[quote author=Bidam]
i believe Jesus was inspired to say that to the Jews(ofcos they knew it reffered to the valley southeast of jerusalem)that hellfire is a place like that and not the grave like u erroneously quoted..charles H.spurgeon says and i qoute:" when thou diest thy soul will be tormented alone-that will be a hell for it- but at the day of judgement thy body will join thy soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells.

As you hold on to this erroneous doctrine you are getting the whole concept muddled up.

No one is arguing about the hell fire where the wicked will be punished and destroyed , rather our bone of contention is :

1. The timing of this HELL. Does it exist now ? Are there people burning in this Hell before judgement day or is it a future event ?
2. The nature of this HELL. Is it an everlasting place of perpetual torment with no hope for reprieve or is it a place for the final and total destruction of all evil including death ?

Now , you have gone one step further to show why nobody should take what you are saying seriously, since the opinions of MEN seem to have a strong hold on your interpretation of scripture.

Though I also like Spurgeon, do you know that he was also a Calvinist who believe in the 'once saved always saved heresy ' , also one of his hobbies was cigar smoking. Google it.

You have to be careful at all times, that your standard is scripture and not the theology of certain men, groups or churches.

thanks.

Image123: can any man stop Jesus, the chief teacher of hell?

May God forgive u for that statement.

deebrain:

May God forgive u for that statement.

The guy is a false teacher , he also supports the prosperity gospel, ignore him

Bidam: I was reading my bible this morning and i stumbled on a scripture where jesus says and i quote: "but anyone who says you fool will be in danger of the fire of hell"...since you guys are saying hell is equivalent to the grave...pls can u candidly explain why jesus will mention "fire" in a grave? Pls no connectin,lifting and twisting of scriptures cos i get bored easily wen u bring semantics and logic to explanations..why did jesus mention 'FIRE' in mat 5:22?

Grave itself will be thrown into the lake of fire-IT WOULD ITSELF DIE TOO. They mean the same thing-DEATH. But "grave" is physical death. Those dead physically are not really dead. Its only their bodies that are dead. The lake of fire is the permanent death.

6 pages and counting even after ive moved for the closure of the thread. Some people are now researching their bibles-SOMETHING THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE YEARS AGO. This is something that has been held unto for years-ignorantly.
Keep bringing yr arguments O (some are even baseless). U will still see IN YOUR BIBLE THAT THEY HAVE NO BEARINGS.
The bible is NOT A NEWSPAPER.

Bidam: I was reading my bible this morning and i stumbled on a scripture where jesus says and i quote: "but anyone who says you fool will be in danger of the fire of hell"...since you guys are saying hell is equivalent to the grave...pls can u candidly explain why jesus will mention "fire" in a grave? Pls no connectin,lifting and twisting of scriptures cos i get bored easily wen u bring semantics and logic to explanations..why did jesus mention 'FIRE' in mat 5:22?

Good question.

Jesus was talking of Gehenna.

Here's another translation - "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire." (Young's).

Part of the confusion about Hell is caused by some translation issues. In most translations, three words are translated as Hell -
1) sheol (Hebrew - pit, place of the dead). Meaning = grave.
2) hades (Greek - from word meaning "the unseen", place of the dead). Meaning = grave.
3) Gehenna ( derived from actual location outside Jerusalem - Valley of the Son Hinnom). Place used by idol worshippers for human sacrifices. But was converted to disposing rubbish and unwanted dead likely to prevent it being used by idol worshippers - 2Ki 23:10: "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech" (English Standard Verseion). Meaning = final destruction of the wicked .
Also check Jeremiah 7:32-33 to show it's not for physical eternal torment - "Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away".

The use of Gehenna is figurative to signify final destruction of the unrepentant wicked.

I wished translators stayed consistent and rendered sheol/hades as "hell" or "grave" or just "sheol"/"hades" and keep Gehenna as "Gehenna", then the biblical meaning would have been quite easy to figure out - some did, some allowed their perceived (mis)understanding to come thru. It means more work to know the facts - truth-seeking requires effort it seems.

Image123: can any man stop Jesus, the chief teacher of hell?

why not disappear like alexleo instead of giving others hope on what you don't know. Ask questions and learn. Am also learning from this thread. We shouldn't be proud in ignorance.

TroGunn:

Good question.

Jesus was talking of Gehenna.

Here's another translation - "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire." (Young's).

Part of the confusion about Hell is caused by some translation issues. In most translations, three words are translated as Hell -
1) sheol (Hebrew - pit, place of the dead). Meaning = grave.
2) hades (Greek - from word meaning "the unseen", place of the dead). Meaning = grave.
3) Gehenna ( derived from actual location outside Jerusalem - Valley of the Son Hinnom). Place used by idol worshippers for human sacrifices. But was converted to disposing rubbish and unwanted dead likely to prevent it being used by idol worshippers - 2Ki 23:10: "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech" (English Standard Verseion). Meaning = final destruction of the wicked .
Also check Jeremiah 7:32-33 to show it's not for physical eternal torment - "Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away".

The use of Gehenna is figurative to signify final destruction of the unrepentant wicked.

I wished translators stayed consistent and rendered sheol/hades as "hell" or "grave" or just "sheol"/"hades" and keep Gehenna as "Gehenna", then the biblical meaning would have been quite easy to figure out - some did, some allowed their perceived (mis)understanding to come thru. It means more work to know the facts - truth-seeking requires effort it seems.

thanks bro..u actually threw more light on that scripture..the others were just dancing around to prove a point.

Bidam: thanks bro..u actually threw more light on that scripture..the others were just dancing around to prove a point.

Yeah he threw more light of that scripture to u. If u were following the thread from the begining, the OP made some of these points that this person that just answered u raised. Nobody (i suppose) is proving a point in this thread not to talk of dancing around to prove it. Even after the OP made his points, yr co-hell advocates started revisiting statements, finding holes and trying to counter what the OP had earlier stated.

TroGunn:

Good question.

Jesus was talking of Gehenna.

Here's another translation - "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire." (Young's).

Part of the confusion about Hell is caused by some translation issues. In most translations, three words are translated as Hell -
1) sheol (Hebrew - pit, place of the dead). Meaning = grave.
2) hades (Greek - from word meaning "the unseen", place of the dead). Meaning = grave.
3) Gehenna ( derived from actual location outside Jerusalem - Valley of the Son Hinnom). Place used by idol worshippers for human sacrifices. But was converted to disposing rubbish and unwanted dead likely to prevent it being used by idol worshippers - 2Ki 23:10: "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech" (English Standard Verseion). Meaning = final destruction of the wicked .
Also check Jeremiah 7:32-33 to show it's not for physical eternal torment - "Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away".

The use of Gehenna is figurative to signify final destruction of the unrepentant wicked.

I wished translators stayed consistent and rendered sheol/hades as "hell" or "grave" or just "sheol"/"hades" and keep Gehenna as "Gehenna", then the biblical meaning would have been quite easy to figure out - some did, some allowed their perceived (mis)understanding to come thru. It means more work to know the facts - truth-seeking requires effort it seems.

Im speechless. U are blessed.

Bidam: thanks bro..u actually threw more light on that scripture..the others were just dancing around to prove a point.

You have not answered ONE question out of the 30 presented in the original article.

What is wrong with you people, reminds me of the ostrich burying his head , pretending not to see or hear the evidence.

Let me repeat some of these questions here :

V. Do those who teach the doctrine of eternal torment make clear to their hearers that they really believe in two hells; one temporary (Hades) and one permanent (Gehenna)?

VI. When you teach the doctrine of eternal torment, are you honest in instructing your hearers that Hades and Gehenna are two very different things although both are translated as 'hell' in the King James Bible?

VII. Are you willing to admit that even if 'The rich man and Lazarus' (Luke 16) is not a parable, it still has no bearing on the doctrine of eternal torment? The Rich man clearly went to Hades which you teach is not the final abode of the wicked but a temporary condition. How is it that this temporary condition is preached as if it is an eternal one? Is this honest? Hades must be emptied so the dead may be judged (Rev 20). Are these facts made clear to your hearers when you attempt to use Luke 16 to teach the doctrine of eternal torment?

VIII. When you quote Jesus' words that 'the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched' (Mark 9) in reference to hell, do you also make clear that Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24, where in that passage the fire and worms feed on dead bodies and not immortal souls for all eternity?

Oya help us answer these few questions.

waiting..................

frosbel:

You have not answered ONE question out of the 30 presented in the original article.

What is wrong with you people, reminds me of the ostrich burying his head , pretending not to see or hear the evidence.

Let me repeat some of these questions here :



Oya help us answer these few questions.

waiting..................

Sir frosbel abeg no vex. Im not sure he was following the thread from d begining....take am easy O.

deebrain:

Sir frosbel abeg no vex. Im not sure he was following the thread from d begining....take am easy O.

ah okay , my fault , I apologize to bidam !

frosbel:

You have not answered ONE question out of the 30 presented in the original article.

What is wrong with you people, reminds me of the ostrich burying his head , pretending not to see or hear the evidence.

Let me repeat some of these questions here :



Oya help us answer these few questions.

waiting..................

ayam a bible student not a scholar..i'd rather ask questions than answer these questions u posed..lemme make a personal indept study on it..am comin with some questions..hope u don't mind?

Bidam: ayam a bible student not a scholar..i'd rather ask questions than answer these questions u posed..lemme make a personal indept study on it..am comin with some questions..hope u don't mind?

well, your recent mental disposition is ok.

As long you are not saying it most be according to the tradition of men instead of the scriptures.

My brother, you are mixing up things and just creating confusion for yourself. True the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were physiccal destroyed due to the badness of the people - these people died in that fire and were thus judged. Their judgement is eternal testimony for all.

Burning people eternally in a fire for fun is something God said did not enter his mind.

Jeremiah 19:5 - "They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind".

If it did not enter God's mind at this time to burn people for fun, once wonders when it did and why. Truth is, it's still not on God's mind.

Judgement is not for fun, i don't know where you got that idea. God eternally threw out Adam and Eve from Eden because they ate from a tree, disobeying Him. God sent a lion to kill a man because he ate bread and drank water. God rejected king Saul because he did not kill some animals, God slew Anaias and his wife because they told one lie. God does not play jokes. He's got antecedents, He can make people not to rest day and night forever. He honours His Word more than His name.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
God will not be burning His sons or making any offering in hell fire. This is what you quoted in Jeremiah. God will be punishing His enemies.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Yes this verse talk of the destruction of Jesus body, which he sacrificed soon thereafter - Joh 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up".

Clearly Jesus was killed and died for 3 days. And that really sums up what destruction means - absence of life. Had God not ressurected Jesus, he would have stayed dead:

That's the point. That there can be existence after destruction. Jesus proved that.

Acts 2:25-27 - "For David saith concerning him: I foresaw the Lord before my face: because he is at my right hand, that I may not be moved. For this my heart hath been glad, and any tongue hath rejoiced: moreover my flesh also shall rest in hope. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption" (Douay Rheims).

Notice how in this Acts verses hell is not a place of torment, but where dead humans "sleep" or "rest in hope", including Jesus.

Why do you talk from both sides of the mouth? The OP says that hell teachers know that hell means different things and asked if they make this clear. Why are you acting like hell means one thing when its convenient, and different things when convenient. We all know(it is common knowledge, contrary to folks assertions) that Bible scholars translated different words to mean hell and it is deductible from context. It's the same way other words are translated to mean the same thing, like Life for e.g which could be bios or zoe or psuche, chay etc. Or Heaven which may be the sky or God's abode depending on context. This are all language issues and not someone's attempt to put his/her doctrine into the Bible. Some words have same spelling, different pronunciation etc, its all language complexity. The unguarded attacks of the OP and his ilk on men who have hazarded life, time and career to give us wonderful versions and translations is just satanic.

I'm glad you agree that Death and Hell (grave) will meet their final destruction in the lake of fire ( meaning "there will be no more death/dying" ) . That is exactly what happens to all in the "lake of fire" - final destruction, no longer alive and never brough back to life. You are beginning to get the sense of it.

Eternal tormenting of people just for fun is not on God's mind - far from it.

When therre is no more death, it implies that nobody will die again. That's why it is described with adjesctives like eternal and everlasting. Sinners are WITHOU/outside. They will be existing and gnashing teeth outside the Kingdom of God. It's not a 'were' past, it is continuous.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

deebrain: Lets use apostle John's "glasses"...shall we?
So he saw a throne with God (Jesus apparently) sitting on it. And people woke up again from death to be judged. Books were opened and judgements read. He also saw death and hell fire (the place of torment) come for judgement (very striking). Almost all of these were thrown into a burning fire WHERE THEY PERISHED. Thats why he called it second death-PEOPLE RESURRECTED ONLY TO BE KILLED AGAIN.

This is the fun we should be questioning. Why wake/resurrect all the sinners from Adam and then kill them again. Does that make any sense? This is not hollywood/nollywood

Thats why they cant answer the atheists. And rather than answer the OP, they are throwing insults.

i want to believe you are not referring to me. Or please, show me the insult thrown.

Are u referring to Bar-Jesus?

The Jesus no one can stop is Jesus Christ the Messiah who preached hell as the grave, a place he also went when he died, a place where the dead "rest in hope" till resurrection.

Acts 2:25-27 - "For David saith concerning him: I foresaw the Lord before my face: because he is at my right hand, that I may not be moved. For this my heart hath been glad, and any tongue hath rejoiced: moreover my flesh also shall rest in hope. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption"

Hope you are not intending to subtract from the Bible? Recvall this?
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
My research using the 1901 American Standard Version gives the word 'hell' thirteen times in its new testament. Eleven times, it is by Jesus, not BarJesus but Jesus the Christ. James mentions once and Peter once. Jesus remains the chief teacher of hell and He even created it. He didn't go to this hell when He died, did He?
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Image123:
i want to believe you are not referring to me. Or please, show me the insult thrown.


Hope you are not intending to subtract from the Bible? Recvall this?
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
My research using the 1901 American Standard Version gives the word 'hell' thirteen times in its new testament. Eleven times, it is by Jesus, not BarJesus but Jesus the Christ. James mentions once and Peter once. Jesus remains the chief teacher of hell and He even created it. He didn't go to this hell when He died, did He?
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Your knowledge of the bible is almost at point ZERO.

You need to calm down and start making sense !

Image123:
This is the fun we should be questioning. Why wake/resurrect all the sinners from Adam and then kill them again. Does that make any sense? This is not hollywood/nollywood

Whether it "makes sense" or not does not count here. John saw people that died come back to life...now apologies to john's level of education-he did not see flesh and blood-he saw supposed immortal souls. After they had their judgment, they were packaged into a lake of fire where he saw them perish again. The term "second death" should not make sense to anybody. Whats d essence? Why should God make it look like hollywood (like u say)? But thats what he saw and he gave that modest description.

After physical death, do individual continue to exist in a state of personal consciousness or not? Pls reply with relevant scriptures.

Bidam: After physical death, do individual continue to exist in a state of personal consciousness or not? Pls reply with relevant scriptures.

ECclesiastes 9:5

____________________________
New International Version (©1984)
For the living know that they will die, but the
dead know nothing; they have no further
reward, and even the memory of them is
forgotten.
_____________________________
New Living Translation (©2007)
The living at least know they will die, but the
dead know nothing. They have no further
reward, nor are they remembered.
______________________________


They are conscious of nothing at all....

Image123:
This is the fun we should be questioning. Why wake/resurrect all the sinners from Adam and then kill them again. Does that make any sense? This is not hollywood/nollywood

you got it wrong, they are not being raise to be killed as you said and as some translation erroneously put "damnation" but rather to "judgment" as Revelation 20:12 rightly puts it and explains what will happened.

so, when the bible says "all" the dead shall come out, you say it does not make sense abi?

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which
"all"
that are in the graves shall hear his voice and forth" (John 5:28).
...................
Why did that ^^^ not make sense to you?

Are you not aware that the wages of Adamic sin is death?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23).
......................

Now, people that died due to Adamic sin have paid the wages of their Adamic sins, so, on given another short at life by God because of the grace from Jesus ransom sacrifice for Adamic sin, Since they have not heard about Jesus and the ransom and as such can not call on him to be seved the are given the opurtunity.

How can they call on some one they have not heard of and neither have they been told about Jesus, as such this fundamental basis for judgement has not been applied to them, how then and on what basis are they being judged and condemned forever?

Is it different strokes for different folks? No.

So, their coming out is to be given the opurtunity to call on Jesus/Yahweh to be seved just as we have the opurtunity today to call or to reject Jesus applied ransom sacrifice since that is the only name that all men must call to get away saved and they have died without the opurtunity to hear about this name, this seed of Abraham by whose means "all the world will seved themselves".

All alive must hear about the christ befor the end will come unless they refused it:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a "witness" unto all nations; and then shall the end come. " (Matthew 24:14).
.....................

So also those that have died without hearing about it must be given equal opurtunity like we today, Yahweh's perfect sense of justice demands it.

So, the dead on coming out have paid for Adamic sin already as the wages of sin demands, as such they resurrect on a clean slate, Adamic sin is a by gone thing:

"For he that has died is freed from sin." (Romans 6:7).
...................
Some translation uses "acquitted from their sins".

That ^^^^^ fundamental principles is what baptism is fashion after.

So, this resurected ones will be taught/told the way forward from the scrolls that will be open just as people are being taught today which their response serves as judgement to their being seved or not on the last day.

equal justice and opurtunity for all.

Yahweh's sense of Justice is perfect indeed.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12).
..............

Today, all of mankind are befor God who takes note of every individuals response to the message about the christ, as to survival or to destruction on the last day.

Such is the judgement.
Peace

Bidam: After physical death, do individual continue to exist in a state of personal consciousness or not? Pls reply with relevant scriptures.

Apart from very rare cases (like in 1st samuel 28 where a witch helped King Saul raise Prophet samuel) Hebrews 9 vs 27 says after death comes judgement. Not immediate judgement-but the one of the last day (if they were christians they would rise in the rapture of the church though)

So to the person who died, it would be as though he slept off and woke up almost immediately again (like a deep sleep)

If he was a christian, he wakes up immediately to events of the rapture, his heavenly reward and a place of rulership (Rev 20 vs 4).

If an unbeliever, he wakes up to the events of the white throne judgement (Rev 20 vs5,12).

They will happen in a moment of an eye blink-that is the moment of death and the resurrection into judgements EVEN THOUGH THE TIME THE PERSON DIED AND THE TIME OF RAPTURE AND JUDGEMENT DAY ARE THOUSANDS OF YEARS APART.

So in the period "while dead", the person is unaware of anything. He is no where. His consciousness (which would now be immortal) comes alive during either of the resurrections

Image123:


My research using the 1901 American Standard Version gives the word 'hell' thirteen times in its new testament. Eleven times, it is by Jesus, not BarJesus but Jesus the Christ. James mentions once and Peter once.

All the bible including your 1901 kingjames v are translated from manuscript that are over a thousand years older. You can still see the way king james abused the word "hell" in the bible from those old manuscript today.

Using hell to means a place of fire and using it to means grave at other places thereby creating confussion.

If you dont sort out this things and know where fire is suppose to be used and where it is not supposed to be used you will still be going round and round.

Ok, consider, if hell is fire or a place of fire as us in the kingjames bible, why then throw "hell" into the lake of fire? Fire into fire

See:

"And death and "hell" were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14).
....................

The right word there ^^^ is grave since if some one dies he will be put in the grave.

But kingjames bible just keeps on mixing things up there and many other places.

That Rev20:14 is telling us that death and grave were cast into fire, that is destroyed since the next chapter 21 verse 4 says and "death will be no more" and this death will be know more is as a result of it being cast into fire in verse 14 of chap 20.


But the translators of kingjames version owing to their bias or tradition wanted to lead people to think that it is "hell fire" and the people inside that is thrown into fire.
*Smh*

Image123:
Jesus remains the chief teacher of hell and He even created it.

No he is not and did not. What you are doing is a misaplication of scriptures.

Image123:
He didn't go to this hell when He died, did He?

yes he did, since the meaning of the word hell used at that place is wrong and the place he went has no fire.

Blame tradition and kingjames bible for your confussion.

The right word there should have been grave, sheol, or hedes but certainly not hell.(since hell is not the common grave of mankind but "fire" as used in kingjames bible)

Image123:
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

all this is you giving yourself planty confusing work.

The truth is a very straight forward thing and not you trying to explain why Jesus did not go to "hell fire".

Ofcouse we know that Jesus was not burnt in fire or tormented, but your use of the word hell is giving you this problem and confusion.

Just know that the correct word there is that Jesus went to grave or sheol or hedes, the resting place of all mankind and waiting to be resurrected.
Peace.

Bidam: After physical death, do individual continue to exist in a state of personal consciousness or not? Pls reply with relevant scriptures.

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalm 115:17).

deebrain:

Apart from very rare cases (like in 1st samuel 28 where a witch helped King Saul raise Prophet samuel) Hebrews 9 vs 27 says after death comes judgement. Not immediate judgement-but the one of the last day (if they were christians they would rise in the rapture of the church though)

the case of samuel is a deceit from satan and his Demons.

That is why Yahweh commanded that those witches that satan use to deceive people should be sent out of Israel.

Saul did not see samuel with his eyes but depended on what the witch have to tell him and that is how and where satan play his tricks.

While samuel was alive he refuse to see Saul till he died.

God told him that he has rejected Saul and as such he samuel cannot go to Saul or passed any message to Saul.

Yahweh was no longer talking or having dealing with Saul.

Is it possible tha when Samuel died he decided to disobey God? No.

Will God decide to start dealing with Saul after samuel has died and state using samuel at death? No.

Will Yahweh pass through a spirit medium that he has had chased and killed in Israel to pass a message to a rejected Saul? No.

Will a spirit medium be able to consult Yahweh? No.

Will Yahweh talk to the rejected Saul through a spirit medium? No.

So, from the fore going, is it true that the character that the medium described/brought forth was the dead samuel?
Judge for yourself.

Satan is behind the immortality of the soul doctrine and he and is Demons uses spirit medium to also spread it.

The dead are silent. Psalm 115:17.
Peace

tislight
you're getting my attention at last, learning to speak for yourself. I'll respond in due time please.

truthislight:

you got it wrong, they are not being raise to be killed as you said and as some translation erroneously put "damnation" but rather to "judgment" as Revelation 20:12 rightly puts it and explains what will happened.

so, when the bible says "all" the dead shall come out, you say it does not make sense abi?

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which
"all"
that are in the graves shall hear his voice and forth" (John 5:28).
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Why did that ^^^ not make sense to you?

Are you not aware that the wages of Adamic sin is death?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23).
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Now, people that died due to Adamic sin have paid the wages of their Adamic sins, so, on given another short at life by God because of the grace from Jesus ransom sacrifice for Adamic sin, Since they have not heard about Jesus and the ransom and as such can not call on him to be seved the are given the opurtunity.

How can they call on some one they have not heard of and neither have they been told about Jesus, as such this fundamental basis for judgement has not been applied to them, how then and on what basis are they being judged and condemned forever?

Is it different strokes for different folks? No.

So, their coming out is to be given the opurtunity to call on Jesus/Yahweh to be seved just as we have the opurtunity today to call or to reject Jesus applied ransom sacrifice since that is the only name that all men must call to get away saved and they have died without the opurtunity to hear about this name, this seed of Abraham by whose means "all the world will seved themselves".

All alive must hear about the christ befor the end will come unless they refused it:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a "witness" unto all nations; and then shall the end come. " (Matthew 24:14).
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So also those that have died without hearing about it must be given equal opurtunity like we today, Yahweh's perfect sense of justice demands it.

So, the dead on coming out have paid for Adamic sin already as the wages of sin demands, as such they resurrect on a clean slate, Adamic sin is a by gone thing:

"For he that has died is freed from sin." (Romans 6:7).
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Some translation uses "acquitted from their sins".

That ^^^^^ fundamental principles is what baptism is fashion after.

So, this resurected ones will be taught/told the way forward from the scrolls that will be open just as people are being taught today which their response serves as judgement to their being seved or not on the last day.

equal justice and opurtunity for all.

Yahweh's sense of Justice is perfect indeed.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12).
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Today, all of mankind are befor God who takes note of every individuals response to the message about the christ, as to survival or to destruction on the last day.

Such is the judgement.
Peace

Very well explained.

Image123: tislight
you're getting my attention at last, learning to speak for yourself. I'll respond in due time please.

your write up is usually contradictory and unusually long.

Sometimes you dont even address the issues straight forward but go in circles.

I hope that will change.

TroGunn:

Very well explained.

i hope they see this beautiful truth of God's word and plans.
Peace

truthislight:

the case of samuel is a deceit from satan and his Demons.

That is why Yahweh commanded that those witches that satan use to deceive people should be sent out of Israel.

Saul did not see samuel with his eyes but depended on what the witch have to tell him and that is how and where satan play his tricks.

While samuel was alive he refuse to see Saul till he died.

God told him that he has rejected Saul and as such he samuel cannot go to Saul or passed any message to Saul.

Yahweh was no longer talking or having dealing with Saul.

Is it possible tha when Saul died he decided to disobey God? No.

Will God decide to start dealing with Saul after samuel has died and state using samuel at death? No.

Will Yahweh pass through a spirit medium that he has had chased and killed in Israel to pass a message to a rejected Saul? No.

Will a spirit medium be able to consult Yahweh? No.

Will Yahweh talk to the rejected Saul through a spirit medium? No.

So, from the fore going, is it true that the character that the medium described/brought forth was the dead samuel?
Judge for yourself.

Satan is behind the immortality of the soul doctrine and he and is Demons uses spirit medium to also spread it.

The dead are silent. Psalm 115:17.
Peace

True.