Good evening all,

I have given this some thought and frankly, I said a prayer too because if we get this wrong, we might just be endorsing a wrong if incorrect. I will suggest we go through the scripture reference below prayerfully.

Matthew 15:16-19 (KJV)

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

We can see that fornication and Adultery were put side by side by Jesus himself when he was trying to explain a parable to the Apostles. Jesus taught that those things e.g fornication and adultery make a man unclean. The fact that fornication is sinful is not in question from the above. The questions however are:
a) what is fornication? b) what is adultery?

I do not think that fornication and adultery have the same meaning. If they do then Jesus will just be repeating himself and I do not subscribe to Okey's definition or explanation also.

Let's think about this and allow the spirit guide us.

#this really is the problem with personal interpretations.

Ishilove:
Sex between two unmarried people.

Okay, where and how do you come to that definition please?

striktlymi:

The above is an interesting thought and assuming I don't know any better, I would have believed you. Anyways, I know enough to say the above is unchristian.

'Gbam' is razz and cliche, so I'll use

Bullseye!!

A thousand likes, striktlymi ma niqqa

Goshen360:

Okay, where and how do you come to that definition please?

From the Oxford online dictionary!

@OP,
Who told you sex is a sin? Far from it. Sex is not a sin at all as God created it for pleasure and procreation between a man and his wife.
That is why you hear the word bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Gen 2:24

The cleaving or joining that makes them one flesh is consummated in the sexual union.

The union of marriage is usually best honoured by the father or other parent conceeding their daughter to the man. If you read many OT scriptures you will see this clearly stated. Hence it is usually important for this to occur.

God places high honour on the marital bed so we see in

Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; [t]but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.Hebrews 13:4

Who are the fornicators?

2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn
I Cor 7:2,9

It is obvious that any sexual encounter between a man and woman outside marriage is a sin and will be judged. Never undermine this please.

What about adultery?

But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband! Ezekiel 16:32

Anyone that has sex with anyone apart from his spouse whether spouse-permissive or not is an adulterer.
This is a sin against the Almighty God and not just against the husband.

Therefore, sex is not a sin. But any sex outside of marriage is. May the Holy Spirit complete the rest in you.
Peace.

@ striktlymi and everyone,

Let's not look at the definition or meaning of 'fornication' from the 'religious' definition. I've lived all my Christian life with that same 'religious' definition of fornication. Like you, striktlymi said and I don't wan't to endorse anything immoral also. The question still unanswered by you all is - what is biblical meaning of 'fornication'.

Okay, the church or religious setting told us fornication is s.ex between unmarried people or Christian BUT when I did a word study, that's nothing like that. Everywhere you find the word 'fornication' in the bible, it doesn't mean s.ex between two unmarried people or Christians. We might be looking at 'fornication' from a religious angle without knowing. All I'm saying is somebody should give us a definition of 'fornication' other than the biblical meaning. When somebody say something, you have to examine it first before you crucify that person.

Ishilove:
From the Oxford online dictionary!

Okay, same dictionary defined homose.xual marriage as the union of two same-s.ex partners. Do you also agree with that?

Goshen360: @ striktlymi and everyone,

Let's not look at the definition or meaning of 'fornication' from the 'religious' definition. The question still unanswered by you all is - what is biblical meaning of 'fornication'.

All I'm saying is somebody should give us a definition of 'fornication' other than the biblical meaning.

What exactly do you want?

Snowwy:

What exactly do you want?

You said 'fornication' means s.ex between unmarried people? How and where did you get that definition? That's all I want sir

Wow ! Smh....

Goshen360:

You said 'fornication' means s.ex between unmarried people? How and where did you get that definition? That's all I want sir

Really? Where did I say that?
Please quote me because I am not sure I remember saying that?

Snowwy:

Really? Where did I say that?
Please quote me because I am not sure I remember saying that?

Okay! Sorry I misquoted you. Okay, I'm sorry. What is 'fornication'? Whatever is your definition, kindly tell us how you come to such definitions.

striktlymi:
We can see that fornication and Adultery were put side by side by Jesus himself when he was trying to explain a parable to the Apostles. Jesus taught that those things e.g fornication and adultery make a man unclean. The fact that fornication is sinful is not in question from the above. The questions however are:
a) what is fornication? b) what is adultery?

I do not think that fornication and adultery have the same meaning. If they do then Jesus will just be repeating himself and I do not subscribe to Okey's definition or explanation also.

You are just playing with words here. Fornication is s.exual-immorality that covers all ranges of s.exual activity, adultery s.exual-immorality defined withing marriage, so that way we can say fornication encompasses adultery too. Only difference is that adultery is specific and unambiguous.

What part of my definition of fornication don't you agree with? I said it is: either unnatural s.ex or illegal\non-consensual s.ex of which adultery falls within this definition.

WAM?:
Wow ! Smh....

Okay my sister. Welcome. You and I have talked before right? Okay, aside of the meaning of 'fornication' the 'religious' setting had taught us, kindly get a concordance and find the meaning to the word. Abeg no shake head o. I'm simply asking you to do what I did.

okeyxyz,

You see, like you told me in the email to get all biblical study materials I can to find the meaning to the word 'fornication' which I did. The problem with our people, church people is, many of them will just say "you're wrong, and they're right PERIOD" without even going to examine or find the biblical meaning in its original context. The mind is so sealed that when they hear 'fornication' they take it the other way.

Again, we do not teach ILLICIT S.EX but nowhere does 'fornication' mean s.ex between two unmarried people. Go find out for yourself and understand the truth - fornication means illicit/non-consensual s.ex. Find out yourself! I don tire for all these argument joor.

Goshen360:

Okay! Sorry I misquoted you. Okay, I'm sorry. What is 'fornication'? Whatever is your definition, kindly tell us how you come to such definitions.

Goshen, re-read my entire post to the OP and see the context fornication was used in the BIBLE verses. No, I will not 'define' it, let the bible do that afterall you have always been someone who claimed to follow the bible and disregard 'religious' teaching.
So let's leave aside 'religious' or 'dictionary' definitions.


I am still wondering why you will say that you want a 'definition of 'fornication' other than the biblical meaning'.

okeyxyz:

You are just playing with words here. Fornication is s.exual-immorality that covers all ranges of s.exual activity, adultery s.exual-immorality defined withing marriage, so that way we can say fornication encompasses adultery too. Only difference is that adultery is specific and unambiguous.

What part of my definition of fornication don't you agree with? I said it is: either unnatural s.ex or illegal\non-consensual s.ex of which adultery falls within this definition.

Good evening Okey,

Was Jesus playing with words when he said this:

Matthew 15:16-19 (KJV)

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

I really do not know your definition of unnatural s*x but for me when one says non-consensual s*x that suggests r.ape and not fornication.

Goshen360:

Okay my sister. Welcome. You and I have talked before right? Okay, aside of the meaning of 'fornication' the 'religious' setting had taught us, kindly get a concordance and find the meaning to the word. Abeg no shake head o. I'm simply asking you to do what I did.

Can one find the meaning of fornication in concordance?

@Goshen,
Something that will help you, I will advise you not to label people as religious because they give their own opinion. You are doing exactly what you claim 'religious' people do. I also wonder why you claim people are 'crucifying'.
I am even amazed at the coolness of the thread.
Since you have now gained some new wisdom, you need to explain that in light of th scripture which I can see you are hereby looking for another definition for.

striktlymi:

Good evening Okey,

Was Jesus playing with words when he said this:

Matthew 15:16-19 (KJV)

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Bros!! It's like saying murderers and criminals. Does it mean that murderers are not criminals? No! but you are singling out murderers for some specific consideration...

I really do not know your definition of unnatural s*x but for me when one says non-consensual s*x that suggests r.ape and not fornication.

Unnatural s.ex includes: homo\bi-s.exuality, bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, s.exual-idolatry, etc

Snowwy:

Goshen, re-read my entire post to the OP and see the context fornication was used in the BIBLE verses. No, I will not 'define' it, let the bible do that afterall you have always been someone who claimed to follow the bible and disregard 'religious' teaching.
So let's leave aside 'religious' or 'dictionary' definitions.


I am still wondering why you will say that you want a 'definition of 'fornication' other than the biblical meaning'.

My brother, I just read your post to the OP again. You only quoted scriptures and said fornication is ANY s.ex outside marriage. Okay. In every CONTEXT of 'fornication' in the Bible, it doesn't mean ANY s.ex outside of marriage. See, you have assignment to do - Get a concordance and bible dictionary, get the meaning IN ALL CONTEXT as used in scriptures. It doesn't say it means s.ex outside of marriage.

It simply means the same things in ALL context of biblical usage. If you understand the real meaning, you will leave the bible word as it is. When I said definition to fornication, I do not mean circular dictionary but with biblical study aids such as Strong's concordance and bible dictionaries. When you get the meaning from biblical study aids, then look up the meaning of 'illicit', that's all.

striktlymi:

Can one find the meaning of fornication in concordance?

Yes you can. I did it all through the night. I checked every occurrence of 'fornication' as used in scriptures. Go do the same. I can give you online concordance if you want.

okeyxyz:

Bros!! It's like saying murderers and criminals. Does it mean that murderers are not criminals? No! but you are singling out murderers for some specific consideration...


Unnatural s.ex includes: homo\bi-s.exuality, bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, s.exual-idolatry, etc

Now you are playing with words!

@all, let's also meditate on this:

Galatians 5:18-22
King James Version (KJV)
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Still used together.

@Okey, If I am to choose between your explanation and what is written in sacred scriptures, I prefer to go with sacred scriptures.


Thank you!

Goshen360: okeyxyz,

You see, like you told me in the email to get all biblical study materials I can to find the meaning to the word 'fornication' which I did. The problem with our people, church people is, many of them will just say "you're wrong, and they're right PERIOD" without even going to examine or find the biblical meaning in its original context. The mind is so sealed that when they hear 'fornication' they take it the other way.

People's mindsets are still trapped in the religious definitions of morality. This is a mindset passed-down to us by the catholic church. The other churches may not believe in the virgin mary and the supremacy of the pope, but their value systems are still the same. Like abstinence from s.ex being regarded as "Holy", therefore catholics priests are called "Holy father" and the pope is "His Holiness!!". But by and large, these human values are all derivatives of the Laws of Moses.

Snowwy: @Goshen,
Something that will help you, I will advise you not to label people as religious because they give their own opinion. You are doing exactly what you claim 'religious' people do. I also wonder why you claim people are 'crucifying'.
I am even amazed at the coolness of the thread.
Since you have now gained some new wisdom, you need to explain that in light of th scripture which I can see you are hereby looking for another definition for.

Okay brother. You know I will always apologize for any misuse of words in the course of our discussion. I'm sorry for the 'religious' name calling. Well, I'm NOT sanctioning illicit se.x here - let that be very clear. I'm only saying NOWHERE does the meaning of 'fornication' in ANY CONTEXTUAL usage mean s.ex between unmarried people. All I expected you to do is, take a little time like 2-3 hours. If you have Strong's concordance and look up every occurrence of the word 'fornication' and then come back to tell us what you found out.

Here is Online Bible Strong's concordance and dictionary: http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm

Get all the usage and see if fornication means s.ex between two unmarried people. Again, an unmarried person can commit sexual immorality - that's if it involves illicit or unlawful s.ex perhaps involving prosti.tution and harlot. etc

okeyxyz:

People's mindsets are still trapped in the religious definitions of morality. This is a mindset passed-down to us by the catholic church. The other churches may not believe in the virgin mary and the supremacy of the pope, but their value systems are still the same. Like abstinence from s.ex being regarded as "Holy", therefore catholics priests are called "Holy father" and the pope is "His Holiness!!". But by and large, these human values are all derivatives of the Laws of Moses.

Okey you just committed the fallacy of distraction. That is, you have failed to prove the conclusion with irrelevant evidence, like emotion.

What has Catholicism got to do with defining fornication in line with sacred scriptures?

If you want to start bashing instead of focusing on the discuss then let me know and I will gladly leave this thread.

striktlymi:

Now you are playing with words!

@all, let's also meditate on this:

Galatians 5:18-22
King James Version (KJV)
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Still used together.

@Okey, If I am to choose between your explanation and what is written in sacred scriptures, I prefer to go with sacred scriptures.


Thank you!

My brother, I won't like you dance around words just because they are used after one another. They mean different things. Lemme pull the different bible meanings as used in that verse for you and all and I will provide the link how I got the meaning to each words.

Goshen360:

My brother, I won't like you dance around words just because they are used after one another. They mean different things. Lemme pull the different bible meanings as used in that verse for you and all and I will provide the link how I got the meaning to each words.

I wonder why you decided to use such words? It seems your mind is made up about accepting this okey business.

I believe we are getting emotional now and it is certainly not good for a sound discuss.


Enjoy your thread guys.

@ striklymi and all,

First, this link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gal&c=5&v=18&t=KJV#18 opens that scriptures in Galatians.

2. This link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gal&c=5&v=18&t=KJV#conc/19 opens the Strong's concordance and dictionary meaning for word study.

3. This link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3430&t=KJV opens meaning to the word 'adultery'

4. This link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4202&t=KJV opens the meaning to the word 'fornication' - nowhere does it is s.ex between unmarried people. It simply says 'illicit se.xual intercourse'. However, an unmarried person can commit 'illicit se.xual' sin which simple can mean unlawful s.exual intercourse.

okeyxyz:

This passage is packed with wisdom. To start with: Why was there an issue of fornication in the first place if not that the gospel itself preached s.exual liberty? But because of the misuse of s.exual liberty with christians feeling that liberty means you have a right to another man's wife or betrothed, therefore causing conflicts. Paul's advice was that each man should have his wife and each woman her husband if they cannot bear to share their woman\man. Remember that he started with "it is good for a man not to touch a woman(1 Cor 7:1)" but because of how we use language, society has misinterpreted "touch" to mean s.exual contact. But no, "touch"(check your bible dictionaries) in this case means to possess or to own a woman for yourself, therefore denying others access to her(because of jealousy). Paul CANNOT possibly be telling these guys not to have s.ex!! Likewise he said to the widows and the unmarried that it is good they do not marry, but if they cannot have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to "burn with passion"(1 cor 7:9 ). Again here, he's not using "burn with [passion]" to mean s.ex, but the jealousy that arises from letting others have access to your woman\man.

We know(or believe) that the apostles were never married, thus the manner of paul's advice to christians that he wished that everybody were to be like him(unmarried), But I cannot possibly believe that these apostles went without s.ex, NO!! I DON'T BELIEVE SO. How can Paul tell people to go without s.ex?? He simply advised them to go without marriage, but if you cannot contain your emotions\jealousy, then please go ahead and marry.

This is a hard nut to crack o. Somehow, I can't discard this completely, hence I will look into it further.

Are u saying Paul picks any sister that catches his fancy when he feels the need to have sex?

If I may ask...what did Jesus n Paul meant by Enuchs?

I would see pre-marital se.x as se.x between 2 consenting adults that have a form of commitment between them.

striktlymi:

I wonder why you decided to use such words? It seems your mind is made up about accepting this okey business.

I believe we are getting emotional now and it is certainly not good for a sound discuss.


Enjoy your thread guys.

Noooooo, I want you in this thread. I said that and I gave reason - you're saying because the two words were used together again like that of the words of Jesus Christ. And I said, don't dance around words simply because they're used side-by-side. That is not too big to offend you my brother. Except you made up your mind to leave anyway, I can't force you though. But I don't want you to leave.

okeyxyz:

What part of my definition of fornication don't you agree with? I said it is: either unnatural s.ex or illegal\non-consensual s.ex of which adultery falls within this definition.

Unnatural se.x : homosexuality?

Illegal se.x : se.x with anoda's wife or husband?

Non-consensual se.x : Rape?