

VII. Are you willing to admit that even if 'The rich man and Lazarus' (Luke 16) is not a parable, it still

has no bearing on the doctrine of eternal torment? The Rich man clearly went to Hades which you teach is not the

final abode of the wicked but a temporary condition. How is it that this temporary condition is preached as if it

is an eternal one? Is this honest? Hades must be emptied so the dead may be judged (Rev 20). Are these facts made

clear to your hearers when you attempt to use Luke 16 to teach the doctrine of eternal torment?

That is may be a parable doesn't make it less probable. luke 16 clearly teaches that the richman was tormented and

did not desire his brothers in such a place of torment. Are you willing to admit that?
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of

torment.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of

his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in

his bosom.
It clearly states that the rich man was tormented in hell/hades. Hades has torments, and the lake of fire also has

torments.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the

beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You're not imagining that those in verse 15 are going to be tickled or entertained instead, are you? CUMULATIVE.
Jesus said amputation is a better state than hell. Who is not willing to admit things here?

VIII. When you quote Jesus' words that 'the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched' (Mark 9) in

reference to hell, do you also make clear that Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24, where in that passage the fire and

worms feed on dead bodies and not immortal souls for all eternity?

Christ can quote from Genesis to Revelation, na hin book. Even me, i quote from any of the books. there is nothing

to be made clear there like He did something like quoting Buddha. None of the verses(OT and NT) talk of worms

feeding, so what question are you asking about feeding on bodies or souls, are you hungry?

IX. If you insist that Mark 9 is referring to the torment of souls by 'fire' and 'worms' for all eternity,

then can you please explain also how fire and worms torment a dead body in Isaiah 66:24? If you insist that the

dead bodies of Isaiah 66:24 are also immortal souls then by what rule of interpretation is this determined or even

allowable?

Another sly repetition, no wonder the thing reach 30. isaiah 66 is a setting on earth, hell is not ON earth. they

are two different happenings.

X. Scripturally speaking, is an 'unquenchable fire' one that never goes out? (Jer 7:20, 17:27, Ezek 20:47-

48) When you preach that Hell is an 'unquenchable fire' do you also quote these verses to show the Biblical use of

this phrase? Aren't we supposed to let the Bible define its own language?

What happened to RIGHTLY dividing the Word of truth (1Timothy2v15)? You don't just lump all scripture together. You

rightly divide, so that you'll know which one is for which. Take all the teachings of the scripture on the coming

judgement, wrath, hell and put them together. They all say it is forever and ever, eternal, everlasting. You don't

go to pick some random phrase in Obadiah. Compare a book or person's use of the word or phrase, add up teachings on

the word. That's the way to study.

XI. Please explain why 'everlasting punishment' (Matt 25:46) must refer to eternal torment? Please explain

why eternal death could not also be an 'everlasting punishment'?

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Everlasting means eternal. Everlasting life, eternal life, no difference.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should

not perish, but have everlasting life.
The punishment of the wicked is a torment. The place is where satan and his angels are, and the devils that met

Jesus knew that judgement is torment.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into

everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There is no rationale to think that the same everlasting fire will not be a place of torment for people.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his

image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup

of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,

and in the presence of the Lamb:
The Bible passage clearly states of men tormented.
What is eternal death BTW, and where is this phrase found in the Bible?

XII. Please explain on what basis you use the phrase 'in the day of judgment' (Matt10:14-15, 11:21-22,

11:23-24; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:10-12, 10:13-14) to teach that there are degrees of punishment in Hell? In what way

does 'in the day of judgment' mean 'in hell'?

The Bible says every man would be judged according to his works.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every

man according to his works.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;

whose end shall be according to their works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was

opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
A twofold child of hell is a greater degree than a onefold. Jesus knew.
The day of judgement is a period when all will be judged, the day of judgement is not hell or in hell, it is a time when sinners will be put in hell i.e the lake of fire. After death, the judgement, or day of judgement.

XIII. According to your logic on the above question, why then do you teach in Matthew 12:36 that 'in the day

of Judgment' should be taken literally instead of meaning 'in hell'?

The day of judgement is a period when all will be judged, the day of judgement is not hell or in hell, it is a time

when sinners will be put in hell i.e the lake of fire. After death, the judgement, or day of judgement.

XIV. If the verses listed above concerning the day of judgment mean what they say ( 'IN the day of judgment'

), then do they have any bearing at all on events which follow the judgment?

oh no, pathetic reasonings. the day of judgement is the day of sentence, the day when their sentence/verdict is

read as it were. After this, they begin to serve the sentence/punishment. it is an everlasting punishment. Jesus

didn't throw about idle words and adjectives.

XV If Hell is torment for all eternity, then please explain how Jesus' reference to 'many stripes' and 'few

stripes' (Luke 12:46-48) teaches degrees of punishment. Do 'many' and 'few' have any meaning at all in eternity?

Why didn't Jesus use the terms 'less severe stripes' and 'more severe stripes' if this is what he had meant?

This is not a very direct passage. i'm not even sure its talking about hell. there are more direct passages that

have already been quoted that teach degree of judgement and eternal damnation. You may reread the reply to question

11.

XVI. In Revelation 14:10-11, does the warning 'and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the

presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever

and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the

mark of his name' apply to mankind in general or to a specific class of people ('if any man worship the beast and

his image')? When you use this verse in support of eternal torment, do you make clear that the warning is directed

toward a specific group of people at a specific time?

This is laughable, and i guess many of the promises of reward and faith are directed towards a specific group at a

specific time only. The passage clearly shows that God will punish any man in torments and they will have no rest.

God is not a respecter of persons. Don't think one race or generation will escape. How shall we escape if we

neglect salvation? That was what saints asked, but here, we have pretenders playing court smart on the Word. Wait,

make the thin d you like fim.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Have you not read? Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and

whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with

fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
sit there hoping it is only a specific group at a specific time ehn.

XVII. Does Revelation 14:10-11 say that the torment of these goes on forever, or that the 'smoke' of this

torment arises forever? Wouldn't there be a difference? If not, why?

Don't you know that there is no smoke without fire? The smoke still belongs to their torment. If the torment stops,

the smoke will stop. Don't you eat cooked food? What sort of dense questions are these? Did you also read

he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone and they have no rest day nor night too? Do

those words make any meaning? What's with all these cup is half full, cup is half empty arguments? The main point

is that there is undeniably a cup as it were.

XVIII. Does the smoke from the destruction of mystical, symbolical Babylon (Rev 19:3) literally rise up

forever and ever also?

Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever.
Yes, the smoke rose up forever and ever. You don't believe it?

XIX. The language in Revelation 14 is taken from the description of the destruction of Edom (Idumea) in

Isaiah 34:10 where the smoke is also to arise 'forever'. In that passage it is the land which burns with fire and

brimstone, and it is the burning of the land which 'shall not be quenched' and from which the smoke would arise

'forever and ever'. Why is it that when this language is quoted in Revelation 14, all these passages are applied to

'hell' when the passage and language they are taken from clearly refers to an earthly condition and earthly

judgments?

Isaiah 34 is talking of the same event, the day of judgement. See the highlights below.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath

utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll

: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig

tree.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of

Zion.
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all

that mourn;
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to

generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation

of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from

the wrath to come.
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

XX. If the warning of Revelation 14:10-11 is a reference to torment in the 'Lake of Fire' then why in

Revelation 19:20-21 when the lake of fire appears are those who were thus warned not cast there but simply killed?

There is time for everything. The devil entered the same 'lake' in chapter 20. they don't all have to enter

together na, no go cause traffic jam hahahahaha. Revelation 20 is in english language it states that all dead are

given up by death and hell, and then cast into the lake. What's with the original OP and selective reading. Learn to read cumulatively from now oh.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,

where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which

were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

XXI. If the warning of Revelation 14:10-11 is a reference to torment in the 'Lake of Fire' then why,

according to popular evangelical theology, is the execution of this punishment separated from the warning contextually by six chapters and chronologically by over 1000 years?

Is this really a question? Why is the warning of Jesus and the apostles to us separated from execution by more than 2000 years? Ever read this in your Bible?
Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

XXII. In reference to the 'lake of fire', why is it that what is said of the Devil, the Beast, and the False

Prophet, 'shall be tormented day and night forever and ever', is not said of mankind in general? Are you careful to

not apply this language where the Bible does not?

It is said They are clearly going to be in the same place. Forever and ever means everlasting, eternally. It's the

same thing.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night

, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
forever and ever, day and night, everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, eternal damnation, eternal judgement,

eternal fire. they are all meaning the same thing.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into

everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal

judgment.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

XXIII. Throughout the book of Revelation symbols are explained in a consistent manner; fine linen IS the

righteousness of the saints, the candlesticks ARE the churches, the ten horns ARE ten kings. Why is it that when we

are told 'the lake of fire IS the second death' this logic is reversed to mean 'the second death IS the lake of

fire'?

Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet,

and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Cancel the word 'throughout'. Babylon is also clothed in fine linen. The question is meaningless by the way. There

is no logic reversed. It is only commonsense and sane that if the candlesticks are the churches, then the churches

are the candlesticks and so on.

XXIV. How do you cast death and Hades literally into a literal lake of fire? (Rev 20:14) If this is

symbolical then why is the next verse 'and whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the

lake of fire' not also symbolical?

i don't know about symbolic. but i know that death and hell are depicted as beings and are cast into hell i.e the

lake of fire.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and

Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword,

and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.?
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Death and hell are clearly personified and punished in this book. Death is referred as him and is seen sitting on a

pale horse. i believe, do you?
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have

spoken:

XXV. Can you please provide one verse of scripture which states that Hell is a lake of fire?

Just one, you are too kind.
Jam 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, that it

defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
All the hell fire passages of Jesus point to the judgement or wrath to come. It's only sane to deduce that this

judgement is what is REVEALED to John and us as the lake of fire. Perhaps, Jesus has another name He refers to it

in Heaven like Tunbarakaraptume. But i verily doubt Tunbarakaraptume would make any sense or paint any picture to

many human beings. Jesus is a good teacher/Master.

XXVI. Can you please provide one verse of scripture which states that Jesus died to save mankind from hell?

i don't preach this or teach this. However, it is implied in that He saved us from the wrath to come. That wrath is

hell, isn't it? Or what we also call the lake of fire, or judgement, or whatever other name you love, as long as

you get that picture of that sorrowful place prepared by Jesus Christ for devil and other sinners.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which

delivered us from the wrath to come.

XXVII. Could you please provide one verse of scripture which states that 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'

takes place in hell?

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer

darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever

loveth and maketh a lie.

XXVIII. Can you please provide one verse of scripture which states that 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' is

an eternal condition for the unsaved?

All of the passages shown that state that there will be eternal punishment and everlasting hell, day and night, forever and ever. There is no scripture that says weeping and gnashing is not an eternal condition for the unsaved BTW.
The wicked is compared with the righteous and are WITHOUT, in outer darkness for eternity.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and

idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
'ARE' is different from 'WERE'. They are there continually, and they will be wailing and gnashing teeth as they see

themselves outside like the rich man in Luke 16 and the warning below.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all

the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

XXIX. Can you please provide one verse of scripture which states that there are degrees of punishment in hell?

Another glibly repeated question to complete the magic number 30. See question 12 and 15 or so.
Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
If hell is the same, there will be no lowest hell.

X.XX. If you cannot provide scripture for the five previous questions are you willing to stop preaching these things as though you're quoting the Bible directly? Are you at least willing to admit that these are based only upon your own assumptions and not on the Word of God?

i don answer am ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Jesus Christ the chief teacher of hell will never give up or

stop preaching these things, i will never give up. Hell is a place of sorrow, torment and pain. It's not a fun

house or a place of paralysis. the Bible speaks of hell as been beneath, a place of sorrow, a place of pain, the

devil's final destination, the sinner's final destination. All these revelation from scriptures about hell is

cumulative. A person is supposed to increase in knowledge, not fragment. i've taken time out to copiously quote

tens of scriptures on hell. This contradicts the assumptions of the OP and his crew that anybody that believes there is hell(everlasting punishment) is just following tradition or word they said in orthodox church. i hope that that crew will check up to see whether these things are so instead of bizarrely attacking the King James and myself. i hope they strain at the whole camel instead of leaving out major portions and hypocritically straining at a gnat. Or better still, that they swallow it all.

2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell got hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

^^^^^

Evidence of poor bible study , need I say more.

Dishonestly translating Sheol and Hades as HELL to support a false doctrine.

Those who will err will err, those who love the truth and yearn to know GOD will continue to search the scriptures with humility and a willingness to learn , while disposing of previously preconceived and erroneous notions.

Image123: i knew you were shy, didn't feel you were a liar. Little wonder your chat with jebus brought you frowns. Be careful

he doesn't possess you, he can be quite err possessive.


i just checked through about(more than) 10 different versions/translations including Strong's and all these stuff

you wrote remain false. You should try to double-check all these waste you are feeding yourself with. Don't go the

way of the prodigal son getting fat on husks.

Thank God, at least you saw the OP's flaws, he's consistent at that too. i'll not bother to quote the rest of your

post to give you a chance at redemption. imagine calling Albert Barnes' notes cheap internet materials! you are so

funny for a learner. BTW, Barnes was American, mr americana and the thing no bi 'GEHANNA'. You need Jesus asap.

The reason im responding is because at least u checked through something and did not drop a lame verse-rather u decided to be lame yrself.

Jumping into a trap of getting a material written by americans was so childish-I SAID A RESEARCH INSTITUE AFFILIATED TO THE AMERICANS As though u dont know english. It took me some good 15 full-time months to be a student of one good one in the heart of berger lagos then. And for u to complete that course, u gear yrself (by an undertaken of good behaviour) because as we got to know, so many things that we know today and even quote (even to satan laughably) WERE TOTALLY WRONG.

And if u like, look for 25 translations-MIND U-THEY ARE TRANSLATING THE AUTHORIZED KING JAMES (which in itself claims to translate the greek hebrew and latin bibles) u will still go round this ignorant circle of yr verses.

Probably u checked strong's version or the leader's bible and saw "hell fire" and "everlasting torment" and smiled to yrself saying 'ah that deebrain guy go hear am today'. What i would assure u is that U WONT FIND (except from some cheap materials online of people that like to raise arguments against bible statements) EASILY ORIGINAL TEXTS UNLESS FROM SPECIAL LIBRARIES FROM THE SCHOOLS IM TELLING U.

Now to yr also cheap insults (i wonder why supposed christians resort to it when there is an objective challenge to their doctrines), i did not lie when i talked to Jesus (not Jebus-because i assume emotions got d better side of u while typing). Please remember to edit yr wrong spellings.

If Jesus through the Holy spirit does not possess u, satan will. Yr soul cant be an island-so i need more of his possession.

The prodigal son got fat on husks and still got more than his dilligent elder brother..although personally i did not like the guy.

And until death- i will never assume to have known anything. I will always learn both spiritual and secular things. So i dont mind been called a learner. Ive learned from here not to engage the stubbornly ignorant.

My flaw with the OP is him bringing this hard truth to a public forum (for the sake of new converts)..and u people rather than brainless arguments ought just to cleverly answer and move on (but naaaa) u guys brought emotions to it. Thanks to yr sunday services.

Lastly i need Jesus, who doesnt? The fact that im a believer and a student of his word does not mean ive become too much for him...hello?

frosbel: ^^^^^

Evidence of poor bible study , need I say more.

Dishonestly translating Sheol and Hades as HELL to support a false doctrine.

Those who will err will err, those who love the truth and yearn to know GOD will continue to search the scriptures with humility and a willingness to learn , while disposing of previously preconceived and erroneous notions.

Mr OP

Its like yr brother mr Image123 is more into "winning" an argument against u rather than answering yr questions, sir.

deebrain:

Mr OP

Its like yr brother mr Image123 is more into "winning" an argument against u rather than answering yr questions, sir.

that's my impression .

frosbel:

^^^^^

Evidence of poor bible study , need I say more.

Dishonestly translating Sheol and Hades as HELL to support a false doctrine.

Those who will err will err, those who love the truth and yearn to know GOD will continue to search the scriptures with humility and a willingness to learn ,

while disposing of previously preconceived and erroneous notions.

@frosbel

The way in which various books were combined and arranged to form or compile the Bible,

the way the bible and translations were planned preconditions and sets one up to sheeple-ishly receive false doctrines, erroneous notions

Translations were done on prevalent theology and not on the Hebrew/Greek original text.

Imagine Bishop Oyedepo saying "You are not set for deliverance, and you are free to go to hell!"

Hello! Hell no. There is no hell.

The sheeple think the KJV is inerrant, like the Hebrew or Greek original texts are.

The American Bible Society, in 1851, compared six different editions of the King James Bible and discovered over 24,000 variations between the sampled editions for a particular Bible translation.

Like to believe that though it can be slow, surely, the veil will gradually be removed from eyes.

The knowledge and true translations or true meaning of words

such as "torment", "punishment", "everlasting", "the rich asking for water", "the rich cried out" etc etc

from the original text will remove the lack of understanding and clear up all these theology muddles.

moredendisc:

@frosbel

The way in which various books were combined and arranged to form or compile the Bible,

the way the bible and translations were planned preconditions and sets one up to sheeple-ishly receive false doctrines, erroneous notions

Translations were done on prevalent theology and not the Hebrew/Greek original text.

Imagine Bishop Oyedepo saying "You are not set for deliverance, and you are free to go to hell!"

Hello! Hell no. There is no hell.

The sheeple think the KJV is inerrant, like the Hebrew or Greek original texts are.

The American Bible Society, in 1851, compared six different editions of the King James Bible and discovered over 24,000 variations between the sampled editions for a particular Bible translation.

Like to believe that though it can be slow, surely, the veil will gradually be removed from eyes.

The knowledge and true translations of words

such as "torment" "punishment" "everlasting" the rich asking for water" etc etc

from the original text will remove the lack of understanding and clear up all these theology muddles.

Eh? Oga, as much as possible, avoid bringing names of pastors here...this is to cushion the weight of attacks available on this thread.

deebrain:

Eh? Oga, as much as possible, avoid bringing names of pastors here . . .

this is to cushion the weight of attacks available on this thread.

@deebrain

You're more concerned about his skin than the sheeple's under his guard?

Tell it like it is! I'll say

It is an observation that needs for posterity sake to be mentioned that, he, caught on camera, sold a hell false doctrine

moredendisc:

@deebrain

You're more concerned about his skin than the sheeple's under his guard?

Tell it like it is! I'll say

It is an observation that needs for posterity sake to be mentioned that, he, caught on camera, sold a hell false doctrine

Ah!

Boomark:

It is good you met us at this point of your conversion, so you don't drift into atheism with a sealed heart due to confusion and contradictory teachings when you start meeting them.

You are very much welcomed.

that's the natural man speaking here.

hehehahaheha inexcusable. Then was fulfilled AGAIN that which was written "the Pharisees heard that He had put the sadducees to silence".

@Apostle image..God bless you jare... You really stood up to these false doctrines which is quite commendable showing the mark of a real apostle...in my little experiences with God i realise that God never follows the opinions of the crowd..it is not about winning an argument but about preaching the TRUTH whenever falsehood is displayed to fool even the "elect". I believe other silent viewers really saw and appreciate ur toil, effort and sleepless night you put into this, to see that the TRUTH prevails..God bless u sir! You will by no means lose your reward.

amen, thanks